Magic Initiate Shenanigans

[8wGremlin]

It has been pointed out in another forum, that Magic Initiate (MI) works differently for some classes. It stems from this tweet - https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/637669202036322304

Basically due to the wording of the classes access to spells and how they cast them the following classes can use the spell they know from MI using their own slots.


Bard
Eldritch Knight
Arcane Trickster
Ranger (PHB and UA versions)


How can this be utilised more efficiently and are there any interesting aspects?

Magic Initiate (warlock): for Hex now seems good.

(thank you TenaciousJ)

[Fishyninja]

I cant remember if it was here or on Reddit but I heard that using it with a Monk for Shillelagh, Goodberry and Create Flame would be handy.

I.e. All simple wooden weapons (which are predominately monk weapons) become magic in nature, Goodberry for constant healing (More health is always good) and create flame is handy situationally and in combat.

Therefore you always have a character who can feed themselves and keep themselves warm and have a constant supply to magic weaponry making loot sharing easier.

[8wGremlin]

I cant remember if it was here or on Reddit but I heard that using it with a Monk for Shillelagh, Goodberry and Create Flame would be handy.

I.e. All simple wooden weapons (which are predominately monk weapons) become magic in nature, Goodberry for constant healing (More health is always good) and create flame is handy situationally and in combat.

Therefore you always have a character who can feed themselves and keep themselves warm and have a constant supply to magic weaponry making loot sharing easier.

Are you saying that Monk: Way of the elements could use KI to cast these spells?
- Can we get a citation?
- How do you know how much Ki they cost?

[Fishyninja]

Are you saying that Monk: Way of the elements could use KI to cast these spells?
- Can we get a citation?
- How do you know how much Ki they cost?

Ki is not needed, this is to power the monk abilities not magic. Magic Initiate states:

"Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class’s spell list.
In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again.
Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard."

I obtained this description from http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Feats

Also as you are a Monk and use Wis you would be best suited for Wis based Characters, i.e. Clerics or Druids.

Druid Canrtrips are as follows:
Druidcraft (transmutation)
Guidance (divination)
Mending (transmutation)
Poison Spray (conjuration)
Produce Flame (conjuration)
Resistance (abjuration)
Shillelagh (transmutation)
Thorn Whip (transmutation)
and the first level spell would be Goodberry however these otpions are available:
Animal Friendship (enchantment)
Charm Person (enchantment)
Create or Destroy Water (transmutation)
Cure Wounds (evocation)
Detect Magic* (divination)
Detect Poison and Disease* (divination)
Entangle (conjuration)
Faerie Fire (evocation)
Fog Cloud (conjuration)
Goodberry (transmutation)
Healing Word (evocation)
Jump (transmutation)
Longstrider (transmutation)
Purify Food and Drink* (transmutation)
Speak with Animals* (divination)
Thunderwave (evocation)
Obviously the spells come from the D&D 5E spell list.

I hope this helps.

[gfishfunk]

It would not be using Ki to cast it, those cantrips and spells would be from magic initiate. However, you can re-fluff or re-flavor Magic Initiate to be Ki-based.

Its more a 'good combo' than an interesting interaction between Ki and Magic Initiate.

The Crawford tweet suggests (RAI) that spellcasting is different for EK Fighters and Wizards based on the language used to describe how spell casting works, and how Magic Initiate is worded. It is (imo) poorly thought out and takes the literal reading instead of a common sense reading.

I don't believe his tweet interacts with Monk at all because the spells and Ki cost are very specifically laid out.

[Fishyninja]

It would not be using Ki to cast it, those cantrips and spells would be from magic initiate. However, you can re-fluff or re-flavor Magic Initiate to be Ki-based.

Its more a 'good combo' than an interesting interaction between Ki and Magic Initiate.

The Crawford tweet suggests (RAI) that spellcasting is different for EK Fighters and Wizards based on the language used to describe how spell casting works, and how Magic Initiate is worded. It is (imo) poorly thought out and takes the literal reading instead of a common sense reading.

I don't believe his tweet interacts with Monk at all because the spells and Ki cost are very specifically laid out.

You are correct in regards to the tweet, that's why I thought it would be interesting as Monks are considered Martial in Nature, have a magic element (Ki) and yet are not spellcasters.

[gfishfunk]

You are correct in regards to the tweet, that's why I thought it would be interesting as Monks are considered Martial in Nature, have a magic element (Ki) and yet are not spellcasters.

Right. And I would like to see how the Monk Ki casting feature is worded. It is possible that it says 'you may cast spells you know' but then there is no cost associated with spells learned by the magic initiate feat, thus you are (by the literal word) able to cast them using ki, but there is no associated cost.

As I said before, this is not a good RAI interpretation. Any interpretation that forces you to read the PHB or DMG as a set of statutes with possible loopholes is a bad interpretation (imo). Not attacking for here, just not satisfied with that RAI.

[Fishyninja]

Right. And I would like to see how the Monk Ki casting feature is worded. It is possible that it says 'you may cast spells you know' but then there is no cost associated with spells learned by the magic initiate feat, thus you are (by the literal word) able to cast them using ki, but there is no associated cost.

As I said before, this is not a good RAI interpretation. Any interpretation that forces you to read the PHB or DMG as a set of statutes with possible loopholes is a bad interpretation (imo). Not attacking for here, just not satisfied with that RAI.

Not a problem, happy to clarify (hell I could be reading it wrong).
On page 76 of the PHB it states:

The Magic of Ki
Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki. This energy is an element
of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies. Monks
harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies' physical capabilities,
and some of their special attacks can hinder the flow of ki in their opponents. Using this energy, monks channel
uncanny speed and strength into their unarmed strikes. As they gain experience, their martial training and their
mastery of ki gives them more power over their bodies and the bodies of their foes.

Then later on page 78 it states:

Ki
Starting at 2nd level, your training allows you to harness the mystic energy of ki. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of ki points. Your monk level determines the number of points you have,
as shown in the Ki Points column of the Monk table. You can spend these points to fuel various ki features.
You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more
ki features as you gain levels in this class.
When you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you
draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest meditating to
regain your ki points. Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows: Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus +
your Wisdom modifier

Now the parts I have emboldened, say to me that Ki is solely for the monk abilities learned during their level progression and have nothing to do with spells or arcana etc.
However if a DM wanted to incorporate Ki points into spell use I wouldn't mind jsut generally I think the cantrips and spells gained from Magic Initiate are just that, a few spells learned and nothing tied to the class using it.

[Hrugner]

Is this just the difference between spells known and spells prepared? A wizard can't prepare a magic initiate spell, but a rogue,ranger,fighter,warlock whatever can cast any spell he knows from his spell pool including magic initiate spells. I think that's what he's saying anyway.

[Grubble]

This would make shield or absorb elements a more popular choice I suppose.

[Fishyninja]

Is this just the difference between spells known and spells prepared? A wizard can't prepare a magic initiate spell, but a rogue,ranger,fighter,warlock whatever can cast any spell he knows from his spell pool including magic initiate spells. I think that's what he's saying anyway.

With cantips (as far as I am aware) you fire away as many times as needed, with magic initiate you use the same mechanic as the class spell lsit, so Druid for Druid Spells etc.....I think.

[Talionis]

I've read that this was later debunked and the more specific wording of the feat saying it could only be cast with the one spell slot was controlling. I'd check with my DM. That being said ASIs aren't cheap and we are talking first level spells. We've house ruled this for any caster to be able to use the first level spell with their other slots and it hasn't broken our games.

Warlock is a nice choice with access to the SCAG cantrips and Hex or Armor of Agathys. But it's a nice way to add spells known and not lose caster levels.

[Fishyninja]

I've read that this was later debunked and the more specific wording of the feat saying it could only be cast with the one spell slot was controlling. I'd check with my DM. That being said ASIs aren't cheap and we are talking first level spells. We've house ruled this for any caster to be able to use the first level spell with their other slots and it hasn't broken our games.

Warlock is a nice choice with access to the SCAG cantrips and Hex or Armor of Agathys. But it's a nice way to add spells known and not lose caster levels.

Where did you hear that is debunked? If you don't mind?

[Syll]

I've read that this was later debunked and the more specific wording of the feat saying it could only be cast with the one spell slot was controlling.

I don't think this is correct, namely because:


"Magic initiate: the feat's limit on casting the first level spell applies only to the casting given by this feat"

^ from the phb errata pdf

[Hrugner]

With cantips (as far as I am aware) you fire away as many times as needed, with magic initiate you use the same mechanic as the class spell lsit, so Druid for Druid Spells etc.....I think.

It's clarified in the SA-compendium.
http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf

Essentially you learn the spell as if you learned it for the class you got it from. In the case of cantrips, you're right, they work normally. In the case of the first level spell, you get one casting unless you have the ability to cast spells of that class type already. So an arcane trickster or a eldritch knight can take wizard magic initiate and this will let them know one more first level spell that they can cast from spell slots. A wizard could chose magic initiate and while they know the spell, they still need to scribe it into their spell book in order to prepare it and cast it from slots. A warlock casts any spells known from any source through their magic, so they just get to include that one new spell in their pool. Clerics and druids prepare spells, so taking a cleric or druid magic initiate does nothing special for them. Sorcerer and Bard both know spells and could add the magic initiate spell to their known spells list and cast it from slots.

I think that's how it works anyway.

[Fishyninja]

It's clarified in the SA-compendium.
http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf

Essentially you learn the spell as if you learned it for the class you got it from. In the case of cantrips, you're right, they work normally. In the case of the first level spell, you get one casting unless you have the ability to cast spells of that class type already. So an arcane trickster or a eldritch knight can take wizard magic initiate and this will let them know one more first level spell that they can cast from spell slots. A wizard could chose magic initiate and while they know the spell, they still need to scribe it into their spell book in order to prepare it and cast it from slots. A warlock casts any spells known from any source through their magic, so they just get to include that one new spell in their pool. Clerics and druids prepare spells, so taking a cleric or druid magic initiate does nothing special for them. Sorcerer and Bard both know spells and could add the magic initiate spell to their known spells list and cast it from slots.

I think that's how it works anyway.

Ok but I gave the suggestion of a Monk taking a druid spell now I get they can use Cantrips (hell High Elves can without being spell casters). I think where the confusion is arising, can the Monk use the level 1 spell that is given from Magic Initiate.

It is my belief that they can solely based on the fact that the Magic Initiate Feat has no prerequisites and states that the spells and cantrips are cast based on the ability of the class of spell (I.e. Char for Bard.). So I suggested a Monk take some Druid spells as it is a Wis Based magic, cleric would also work.

[Syll]

Ok but I gave the suggestion of a Monk taking a druid spell now I get they can use Cantrips (hell High Elves can without being spell casters). I think where the confusion is arising, can the Monk use the level 1 spell that is given from Magic Initiate.

It is my belief that they can solely based on the fact that the Magic Initiate Feat has no prerequisites and states that the spells and cantrips are cast based on the ability of the class of spell (I.e. Char for Bard.). So I suggested a Monk take some Druid spells as it is a Wis Based magic, cleric would also work.

If... you're just asking if Monk can use the spell gained by the feat, then yes, 1/long rest as per the feat text.

If you're asking about if you can use KI points from 4elements monk to gain additional castings, well that's something else entirely (and since I pulled out the phb, it's No, because it doesn't give you slots, it says 'you can use x Kit points to cast *specific spell*)

And the OP's post was about what the best 1st level spells to take as a Bard, EK, AT, or Ranger with Magic Initiate, since official ruling is that they can use that 1st level spell gained with their own spell slots.

[Fishyninja]

If... you're just asking if Monk can use the spell gained by the feat, then yes, 1/long rest as per the feat text.

I was actually trying to clarify for someone else, but yes that is how I read it myself. Thank you :smallsmile:.

The example I gave earlier was a Monk using the Druid spells to gain Produce Flame, Shillaleigh an Goodberry, that way you have a character that will always have a magical weapon, can produce fire for use and attack (as well as the other spell casters) and can always find healing objects.

[Syll]

It has been pointed out in another forum, that Magic Initiate (MI) works differently for some classes. It stems from this tweet - https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/637669202036322304

Basically due to the wording of the classes access to spells and how they cast them the following classes can use the spell they know from MI using their own slots.


Bard
Eldritch Knight
Arcane Trickster
Ranger (PHB and UA versions)


How can this be utilised more efficiently and are there any interesting aspects?

Magic Initiate (warlock): for Hex now seems good.

(thank you TenaciousJ)
Well, for starters I'm really disappointed that PLD got excluded from this (All I want is a Vengeance PLD with Hellish Rebuke, is that so wrong?)

I really, really like the flavor of the Warlock's spell list, but not so much the mechanics of their spell casting. When this ruling came out I had a thought about doing Fighter 1/ Lore Bard 19, using Booming blade for Melee, and Eldritch blast for range, and using the 1st level spell and Lore Bard's stolen spells to snipe those Warlock specific spells to make a proper full caster with that style of magic.

As I write this though, I suppose with the ruling being as it is, you could potentially dip bard (and thus their spell casting wording) to get the ability to use the magic initiate 1st level spell with your slots, for any other class too. I'm not sure how I would build that out exactly, but could be promising..

[Toofey]

I'm sorry, but why couldn't a cleric use their other spell slots if they took MI Druid and (oh say) thunderwave for their first level spell?

[Syll]

I'm sorry, but why couldn't a cleric use their other spell slots if they took MI Druid and (oh say) thunderwave for their first level spell?

Because as much as I disagree with it, the ruling in Sage Advice compendium says so. It parses the words in (for example) the cleric class features that say "You prepare the list of Cleric spells available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list"

If you compare this to bard "The Bard table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level or higher. To cast one of these spells you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher"

So as stupid as I think it is, the SA compendium, and an additional tweet from Crawford said you can only use slots for the MI spell if your class feature doesn't call them out as class specific slots (or if you use MI to pick a spell off your own class list)

The classes that don't call out their slots as class specific are Bard, Ranger, EK, and AT

Edit: IF however, you choose to disregard Sage Advice (as indeed, Sage Advice recommends if it is interfering with your table's play) Then the PHB Errata specifies that you can use your spell slots with MI

[Sicarius Victis]

Now I kind of want to play an EK combining Divine Favour and Extra Attacks/Action Surge for large amounts of sustained damage.

[Toofey]

If the PHB errata specifies it's possible and SA says it's not doesn't the errata win by being more official if we're looking to authority to answer the question?

[Syll]

If the PHB errata specifies it's possible and SA says it's not doesn't the errata win by being more official if we're looking to authority to answer the question?

The SA isn't contradictory; it's just more restrictive.


Official rulings on how to interpret unclear rules are made in Sage Advice. The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. One exception: the game’s rules manager, Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford), can make official rulings and usually does so in Sage Advice and on Twitter.

So whereas PHB errata says:


Magic Initiate (p. 168).
The feat’s limit on casting the 1st-level spell applies only to the casting given by the feat.

The SA Compendium goes on to say:

If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-
level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat?

Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare.
In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.

Although I emphasize, I think Crawford ruling it this way is asinine.

[Sicarius Victis]

Although I emphasize, I think Crawford ruling it this way is asinine.

Yeah, it's somewhat stupid. Unless, of course, they planned it that way from the beginning and specifically wrote up the classes' spellcasting the way they did just for that purpose. Which, of course, is likely giving them far too much credit.

However, since it's official, I will not turn down the option of using it that way. I'm not usually a minmaxer, but there are far too many interesting possibilities to ignore here.