Creating A Goth Demigoddess

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey everybody I just thought of an idea for creating a goth demigoddess. Her name is Gothika. She's a True Neutral Female Drow Rogue. She was born with mortal Drow parents. She represent the power of Goth. She worship all goth by any races but mostly Drow. She have good relationship with the Elves Pantheon. She even have good relationship with Elistraee. She hate the Drow Pantheon. So what do you think? Any comments or suggestion of Gothika?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Hi my name is Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way and I have long ebony black hair (that's how I got my name) with purple streaks and red tips that reaches my mid-back and icy blue eyes like limpid tears and a lot of people tell me I look like Amy Lee (AN: if u don't know who she is get da hell out of here!).



Okay no but seriously, what's "the power of Goth"? I assume you mean the modern usage, a counterculture focusing on an aesthetic normally considered dreary and negative without any particular political leanings? Is she a representation of a particular form of self-expression and philosophy, basically? How did she come to be a demigoddess? I mean this is apparently Forgotten Realms and that status gets handed out like candy, but I mean what deeds or characteristics pushed her beyond mortal expression of heavy makeup? What are her goals and agendas? I gather that she would represent one of the numerous rebel factions against the drow theocracy which, you know, if you're going to have 20th century teenagers in a medieval D&D setting all dressed in black and body jewelry than yeah it's probably going to be younger drow. Or maybe someone to do with Netheril. I'm just saying, describe your idea in words other than "goth".

[Pronounceable]

So what do you think? Any comments or suggestion of Gothika?
My comment is this isn't very good.
My suggestion is to try again with less teenage, gothery, fanfiction, staleness and pointlessness in it.

[Bartmanhomer]

My comment is this isn't very good.
My suggestion is to try again with less teenage, gothery, fanfiction, staleness and pointlessness in it.

OK I understand.

[Bartmanhomer]

Hi my name is Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way and I have long ebony black hair (that's how I got my name) with purple streaks and red tips that reaches my mid-back and icy blue eyes like limpid tears and a lot of people tell me I look like Amy Lee (AN: if u don't know who she is get da hell out of here!).



Okay no but seriously, what's "the power of Goth"? I assume you mean the modern usage, a counterculture focusing on an aesthetic normally considered dreary and negative without any particular political leanings? Is she a representation of a particular form of self-expression and philosophy, basically? How did she come to be a demigoddess? I mean this is apparently Forgotten Realms and that status gets handed out like candy, but I mean what deeds or characteristics pushed her beyond mortal expression of heavy makeup? What are her goals and agendas? I gather that she would represent one of the numerous rebel factions against the drow theocracy which, you know, if you're going to have 20th century teenagers in a medieval D&D setting all dressed in black and body jewelry than yeah it's probably going to be younger drow. Or maybe someone to do with Netheril. I'm just saying, describe your idea in words other than "goth".

Well she represent the power of Darkness. Also she's an adult not a teenager.

[Nerd-o-rama]

There are. A lot. Of Darkness-themed deities already. Most of them either worshipped by or acknowledged by the drow, because they live in the Underdark. Full-time. Darkness is literally their default state of being, physically, without even getting into any connotations of the word. I'm just thinking that a demigoddess should have something a little more specific in her being to make her stand out from the fact that it is literally dark literally all the time.

[Bartmanhomer]

There are. A lot. Of Darkness-themed deities already. Most of them either worshipped by or acknowledged by the drow, because they live in the Underdark. Full-time. Darkness is literally their default state of being, physically, without even getting into any connotations of the word. I'm just thinking that a demigoddess should have something a little more specific in her being to make her stand out from the fact that it is literally dark literally all the time.

OK that understandable. Gee this is a lot tougher than I thought. :frown:

[Marlowe]

You're talking about having a singular goddess for a subculture that most members deny having anything to do with and which has so many different facets that its more a culture of cultures than anything simple.

Anyway, I don't think most goths would follow anyone calling themselves a goddess of goths. Smacks of taking the whole thing entirely too seriously.

[John Longarrow]

If she's supposed to be the demigoddess of "Darkness", did she get Ozzy Osbourne's permission first?

[Deliverance]

Any comments or suggestion of Gothika?
Depends. Visigoth or Ostrogoth?

EDIT:
Joking apart, from your description in the OP, it is hard not to be reminded of Haley as Dark Mistress Shadowgale in the teenage wasteland of the mind from OOTS #93 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html). Surely the drow already have deities with more purpose to worship?

[Bartmanhomer]

Depends. Visigoth or Ostrogoth?

What is a Visigoth and Ostrogoth.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Like, just continuing my thought from earlier, FR has the Greater Deity Shar (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shar). She is the Goddess of Darkness. Any Darkness. All the Darkness. If there is a space without light in it, it's technically Shar's domain. There's a number of not-as-big deities with domain over specific kinds of darkness - Kurtulmak is a god of caverns, I believe, most of the drow pantheon represent creatures that live and thrive in darkness, etc. Once you get down to demigod level you need a lot of specialization to not have the big boys and girls come down on you with the bootheel of Divine Copyright Infringement.

[Yukitsu]

What is a Visigoth and Ostrogoth.

An angry German that doesn't like Rome but wants to live there.

[Bartmanhomer]

Like, just continuing my thought from earlier, FR has the Greater Deity Shar (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shar). She is the Goddess of Darkness. Any Darkness. All the Darkness. If there is a space without light in it, it's technically Shar's domain. There's a number of not-as-big deities with domain over specific kinds of darkness - Kurtulmak is a god of caverns, I believe, most of the drow pantheon represent creatures that live and thrive in darkness, etc. Once you get down to demigod level you need a lot of specialization to not have the big boys and girls come down on you with the bootheel of Divine Copyright Infringement.

Maybe she should a demigoddess of the Gothic subculture.

[Marlowe]

Ostrogoths and Visigoths.

Two of the major divisions of the East Germanic tribes that threatened and eventually overran the Roman Empire in a
series of wars, partitions, and migrations across the 4th and 6th centuries. The Visigoths (the name is subject to some debate as to meaning) were the largest group, with smaller tribes being the Gepids ("slow" Goths, so-called because they were one of the last to leave Sweden for the European mainland), Heruls, and Vandals.

The Visi, having established a state in what's now the western Ukraine, were forced to migrate into the Roman Empire due to a combination of complicated factors, destroyed the Eastern Roman army at Adrianople in 378, kept moving west, sacked Rome itself in 410, established a kingdom in what is now France, defeated the Huns in 455, but were ultimately pressed by slower-moving but more numerous western German tribes like the Franks and Burgundians into Spain, where their kingdom lasted until the 8th century.

The Ostros were apparently less numerous and more horsey, and are spoken of as having a kingdom spanning much of European Russia around the 3rd century AD. Like the Visi they were forced to move west, participated at Adrianapole but were later forced to become part of Attila the Huns empire along with the Gepids. After Attila's death they followed the lead of the Gepids in revolting against the Huns, who were soundly beaten and forced to become the Bulgarians. The Ostrogoths subsequently moved into Italy where they established a kingdom, but in the middle of the 6th century were almost genocided in the so-called "Gothic War" by the East Romans and their allies, along with much of the Italian population of Italy. Their defeat led to a massive power vacuum and the subsequent invasion of Italy by the Lombards.

The Swiss and the Austrians occasionally have arguments as to which of them are the real descendants of the Ostros, while the Visi became part of the gene pool and cultural mix that is medieval Spain.

[Coidzor]

Kiaransalee is already goff enough.

A gender flip so Shelyn ended up the darkness deity instead of what's-his-face would work too.

[Deliverance]

What is a Visigoth and Ostrogoth.
The two major branches of Goths. They were the western and the eastern Goths and their influence on world history was significant. Frankly, if you want to create a Gothic demigoddes, studying the doings of the Gothic tribes will provide you with lots of material that lends itself to creating interesting deities that are also rather more specific than Gothic Gothica, the Goth's Goth, who represents the power of Goth.

On the other hand, if your entire playing group consists of people who for whatever reason consider the modern Goth subculture fun/interesting/cool, you should ignore me and other naysayers. Since you consider it cool enough to ask about help with this without being able to specify to people outside the subculture exactly why any of this is interesting and what it is that differentiates your Gothica from any number of other dark-themed deities in the Forgotten Realms, it is entirely possible that they do too and think that the power of Goth rocks, whatever it is.

But if you DO have people in the playing group who are not interested in the Goth subculture, you probably need something much better than your opening position.

Explaining why a place like the Forgotten Realms would have a widespread Goth subculture with adherents of all races in the first place would be a good place to start. :smallbiggrin:

[Marlowe]

Serious question for the OP; what exactly do you think "goths" are and what are they interested in?

[Bartmanhomer]

Serious question for the OP; what exactly do you think "goths" are and what are they interested in?

Well goth wear black and they're interested of their Gothic subculture.

[JoshuaZ]

Well goth wear black and they're interested of their Gothic subculture.

And you would expect such a subculture to exist in Forgotten Realms, why exactly?

[Marlowe]

Well goth wear black and they're interested of their Gothic subculture. Goths wear all sorts of colors, and what do you think is the "Gothic subculture?"


And you would expect such a subculture to exist in Forgotten Realms, why exactly? And that's a very good question. Because "Goth" is a product of modern industrial civilization. Some Goths appear to take their inspiration from futurism while other takes theirs from fashions and styles of past eras, by there's the common factor among all of them that we live in a swiftly-changing world. I can't see such a culture developing in FR medieval stasis.

[Bartmanhomer]

Goths wear all sorts of colors, and what do you think is the "Gothic subculture?" Really? I think the subculture is darkness, vampires, negativty, demons, blood.


And you would expect such a subculture to exist in Forgotten Realms, why exactly? Because I thought Drow are the closest to goth. Someone did mention on one of my threads " Goths In 3.5" Drow are somewhat related to goths.

[Marlowe]

Really? I think the subculture is darkness, vampires, negativty, demons, blood.
Going by my Sisters of Mercy albums, it's more like cars, drugs, guns, women, modernist poetry, and wars.

Going by my Bauhaus albums, it's more like poorly-understood dadaist theory.

Going by my Cure albums, it's more like the pain of failed relationships and urban paranoia.

Seriously, Demons?:smallconfused:

[Bartmanhomer]

Going by my Sisters of Mercy albums, it's more like cars, drugs, guns, women, modernist poetry, and wars.

Going by my Bauhaus albums, it's more like poorly-understood dadaist theory.

Going by my Cure albums, it's more like the pain of failed relationships and urban paranoia.

Seriously, Demons?:smallconfused:

OK maybe that's a misconception that Goth worship demons.

[Marlowe]

OK maybe that's a misconception that Goth worship demons.

Maybe??? What are you smoking?

I'll say it again, it is impossible to generalise such a diverse subculture. However, it is my experience that belief in the supernatural is rarer amongst Goths than it is among the broader population.

[Yukitsu]

Going by my Sisters of Mercy albums, it's more like cars, drugs, guns, women, modernist poetry, and wars.

Going by my Bauhaus albums, it's more like poorly-understood dadaist theory.

Going by my Cure albums, it's more like the pain of failed relationships and urban paranoia.

Seriously, Demons?:smallconfused:

As a counter culture, my understanding of the fashion was that it's derived more than anything from Gothic fiction. The sort that itself takes its name from late Medieval castles (hence why some Goth culture and especially Japanese Goth culture features around period dress) and which heavily features loads of blood and supernatural elements. The subculture has largely lost the direct association to that style of fiction but the bases and "core" of it would be around things like vampires, demons, monsters etc. that would appear in those kinds of bloody horror stories of that era as well as clothes that were associated with that era. (Note, I don't believe that most people who started this subculture actually believed in those fictional elements, I believe they liked the aesthetic of the whole package of gothic horror.)

I think they've shifted a lot over the years and have merged somewhat with the emo subculture from the 90s which frankly I think the Cure fits in better.

[JoshuaZ]

It does seem that there is a subset of necromancers and evil mages who dress somewhat "Goth" in many settings, but that seems to be more evil-wears-black sort of thing. Actually, I had a character in an Eberron campaign who was a halfling necromancer who dressed completely the same as other halflings in her community. When the subject came up, she told people that being a necromancer was a profession and a skill set, not a fashion statement. (She did in fact have a spare black robe she kept around for when she needed to meet with other necromancers who expected her to look the part.) This does raise a question: Does Forgotten Realms have any deities who oversee fashion?

[Zanos]

I hope this thread is a joke, otherwise:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/652/918/68a.jpg

http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Ow+the+edge+_57f85f9ea66435df21d95d718e8a249b.jpg

[Bartmanhomer]

Maybe??? What are you smoking?

I'll say it again, it is impossible to generalise such a diverse subculture. However, it is my experience that belief in the supernatural is rarer amongst Goths than it is among the broader population.

I made a mistaken about generalized that all goth worship demons.

[Marlowe]

Technically speaking, it's an outgrowth of punk. With early bands we can use as examples being things like the Sisters, Birthday Party, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus, maybe Joy Division. Vampires and monsters are NOT major lyrical topics for these people. Although Bauhaus did "Bela Lugosi's Dead" and The Damned liked to dress up (because nobody was going to come to their gigs to listen to them). Certainly there are Goths who like that sort of thing, but it's not remotely a core interest.

And most Goths would be distinctly offended at being called Emo. Thank you very much.

[Yukitsu]

Technically speaking, it's an outgrowth of punk. With early bands we can use as examples being things like the Sisters, Birthday Party, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus, maybe Joy Division. Vampires and monsters are NOT major lyrical topics for these people. Although Bauhaus did "Bela Lugosi's Dead" and The Damned liked to dress up (because nobody was going to come to their gigs to listen to them). Certainly there are Goths who like that sort of thing, but it's not remotely a core interest.

And most Goths would be distinctly offended at being called Emo. Thank you very much.

Right, but they got the aesthetic from Gothic horror. The aesthetic for one reason or another is completely different or indifferent to the music as a whole and the aesthetic is firmly derived from a genre filled with vampires, blood and other horror critters. Like, as far as I know (I can't stand their music so it's not a lot of it) but most of their songs don't have much to do with their namesake, it appears that they got the name entirely for aesthetic reasons. In other words, even if the origins are from a type of music, the subculture that developed around it branched out and seems to have adopted more and more of the elements of their namesake before abandoning it and just being anything that's really rather shallow yet related.

I think more than anything, the emo movement drifted more towards trying to be softcore Goths rather than anything the other way around but it still appears that both groups tend to overlap now more than either seems willing to admit to.

[John Longarrow]

So maybe "Gothika" needs the blessing of Jello Biafra instead of Ozzy?

[JoshuaZ]

Right, but they got the aesthetic from Gothic horror. The aesthetic for one reason or another is completely different or indifferent to the music as a whole and the aesthetic is firmly derived from a genre filled with vampires, blood and other horror critters. Like, as far as I know (I can't stand their music so it's not a lot of it) but most of their songs don't have much to do with their namesake, it appears that they got the name entirely for aesthetic reasons. In other words, even if the origins are from a type of music, the subculture that developed around it branched out and seems to have adopted more and more of the elements of their namesake before abandoning it and just being anything that's really rather shallow yet related.


As long as were nitpicking on this, the presence of vampires in Gothic horror is pretty late. Gothic novels were already a popular genre by 1803 when Jane Austen mocked them in Northanger Abby (the central character thinks she's in a Gothic novel) but vampires don't show up until much later after the genre was already going out of favor of being combined with other genres (such as having what we would call science-fiction elements, like Frankenstein). Carmilla is in the 1870s and Varney is in the 1850s, and both of those were more penny dreadful than Gothic novels, a distinction which doesn't matter as much from a modern standpoint but does help from a literary standpoint. It is probably true that people interested in Goth as an aesthetic weren't aware or didn't care about how late vampires were as an aspect of that type of literature, so your basic point is still sound.



I think more than anything, the emo movement drifted more towards trying to be softcore Goths rather than anything the other way around but it still appears that both groups tend to overlap now more than either seems willing to admit to.

Yeah, I once commented in a conversation that Emo was just like Goth but the clothing didn't look as cool and the lyrics were slightly more depressing. That did not go well.

[Marlowe]

"Goth" isn't a label that any of these bands took themselves, it's a label the British music press stuck them with. And seriously, what "aethetic?" Each of these groups had a rather different aesthetic. I can't see what's "Gothic Horror" and leather and dark glasses (Sisters) or white shirts and slacks (Joy Division...and quite a lot of other bands from this era).

You are seriously putting the cart before the horse. Holding up an inaccurate descriptor to a subject and then blaming the subject for not conforming to the inaccuracy.

[Yukitsu]

"Goth" isn't a label that any of these bands took themselves, it's a label the British music press stuck them with. And seriously, what "aethetic?" Each of these groups had a rather different aesthetic. I can't see what's "Gothic Horror" and leather and dark glasses (Sisters) or white shirts and slacks (Joy Division...and quite a lot of other bands from this era).

You are seriously putting the cart before the horse. Holding up an inaccurate descriptor to a subject and then blaming the subject for not conforming to the inaccuracy.

Well, no, looking it up the genre got its name from a song about Dracula from gothic horror but even more so modern Goth includes fashion. You were asking where the association and aesthetic comes from and I'm giving you an answer, the sub-culture didn't just pop up as a few songs and then stagnate, it evolved taking with it a lot of what Gothic literature is, and even the music got its name from that genre of fiction by borrowing from it. (though again I think people started applying that label to songs unrelated to the original context)

Part of looking at sub-cultures is understanding that not only do they evolve and branch radically, but that often the original bit that they originated from didn't do anything to differentiate them from the cultural norm, liking a type of music doesn't make you a goth I'd argue, just like how my brother liking country western doesn't make him a cowboy. Fans of that genre took other elements that were similar, in the original's case, you could say violence and horror, and turned it into a more encompassing lifestyle. The full culture has far, far more than just a few albums, it contains fashion, a philosophy (that isn't coherent as far as I can tell) and certain aesthetic and literary themes that followers seem to prefer or advocate and it's got thousands of sub-groups that differ on any one of those points.

I mean if you think a "goth" person within that subculture is just anyone that likes that kind of music I definitely won't disagree, but I'm just telling you why there are a lot of people in that subculture that will be in a subdivision of the subdivision that does other things in addition to that or even who doesn't care about that.

[Marlowe]

Given you've already admitted you don't listen to the music, why are you even arguing with somebody who HAS when they tell you that you're completely off base?:smallconfused:

What you describe seems far more characteristic of the Heavy Metal scene of the time in question than any of the groups labeled "Goth". And yes, as I said in my FIRST POST in this thread; Goth includes a wide range of microcultures. It's an extremely inclusive subculture, if you can call it that at all. However, "Gothic Horror" simply isn't a huge part of the Gothic aesthetic.

Much of the showier Gothic "look" had already been prefigured by Glam rock, and most people in the early 80s were more concerned with nuclear paranoia, urban decay, the stresses of modern life and other such more immediately threatening matters than they were about vampires and monsters. And indeed, that's what a lot of seminal "Goth" songs were about. The proliferation of cheap "Gothic" fiction that haunts the back shelves of second-hand bookshops today were a product of a somewhat later period.

[Yukitsu]

Given you've already admitted you don't listen to the music, why are you even arguing with somebody who HAS when they tell you that you're completely off base?:smallconfused:

What you describe seems far more characteristic of the Heavy Metal scene of the time in question than any of the groups labeled "Goth". And yes, as I said in my FIRST POST in this thread; Goth includes a wide range of microcultures. It's an extremely inclusive subculture, if you can call it that at all. However, "Gothic Horror" simply isn't a huge part of the Gothic aesthetic.

Much of the showier Gothic "look" had already been prefigured by Glam rock, and most people in the early 80s were more concerned with nuclear paranoia, urban decay, the stresses of modern life and other such more immediately threatening matters than they were about vampires and monsters. And indeed, that's what a lot of seminal "Goth" songs were about. The proliferation of cheap "Gothic" fiction that haunts the back shelves of second-hand bookshops today were a product of a somewhat later period.

What? Gothic horror fiction comes from a long, long time ago. Like, the 1700s or so. Even fairly modern stuff within the genre is from the early 1900s pulp magazine era, I don't think anything of that genre comes after the Gothic fashion and music trend, though for all I know there are some modern gothic horror writers.

I mean, in your mind why did they pick the word "gothic" to describe the music? Looking it up, it is because the music literally referenced the book genre but you may have a different reasoning which would be interesting to hear.

[John Longarrow]

Gang,

Arguing Gothic Music VS Gothic Literature (or architecture) isn't really on topic. You may want to discuss it in PMs.

P.S. They are not based off of each other in any way, nor are either related to Gothic Architecture or Gothic culture).

[Marlowe]

And NO Gothic band of which I'm aware drew inspiration from the works of Mrs Radcliff . That's what I'm trying to tell you. Your entire premise is wrong, and if you knew anything about the subject that should be obvious to you. The Gothic subculture has much more obvious and clear cultural references from the modern era. For the record, the earliest rock song I've heard the word "Gothic" applied to was the Velvet Underground's "All Tomorrow's Parties".

The word "Gothic" is one of those words that's been applied to so many things over the years that it's lost all meaning. (http://imgur.com/a/DxXw5) However, it is usually derogatory. It's derogatory when applied to the architecture (because "civilised" people should prefer classical romanesque architecture), it's derogatory when applied to the novels, and it's derogatory when applied to be music. Like I said, it was a label the British music press came up with as a dismissive slur on certain bands and got picked up by the resulting subculture as a challenge.

[Zanos]

I don't think any modern usage of the word gothic is derogatory.

[Blackhawk748]

I don't think any modern usage of the word gothic is derogatory.

It certainly isn't anymore as theres an entire subculture that sues it, so it loses any bite it ever had.

[Marlowe]

That it's lost it's bite as an insult? No argument. But its use as a descriptive adjective for architecture, literature, and music was originally intended as insulting. Because Goths are remembered as being barbarians.

The use of "Gothics" as a description of the patterns more often called "Arabesques", oddly enough, is simply reflecting that these patterns entered Europe through Spain, considered a land occupied by Goths by early medieval historians.

[Inevitability]

Is this real? Tell me this isn't real.

[John Longarrow]

Hey, never heard of anyone using the term "Goth" or "Gothic" as derogatory. Then again I've learned over the last few years that people can turn ANYTHING into a derogatory term. Gotta love current politics!

[Marlowe]

Have you never looked at a copy of Melody Maker or New Musical Express? Especially the NME? They still use "Goth" as an insult.

The Sisters of Mercy aren't exactly fond of the word either. (http://www.thesistersofmercy.com/misc/deardok.htm)

[Yukitsu]

And NO Gothic band of which I'm aware drew inspiration from the works of Mrs Radcliff . That's what I'm trying to tell you. Your entire premise is wrong, and if you knew anything about the subject that should be obvious to you. The Gothic subculture has much more obvious and clear cultural references from the modern era. For the record, the earliest rock song I've heard the word "Gothic" applied to was the Velvet Underground's "All Tomorrow's Parties".

The word "Gothic" is one of those words that's been applied to so many things over the years that it's lost all meaning. (http://imgur.com/a/DxXw5) However, it is usually derogatory. It's derogatory when applied to the architecture (because "civilised" people should prefer classical romanesque architecture), it's derogatory when applied to the novels, and it's derogatory when applied to be music. Like I said, it was a label the British music press came up with as a dismissive slur on certain bands and got picked up by the resulting subculture as a challenge.

Taken from the wiki, but all the linked references seem sound:

""Bela Lugosi's Dead" is considered the harbinger of gothic rock music and has been immensely influential on contemporary goth culture."

And: "The title referenced horror film star Bela Lugosi (1882–1956), who did much to establish the modern vampire image as the title character in the 1931 film Dracula, and who had been dead for over two decades when the song was written and recorded."

The first time it is coined, it is used in the context of the location where an interview is being held, that being gothic inspired architecture discussing the music which had violence and dark themes. The idea that "gothic" meant that seems to come from the context of gothic literature as that's the identifying hallmark of the genre.

By all accounts that I can find, the term was chosen because it related in many ways to the literature or directly referenced it.

I mean if you think goths are called that because they listen to a genre of music that just has people who are being compared to a bunch of barbarians, sure, but it doesn't seem to be true in context.

[Crake]

Is this real? Tell me this isn't real.

I'm confused too Dire_Stirge. I wasn't sure what to expect coming into this thread... but this certainly wasn't it.

[Marlowe]

Stating that because "Bela Lugosi's Dead" references the actor then all goth music has to be about gothic horror is like saying that because that "Muscle in Plastic" references Ninjitsky that all Gothic music is about ballet dancing. The fact that it references an actor rather than the character should tell you something. It's a pop culture reference. Nothing more. Bauhaus were full of them. "Bela Lugosi's Dead", which is long, sparse, and rather atmospheric is actually fairly atypical of Bauhaus's material which is generally rather frenetic. And I'm certainly grasping to think of many Bauhaus numbers about violence.

I mean if we wanted songs about violence and monsters there was this little outfit in a different genre called "Iron Maiden" who had that pretty well sewn up.

Truth to tell; most Goths I've chatted to seem to find Bauhaus somewhat on the silly side and seem to find "Bela Lugosi's Dead" rather hilarious. I've noted a lot more direct imitations of Alice, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GwWra1sQgo) for instance, than I have people attempting to follow BLD's campiness.

The Gothic=barbarian thing is a long chain association. The architectural style got named "gothic" by those that preferred the older classical style (western Europe took a long time to overcome its cultural cringe vis-a-vis the glory that was Greece and the Grandeur that was Rome, et cetera), leading to the literary style being named "gothic" after the architecture, and then the music got lumped with the term in reference to the long-mocked literary style.

Aaaanyway. OP? Could we get back to the "I thought Goths worshipped Demons" thing? Because if you're making fun of us then that's fine but I find it hilariously disturbing that someone with internet access might think that Tim Burton sacrifices infants to Belphagor.

[JoshuaZ]

Hey, never heard of anyone using the term "Goth" or "Gothic" as derogatory. Then again I've learned over the last few years that people can turn ANYTHING into a derogatory term. Gotta love current politics!

Nothing current about it. The use of Goth as a derogatory term dates back to the 1500s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture#Terminology).

[KillingAScarab]

Really? I think the subculture is darkness, vampires, negativty, demons, blood.

Because I thought Drow are the closest to goth. Someone did mention on one of my threads " Goths In 3.5" Drow are somewhat related to goths.Hi, Bartmanhomer. As others have already pointed out. There's quite a few different parts to Gothic subculture. Not everyone's in it for the same reasons, much as gamers here on Giant in the Playground don't all enjoy the same games, and not everyone here is a gamer. There's certainly a lot of people who came to enjoy Order of the Stick who also enjoy Dungeons & Dragons, but we can't say all do. In a similar vein, ThouShaltNot has a song about many of the stereotypical things Goths enjoy ("If I Only Were A Goth (http://www.thoushalt.net/words/#if)," which is set to the same tune as the "If I Only Had A..." songs from the film adaptation of The Wizard of Oz), but not every Goth does.

That said, you can certainly find cross-over between people who enjoy dark romance or horror and roleplaying games. White Wolf is kinda famous/infamous for catering to this in their World of Darkness products, but they also published the 3rd edition campaign setting for Ravenloft under their Sword & Sorcery imprint. If your looking for "darker" material to bring over into another setting using the d20 rules, such as stranger vampires, it's not bad if you can track it down. I think I might recommend skipping the altered magic, though, since there are really enough rules to remember for D&D 3.X.

Since you're interested in deities in Forgotten Realms, specifically, I've always had a soft spot for Kelemvor (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kelemvor). A death god who wants to make dying less scary for mortals seems like a very good story seed to me. Do his followers need to all be recognizably Goths? No, but I think you can come up with some interesting quirks for NPCs or PCs who worship him (or oppose him). I mean, if Akadi (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Akadi) can have clerics who are trying to put mechanical wings on housecats, I think there's room on Toril for a cleric of Kelemvor to make references to "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" or a bard who sings a few bars of "Riding a Black Unicorn Down the Side of an Erupting Volcano While Drinking from a Chalice Filled with the Laughter of Small Children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_a_Black_Unicorn_Down_the_Side_of_an_Eruptin g_Volcano_While_Drinking_from_a_Chalice_Filled_wit h_the_Laughter_of_Small_Children)." Not everyone enjoys that, so consider your audience, especially if you're the DM.

[John Longarrow]

Have you never looked at a copy of Melody Maker or New Musical Express? Especially the NME? They still use "Goth" as an insult.

Nope. Never. Never even heard of them before.

So your saying a couple mags use the reference as an insult? Hmmm.. Wonder of Accelerated Chart Movements knew so they could change around how it was classified.

[khadgar567]

nani? WTF? and some one please tldr the damn dysfunction junction called this treath

[lylsyly]

If she's supposed to be the demigoddess of "Darkness", did she get Ozzy Osbourne's permission first?


So maybe "Gothikneeds the blessing a" of Jello Biafra instead of Ozzy?

Your both wrong. It's Alice Cooper and Marilyn Manson :smallbiggrin:


Going by my Sisters of Mercy albums, it's more like cars, drugs, guns, women, modernist poetry, and wars.

Going by my Bauhaus albums, it's more like poorly-understood dadaist theory.

Going by my Cure albums, it's more like the pain of failed relationships and urban paranoia.

Seriously, Demons?:smallconfused:

My formerly Goth self would agree with all the above.


Is this real? Tell me this isn't real.


I'm confused too Dire_Stirge. I wasn't sure what to expect coming into this thread... but this certainly wasn't it.
Yes it's Real. There are some opinions in here about a thing that you really need to experience to understand. To me, being Goth was all about failure, paranoia, depression and the likelihood that things were only going to get worse, with absolutely no chance of ever getting better.

And those of you who think of Goth and Emo merging ... I hope you don't ever express that opinion in a room full of both.

@Bartmanhomer: Perhaps you should spend a little more time researching before you post up an idea like this.

Sorry if I step on toes, just telling it like I see it.

Happy New Year

[John Longarrow]

To me, being Goth was all about failure, paranoia, depression and the likelihood that things were only going to get worse, with absolutely no chance of ever getting better.

Sounds like a deployment to me...

[Blackhawk748]

As a Metal Head i can say that our music definitely features more demons, monsters and bloody violence that most of the Goth Rock i've heard (which isnt much but still). On top of this myself and most of my friends have always considered Emos to be lame people who are copying off the Goths, who are cool. It may be wrong but its been true for most of my experiences.

[lylsyly]

Sounds like a deployment to me...

Huh? Oh! :smallbiggrin: Well, my Goth period DID coincide with my 13.5 years of service. :smallwink:

[Yukitsu]

Stating that because "Bela Lugosi's Dead" references the actor then all goth music has to be about gothic horror is like saying that because that "Muscle in Plastic" references Ninjitsky that all Gothic music is about ballet dancing. The fact that it references an actor rather than the character should tell you something. It's a pop culture reference. Nothing more. Bauhaus were full of them. "Bela Lugosi's Dead", which is long, sparse, and rather atmospheric is actually fairly atypical of Bauhaus's material which is generally rather frenetic. And I'm certainly grasping to think of many Bauhaus numbers about violence.


Right, but that is according to all sources why they picked the word. It doesn't really matter that it was atypical, the references including the ones about the coining of the phrase all reference back to the literature. I mean why according to you did they pick "gothic" to describe it otherwise? :smallconfused:

[Solaris]

And most Goths would be distinctly offended at being called Emo. Thank you very much.

But that's what makes it so much fun!
Well, that, and the rest of us can't tell the difference.


Sounds like a deployment to me...

I know, right?
I rather lost my taste for that sort of thing after deploying. Seemed rather pointless.


As for actually on-topic responses... I second the use of Kelemvor, or a homebrew demigoddess related to him if you must. You can kinda get some of the aesthetic going, as D&D has always been a little iffy about whether it wants to be Medieval, Renaissance, or even Early Modern artistically and culturally. Something inspired by the Romantic period is not exactly out of place in a setting that is itself drawn rather heavily from Romantic notions. Heck, Gothic horror informs a great many tropes common to D&D adventures!
That's if you're operating more from Gothic horror as your starting point than the music, mind, which isn't out of the question being as Gothic horror has been an influence on the goth subculture pretty much since the get-go. The general nihilistic ennui thing could also be integrated in from that, given reading is more a sport of the upper classes and those are the sorts who historically were given to nihilistic ennui. We needn't be too concerned about where the ideas for the monsters came from; in an odd little circle, those monsters already exist for people to write stories about them.

[The Glyphstone]

Aaaanyway. OP? Could we get back to the "I thought Goths worshipped Demons" thing? Because if you're making fun of us then that's fine but I find it hilariously disturbing that someone with internet access might think that Tim Burton sacrifices infants to Belphagor.

And is apparently a vampire, to boot.

[Zanos]

And is apparently a vampire, to boot.
Tim Burton is definitely a vampire. The question is whether or not he's a vampire warlock.

[Marlowe]

I'm just trying to figure out how the OP plans to have a Goddess for a group of people he thinks worship demons.

Actually, I'm just trying to figure out how he expects a bunch of goths to agree on anything to the extent of worshiping anything. Goths respectfully disagree. No need for specifics, just in general. Hell, I'm not even sure I agree with this.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm just trying to figure out how the OP plans to have a Goddess for a group of people he thinks worship demons.

Actually, I'm just trying to figure out how he expects a bunch of goths to agree on anything to the extent of worshiping anything. Goths respectfully disagree. No need for specifics, just in general. Hell, I'm not even sure I agree with this. I already said that I made a mistake.

[John Longarrow]

I'm just trying to figure out how the OP plans to have a Goddess for a group of people he thinks worship demons.

Actually, I'm just trying to figure out how he expects a bunch of goths to agree on anything to the extent of worshiping anything. Goths respectfully disagree. No need for specifics, just in general. Hell, I'm not even sure I agree with this.

OP knows less about Goth culture that I do and made some rather odd assumptions. I think he's trying to create some "demigoddess of darkness" but he admitted he didn't really think this through. There may also be a language barrier, something I've come to assume on this forum. Nothing indicated where he's from doesn't mean his native language is English.

[Bartmanhomer]

OP knows less about Goth culture that I do and made some rather odd assumptions. I think he's trying to create some "demigoddess of darkness" but he admitted he didn't really think this through. There may also be a language barrier, something I've come to assume on this forum. Nothing indicated where he's from doesn't mean his native language is English.
I speak and understand English. She really don't thought this through.

[John Longarrow]

I speak and understand English. She really don't thought this through.

So you understand, "Native Speaker" means you not only live in a country where English is the common tongue, but also use it almost exclusively. From some of your word choices your posts read as though you are not from a country that uses English exclusively.

[Bartmanhomer]

So you understand, "Native Speaker" means you not only live in a country where English is the common tongue, but also use it almost exclusively. From some of your word choices your posts read as though you are not from a country that uses English exclusively. FYI I got Autism. So my word choices and socialization isn't great.

[Marlowe]

Well, for the record, I always thought Gloamings would be the perfect Goth race. They originate from the Plane of Shadow (you know, the place that's even represented as an elegant Goth lady), wander around as individuals, and disagree with everyone they meet as a matter of principal. Right to be point of being a flying race that chooses to live underground. Sounds very Gothy.

[KillingAScarab]

As for actually on-topic responses... I second the use of Kelemvor, or a homebrew demigoddess related to him if you must. You can kinda get some of the aesthetic going, as D&D has always been a little iffy about whether it wants to be Medieval, Renaissance, or even Early Modern artistically and culturally. Something inspired by the Romantic period is not exactly out of place in a setting that is itself drawn rather heavily from Romantic notions. Heck, Gothic horror informs a great many tropes common to D&D adventures!
That's if you're operating more from Gothic horror as your starting point than the music, mind, which isn't out of the question being as Gothic horror has been an influence on the goth subculture pretty much since the get-go. The general nihilistic ennui thing could also be integrated in from that, given reading is more a sport of the upper classes and those are the sorts who historically were given to nihilistic ennui. We needn't be too concerned about where the ideas for the monsters came from; in an odd little circle, those monsters already exist for people to write stories about them.The Sword & Sorcery Ravenloft Campaign Setting even has in its first chapter a run-down of the periods of the Gothic literary genre and what themes to include in such a campaign.


I made a mistaken about generalized that all goth worship demons.

Aaaanyway. OP? Could we get back to the "I thought Goths worshipped Demons" thing? Because if you're making fun of us then that's fine but I find it hilariously disturbing that someone with internet access might think that Tim Burton sacrifices infants to Belphagor.

And is apparently a vampire, to boot.

Tim Burton is definitely a vampire. The question is whether or not he's a vampire warlock.Campaign idea: Undermountain, but run by Tim Burton. The dungeon changes on you into recreations of various films he has directed. You can go from Batman Returns to Big Fish on a dime and get very confused as to why Danny Devito is suddenly a different NPC entirely. You start out in a "only produced" area which oscillates between The Nightmare Before Christmas, Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter and that failed attempt to make a Superman movie with Nicholas Cage.
The dungeon has actually been taken over by Johnny Depp.

Regarding the demon thing, I present to you Aureilio Voltaire's satellite interview on Fox New Channel regarding "Goth Murder Madness (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf8EeyAB8fA)." He handled it well. It also was not the first time people had been concerned about Goths and violent acts. Two violent teenagers didn't do a lot of people any favors not all that long ago with that Trenchcoat Mafia nonsense; Goths, gamers, people who own firearms and are responsible with them... Bartmanhomer may also have been unaware of the stigma around Dungeons & Dragons in the 1980s after James Egbert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dallas_Egbert_III). Its the sort of thing where parents, without knowing where to look for facts, would come to trust the hearsay in order to protect their children; I recall Jeremy Holkins had a news post on Penny Arcade after an Acquisitions Incorporated session at Penny Arcade Expo where his mother finally got to see what the hobby means to people.

[Bartmanhomer]

I just assume that all goth worship demons.

[Marlowe]

You're going to have to explain how you would make such a bizarre assumption about a very large group of very real people.

[Bartmanhomer]

You're going to have to explain how you would make such a bizarre assumption about a very large group of very real people.

Well it's a real world religious assumption that I'm not allowed to discussed in this forum because it against forum rules.

[Marlowe]

Goths aren't a religion. I've met few that are even religious. Demon-worship also isn't a religion. So no it's NOT.

How could you come up with something so preposterous? We're not some fictional race in an obscure sourcebook; we're the normal people in your neighbourhood.

[Bartmanhomer]

Goths aren't a religion. I've met few that are even religious. Demon-worship also isn't a religion. So no it's NOT.

How could you come up with something so preposterous? We're not some fictional race in an obscure sourcebook; we're the normal people in your neighbourhood.
I'm already say that I'm sorry. You don't need to grilled on me about it. Calm down. :frown:

[Marlowe]

You misunderstand. I'm finding this all rather amusing.

Yet it is also a little unsettling. That someone with basic literacy and internet access, that is to say someone with more facts and figures available at their fingertips than the vast majority of scholars throughout recorded history, could so blandly come up with such a egregiously inaccurate and mendacious theory about people who are your metaphorical and actual neighbours.

I can't help but wonder how, and I can't help but wonder what else is in there.

[Coidzor]

I just assume that all goth worship demons.

Still? After being informed otherwise?

Well, that's a strange decision to make.

[John Longarrow]

Well it's a real world religious assumption that I'm not allowed to discussed in this forum because it against forum rules.

You may want to continue this with Marlowe by Private Messages. I'm sure you will have your misconceptions cleared up.

[Bartmanhomer]

You misunderstand. I'm finding this all rather amusing.

Yet it is also a little unsettling. That someone with basic literacy and internet access, that is to say someone with more facts and figures available at their fingertips than the vast majority of scholars throughout recorded history, could so blandly come up with such a egregiously inaccurate and mendacious theory about people who are your metaphorical and actual neighbours.

I can't help but wonder how, and I can't help but wonder what else is in there.
Oh OK. My bad then. I thought that you were insulted me or something. Let's move on then. I may be no Goth expert but I do know that Goth got the interesting fashion. Mostly dark. And they do read Gothic literature. :smile:

[KillingAScarab]

You misunderstand. I'm finding this all rather amusing.

Yet it is also a little unsettling. That someone with basic literacy and internet access, that is to say someone with more facts and figures available at their fingertips than the vast majority of scholars throughout recorded history, could so blandly come up with such a egregiously inaccurate and mendacious theory about people who are your metaphorical and actual neighbours.

I can't help but wonder how, and I can't help but wonder what else is in there.While Internet access is a luxury, and there are places in which it is heavily restricted (I recall that in Cuba only doctors are allowed access), there are many places in which you do not need to be a scholar to post on a forum.

I feel obliged to share this xkcd comic. (https://xkcd.com/386/)


Oh OK. My bad then. I thought that you were insulted me or something. Let's move on then. I may be no Goth expert but I do know that Goth got the interesting fashion. Mostly dark. And they do read Gothic literature. :smile:Hm. Gothic fashion and Forgotten Realms. Those would be two roads I haven't seen intersect. Perhaps followers of Mask (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mask) could employ a few designers, but there isn't a major organization which is coming to mind.

[Marlowe]

I have never met any Goth express a preference for "The castle of Otranto" or "Varney the Vampire", ta very much. If any Goths show a fondness for fashion from older times, they most likely got it from Jane Austen, same as most people.

Most Goths I've met (and most bands I've listened to) seem to prefer modernist and post-modernist literature. I mean, it isn't hard to tell this stuff. Goths tend to be bookish people who like literary arguments. Some read the likes of Anne Rice, but that's pretty much gothsploitation stuff that became popular after the subculture was already established, rather than anything that inspired it.


While Internet access is a luxury, and there are places in which it is heavily restricted (I recall that in Cuba only doctors are allowed access), there are many places in which you do not need to be a scholar to post on a forum.
Where do you get the idea that I was calling him a scholar?

[Bartmanhomer]

Marlowe informed me that Goth don't worship demons. I guess I got a lot of researching to do.

[John Longarrow]

Some read the likes of Anne Rice, but that's pretty much gothsploitation stuff that became popular after the subculture was already established, rather than anything that inspired it.

Depends a LOT on which writings of hers you like. I don't think her Sleeping Beauty works are representative of Goth culture near as much as BDSM.

[Marlowe]

Depends a LOT on which writings of hers you like. I don't think her Sleeping Beauty works are representative of Goth culture near as much as BDSM.

I don't like Anne Rice at all. But some of my friends do and she seems to have successfully created a subgenre of "gothic" urban fantasy, so I'm just being polite.

[KillingAScarab]

Where do you get the idea that I was calling him a scholar?I did not. I have the impression that you might expect quite a bit more out of people asking questions on the Internet than I do.


Marlowe informed me that Goth don't worship demons. I guess I got a lot of researching to do.Everyone's got to start somewhere. Often, starting with, "I don't know," will help.

[Pronounceable]

If you seriously want to, you can just make up goths who worship demons in your fantasy role playing game, even without any sort of rational explanation for their existence beyond I want to. You just need to do something interesting with the idea and flesh it out.

It'd also help (a lot) if the end result doesn't read like a fanfic written by a teenager who doesn't actually know anything about the subject but it's acceptable to start with that. So long as you improve later.

[OldTrees1]

Well, for the record, I always thought Gloamings would be the perfect Goth race. They originate from the Plane of Shadow (you know, the place that's even represented as an elegant Goth lady), wander around as individuals, and disagree with everyone they meet as a matter of principal. Right to be point of being a flying race that chooses to live underground. Sounds very Gothy.

Wait, wait, wait. The Plane of Shadows is represented as a Person(specifically a Goth lady)?

This could be highly relevant to the topic at hand. Please tell and cite more about this!


Disclaimer: All I know about Goths is the predominately black & white aesthetic.

[Marlowe]

Manual of the Planes page 45. As part of the text background shows sketched personifications, or sample inhabitants, or whatever for the Astral, Ethereal, and Shadow planes.

Ethereal gets a magitech-looking explorer/astronaut sort with goggles. Astral gets a guy with a knife. Shadow gets an Asian-looking Goth lady practicing the off-the-shoulder look.

I can't find these images on-line, presumably because they're just used as backgrounds rather than illustrations.

Come to think of it; Shadar-Kai might make good villainous Goths:https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/f0/88/88/f08888d7babd772af671494609426083.jpg
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/istria/images/2/29/Shadarkai_illo.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20101103193911
http://cra2.com/wartorn/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/shadar6.jpg
https://haroldshomebrewworld.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/raveng-queen1.jpg

I've mentioned Gloamings. The one at the back.
https://41.media.tumblr.com/665bb26d269b9e2656314fa5b04bc0e7/tumblr_n8j6t2a8GU1tgv3cpo2_400.jpg

And the Deep Imaskari (the one with the three little "wings") deserve note.
http://40.media.tumblr.com/6c5d197852b65ec568141e8e0d701b9a/tumblr_n8j6t2a8GU1tgv3cpo1_400.jpg

Although neither Gloamings nor Imaskari are supposed to be villainous, so that's probably a "problem".

[atemu1234]

This seems like a good time to pose a long-standing question I've had for a while, I suppose.

Is emo a subgroup of goth, vice-versa, or two separate things? Or is it open to interpretation?

I know emo is basically a group formed around the music genre of the same name, which was an outgrowth of emopunk, a hardcore rock style sometimes called 'Emotional Hardcore'.

Goth, on the other hand, is attributed to multiple groups over the last half-century alone.

[Bartmanhomer]

This seems like a good time to pose a long-standing question I've had for a while, I suppose.

Is emo a subgroup of goth, vice-versa, or two separate things? Or is it open to interpretation?

I know emo is basically a group formed around the music genre of the same name, which was an outgrowth of emopunk, a hardcore rock style sometimes called 'Emotional Hardcore'.

Goth, on the other hand, is attributed to multiple groups over the last half-century alone.

I heard of emos but I'm not sure if emos are the same group as goths.

[Marlowe]

No. Emos are not Goths. Enough.