Peach some Houserules?

[Ursus Spelaeus]

I'd like to run some house rules by you. Please tell me what you think.

Initiative
Add BAB to initiative checks.
This is meant to help martial characters to get the drop on casters before they can buff, or ready some actions to disrupt spellcasting. They can always choose to delay action if they wish to receive buffs before attacking, but this way at least martials have the tactical edge of being able to dictate the pace of combat.

Scaling Damage
All characters step up weapon and unarmed damage as their BAB increases.
Step up all d10 weapon dice to d12 right away for a smoother curve, then step up damage dice by one size for every four points of BAB.
This rule is intended to help damage keep up with HP bloat.

Damage dice progression, with averages noted in parenthesis:
d3 (1.5) > d4 (2.5) > d6 (3.5) > d8 (4.5) > d12 (6.5) > 2d8 (9) > 2d12 (13) > 4d8 (18) > 4d12 (26) > 16d8 (36) > 16d12 (52)

Average Damage
For purposes of expediency, players may choose to deal average damage instead of rolling for it, but they have to declare this before rolling the dice.

Saving Throws
Players are allowed a special option for saving throw calculation to help alleviate the problem of MAD without making characters too SAD: they may add the averages of two ability modifiers to their saving throws.
Players may choose to add only half their Constitution modifier to Fortitude in order to add half their Strength modifier as well.
Players may choose to add only half their Dexterity modifier to Reflex in order to also add half their Intelligence modifier.
Players may choose to add only half their Wisdom modifier to Will in order to add half their Charisma modifier.

Dual Wielding
Dual-wielding characters may make a Split Attack as a standard action. To make a split attack, make one attack with your main hand weapon and one additional attack with your off-hand weapon. Both attacks are made at your highest BAB with two-weapon fighting penalties applied. You may not make any other additional attacks as part of a split attack.

Armor Strength Ratings
Heavier armors in D&D are designed to be harder to move around in for purposes of "realism".
Well, if heavy armor makes it harder to move, then heavy armor should also make it harder to BE moved.

Suits of armor get Strength ratings. You may add your armor's Strength rating as an item bonus to opposed Strength checks to avoid being grappled, bullrushed, or tripped.
If you Strength modifier exceeds your armor's Strength rating, you may move at your base movement rate without penalty.

Helmets
Helmets come included with full suits of armor (not the chain shirt or the breastplate) but can also be purchased separately.
Helmets apply their armor check penalty to Spot and Listen checks while worn, and add their armor bonus only to AC against critical hit confirmation.

Shields
All shields add their bonus to touch AC.

Firearms
Guns use the same stats as crossbows except with half range and improved critical hit multipliers.

Personalized Grip
Personalized grip is a masterwork weapon add-on. It adds +50gp to the cost of a weapon, and +1 to the Craft DC.
When you add a personalized grip to a weapon, choose one penalty you would take to attack rolls with that weapon (non-proficient, two-weapon fighting, improvised, inappropriate size, etc.) and reduce that penalty by -2.

[Zanos]

I'd like to run some house rules by you. Please tell me what you think.

Initiative
Add BAB to initiative checks.
This is meant to help martial characters to get the drop on casters before they can buff, or ready some actions to disrupt spellcasting. They can always choose to delay action if they wish to receive buffs before attacking, but this way at least martials have the tactical edge of being able to dictate the pace of combat.

Sounds great on paper, but also makes casting PrCs with full BAB much more attractive to casters.



Scaling Damage
All characters step up weapon and unarmed damage as their BAB increases.
Step up all d10 weapon dice to d12 right away for a smoother curve, then step up damage dice by one size for every four points of BAB.
This rule is intended to help damage keep up with HP bloat.
Damage dice progression, with averages noted in parenthesis:
d3 (1.5) > d4 (2.5) > d6 (3.5) > d8 (4.5) > d12 (6.5) > 2d8 (9) > 2d12 (13) > 4d8 (18) > 4d12 (26) > 16d8 (36) > 16d12 (52)

Dealing damage damage with melee combat has never been an issue for martial characters. Not sure why you want to add more damage to the archetypes that have the easiest time dealing damage.



Average Damage
For purposes of expediency, players may choose to deal average damage instead of rolling for it, but they have to declare this before rolling the dice.

Might cause some issues if people know their average damage will drop a creature while a low roll wouldn't, but is probably fine in practice.



Saving Throws
Players are allowed a special option for saving throw calculation to help alleviate the problem of MAD without making characters too SAD: they may add the averages of two ability modifiers to their saving throws.
Players may choose to add only half their Constitution modifier to Fortitude in order to add half their Strength modifier as well.
Players may choose to add only half their Dexterity modifier to Reflex in order to also add half their Intelligence modifier.
Players may choose to add only half their Wisdom modifier to Will in order to add half their Charisma modifier.

Seems okay. Sorcerers will have sky high will saves, though. Most classes that tend towards high strength also have high constitution, so I don't think anyone's getting a lot of help with their fort save from this.



Dual Wielding
Dual-wielding characters may make a Split Attack as a standard action. To make a split attack, make one attack with your main hand weapon and one additional attack with your off-hand weapon. Both attacks are made at your highest BAB with two-weapon fighting penalties applied. You may not make any other additional attacks as part of a split attack.

Sounds good.



Armor Strength Ratings
Heavier armors in D&D are designed to be harder to move around in for purposes of "realism".
Well, if heavy armor makes it harder to move, then heavy armor should also make it harder to BE moved.

Suits of armor get Strength ratings. You may add your armor's Strength rating as an item bonus to opposed Strength checks to avoid being grappled, bullrushed, or tripped.
If you Strength modifier exceeds your armor's Strength rating, you may move at your base movement rate without penalty.

Cool. Might make heavy armor actually good.



Helmets
Helmets come included with full suits of armor (not the chain shirt or the breastplate) but can also be purchased separately.
Helmets apply their armor check penalty to Spot and Listen checks while worn, and add their armor bonus only to AC against critical hit confirmation.

I'd suggest against penalizing spot/listen checks for helmet wearers.



Shields
All shields add their bonus to touch AC.

Yep.



Firearms
Guns use the same stats as crossbows except with half range and improved critical hit multipliers.
Ew, guns?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Two notes;

The saving throw thing will have the opposite of its intended effect. You're giving them the option to split them between two abilities, making them -more- MAD, not less. If you're gonna do this, let them choose one ability or the other.

The gun thing is so half-assed you may as well not even bother. PF's ultimate combat has some decent-ish firearm rules you can pluck wholesale from d20pfsrd.com (at least I think it was ultimate combat. The page on the website says which book it comes from.)

[Zanos]

His ability score saving throw rules are optional. So a character with decent int but garbage dex could still get something to their reflex save, where high dex low int characters could stick with just their dex and be unchanged.

The issue is that it doesn't do much for characters who worry about that. Most low will save progression classes have little use for either wisdom or charisma, for example. Low fort save progression classes don't get much either, since they tend to have con higher than strength anyway.

[Crake]

A couple of things you probably overlooked: The BAB to initiative thing makes some monsters absurd due to their sheer HD and tremendous bab for their level. Take dragons for example. Many of them have a decent chunk of HD over their CR, and have full bab, meaning they will easily outstrip the players completely in terms of initiative, practically guarenteeing they act first.

Your save modifications don't decrease MAD, they increase it, by making the saves more reliant on other abilities. A better solution would be to allow players to pick one or the other, not have it be based on both.

Rest seems all fine I guess. Shield to touch AC is a bit odd, why shield but not armor? Are you aware that there are feats to allow you to do this already?

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Ah, good catch on the dragon BAB. Will reconsider the Initiative rule.

While the damage scaling rule does benefit characters that already have good damage, I feel that such characters could still use the boost so that higher level fights don't feel like such a slog.

Will definitely reconsider the Saving Throw rule. That was just a shot in the dark, anyway.

I am aware that there are already feats that let shield users add their bonus to touch AC, but I want to make it standard because I feel that sword & board users need the help.

As for firearms, I like guns in my fantasy medieval settings because medieval men-at-arms really did use guns. They emerged onto Europe's battlefields in the 14th century. I don't know what people's hangups with them area all about. But I don't need really complicated rules for guns. I just need simple things that will do the job. Fire off a brace of pistols, then drop them and draw your sword. Doesn't need a lot of fuss.

Glad you guys like the Armor Strength rule though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As for firearms, I like guns in my fantasy medieval settings because medieval men-at-arms really did use guns. They emerged onto Europe's battlefields in the 14th century. I don't know what people's hangups with them area all about. But I don't need really complicated rules for guns. I just need simple things that will do the job. Fire off a brace of pistols, then drop them and draw your sword. Doesn't need a lot of fuss.

When I think "Medieval," I think more of the era of the crusades. The 1300's feels a little late for me.

There are stats for a musket and a pistol in the DMG and you could combine them with the PF rule of ignoring armor bonus to AC in the first range increment. That'd be simple enough.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

When I think "Medieval," I think more of the era of the crusades. The 1300's feels a little late for me.

There are stats for a musket and a pistol in the DMG and you could combine them with the PF rule of ignoring armor bonus to AC in the first range increment. That'd be simple enough.

Medieval describes a really large span of Western history including Roman empire's East/West split all the way to the Renaissance.

I don't want to use that Pathfinder rule. Many suits of plate armor have a dent in the breast plate from where they were 'bullet-proofed'. The armorer would demonstrate the suit's quality by shooting it at point-blank range with a pistol. Armor protected from bullets just fine in those days. The whole idea that armor is just totally useless against guns is a modern thing.

[Zanos]

I always thought armor not working against firearms was a stupid rule in Pathfinder. Obviously medieval plate armor isn't going to stop an intermediate or full power rifle cartridge machined with modern tech, but gangs in the 1880-1920s were using pretty makeshift "armor" to stop rounds up to .45 ACP. Hell, several cartridges were even invented in the 1930s specifically to defeat the armor that gangsters were using at the time. I'm fairly confident that a good suit a of medieval plate armor and a gambeson could protect you from most modern pistol cartridges.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Precisely. Hence why I am not interested in very unusual rules for firearms.
All I care about is that guns:
1) Take a long time to reload (but not that much longer than crossbows)
2) Have a fairly short range
3) Do enough damage to offset their drawbacks
4) Are affordable, simple weapons

I am very adamant on that last point. The historical advantage of guns, even when they couldn't penetrate armor, was that they were really easy to use. Guns shouldn't be rare, exotic weapons exclusive to a handful of special snowflakes. A brace of pistols should just be a standard part of a typical adventurer's kit, and should be balanced as such.

*edit*
On the point of reloading crossbows
You had to kneel down, put your foot through a rung on the end of the crossbow, connect the string to a special hook on your belt, and stand up. You had to put the full strength of your lower body into readying a crossbow. Those things took a long time and energy to reload. Comparable to reloading an early firearm, even.

[Zombimode]

Initiative
Add BAB to initiative checks.
This is meant to help martial characters to get the drop on casters before they can buff, or ready some actions to disrupt spellcasting. They can always choose to delay action if they wish to receive buffs before attacking, but this way at least martials have the tactical edge of being able to dictate the pace of combat.

Monsters often have higher Bab then PCs. This will not have the intended consequences.

I think forum talk of martials vs. casters may have clouded your judgement here. The game is not "casters vs. martials" but "a mixed party vs. all kinds of different challenges, most often not actual humanoids with PC caster levels".


Scaling Damage
All characters step up weapon and unarmed damage as their BAB increases.
Step up all d10 weapon dice to d12 right away for a smoother curve, then step up damage dice by one size for every four points of BAB.
This rule is intended to help damage keep up with HP bloat.

Damage dice progression, with averages noted in parenthesis:
d3 (1.5) > d4 (2.5) > d6 (3.5) > d8 (4.5) > d12 (6.5) > 2d8 (9) > 2d12 (13) > 4d8 (18) > 4d12 (26) > 16d8 (36) > 16d12 (52)

While "how do I deal damage?" is a question that most characters need to answer because there is no automatism in the system, it is a question that CAN be answered. And quite easily in most cases. Bottom line: for warrior types, dealing damage is not a problem.

On the other hand this rule will result in some enemies that already dealt "enough" damage to deal even more damage and thus reinforcing the rocket tag feeling of higher level gameplay. Not a good thing in my book. Look at Giants for instance.


Average Damage
For purposes of expediency, players may choose to deal average damage instead of rolling for it, but they have to declare this before rolling the dice.


Ok, but why? People who take their time totaling their damage roll will probably also need that time to determine their average damage.


Saving Throws
Players are allowed a special option for saving throw calculation to help alleviate the problem of MAD without making characters too SAD: they may add the averages of two ability modifiers to their saving throws.
Players may choose to add only half their Constitution modifier to Fortitude in order to add half their Strength modifier as well.
Players may choose to add only half their Dexterity modifier to Reflex in order to also add half their Intelligence modifier.
Players may choose to add only half their Wisdom modifier to Will in order to add half their Charisma modifier.

What is the problem you are trying to fix?


Dual Wielding
Dual-wielding characters may make a Split Attack as a standard action. To make a split attack, make one attack with your main hand weapon and one additional attack with your off-hand weapon. Both attacks are made at your highest BAB with two-weapon fighting penalties applied. You may not make any other additional attacks as part of a split attack.

Seems cool. I would not ask for it, cause there are options available to achieve similar things, but its fine.


Armor Strength Ratings
Heavier armors in D&D are designed to be harder to move around in for purposes of "realism".
Well, if heavy armor makes it harder to move, then heavy armor should also make it harder to BE moved.

Suits of armor get Strength ratings. You may add your armor's Strength rating as an item bonus to opposed Strength checks to avoid being grappled, bullrushed, or tripped.
If you Strength modifier exceeds your armor's Strength rating, you may move at your base movement rate without penalty.

I like that one :smallsmile:


Helmets
Helmets come included with full suits of armor (not the chain shirt or the breastplate) but can also be purchased separately.
Helmets apply their armor check penalty to Spot and Listen checks while worn, and add their armor bonus only to AC against critical hit confirmation.

Not a fan, since it kinda breaks with the level of abstraction of AC, attack rolls and critical hits. D&D is simply not granular enough for non-magical helmets.


Shields
All shields add their bonus to touch AC.

Unnecessary, since there is a feat for that.


Firearms
Guns use the same stats as crossbows except with half range and improved critical hit multipliers.

If guns are more then an afterthought to the setting, I would wish for more profound rules on them.


Personalized Grip
Personalized grip is a masterwork weapon add-on. It adds +50gp to the cost of a weapon, and +1 to the Craft DC.
When you add a personalized grip to a weapon, choose one penalty you would take to attack rolls with that weapon (non-proficient, two-weapon fighting, improvised, inappropriate size, etc.) and reduce that penalty by -2.

Why would anyone buy a personalized masterwork weapon that the buyer has no proficiency in? Or of an item that is not actually a weapon (and in case your are thinking of Drunken Masters: they ignore improvised penalties anyway)?
All this rule does is effectively eliminate Two Weapon Fighting penalties and result in people running around with oversized weapons. If that fits your stylistic vision, sure.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

There might be something to the armor Strength bonus then.

How do you guys feel about maximum Dexterity, and armor check penalties?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Initiative
Makes sense and seems fine by me. Though as noted, some monsters have sky-high BAB, so be wary of that.


Scaling Damage
Eh... not worth it. It's a small boost to the least important part of an aspect that martial characters rarely struggle with. You probably won't notice much impact.


Average Damage
<shrug>


Saving Throws
Given that it's optional... it's alright, I suppose. Doesn't seem likely to offer a big boost to anyone in particular, except maybe Wizards. Anyone with high Str probably has a good Con (and a good Fort), and most high-Cha characters are probably casters with good Will progressions.


Dual Wielding
Good, good. Makes TWF stronger at low levels, but not terribly so.


Armor Strength Ratings
Mmm... bullrush, maybe, but heavy armor is also supposed to be clumsy; if anything, I'd think it would make it easier to upset your balance. Grappling was a common technique (http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/liberi/wildRose/section6.html) for fighting in heavy armor. If you do go with it, I'd probably base it on ACP for simplicity, or just have a flat +4 bonus for heavy armor.


Helmets
Is it a separate AC bonus against confirmation rolls, or is it saying that "to get your AC against confirmation, you have to take a Spot/Listen penalty?"


Shields
Good call.


Firearms
Agreed. Best not to introduce too many extra rules when "pretty much like a crossbow" will do.


Personalized Grip
A flat bonus, basically-- there's now no penalty for Rapid Shot, TWF, or oversized weapons. It does boost the weaker styles more then two-handed power attacks, which is nice... I dunno, no real harm, I guess. Mostly nice for Rogues and the like, who between this and the Dual Wielding houserule wind up very happy.

[John Longarrow]

Two items of note:
First, as you've pointed out crossbows in D&D fire waaaay to fast compared to real life. They also do far less damage than their historical counterparts and lack their historical counterparts ability to punch through armor at short range.

Making a "gunpowder" version won't add much. You'd be better off with a custom crafted set of rules that reflect the 30+ second loading time of a historical matchlock but give it the kind of damage it really had. I'd just make them touch attacks since most armor wasn't proof against firearms, and historically the proofing shot wasn't always done with a full charge.

For armor, I'd skip trying to make it harder to grapple or be bullrushed in. Truth is it really wasn't nearly as restrictive as the game seems to think. It also isn't bottom weighted to help against these types of maneuvers. Max Dex and ACP are what really need to be looked at, especially for heavy armor. Full plate was easier to move around in than a chain shirt because it was much better balanced. I can see a higher max dex for full plate than for hide, chain shirt, or breast breast plate. Weight wise and restriction on movement shouldn't be any more than what a modern U.S. Infantry soldier is running around with when they have a full combat load.