Question regarding Scout hybrids

[ChaosStar]

Okay I think I have an idea for the final character in the party. If you don't know what I'm talking about please review my previous topics. The character is going to be husband of the Kestral Scout and I had been debating between Ranger or Rogue due to lacking someone who can disable traps and someone who can buff the party. My new idea is to have both members of the Husband/Wife duo to be Scouts, but they would take different paths; one taking Ranger levels and the other Rogue. But here's where I'm kind of stuck which is better for the different styles of combat? The Kestral Scout would stay in the air far out of melee range and shoot the enemy with her crossbow, while the Blinkling Scout would be Blinking everywhere kind of like Nightcrawler. So any advice from the people on this board?
(Here is the link to the book that has the Races of the characters in question if anyone wants to check: http://www.slideshare.net/MewChan/dd-35-bastards-and-bloodline.)

[ChaosStar]

Okay, if anyone was offended by my wording in the last post then I apologize. Anyway this post is to link to the previous threads on the subject for easy checking.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501503-Is-the-Level-Adjustment-too-high
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501933-Druid-or-Spirit-Shaman
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502375-Question-about-Racial-Weapons
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?508311-Inappropiately-sized-weapons
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509656-very-small-PC
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509859-Roles-in-a-Party

Also My computer had crashed after the last thread causing me to redo all of them again. This caused a small shifting in roles that basically makes everyone a little bit of a Face, whether it's because of high Charisma or having points in diplomacy.

[Ludic]

Yes. Yes I do.

Ranger/Scout/Dervish. Full round attack actions while dancing, skirmish damage (make sure you take swift hunter to stack), treat scimitars as a light weapon.

I use mine as a spellless ranger, for more movement speed. But it gets nasty.

This is built on a Human (I usually add the Unseelie Fae template, +0 from Dragon Compendium). Typically I use the Spell-less Varient Ranger from Complete Warrior and the Distracting Attack ACF from PHB2. But it functions fine without those.



ECL
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Feats
Class Feat


1
SCT1
0
0
2
0
Weapon Finesse, Dodge
Skirmish, 1d6, Trapfinding


2
SCT2
1
0
3
0

Battle Fort +1, Uncanny Dodge


3
SCT 3
2
1
3
1
Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Fastmovement +10, Skirmish 1d6, +1AC, Trackless Step


4
RGR1
3
3
5
1
Ability Score
Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy


5
RGR2
4
4
6
1

Combat Style (TWF)


6
RGR3
5
4
6
2
Mobility
Endurance


7
SCT4
6/1
4
7
2
Combat Expertise(B)
Bonus Feat


8
DRV1
7/2
4
9
4

Dervish Dance 1/d, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, AC +1


9
RGR4
8/3
5
10
5
Swift Hunter
Favored Enemy, Skirmish 2d6, +2 AC


10
DRV2
9/4
5
11
5

Fast Moevment +15


11
DRV3
10/5
6
11
5

Spring Attack, Dance 2/Day


12
RGR5
11/6/1
7
11
5
Improved Skirmish
Skirmish 3d6, +2 AC, 5d6 if moving 20 feet


13
RGR6
12/7/2
8
12
6

Combat Style (I.TWF), Favored Enemy, Fast Movement +25


14
DRV4
13/8/3
8
13
7

Dance of Death


15
DRV5
14/9/4
8
13
7
G. TWF
Dance 3/D, Fast Movement +30, AC +2


16
DRV6
15/10/5
9
14
8

Imp. Reaction (+2 Init)


17
DRV7
16/11/6/1
9
14
8

Elaborate Parry, Dance 4/D


18
DRV8
17/12/7/2
9
15
9
Imp Crit/Start Fly-By Chain if able to fly
Fast Movement +35


19
DRV9
18/13/8/3
10
15
9

Tireless Dance, Dance 5/D, AC +3


20
DRV10
19/14/9/4
10
16
10

A Thousand Cuts



You'll want to get Quick Strike Bracers from the MiC to Emulate Full BAB it's also cheaper than Speed on two Scimitars. Level 21 your primary concern is Perfect TWF from Complete Warrior, you you have an OH attack for every MH attack and suffer no TWF Penalties. Then Finish the Fly-By Attack Chain and get Whirlwind Attack (FBA meets Bullrush prereq), and you'll have a crap ton of attacks per target while dancing. Something like 48 Once per day, and half that otherwise (A Thousand Cuts is a /D ability). Plus you get the effects of Great Cleave while dancing and the option to move 5ft with it.

[ChaosStar]

Not to be a jerk but I wasn't asking for a build, also Weapon Finesse requires BAB of +1. I was asking which fighting style meshes with Ranger or Rogue in combination with Scout. One is going Ranger the other is going Rogue, just which their going I'm not sure about due to the different fighting styles they employ.

[Ludic]

Snip.

You did not expressly state that you didn't want a build. You asked for advice. I advised. I also gave you an example of a scout/ranger hybrid, which is what you asked for. Also Weapon Finesse is a moot point since the first levels until you get Dervish you can take however you desire. I cut all the other ways that those cells are built into my excel out because UBL code doesn't support it.

It also answers your question, since a ranger/scout/dervish build would benefit most from being a TWF melee build. You can make other swift hunters, but to be honest, despite what everyone else says about Swift Hunter, staying ranged doesn't net you enough.

I can not advise you on a scout/rogue, because I've never made one, or contemplated making one. But there is probably a theurge feat out there somewhere that you'll want to look into. However, if you are sticking with crossbow, you will want to invest in feats that capitalize on them.

I can tell you, you'll want to dip ranger still to take advantage of the archery style, assuming it works for crossbows. Never bothered looking, typically bows are superior.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Rogues aren't ranged. Never ever use ranged on a rogue. Ranger is good ranged, but you need to use a bow. There's also an acf that makes enemies flat-footed when you attack them. So your kestrel hits them with a shot that makes them flat-footed, and your other guy takes advantage to make a full attack.

[Ludic]

Rogues aren't ranged. Never ever use ranged on a rogue. Ranger is good ranged, but you need to use a bow. There's also an acf that makes enemies flat-footed when you attack them. So your kestrel hits them with a shot that makes them flat-footed, and your other guy takes advantage to make a full attack.

Distracting Attack.

Also, I slightly disagree, a scout/rogue with a ranger dip could in theory be disgustingly effective, for one shot. More so with a ring of invis and a Force bow. From invis you'd be hitting AC 10 get sneak + skirmish. With a legendary animal companion (preferably a tiny one) you can get underfoot combat and confound the big folk shenanigans occurring to. The problem is making use of skirmish effectively since you only get one shot. And at least with a ranger dip you can Swift Hunter for better skirmish to get improved Skirmish.

You have to increase you likelyhood of hitting since you'll only get one attack. Of course, with a bow, the fly-by attack tree is open, which would let you take a full attack action while moving and get skirmish damage on each attack.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Distracting Attack.

Also, I slightly disagree, a scout/rogue with a ranger dip could in theory be disgustingly effective, for one shot. More so with a ring of invis and a Force bow. From invis you'd be hitting AC 10 get sneak + skirmish. With a legendary animal companion (preferably a tiny one) you can get underfoot combat and confound the big folk shenanigans occurring to. The problem is making use of skirmish effectively since you only get one shot. And at least with a ranger dip you can Swift Hunter for better skirmish to get improved Skirmish.

You have to increase you likelyhood of hitting since you'll only get one attack. Of course, with a bow, the fly-by attack tree is open, which would let you take a full attack action while moving and get skirmish damage on each attack.
No but the problem is you only GET one attack. If you built for it, you're more than likely going to hit, but no matter how many d6's you attach to that one arrow, it's not going to be terribly effective. Greater manyshot fixes this problem to an extent, giving all your arrows precision damage, but you still have to be within 30 ft, you still need to catch them flat-footed, after moving 10 ft no less. You also take pretty significant penalties with each extra arrow, and not nearly as many attacks.

Your lower BaB is only going to net you three arrows at level twenty with greater manyshot. 4 if you use an elven double bow which is another can of worms entirely. Compared to 6 melee attacks.

[Ludic]

No but the problem is you only GET one attack. If you built for it, you're more than likely going to hit, but no matter how many d6's you attach to that one arrow, it's not going to be terribly effective. Greater manyshot fixes this problem to an extent, giving all your arrows precision damage, but you still have to be within 30 ft, you still need to catch them flat-footed, after moving 10 ft no less. You also take pretty significant penalties with each extra arrow, and not nearly as many attacks.

Your lower BaB is only going to net you three arrows at level twenty with greater manyshot. 4 if you use an elven double bow which is another can of worms entirely. Compared to 6 melee attacks.

As I pointed out though, it's all moot with the fly-by chain. With improved fly-by attack you're effectivly emulating a dervish's dance, while flying. This with a ring of blinking gives you skirmish + sneak and multiple attacks.

And the melee route without the dervish PrC kills those extra attacks anytime you have to move (unless you can convince your DM to allow travel devotion more than 1/D without endlessly turning it into a feat sink). While Scout/Rogue into Dervish is doable, you still end up with the same precision damage as a swift hunter into Dervish, with a higher feat tax, because you aren't getting TWF for free, plus still needing dodge, mobility, combat expertise, and weapon focus (slashing).

Since the Kestral can naturally fly, it makes sense to make a Swift Hunter into Dervish with Distracting Attack as a melee, and use the Fly By Attack Tree to emulate that on the Scout/Rogue. And then doubling down on Distracting Attack, because the RAW states 'the next attack' not 'the next attack made by another person'. Between them they could continually keep a flanking bonus on everyone. Or just give both of them rings of blinking and never worry about flanking because everyone is always flat footed, and you get a +2 bonus to attack rolls.

Even if the Scout/Rogue has to stay within thirty feet, the fly by attack tree makes it very viable. And the pair are less feat intensive.

If you want to be rude (to the DM) though, you can make both of them naturally flying creatures, and use the fly by tree on both, then the dervish puts out a nasty number of attacks per target.