Gauging the CR of this encounter?

[NRSASD]

Hi Playground! I'm a longtime player of a heavily modified 2E D&D games, but I just switched over to 5E for a taste of something new. We ran our 2nd encounter last night, and I was curious what you guys think about this encounter's suitability for our party of 1st level characters. We're playing in Roll20 (so I can see the math in each roll, but I don't know where the numbers come from) but we aren't allowed to share our stats with one another, so what follows are my best guesses based on how the encounter went down.


Half Orc Barbarian
HP: 15
AC: 15
Dmg: d12+4 (greataxe)
Bonus to hit: +6

Human Knowledge Cleric (me)
Hp: 10
AC:18
Dmg: d8+3 (light xbow)
Bonus to hit: +5
Spells: Cure light wounds, Bless, Radiant fire, Guidance, Thaumaturgy

Kenku Rogue
Hp: 7
AC: 15
Dmg: 2d6+4 (shortbow sneak attack)
Bonus to hit: +6

Tiefling Sorcerer
Hp: 5
Ac:13
Dmg: d8 (chill touch)
Bonus to hit: +3
Spells: Chill Touch, Ray of Frost, Magic Missile, Sleep

Human Monk
Hp: 9
AC: 15
Dmg: 2 attacks of d4+4
Bonus to hit: +6

Our opposition consisted of 7 orcs, which appear to have had the following stats:


6 Orc Grunts
HP: 18
AC: 14
Dmg: d12+3 (greataxe) or d6+3 (javelin)
Bonus to hit: +3

3rd level Orc Vengeance Paladin (?)
HP: 28
AC: 18
Dmg: 2 attacks of d12+4
Bonus to hit: +4
Abilities: Vow of Enmity, granting him advantage on all rolls vs 1 opponent

We barely survived this fight without any fatalities, and with only 4 knockouts. The cleric was completely tapped on healing, the barbarian was only alive due to a critical success on a death save, and the monk, rogue and sorcerer had 4 hp between the three of them. We felt hideously outgunned and outnumbered by the opposition, even when using cover, flanking, and target isolation. It felt like the only thing that saved us was relatively poor rolls on the DM's part and spectacular rolls by our MVP the Barbarian.

Our DM said this was a CR 2 encounter, well within our ability to handle as 1st level characters. I've played in and run high mortality campaigns before, and am a huge fan of XCOM and Xenonauts (where troopers die like goldfish in a blender), but I've rarely felt this underpowered without having done something earlier to deserve it. Maybe I'm just surprised after our DM said that min-maxing or optimizing wouldn't be necessary. Or that our entire battle area is only 120 ft across, which feels very cramped.

Since I'm new to 5E, I just wanted to see what other 5E players and DMs thought of this. As always, thanks for any and all input!

[Fishyninja]

Hi Playground! I'm a longtime player of a heavily modified 2E D&D games, but I just switched over to 5E for a taste of something new. We ran our 2nd encounter last night, and I was curious what you guys think about this encounter's suitability for our party of 1st level characters. We're playing in Roll20 (so I can see the math in each roll, but I don't know where the numbers come from) but we aren't allowed to share our stats with one another, so what follows are my best guesses based on how the encounter went down.


Half Orc Barbarian
HP: 15
AC: 15
Dmg: d12+6 (greataxe)
Bonus to hit: +4

Human Knowledge Cleric (me)
Hp: 10
AC:18
Dmg: d8+4 (light xbow)
Bonus to hit: +4
Spells: Cure light wounds, Bless, Radiant fire, Guidance, Thaumaturgy

Kenku Rogue
Hp: 7
AC: 15
Dmg: 2d6+4 (shortbow sneak attack)
Bonus to hit: +4

Tiefling Sorcerer
Hp: 5
Ac:13
Dmg: d8 (chill touch)
Bonus to hit: +3
Spells: Chill Touch, Ray of Frost, Magic Missile, Sleep

Human Monk
Hp: 9
AC: 15
Dmg: 2 attacks of d4+4
Bonus to hit: +4

Our opposition consisted of 7 orcs, which appear to have had the following stats:


6 Orc Grunts
HP: 18
AC: 14
Dmg: d12+3 (greataxe) or d6+3 (javelin)
Bonus to hit: +3

3rd level Orc Vengeance Paladin (?)
HP: 28
AC: 18
Dmg: 2 attacks of d12+4
Bonus to hit: +4
Abilities: Vow of Enmity, granting him advantage on all rolls vs 1 opponent

We barely survived this fight without any fatalities, and with only 4 knockouts. The cleric was completely tapped on healing, the barbarian was only alive due to a critical success on a death save, and the monk, rogue and sorcerer had 4 hp between the three of them. We felt hideously outgunned and outnumbered by the opposition, even when using cover, flanking, and target isolation. It felt like the only thing that saved us was relatively poor rolls on the DM's part and spectacular rolls by our MVP the Barbarian.

Our DM said this was a CR 2 encounter, well within our ability to handle as 1st level characters. I've played in and run high mortality campaigns before, and am a huge fan of XCOM and Xenonauts (where troopers die like goldfish in a blender), but I've rarely felt this underpowered without having done something earlier to deserve it. Maybe I'm just surprised after our DM said that min-maxing or optimizing wouldn't be necessary. Or that our entire battle area is only 120 ft across, which feels very cramped.

Since I'm new to 5E, I just wanted to see what other 5E players and DMs thought of this. As always, thanks for any and all input!

Hmm I had a similar style fight in one of my campaigns, we had 6 Orcs and a slightly beefier Orc (can't recall the stats) but I believe they were straight out of the MM.

We were all level 3 and had a Ranger, Monk, Warlock and Rogue it was tough but with only one player knockout (the Ranger). We were figthing in an enclosed space, in quite close quarters but the ranger managed to get to high ground giving him advantage.

Were there any odd environmental conditions to consider like lots of cover for the enemies etc?

[pwykersotz]

Heh, yeah, that encounter is pretty deadly. Over 5x Deadly, in fact.

For 5 level 1 characters, your encounter budget is:
Easy: 125 exp
Medium: 250 exp
Hard: 375 exp
Deadly: 500 exp

That Paladin is CR 2 by himself. The adjusted exp value of all the orcs together is 2625. That Paladin would have been a Hard encounter just by himself. A single additional grunt pushes it to deadly. That said, now you have a great measure of what you're capable of!

Edit: If you'd like to break down the math, check out the DMG page 274. Or check out this encounter building tool (http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder). Use an Eye of Gruumsh for the Paladin, they're the same CR.

[Fishyninja]

Heh, yeah, that encounter is pretty deadly. Over 5x Deadly, in fact.

For 5 level 1 characters, your encounter budget is:
Easy: 125 exp
Medium: 250 exp
Hard: 375 exp
Deadly: 500 exp

That Paladin is CR 2 by himself. The adjusted exp value of all the orcs together is 2625. That Paladin would have been a Hard encounter just by himself. A single additional grunt pushes it to deadly. That said, now you have a great measure of what you're capable of!

Hmm I rescind my previous statement, I assume our CR had been lowered to account for small and low level party.

[Ninja_Prawn]

pwykersotz is right, that encounter is ludicrous. It would still be 'deadly' for 5no 4th level characters.

I suspect your DM has misunderstood the CR maths.

I'm also giving your attack/damage bonus numbers some side-eye; they don't look right to me. But that's a minor point.

[NRSASD]

@ Ninja Prawn: Which numbers in specifics look odd?

[pwykersotz]

pwykersotz is right, that encounter is ludicrous. It would still be 'deadly' for 5no 4th level characters.

I suspect your DM has misunderstood the CR maths.

I'm also giving your attack/damage bonus numbers some side-eye; they don't look right to me. But that's a minor point.

Agreed, either the to-hit is too low or the damage is too high. My money is on the to-hit being low.

Edit: To-hit is calculated with either Str or Dex plus your proficiency bonus. So a +4 Str Barbarian would have a to-hit of +6 given that at level 1 your proficiency is +2. That same Barbarian would deal 1d12+4 damage normally, or 1d12+6 in a rage.

The others have the same discrepancy, to-hit and the static pluses to damage are all the same, they should differ because of proficiency.

[NRSASD]

@pwykersotz: Yep, you're right. Adjusted the Party's numbers accordingly. I forgot to add in the proficiency number like you suspected.

@Fishy Ninja, nope, no cover or anything for the enemy. They just appeared at 45 ft away, won initiative, and one shot the monk in the first round. The only cover that existed was cover we created by tipping a wagon over and cowering behind it.

[Fishyninja]

you said you were using Roll 20 right? Could you get a screenshot of your character doing a weapon attack so we can check the numbers, if you you are undure how to get the math to show, just hover over the number that is displayed in the chat bar.

[Rhynear]

Are you running LMoP, because we had the same problem of 3 new players losing initiative and being killed in the first round. We then gained a 4th PC and 2 levels and it was much easier when we won initiative in the one outside. I think its supposed to be 2 encounters in quick succession but if you lose initiative you get rushed really quickly.

[comk59]

Wowzers, that is insanely deadly. Maybe point your DM over to this forum and we can help him with calculating CR, because you guys will die if he keeps throwing these kind of fights at you.

[djreynolds]

Hi Playground! I'm a longtime player of a heavily modified 2E D&D games, but I just switched over to 5E for a taste of something new. We ran our 2nd encounter last night, and I was curious what you guys think about this encounter's suitability for our party of 1st level characters. We're playing in Roll20 (so I can see the math in each roll, but I don't know where the numbers come from) but we aren't allowed to share our stats with one another, so what follows are my best guesses based on how the encounter went down.


Half Orc Barbarian
HP: 15
AC: 15
Dmg: d12+4 (greataxe)
Bonus to hit: +6

Human Knowledge Cleric (me)
Hp: 10
AC:18
Dmg: d8+3 (light xbow)
Bonus to hit: +5
Spells: Cure light wounds, Bless, Radiant fire, Guidance, Thaumaturgy

Kenku Rogue
Hp: 7
AC: 15
Dmg: 2d6+4 (shortbow sneak attack)
Bonus to hit: +6

Tiefling Sorcerer
Hp: 5
Ac:13
Dmg: d8 (chill touch)
Bonus to hit: +3
Spells: Chill Touch, Ray of Frost, Magic Missile, Sleep

Human Monk
Hp: 9
AC: 15
Dmg: 2 attacks of d4+4
Bonus to hit: +6

Our opposition consisted of 7 orcs, which appear to have had the following stats:


6 Orc Grunts
HP: 18
AC: 14
Dmg: d12+3 (greataxe) or d6+3 (javelin)
Bonus to hit: +3

3rd level Orc Vengeance Paladin (?)
HP: 28
AC: 18
Dmg: 2 attacks of d12+4
Bonus to hit: +4
Abilities: Vow of Enmity, granting him advantage on all rolls vs 1 opponent

We barely survived this fight without any fatalities, and with only 4 knockouts. The cleric was completely tapped on healing, the barbarian was only alive due to a critical success on a death save, and the monk, rogue and sorcerer had 4 hp between the three of them. We felt hideously outgunned and outnumbered by the opposition, even when using cover, flanking, and target isolation. It felt like the only thing that saved us was relatively poor rolls on the DM's part and spectacular rolls by our MVP the Barbarian.

Our DM said this was a CR 2 encounter, well within our ability to handle as 1st level characters. I've played in and run high mortality campaigns before, and am a huge fan of XCOM and Xenonauts (where troopers die like goldfish in a blender), but I've rarely felt this underpowered without having done something earlier to deserve it. Maybe I'm just surprised after our DM said that min-maxing or optimizing wouldn't be necessary. Or that our entire battle area is only 120 ft across, which feels very cramped.

Since I'm new to 5E, I just wanted to see what other 5E players and DMs thought of this. As always, thanks for any and all input!

It sounds like a deadly encounter..... but it looks like it was a fun battle. Tipping over the cart was a great idea.

[Captain Panda]

Well, prolly a bit much for a bunch of level ones, but I pretty strongly disagree with all the people suggesting you show the DM the encounter building tools in the DMG as though he did something wrong.

The world should not always scale to the party; not every fight should be fair.

[djreynolds]

Well, prolly a bit much for a bunch of level ones, but I pretty strongly disagree with all the people suggesting you show the DM the encounter building tools in the DMG as though he did something wrong.

The world should not always scale to the party; not every fight should be fair.

I love fights like this, that use every resource available and whatever else to win.

[The Cats]

Well, prolly a bit much for a bunch of level ones, but I pretty strongly disagree with all the people suggesting you show the DM the encounter building tools in the DMG as though he did something wrong.

The world should not always scale to the party; not every fight should be fair.


And not every fight should be unfair. If the DM believes this is what a properly balanced encounter looks like the only time the party will encounter a fair fight is when the DM is trying to throw them a softball.

[Errow]

I don't have much to add except to say that Pwykersotz got the math right, and that the link he posted of Kobold Fight Club is worth its weight in gold. It has been invaluable to me as a DM and I'd highly recommend passing it along to your DM. It's also worth pointing out to the DM that an enemy with a CR equal to that of the group is meant to be a Medium-difficulty encounter. In all honesty, Medium difficulty is not hard at all for many groups, but really depends on the situation. Smart, mobile, ranged enemies with 3/4 cover can make fights much more difficult than they seem on paper. Deadly-difficulty fights are especially dangerous at first level and when your party is low on resources like spell slots or uses of Rage.

Some things that help (and are covered in exhaustive detail in other parts of the forum): Crowd Control spells like Sleep or Tasha's Hideous Laughter at 1st level, Web at 2nd, Hypnotic Pattern or Banishment at higher levels really alter the landscape of combat and make some crazy encounters winnable. But those kinds of things don't usually start happening until levels 5+. It's very cool that your party was able to survive a fight that difficult! The hardest fight I've thrown at my players was about 2.5x Deadly difficulty (and they kinda made it happen themselves).

If the difficulty of the game is such that the players aren't having fun, there's room for improvement. If you're having fun but the difficulty stays that high, I'd recommend making a few extra characters as backups so you can get back in the game quickly.

[pwykersotz]

Well, prolly a bit much for a bunch of level ones, but I pretty strongly disagree with all the people suggesting you show the DM the encounter building tools in the DMG as though he did something wrong.

The world should not always scale to the party; not every fight should be fair.

I think you misunderstand. I only think the DM did something wrong because he said that "this is was CR 2 encounter, well within our ability to handle as 1st level characters". I'm not sure what he was saying with CR 2 encounter, maybe that the most powerful creature in it was CR 2 and that made it able to be handled?

I think it's great to have tougher fights. I have put my own players against similar odds many times, but he seems to be under the mistaken impression that this was a pretty mellow fight. Teaching him what encounters mean in 5e means that if he does this again, it will be purposeful. That's all.