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Stryyke
2016-12-31, 09:37 PM
I was trying to post on another site to recruit females for my game because there is a significant thematic difference between male and female casters. So I asked for females for thematic reasons, and I was shouted down for being an ass. I would like to see if I could get a female player, but I'm at a loss at the best way to ask for female players without sounding like an ass. Can someone please help with this?

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 09:44 PM
What is this signofocant thematic difference?

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 09:44 PM
The thematic difference between male and female casters would seem to indicate you mean the gender of the *characters* which is not necessarily the same as the gender of the *players*.

By and large I don't it would be an issue if you expressed a desire for a party including female characters for story or roleplay reasons. Asking for female players can be troublesome because many people in the gaming community are still pretty sensitive about that kind of thing.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 09:48 PM
I am still lost how either female players or characters would have significant thematic difference between male and female casters. I don't see gender as being signofocant in this regard. So I asked.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 09:48 PM
I was trying to post on another site to recruit females for my game because there is a significant thematic difference between male and female casters. So I asked for females for thematic reasons, and I was shouted down for being an ass. I would like to see if I could get a female player, but I'm at a loss at the best way to ask for female players without sounding like an ass. Can someone please help with this?

Asking for female characters is acceptable. Asking for female players is discrimination.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 09:49 PM
So I've learned :( Is there any way to ask for a female player without offending everyone and their mother?

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 09:50 PM
Its possible he means in the witch/wizard sense as far as common fantasy tropes. Female magic users are much more commonly perceived as evil. Dunno though.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 09:50 PM
I am still lost how either female players or characters would have significant thematic difference between male and female casters. I don't see gender as being signofocant in this regard. So I asked.

Are you familiar with the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan?

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 09:51 PM
Asking for female characters is acceptable. Asking for female players is discrimination.

It's discrimination to ask for female players? Why?

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 09:52 PM
What is this signofocant thematic difference?

Define "signofocant".


It's discrimination to ask for female players? Why?

What. I mean seriously, how in the Nine Hells would it not be discrimination?

I'm not trying to be offensive in how I phrased that statement, but my brain literally just broke and I don't have the brainpower to focus on politeness anymore.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 09:53 PM
So I've learned :( Is there any way to ask for a female player without offending everyone and their mother?

Try explaining it, so we understand this significant thematic difference between male and female casters.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 09:54 PM
Are you familiar with the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan?

I am not familiar with it.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 09:55 PM
Define "signofocant".

I am glad you had something signofocant to contribute.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 09:55 PM
He mentioned wheel of time so I'm assuming he means a setting in which there are tangible differences in how different genders manifest their magic.

Edit: to elaborate, men and women draw their magical power from different sources in that setting with varied effects and consequences as a result.

The problem is that a female player is not necessary for a game to include a female character. If you want female characters, let people know and whoever is interested in that will let you know regardless of their real world gender.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 09:57 PM
Try explaining it, so we understand this significant thematic difference between male and female casters.

In the setting, male casters cannot cast publicly because they grew too powerful and broke the world. Female casters have since become a political force, in addition to tracking down and removing the men's magic. It's kind of a cornerstone in the world, so I thought it would be good to actually have a female, play a female caster.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 09:58 PM
He mentioned wheel of time so I'm assuming he means a setting in which there are tangible differences in how different genders manifest their magic.

I am unfamiliar with this and as such can't really speak to it.


The problem is that a female player is not necessary for a game to include a female character. If you want female characters, let people know and whoever is interested in that will let you know regardless of their real world gender.

Agreed. Asking for a specific gender of player is questionable to say the least.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 09:59 PM
He mentioned wheel of time so I'm assuming he means a setting in which there are tangible differences in how different genders manifest their magic.

Edit: to elaborate, men and women draw their magical power from different sources in that setting with varied effects and consequences as a result.

The problem is that a female player is not necessary for a game to include a female character. If you want female characters, let people know and whoever is interested in that will let you know regardless of their real world gender.

Well no it's not strictly necessary, but because of the importance of the difference I thought it would be good to have an actual female viewpoint.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 09:59 PM
And therein lies the issue. While it's not that far out of the ordinary to have a desire for a female player behind a female character in your game, that is considered discriminatory.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 09:59 PM
In the setting, male casters cannot cast publicly because they grew too powerful and broke the world. Female casters have since become a political force, in addition to tracking down and removing the men's magic. It's kind of a cornerstone in the world, so I thought it would be good to actually have a female, play a female caster.

That does not support your request based on "there is a significant thematic difference between male and female casters". That would be characters not players.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:00 PM
Well no it's not strictly necessary, but because of the importance of the difference I thought it would be good to have an actual female viewpoint.

The problem is there isn;t really a female view point. We are all individuals, not simply our gender.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:02 PM
And therein lies the issue. While it's not that far out of the ordinary to have a desire for a female player behind a female character in your game, that is considered discriminatory.

Ok, I'm seriously confused here. Why is it discriminatory to ask a female to play a female caster? I honestly can't see any possible way that can be discriminatory to women.

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 10:02 PM
I am glad you had something signofocant to contribute.

I pride myself on remaining signofocant to whatever situations may occur. And seriously, my comment there was about as significant to this thread as a difference between male and female there should be to a game.

Signofocant (Adj): Of great signofocance, considered to be highly Post-It-Noteworthy. Ex: Sicarius's comment was highly signofocant to the comment thread.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:03 PM
My understanding is that as a result of the important differences between male and female characters in that setting, and honestly it is a very big deal within that world, he would prefer a genuine female point of view within the party.

That's not a completely unreasonable desire in some ways. The issue is that some people will feel like you may be trying to get a female player for sexist or creepy reasons(not saying that is true in any way) and others may feel that your not being fair to men who may feel they can appropriately play a female character.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:04 PM
My understanding is that as a result of the important differences between male and female characters in that setting, and honestly it is a very big deal within that world, he would prefer a genuine female point of view within the party.

That's not a completely unreasonable desire in some ways. The issue is that some people will feel like you may be trying to get a female player for sexist or creepy reasons(not saying that is true in any way) and others may feel that your not being fair to men who may feel they can appropriately play a female character.
Actually it was a group of women who shouted me down.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:05 PM
I pride myself on remaining signofocant to whatever situations may occur. And seriously, my comment there was about as significant to this thread as a difference between male and female there should be to a game.

Signofocant (Adj): Of great signofocance, considered to be highly Post-It-Noteworthy. Ex: Sicarius's comment was highly signofocant to the comment thread.

Not to this thread it isn't.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:06 PM
Right, that's not terribly surprising for a variety of reasons.

AvatarVecna
2016-12-31, 10:06 PM
Ok, I'm seriously confused here. Why is it discriminatory to ask a female to play a female caster? I honestly can't see any possible way that can be discriminatory to women.

Well, when you say "I want female characters, so I'll only allow female players", are you saying that a male player couldn't properly play a female character?

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:06 PM
Actually it was a group of women who shouted me down.

Understandable.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:08 PM
Ok, I'm seriously confused here. Why is it discriminatory to ask a female to play a female caster? I honestly can't see any possible way that can be discriminatory to women.

It has been explained. It does require a female player to play a female character. No one said it was discriminatory towards women.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:08 PM
Well, when you say "I want female characters, so I'll only allow female players", are you saying that a male player couldn't properly play a female character?

Not at all. In fact, in the post I said "I'm starting a Wheel of Time game on the 7th. All of the slots were already full, but it would be thematically ideal to have a female player."

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:09 PM
I'll grant, my feeling on this is that you're not intending to be sexist, malicious, or discriminatory. I see from your profile that your older, and while I'm not trying to discriminate against my elders, it can have an effect on a person's point of view.

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 10:09 PM
Not to this thread it isn't.

That's exactly my point. My comment wasn't particularly significant to the thread, nor should the gender of a player/character be particularly significant to whether or not they get to play.

Unless you object, in which case I'm curious to know why, in your opinion, that should be particularly significant.


It has been explained. It does require a female player to play a female character. No one said it was discriminatory towards women.

What does require a female player to play a female character? I'm honestly curious.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:10 PM
It has been explained. It does require a female player to play a female character. No one said it was discriminatory towards women.

No males had any problems with the post, it was women who took offense. So it stands to reason that the women feel it's discriminatory towards them.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:11 PM
Not at all. In fact, in the post I said "I'm starting a Wheel of Time game on the 7th. All of the slots were already full, but it would be thematically ideal to have a female player."

Except it wouldn't be. It would be thematically ideal to have a female character.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:11 PM
Sicarius, you don't seem to have any desire to contribute to the topic at hand. If all you have to say are snide comments in an attempt to passive aggressively attack the OP, why are you here?

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:13 PM
Except it wouldn't be. It would be thematically ideal to have a female character.

There will be a female caster either way. You still haven't explained what's wrong with wanting a female player to play a female character. Just saying it's discriminatory doesn't help. I need to understand why it's considered discriminatory.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:14 PM
That's exactly my point. My comment wasn't particularly significant to the thread, nor should the gender of a player/character be particularly significant to whether or not they get to play.

Your point was as clear as mud.


Unless you object, in which case I'm curious to know why, in your opinion, that should be particularly significant.

I can see that the gender of the character could be signofocant, but not the player, which is what I was saying, but I wanted to give the OP a chance to make his position clear.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:14 PM
Stryyke, the question is actually "Why is a female player better or more able to play a female character?"

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 10:15 PM
Sicarius, you don't seem to have any desire to contribute to the topic at hand. If all you have to say are snide comments in an attempt to passive aggressively attack the OP, why are you here?

If I was attempting to passive-aggressively attack someone, I'd be being far more formal about it. I'm honestly just here to ask the questions that I'm curious to know the answer to.

Perhaps if I was somewhat less confused, I'd actually be able to contribute.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:16 PM
Stryyke, the question is actually "Why is a female player better or more able to play a female character?"

Men and women approach things with a different perspective. I would simply like to have a female perspective.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:16 PM
There will be a female caster either way. You still haven't explained what's wrong with wanting a female player to play a female character. Just saying it's discriminatory doesn't help. I need to understand why it's considered discriminatory.

It has nothing to do with requiring a female player to play a female character. It has to do with requiring a female player. It is discrimination to require the player belong to any particular group.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:17 PM
Men and women approach things with a different perspective. I would simply like to have a female perspective.

No they don't. Individuals approach things with a different perspective. Women vary dramatically just as any group does.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:18 PM
So I've learned :( Is there any way to ask for a female player without offending everyone and their mother?

No, because that would be discrimination based on sex and/or gender.

No matter how you word it, the intent is still amoral to many people, myself included.

AvatarVecna
2016-12-31, 10:18 PM
There will be a female caster either way. You still haven't explained what's wrong with wanting a female player to play a female character. Just saying it's discriminatory doesn't help. I need to understand why it's considered discriminatory.

It states (or at least implies) that you don't think a player could play the female character unless the player was also female.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:18 PM
It has nothing to do with requiring a female player to play a female character. It has to do with requiring a female player. It is discrimination to require the player belong to any particular group.

That's ridiculous. If I asked for male players, no one would say a word. If I asked for someone with a specifically non-American perspective, no one would say a word.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:20 PM
If I was attempting to passive-aggressively attack someone, I'd be being far more formal about it. I'm honestly just here to ask the questions that I'm curious to know the answer to.

Perhaps if I was somewhat less confused, I'd actually be able to contribute.

Your post seemed to be only poking fun at the fact I spelled the word significant wrong. Beyond that you were asking the wrong person a very odd question.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:20 PM
That's ridiculous. If I asked for male players, no one would say a word. If I asked for someone with a specifically non-American perspective, no one would say a word.

That is a lie.

I would say a word, both of those are discrimination.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:20 PM
It states (or at least implies) that you don't think a player could play the female character unless the player was also female.

Yes, but it's not discriminatory towards women, who are the people who got pissed.

AvatarVecna
2016-12-31, 10:21 PM
Yes, but it's not discriminatory towards women, who are the people who got pissed.

This may come as surprise to you then, but people are allowed to get upset about injustices that don't affect them directly, if those things still offend their sense of right and wrong.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:21 PM
That's ridiculous. If I asked for male players, no one would say a word. If I asked for someone with a specifically non-American perspective, no one would say a word.

I would have jumped all over your ass. I would have been more upset with that request.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:21 PM
Yes, but it's not discriminatory towards women, who are the people who got pissed.

I am a male.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:21 PM
That is a lie.

I would say a word, both of those are discrimination.

Why? Just because I want a different perspective?

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:22 PM
I would have jumped all over your ass. I would have been more upset with that request.

I would been about equally upset.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:22 PM
Yes, but it's not discriminatory towards women, who are the people who got pissed.

I have a tendency to involve myself in any prejudicial behavior and being a white male it is rarely against me.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:23 PM
A more diplomatic way to make your request might have been... "I'm going to be running a Wheel of Time game. I have enough players but because of the sociopolitical structure of this setting and the way it handles gender, I would enjoy having a player who can bring a feminine perspective to round out our group."

There's still a fair chance that some people might feel insulted, but your at least leaving it more open ended and implicitly accepting that a person of male, female, transgender, asexual, or really any gender identity... Who feels comfortable bringing a feminine character role and perspective into the game would be appreciated.

Essentially your not just saying "hey I need a girl to play a girl." Instead you're saying "I'm looking for someone who can, and desires to, bring a feminine perspective to our game."

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:23 PM
Why? Just because I want a different perspective?

No because you prejudge women to assume they have a particular perspective that is limited to that gender.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:24 PM
Wow. Things sure have changed. You really can't say anything without pissing someone off or being accused of discrimination. I can't even want a different perspective represented without being accused of discrimination. I'm too old for all this. Screw it. I'll just let the guy be the female caster.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:24 PM
Why? Just because I want a different perspective?

1) You are saying that everyone in America would have one perspective.

2) You are saying that no one from any other country could have a perspective that is not common to America.

3) You would be discriminating someone's ability to RP on sex/gender and nationality.

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 10:25 PM
That's ridiculous. If I asked for male players, no one would say a word. If I asked for someone with a specifically non-American perspective, no one would say a word.

Objectively false. However, since that has already been stated by a few other people, I'll drop it.


Your post seemed to be only poking fun at the fact I spelled the word significant wrong. Beyond that you were asking the wrong person a very odd question.

You have a point. At first I didn't have anything to contribute. After I had gotten an amount of sarcasm out of my system, so that I should be able to actually join the conversation without being exceptionally offensive, I started attempting to actually contribute.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:26 PM
Wow. Things sure have changed. You really can't say anything without pissing someone off or being accused of discrimination. I can't even want a different perspective represented without being accused of discrimination. I'm too old for all this. Screw it. I'll just let the guy be the female caster.

Of course you can seek a different perspective. I have done it myself, but rather than saying a perspective that belongs to this group I explained the perspective.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:26 PM
Wow. Things sure have changed. You really can't say anything without pissing someone off or being accused of discrimination. I can't even want a different perspective represented without being accused of discrimination. I'm too old for all this. Screw it. I'll just let the guy be the female caster.

Yeah when you tell a guy it is impossible for him to understand how to RP a women people will call you out on your bulls***.

If someone was actually accusing you of discrimination when you where not, I would be just as adamantly on your side as I was against you here.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:27 PM
You have a point. At first I didn't have anything to contribute. After I had gotten an amount of sarcasm out of my system, so that I should be able to actually join the conversation without being exceptionally offensive, I started attempting to actually contribute.

I appreciate your honesty. Thanks.

JNAProductions
2016-12-31, 10:28 PM
Why do you want specifically female players? Women are pretty dang similar to men-in roleplaying, I pretty much guarantee you, anything a woman can do, a man can do too. (Maybe not EVERY man, but that's why you find good players.)

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:28 PM
Yeah when you tell a guy it is impossible for him to understand how to RP a women people will call you out on your bulls***.

If someone was actually accusing you of discrimination when you where not, I would be just as adamantly on your side as I was against you here.

I didn't say a guy couldn't In fact I explicitly stated in the post that I already had a male to play the part, it would just be thematically ideal to have a female.

Hawkstar
2016-12-31, 10:28 PM
I'd have an easier time buying the "Women don't think differently from men" idea if every man, woman, transman, and transwoman I've ever met didn't prove it completely wrong, even while protesting the idea that they're proving it wrong.

JNAProductions
2016-12-31, 10:29 PM
I didn't say a guy couldn't In fact I explicitly stated in the post that I already had a male to play the part, it would just be thematically ideal to have a female.

Why? If it's in person, I can understand-I can't do a woman voice for crap.

But if it's Play By Post, which it seems to be, anyone can be anyone.

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 10:29 PM
I appreciate your honesty. Thanks.

I figure if I'm going to go against my instincts and not be sarcastic, then I might as well continue going against them and be honest as well.


I'd have an easier time buying the "Women don't think differently from men" idea if every man, woman, transman, and transwoman I've ever met didn't prove it completely wrong, even while protesting the idea that they're proving it wrong.

Except for literally everybody I know, your theory might be correct

Alright, I'm mostly trying not to be sarcastic.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:30 PM
I didn't say a guy couldn't In fact I explicitly stated in the post that I already had a male to play the part, it would just be thematically ideal to have a female.

Not in the OP you didn't. That did not come up until much later.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:30 PM
I would like to ask everyone to calm down a little. I honestly don't think the OP is trying to be negative towards anyone or discriminatory, and accusations and anger are not going do ANYTHING to change his understanding or point of view.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:30 PM
Why do you want specifically female players? Women are pretty dang similar to men-in roleplaying, I pretty much guarantee you, anything a woman can do, a man can do too. (Maybe not EVERY man, but that's why you find good players.)

Because in the setting, being a woman is a very big deal. Because of how important that is, I just thought it would be nice to have a female. I already have a male to play the part. I just think it would be ideal for a female to play the part.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:31 PM
Why? If it's in person, I can understand-I can't do a woman voice for crap.

But if it's Play By Post, which it seems to be, anyone can be anyone.

A better argument, but I still think it fails.

I can't do an Irish accent for crap, am I not allowed to attempt it if my role-playing is good?

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:32 PM
Why? If it's in person, I can understand-I can't do a woman voice for crap.

But if it's Play By Post, which it seems to be, anyone can be anyone.

It's an online, voice only game.

AvatarVecna
2016-12-31, 10:32 PM
A little more to the point, I'm curious why you think a real-life woman would have a better time understanding the perspective of a fantasy woman than a real-life man would have? Sure, the real-life woman shares a gender with the character, but both the IRL woman and IRL man have a much more massive obstacle to overcome in terms of understanding the character: namely, that it's a world with magic, that has had magic for a long time. That kind of thing changes your outlook on life, and nobody IRL regardless of gender actually has a good idea of what that would be like. It's like claiming that, in a game of basketball that ends 201-202, the first team is crap and the second is great, when the truth is that they're both have crap defense.

JNAProductions
2016-12-31, 10:32 PM
A better argument, but I still think it fails.

I can't do an Irish accent for crap, am I not allowed to attempt it if my role-playing is good?

NO! :P

I didn't say I agreed with that, I said it's more understandable.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:32 PM
Because in the setting, being a woman is a very big deal. Because of how important that is, I just thought it would be nice to have a female. I already have a male to play the part. I just think it would be ideal for a female to play the part.

Any objective reason why you think the female could do a better job?

EDIT: If the voice thing bothers you a lot I could help provide some voice changing software.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:34 PM
Any objective reason why you think the female could do a better job?

No. I just think it would be nice.

Zhentarim
2016-12-31, 10:34 PM
I am still lost how either female players or characters would have significant thematic difference between male and female casters. I don't see gender as being signofocant in this regard. So I asked.

One way is that Femme Fatales are almost always female and that trope doesn't work with male characters

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:35 PM
No. I just think it would be nice.

If there is no objective reason, then that means it is subjective (aka feelings in this instance) that would suggest that you have feelings tell you that a man cannot do as good of a job as a women and you acted on them.......

Just think about that for a minute......

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:36 PM
Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be difficult. I guess I just come from a time when women didn't mind being called women.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:36 PM
One way is that Femme Fatales are almost always female and that trope doesn't work with male characters

Qwanch, I know you mean no harm but this is the 3rd time I saw you make a post without reading the thread thoroughly.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:37 PM
If there is no objective reason, then that means it is subjective (aka feelings in this instance) that would suggest that you have feelings tell you that a man cannot do as good of a job as a women and you acted on them.......

Just think about that for a minute......

Of course. I feel that a woman would better relate to the female character. I still don't see how that's discriminatory.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:37 PM
Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be difficult. I guess I just come from a time when women didn't mind being called women.

Do not try to make this into something it is not.

No women is claiming to not be called a women.

This is about a male playing a female character.

Do not try to bulls*** to make a point.

JNAProductions
2016-12-31, 10:38 PM
Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be difficult. I guess I just come from a time when women didn't mind being called women.

And they still don't. But that post seems to miss the point. A lot.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:39 PM
Of course. I feel that a woman would better relate to the female character. I still don't see how that's discriminatory.

So is it not discrimination to say that for say a black man cannot portray a white character because me little feelings said so?

Of course not!

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:39 PM
Do not try to make this into something it is not.

No women is claiming to not be called a women.

This is about a male playing a female character.

Do not try to bulls*** to make a point.

No, as I've already said, it was the women who said I was being descriminatory toward them. No males even weighed in.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:41 PM
Any objective reason why you think the female could do a better job?

Let's be realistic. Overall on average, a woman is more likely to accurately roleplay a woman then a man is. That does not mean that MANY men couldn't competently roleplay a female character. That also doesn't mean that many men I've personally roleplayed with weren't extremely awkward in their attempts to roleplay women.

It is NOT crazy to feel like you're more likely to get a reasonable and confusable portrayal of a woman from an actual woman. That feeling does not necessarily translate into a belief that men can not roleplay women, or vice versa.

If I'm directing a movie, I could obviously fill every role with men. They did it in the past obviously. That doesn't mean it's mostly wrong to prefer to fill the roles of women with female actors. It also doesn't mean that there are no men who couldn't do a fantastic job in a female role.

OP, wanting a feminine perspective isn't wrong. Seeking a likely source of that perspective, IE a woman, isn't necessarily wrong as long as you don't discount other possibilities. Feeling like no one but a woman can accurately roleplay that perspective is wrong.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:41 PM
So is it not discrimination to say that for say a black man cannot portray a white character because me little feelings said so?

Of course not!
But I didn't say that a man can't portray a woman character. I said women could relate better to a female character. "Better" is the key word. You make it seem that this is black and white, while I'm talking about shades of grey.

SeeksForTruth
2016-12-31, 10:42 PM
No, as I've already said, it was the women who said I was being descriminatory toward them. No males even weighed in.

*cough*I'm a male.*cough*

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:44 PM
Let's be realistic. Overall on average, a woman is more likely to accurately roleplay a woman then a man is. That does not mean that MANY men couldn't competently roleplay a female character. That also doesn't mean that many men I've personally roleplayed with weren't extremely awkward in their attempts to roleplay women.

It is NOT crazy to feel like you're more likely to get a reasonable and confusable portrayal of a woman from an actual woman. That feeling does not necessarily translate into a belief that men can not roleplay women, or vice versa.

If I'm directing a movie, I could obviously fill every role with men. They did it in the past obviously. That doesn't mean it's mostly wrong to prefer to fill the roles of women with female actors. It also doesn't mean that there are no men who couldn't do a fantastic job in a female role.

OP, wanting a feminine perspective isn't wrong. Seeking a likely source of that perspective, IE a woman, isn't necessarily wrong as long as you don't discount other possibilities. Feeling like no one but a woman can accurately roleplay that perspective is wrong.

That's not a problem. I've played with guys who played girls, and girls who played guys. All I wanted was authenticity because of how important this particular trait is in the setting. Pretty much the entire setting revolves around male vs female casters.

AvatarVecna
2016-12-31, 10:44 PM
*cough*I'm a male.*cough*

As am I, usually.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:45 PM
*cough*I'm a male.*cough*

In the original post, not this thread. Sorry. I wasn't implying anything about you.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:48 PM
That's not a problem. I've played with guys who played girls, and girls who played guys. All I wanted was authenticity because of how important this particular trait is in the setting. Pretty much the entire setting revolves around male vs female casters.

What people are really getting at here is that a man competently and comfortably playing that female character is no different then a woman competently and comfortably playing that female character.

I don't think you particularly disagree with that idea. My feeling is that you just think it would be more realistic and natural for it to be an actual woman. That's not completely unreasonable.

The statement is being made however, that you're acting in a discriminatory manner because you are seeing a difference between a male/female role-playing the character at all.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:49 PM
So essentially the answer to my question is that there is no way to ask for a female player. Does that sound about right?

JNAProductions
2016-12-31, 10:52 PM
So essentially the answer to my question is that there is no way to ask for a female player. Does that sound about right?

There are ways. Just no way to do it without sounding the part of an ass.

There was a recommendation earlier in the thread for a good way of asking, though.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:52 PM
So essentially the answer to my question is that there is no way to ask for a female player. Does that sound about right?

Correct. If your asking specifically for a female player, at least some people are going to get upset. The best you can do is what I said back on like page two. Let people know your looking for a feminine perspective to fit into the setting and accept that the person you get may not actually be genetically female, but hopefully will be someone who, regardless of gender, can provide the perspective your looking for.

Hawkstar
2016-12-31, 10:52 PM
That's not a problem. I've played with guys who played girls, and girls who played guys. All I wanted was authenticity because of how important this particular trait is in the setting. Pretty much the entire setting revolves around male vs female casters.Actually, if you're looking for setting authenticity, you're better off with a guy playing a woman than a woman playing a woman

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 10:54 PM
Actually, if you're looking for setting authenticity, you're better off with a guy playing a woman than a woman playing a woman

That's not entirely wrong sadly, Robert Jordan got crazy with gender roles and behavior in those books. So many abusive women...

AvatarVecna
2016-12-31, 10:57 PM
So essentially the answer to my question is that there is no way to ask for a female player. Does that sound about right?

"I am running a game in the Wheel Of Time setting, with a focus on the roleplaying portion of things, and it would be to the benefit of the group, and the story, if there was a female caster in the party, due to the political tensions present in the setting. While it's not a hard requirement for the game, as I already have a player who has expressed a willingness to play in such a position, and whom I believe could perform the role well, due to the focus on roleplaying I would prefer for a female player to play the female character, if such a player could be found, and that would free up that other player to play something they might desire more."

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 10:57 PM
Well thank you all for your perspectives. This has been quite a learning experience. I can't say that I understand, but I can accept.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 10:58 PM
Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to be difficult. I guess I just come from a time when women didn't mind being called women.

They still don't.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:02 PM
They still don't.

I could give you a list of quotes that contradict that statement.

I can't say woman because that indicates female dependence on men.

I can't say ladies because apparently that means "ladies of the night" or hookers

I can't say female for some reason I don't understand, but I was told "that makes my vagina shrivel"

JNAProductions
2016-12-31, 11:03 PM
I could give you a list of quotes that contradict that statement.

I can't say woman because that indicates female dependence on men.

I can't say ladies because apparently that means "ladies of the night" or hookers

I can't say female for some reason I don't understand, but I was told "that makes my vagina shrivel"

I don't see any of those examples here.

AnachroNinja
2016-12-31, 11:04 PM
Anyone else kind of curious to read the thread that OP posted originally?

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:05 PM
I don't see any of those examples here.

It was on a post on a different site. I had to pull it 10 minutes after I put it up, because I didn't want to get a bad rep.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 11:06 PM
I could give you a list of quotes that contradict that statement.

Feel free.


I can't say woman because that indicates female dependence on men.

Sure you can. It has nothing to do with a dependence on men.


I can't say ladies because apparently that means "ladies of the night" or hookers

Not in the least, it does imply a certain behavior, but not that one.


I can't say female for some reason I don't understand, but I was told "that makes my vagina shrivel"

You can say female all you like. I would like to see the context in which you used it.

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 11:07 PM
I could give you a list of quotes that contradict that statement.

I can't say woman because that indicates female dependence on men.

I can't say ladies because apparently that means "ladies of the night" or hookers

I can't say female for some reason I don't understand, but I was told "that makes my vagina shrivel"

...I have literally never seen anything like that. You said it was on your original post, that inspired you to make this thread?

Ceralune
2016-12-31, 11:08 PM
Huh. As a woman who has spent a lot of time in the performing arts, I definitely can't think less of you for wanting a woman to play a female "role," especially with the way you described your situation. But then again, I'm pretty used to casting according to gender, at least on a real-life basis. Yes, people of both genders are capable of portraying a female character accurately. But sometimes certain roles will call for a more specific portrayal. And that's how life is. Personality is nuanced, and some nuances are more prominent depending on gender.

I think what AnachroNinja suggested is a good way to go about it. Also, just adding more about what kind of role you have in mind might help you justify wanting a girl to be playing that role. If someone came up to me and said, "I'm running a game, and I want a girl player for 'thematic reasons,'" I'd give them a funny look. If someone came up to me and said, "I'm running a game where I'm telling this story, and this is how the sociopolitical setting is and this is how this group of casters is normally characterized, and thus I'd prefer a girl," that makes more sense.

Women don't mind being called women. c: But clarity helps. The way you phrased this in the OP makes me feel almost like you're looking for a token woman, and women want to be valued for more than just their... "womanness."

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:12 PM
Anyone else kind of curious to read the thread that OP posted originally?

Like I said I had to pull it. I want to continue being a GM over there, and I didn't want people to think negatively about me. Let me see if I can remember exactly how I worded it.

"Looking for female for Wheel of Time campaign

I already have enough people to fill the slots, but it would be thematically ideal to have a female player for a female character."

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:17 PM
...I have literally never seen anything like that. You said it was on your original post, that inspired you to make this thread?

Yes. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it has something to do with the way I come across. I don't know. If it was just the way I come across, I was hoping people here in the playground could help me understand why I'm coming across in some offensive way.

HappyMerecat
2016-12-31, 11:22 PM
Yes. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it has something to do with the way I come across. I don't know. If it was just the way I come across, I was hoping people here in the playground could help me understand why I'm coming across in some offensive way.

Well it came across as pointlessly discriminatory because you didn't explain anything. You were also discriminatory.

Ceralune
2016-12-31, 11:22 PM
Like I said I had to pull it. I want to continue being a GM over there, and I didn't want people to think negatively about me. Let me see if I can remember exactly how I worded it.

"Looking for female for Wheel of Time campaign

I already have enough people to fill the slots, but it would be thematically ideal to have a female player for a female character."

The problem with the word "female" is that it means something different from "woman." "Female" can refer to anything - cats, dogs, aardvarks, what have you. Whereas "woman" refers specifically to a human being.

So while the meaning comes across fine, you're kind of... indirectly infringing on their humanity, in a way?

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:26 PM
The problem with the word "female" is that it means something different from "woman." "Female" can refer to anything - cats, dogs, aardvarks, what have you. Whereas "woman" refers specifically to a human being.

So while the meaning comes across fine, you're kind of... indirectly infringing on their humanity, in a way?

Ok. I think that's silly, but at least that's something I can understand. Thanks.

Ceralune
2016-12-31, 11:29 PM
Ok. I think that's silly, but at least that's something I can understand. Thanks.

It might be a bit of a stretch to mention this, but of course, no one wants to be treated as less than human. Women don't want to be objectified. So when you say you're "looking for a female," it makes it sound less like you're looking for a thinking, complicated, aware human being and more like you're just looking for that token girl to "round out" your group.

Hawkstar
2016-12-31, 11:31 PM
It might be a bit of a stretch to mention this, but of course, no one wants to be treated as less than human.
But I'm a dragon.

Ceralune
2016-12-31, 11:32 PM
But I'm a dragon.

No one minus Hawkstar. c:

JNAProductions
2016-12-31, 11:32 PM
Less than. Dragons are more than. :P

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 11:34 PM
It might be a bit of a stretch to mention this, but of course, no one wants to be treated as less than human. Women don't want to be objectified. So when you say you're "looking for a female," it makes it sound less like you're looking for a thinking, complicated, aware human being and more like you're just looking for that token girl to "round out" your group.

Honestly, that was basically the impression I was getting through most of this thread.


But I'm a dragon.

We'll take your word for it.

And dragons would especially not want to be treated as less tha human, as they tend to consider themselves to be more.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:35 PM
It might be a bit of a stretch to mention this, but of course, no one wants to be treated as less than human. Women don't want to be objectified. So when you say you're "looking for a female," it makes it sound less like you're looking for a thinking, complicated, aware human being and more like you're just looking for that token girl to "round out" your group.

AHHHH! I think I see what you are saying. Ok. I can accept that. And my tendency to be efficient with my words kind of exacerbates that. I never even thought of it that way. Thank you.

Hawkstar
2016-12-31, 11:36 PM
:smalltongue:

But seriously. I admit I tend to use "Male" and "Female" more than "Man" and "Woman" because I come from a corner of the internet where people represent themselves as all sorts of nonhuman things, and it's more or less an unconscious distinction (Also, 'man' carries socially mature and masculine baggage and implications, and likewise 'woman' carries socially mature and feminine baggage and implications. And "Boy and "Girl" come off as condescending, so I find myself using the more species- and socially-neutral 'male' and 'female')

Sicarius Victis
2016-12-31, 11:39 PM
:smalltongue:

But seriously. I admit I tend to use "Male" and "Female" more than "Man" and "Woman" because I come from a corner of the internet where people represent themselves as all sorts of nonhuman things, and it's more or less an unconscious distinction (Also, 'man' carries socially mature and masculine baggage and implications, and likewise 'woman' carries socially mature and feminine baggage and implications. And "Boy and "Girl" come off as condescending, so I find myself using the more species- and socially-neutral 'male' and 'female')

And I just try not to use gender-specific descriptions at all, besides the occasional her/him.

ptdapen
2016-12-31, 11:42 PM
Less than. Dragons are more than. :P

Seconded.

But I'll chime in: to be honest, the notion of "looking for female player" turns off my interest in a game a lot. I'm a girl but I don't advertise it on here very often. In roleplaying games, I just want people to look at my character and that's it.

Ceralune
2016-12-31, 11:46 PM
AHHHH! I think I see what you are saying. Ok. I can accept that. And my tendency to be efficient with my words kind of exacerbates that. I never even thought of it that way. Thank you.

My pleasure. c: If/when you decide to give recruitment for that game another go, best of luck.


:smalltongue:

But seriously. I admit I tend to use "Male" and "Female" more than "Man" and "Woman" because I come from a corner of the internet where people represent themselves as all sorts of nonhuman things, and it's more or less an unconscious distinction (Also, 'man' carries socially mature and masculine baggage and implications, and likewise 'woman' carries socially mature and feminine baggage and implications. And "Boy and "Girl" come off as condescending, so I find myself using the more species- and socially-neutral 'male' and 'female')


And I just try not to use gender-specific descriptions at all, besides the occasional her/him.

I think context and audience are a big part of that. Trying to advertise specifically to a female population while referring to them as just "females" is different than referring to people who already represent themselves as nonhuman things.

And, of course, I'm talking about the noun form.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:47 PM
Seconded.

But I'll chime in: to be honest, the notion of "looking for female player" turns off my interest in a game a lot. I'm a girl but I don't advertise it on here very often. In roleplaying games, I just want people to look at my character and that's it.

For you, what is it about that specific request do you find distasteful? This is an interesting topic. My wife died 13 years ago, and apparently my social skill in relation to women has atrophied.

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:49 PM
My pleasure. c: If/when you decide to give recruitment for that game another go, best of luck.

LOL I already have 32 people vying for 5 spots. You all have convinced me to not even attempt to get a woman for the group, so I think recruiting is pretty much done.

Ceralune
2016-12-31, 11:54 PM
LOL I already have 32 people vying for 5 spots. You all have convinced me to not even attempt to get a woman for the group, so I think recruiting is pretty much done.

@.@ My mistake then, have a good game lol. Whenever you finish sorting through 32 applications. D8

Stryyke
2016-12-31, 11:59 PM
@.@ My mistake then, have a good game lol. Whenever you finish sorting through 32 applications. D8

It's not so bad. I require that everyone come to me with a character concept and a background consistent with the posted information. I've already turned 4 people away, and several others didn't even read the background. But then I get to read 20+ really good character ideas and backgrounds. It's like reading a good book. The only part that sux is having to tell most of them that I don't have room. I hate turning people away, but I over extended before and know that it's for the best.

Dimers
2017-01-01, 12:37 AM
There will be a female caster either way. You still haven't explained what's wrong with wanting a female player to play a female character. Just saying it's discriminatory doesn't help. I need to understand why it's considered discriminatory.

Lemme take a crack at this. It's discriminatory because it implies that women and men are, in the real world, so fundamentally different from each other that only a woman could play a female character correctly, and that any woman would -- by virtue of her genitalia alone -- play a female character better than any man. Even when that's not what you mean, it can be seen from that viewpoint. But that's just why it's discriminatory -- seeing a difference -- not why it's insulting to women.

Women want to be considered people. By reducing the value of a woman's input to what exists between her legs (since that's the only stated requirement to be "thematically ideal"), you turn a person into a vagina. Seriously. That's why it's the women who jumped on you.

As an example:


I'm a girl but I don't advertise it on here very often. In roleplaying games, I just want people to look at my character and that's it.

Doesn't want her IRL femaleness to be what matters in a game.

I'm male. If someone posted here on GitP asking for male players for a male character, I'd skip right past that recruitment thread. Because there's more to me than being male, and if "male" is all it takes for the recruiter, that would make me less than a person.


Men and women approach things with a different perspective.

People are people. Individual differences vastly outweigh any possible cultural or biological gender influence. This is scientific fact, even if you happen to see trends in the female people in your part of the world. (Which is as likely to be confirmation bias as anything.)

Edited to add:


My wife died 13 years ago, and apparently my social skill in relation to women has atrophied.

It may just be that women are now more likely to assert their right to do more than fill a gender role ... not necessarily a change in what you're doing.

SeeksForTruth
2017-01-01, 12:38 AM
Well thank you all for your perspectives. This has been quite a learning experience. I can't say that I understand, but I can accept.

Um...not to be nit-picky but I would much rather you understand a perspective than accept it, ESPECIALLY if it implies you would accept a position without understanding it.


It might be a bit of a stretch to mention this, but of course, no one wants to be treated as less than human. Women don't want to be objectified. So when you say you're "looking for a female," it makes it sound less like you're looking for a thinking, complicated, aware human being and more like you're just looking for that token girl to "round out" your group.

Meh, I am more focused on treating sentience well rather than any particular species of which most members have sentience.


And I just try not to use gender-specific descriptions at all, besides the occasional her/him.

Meh, I just use they if I do nt know, but I think people getting upset if I make a simple mistake to be silly. I do not care if someone calls me she or they, I may correct them on she.

Hawkstar
2017-01-01, 12:39 AM
Hormones, not genitalia. Hormones are the part that influence thought and perception. That, and cultural experience.

BarbieTheRPG
2017-01-01, 01:24 AM
--- apparently my social skill in relation to women has atrophied.
This a billion times.

Sicarius Victis
2017-01-01, 01:34 AM
Um...not to be nit-picky but I would much rather you understand a perspective than accept it, ESPECIALLY if it implies you would accept a position without understanding it.

Personally, I have to agree with you here. Accepting things without understanding them is one of modern humanity's biggest faults.


Meh, I just use they if I do nt know, but I think people getting upset if I make a simple mistake to be silly. I do not care if someone calls me she or they, I may correct them on she.

For me, it's less that I don't want to annoy people and more that I just don't want to bother. I don't care what gender other people are, what gender they consider themself, what gender they call me/believe I am, or anything like that. I just don't care about gender, and honestly don't particularly understand why other people do care so much. It doesn't mean anything particularly important, and is generally only used as a method of labelling people. I prefer to describe people based off of personality, and it works a lot better for me.

Honestly, life is just a lot easier when you don't try to label people.

Leon
2017-01-01, 02:23 AM
Because in the setting, being a woman is a very big deal. Because of how important that is, I just thought it would be nice to have a female. I already have a male to play the part. I just think it would be ideal for a female to play the part.

If you have someone to play the part then your set ~ Restricting what people can and cannot play based on gender is a lil silly in what is a Roleplay Game ~ being a woman in the setting may be a big deal but by no means should it require a actual woman to play the role.

WindStruck
2017-01-01, 02:41 AM
Well, I want to see a game where only elves in real life may play elves in d&d. :smallwink:

imo the OPs "transgression" was only some naivety. What I find extremely concerning is the violent reaction.

SeeksForTruth
2017-01-01, 03:01 AM
Well, I want to see a game where only elves in real life may play elves in d&d. :smallwink:

imo the OPs "transgression" was only some naivety. What I find extremely concerning is the violent reaction.

I think that a strong criticism is quite different from a violent reaction.

Ceralune
2017-01-01, 04:27 AM
Meh, I am more focused on treating sentience well rather than any particular species of which most members have sentience.

Of course. All life should be treated with respect. But I think few would argue that we shouldn't treat humans somewhat differently than other species. My point was that referring to women as "females" is, in a way, dehumanizing by calling attention to only their gender, not the mind or person. It is not the same as "women" (which I don't understand why those people from earlier said implies "dependent on man" >.> ), and it is likely part of the reason why those women got offended, aside from the fact that requesting a specific gender/race/etc. will almost always appear at least a little discriminatory. No matter what your intentions might be.

I appreciate that Stryyke took the time to ask about this rather than ignoring it and just telling himself they were getting offended for no reason. There's nothing wrong with criticism, when it's focused on being helpful to the person asking for it. I don't think Stryyke meant any harm, he just didn't know.

LuckyStrike
2017-01-01, 07:07 AM
I enjoyed how the tone of the thread changed a bit when a woman chimed in with a female perspective.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 08:17 AM
It is not so much about the words you use as your attitude in using them. People are individuals and suggesting otherwise is likely to upset people.

kladams707
2017-01-01, 08:55 AM
My two cents:

I'm a guy but I have played female characters before. The thing is, I sometimes feel like perhaps I'm playing the character as a woman written as a man. I have a tendency to have a hard time differentiating my characters. I feel like I wouldn't notice if I made my women characters male and I often forget I am playing a woman.

Now, maybe that's a good thing because characters shouldn't be defined by their genders. That said, men and women are always going to offer up different perspectives, even if we have individual ones as well. That's just the nature of the current world and how we experience it. And I think this is where the OP is coming from. That women will have experiences men won't and can indeed offer a different perspective on a female character.

That being said, I agree asking a female player to play a female character is discriminatory. What if she doesn't want to play a female character? What if she wants to roleplay a male character? Limiting player choice based on their gender is what makes it discriminating. Just as I should play a female character if I want, a female player should have the same freedom of choice.


Oh, and as a note, you really shouldn't be calling women "females". Using "female" as a noun has a history of derogation.

Addy
2017-01-01, 01:13 PM
Hormones, not genitalia. Hormones are the part that influence thought and perception. That, and cultural experience.

This annoys me just a bit. It feels akin to telling me that you expect me to act a certain way and I cannot control how I act, think, or do. Because I have estrogen as opposed to testostorone does that mean that I am expected to get emotional and breakdown when things don't go my way?

I am sure it wasn't meant in that way, but this certainly feels as if it is trying to place people into per determined roles based upon their gender.

As for asking for female gamers... I would avoid like the plague. My expectation would be that the person is either going to have ulterior motives (sexual) or make some rather unfortunate assumptions about what females can and cannot do.

That being said, my expectations would be skewed and based of or previous experiences, so it is far from scientific and little more than a stereotype in and of itself.

Hawkstar
2017-01-01, 01:28 PM
This annoys me just a bit. It feels akin to telling me that you expect me to act a certain way and I cannot control how I act, think, or do. Because I have estrogen as opposed to testostorone does that mean that I am expected to get emotional and breakdown when things don't go my way?Nope. But the 'cultural experience' clause did correctly expect you (Or another woman) to make this sort of post. However, you CAN expect men to suddenly get either more polite, or aggressively defensive when a woman comes into play. And, as my trans friends can attest, a change in hormones does bring a change in personality and perspective.
As for asking for female gamers... I would avoid like the plague. My expectation would be that the person is either going to have ulterior motives (sexual) or make some rather unfortunate assumptions about what females can and cannot do.And this puts gaming groups currently full of guys that want more diversity in a catch-22.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 01:58 PM
2 points:
1)- This is one of the strangest conversations in the Finding New Players forum.
2)- Why is this conversation in the Finding New Players forum?

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 02:03 PM
2 points:
1)- This is one of the strangest conversations in the Finding New Players forum.
2)- Why is this conversation in the Finding New Players forum?

Heck, I didn't really know which forum was the "right" forum, but since it had specifically to do with recruiting new players, I just went there.

If nothing else, it has certainly given people a venue to be open about gender stereotypes in table-top gaming.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 02:09 PM
Oh, and as a note, you really shouldn't be calling women "females". Using "female" as a noun has a history of derogation.

However I have been reamed out for every single variation of refering to women. At the end of the day, if you refer to female humans as a group, what is the proper thing to call them?

I know that everyone gets up in arms about discrimination for classifying people, but we do it all the time. I am sexually attracted to women. Has it suddenly become taboo desire a woman? Isn't that just as much discrimination as wanting a woman at the table? The world has just become so confusing.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 02:51 PM
Oh, something else I've noticed:

If you were to end your posts two/three sentences earlier you would probably not catch as much flack. The tail end of your posts tends towards giving too much information, being suspicious, being defensive, or being weird in some indescribable way.


However I have been reamed out for every single variation of refering to women. At the end of the day, if you refer to female humans as a group, what is the proper thing to call them?

I know that everyone gets up in arms about discrimination for classifying people, but we do it all the time.

This right here was golden on its own.


I am sexually attracted to women. Has it suddenly become taboo desire a woman? Isn't that just as much discrimination as wanting a woman at the table? The world has just become so confusing.

This part is where things got weird. Nothing wrong with having a sexual orientation and being proud of it, but it's kind of odd you tossed that in alongside "and so I want women at my gaming table."

We understand there was no strange intent there, but we're all still eyeing you like that panting dude in a a classic 'Flasher' trenchcoat. Stop bringing your trenchcoat, mate.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:02 PM
@Doxkid

And here we have another problem. Several people above told me I need to explain myself more, and you are saying to explain myself less. This is the confusing part of this whole situation; everyone has completely contradictory advice. If it were just a case of my personal interactions, I wouldn't worry about it. But when I am trying to recruit, I want the posting to be as non-offensive as possible.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:05 PM
However I have been reamed out for every single variation of refering to women. At the end of the day, if you refer to female humans as a group, what is the proper thing to call them?

I know that everyone gets up in arms about discrimination for classifying people, but we do it all the time. I am sexually attracted to women. Has it suddenly become taboo desire a woman? Isn't that just as much discrimination as wanting a woman at the table? The world has just become so confusing.

It is not so much about classifying them as much as assuming that women are all the same as are all men. The thing is we are all individuals.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:08 PM
@Doxkid

And here we have another problem. Several people above told me I need to explain myself more, and you are saying to explain myself less. This is the confusing part of this whole situation; everyone has completely contradictory advice. If it were just a case of my personal interactions, I wouldn't worry about it. But when I am trying to recruit, I want the posting to be as non-offensive as possible.

Again it is not about explaining yourself less. The last sentence speaks to sexual attraction, which suggests there were sexual reasons for selecting a woman player. If that is the case then that is the issue, not explaining yourself more.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:10 PM
HappyMerecat

An not a single time have I indicated that all women are equal. When I am recruiting, there are things that I use to narrow down the field. For instance, I only accept players who speak English. Do you think that means that I feel non-English speakers are substandard? Absolutely not. When I am putting a group together, I don't have one really strong personality with a bunch of reserved personalities. Do you think that means I feel strong personalities can't play? Of course not.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 03:11 PM
That is because those people are fairly clever and I and extremely lazy. Where others would carefully choose words to make sure that what they mean to say is understood, I get tired of typing and stop as soon as I think things will work out.

Your original recruitment probably would have gone fine if you vaguely said "Looking for a good female perspective of this game world." and when asked to clarify you only said something like "I want to see well written and well role-played female characters. It's a game-world thing, ya know?"

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:14 PM
Again it is not about explaining yourself less. The last sentence speaks to sexual attraction, which suggests there were sexual reasons for selecting a woman player. If that is the case then that is the issue, not explaining yourself more.

**facepalm** Since when can people not say the word sex without everyone thinking they're mentally undressing people, or flashing them. If I say "apricot" do you think that I'm eating apples? If I say "truck", do you think I'm currently in an auto-body shop polishing my porche? How do people make these crazy connections.

JNAProductions
2017-01-01, 03:15 PM
You brought it up, most entirely unrelated to anything that had been said before.

It's not that you said "sex", it's that you said sex without having any apparent reason to.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:16 PM
HappyMerecat

An not a single time have I indicated that all women are equal. When I am recruiting, there are things that I use to narrow down the field. For instance, I only accept players who speak English. Do you think that means that I feel non-English speakers are substandard? Absolutely not. When I am putting a group together, I don't have one really strong personality with a bunch of reserved personalities. Do you think that means I feel strong personalities can't play? Of course not.

Equal is not the issue, I never said equal. I said the same. You have stated a number of times without retraction that there is a feminine point of view they bring. That implies there is a sameness to them.

You choose English speaking players because they need to communicate.
If you avoid a personality that won't get along with others, that is also an element that will allow the game to move smoothly.

Both of these are not about assuming something about a group other than truisms. If you said people of group A could not get along with group B then we would have an issue, but a persoanlity that you feel won't get along with the group is not a group per say.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:17 PM
That is because those people are fairly clever and I and extremely lazy. Where others would carefully choose words to make sure that what they mean to say is understood, I get tired of typing and stop as soon as I think things will work out.

Your original recruitment probably would have gone fine if you vaguely said "Looking for a good female perspective of this game world." and when asked to clarify you only said something like "I want to see well written and well role-played female characters. It's a game-world thing, ya know?"

And if there is a reason I specifically wanted a woman player? Let's say it's something as simple as thinking it would be non-immersive to have a man voicing female lines.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 03:17 PM
You brought it up, most entirely unrelated to anything that had been said before.

It's not that you said "sex", it's that you said sex without having any apparent reason to.

Eyup. This.

JNAProductions
2017-01-01, 03:18 PM
And if there is a reason I specifically wanted a woman player? Let's say it's something as simple as thinking it would be non-immersive to have a man voicing female lines.

Then you should've INCLUDED that reason.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:22 PM
You brought it up, most entirely unrelated to anything that had been said before.

It's not that you said "sex", it's that you said sex without having any apparent reason to.

Unrelated?! Do you honestly think that what I said was unrelated?! I used that example as a parallel to my point, to highlight the incongruity of being offended by one, and not by the other. Goodness!!!!!! I am simply beside myself right now with disbelief.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:22 PM
And if there is a reason I specifically wanted a woman player? Let's say it's something as simple as thinking it would be non-immersive to have a man voicing female lines.

Then state it and be judged on the merits of your actual reasons. Lots of people play via voice and don't focus on the gender of the player. This is role-playing. People often don't sound like the gender, nationality, species etc of the character they play. Your reason seems trite.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:24 PM
Then you should've INCLUDED that reason.

I felt that I had when I added the phrase "for thematic reasons." Apparently, though, that wasn't specific enough. But I also shouldn't explain more either, so I'm really at a loss. There is no possible way I can pick the one word that wont offend someone. Everyone gets offended. Maybe I just overestimated the intelligence of people to understand "big words."

AnachroNinja
2017-01-01, 03:25 PM
It's worth noting that several people in this thread are doing damage to their own cause by treating this situation in such a way that it comes across as : "You asked for as female character, you must have ulterior motives!"

"You used an example that had to do with romantic desire, even though it was not phrased as having anything to do with the role-playing aspect, you must be some sort of deviant!"

Just because someone has a view different then your own does not make it appropriate to make judgements on their character or behavior in other tangentially related ways. That's being just as prejudiced towards him, if not more so, then you claim he is being towards women.

At no point has he claimed all women are the same. Or that having lady parts makes you irrational and crazy. Or that a man couldn't ever roleplay a woman.

The OP stated a preference for a female player because he personally felt it would bring an accurate and interesting perspective to his game that takes place in a very gender stratified setting. He even stated outright that he had no issue with a man playing that role, he just thought a woman would probably do it better, which on average is probably accurate.

Please stop reading further into the OPs character and life then is actually justified by that information. It's insulting and damaging to others perceptions of your own point of view.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:27 PM
**facepalm** Since when can people not say the word sex without everyone thinking they're mentally undressing people, or flashing them. If I say "apricot" do you think that I'm eating apples? If I say "truck", do you think I'm currently in an auto-body shop polishing my porche? How do people make these crazy connections.

You didn't just say the word sex. I use the word sex often and also have characters sexually attracted to other characters, but you specifically went to sexual attraction in a thread where that is part of the creepy factor.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-01, 03:29 PM
Great Modthulhu: The Finding Players (Recruitment) section is for actively recruiting games. This topic is more properly suited for the general Roleplaying Games forum, and has been moved there.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:29 PM
Sorry about that. I'm just getting frustrated. There just doesn't seem to be any way to express a preference without everyone taking it completely out of context, and judging me for it.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:30 PM
I felt that I had when I added the phrase "for thematic reasons." Apparently, though, that wasn't specific enough. But I also shouldn't explain more either, so I'm really at a loss. There is no possible way I can pick the one word that wont offend someone. Everyone gets offended. Maybe I just overestimated the intelligence of people to understand "big words."

And as my first post pointed out "for thematic reasons" is largely meaningless on its own. I asked specifically what it meant in the very first post after the OP. This is not about words offending it is about intent and making it clear.

It is also not about big words, it is about you being clear. Now keep in mind if your intent is offensive it will be taken as such.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 03:31 PM
And if there is a reason I specifically wanted a woman player? Let's say it's something as simple as thinking it would be non-immersive to have a man voicing female lines.

I understand you perfectly. Both in your mind and in reality this is really a straight forward thing. You mean no harm at all. X is important in the game, so it would be great if someone who really understood X could post about it. You just want to see X done justice. In this case it's a gender. Not a big deal.

Unfortunately, when you type the words out they don't look right.


HappyMerecat

An not a single time have I indicated that all women are equal. When I am recruiting, there are things that I use to narrow down the field. For instance, I only accept players who speak English. Do you think that means that I feel non-English speakers are substandard? Absolutely not. When I am putting a group together, I don't have one really strong personality with a bunch of reserved personalities. Do you think that means I feel strong personalities can't play? Of course not.

Also you sometimes leave a word out, or place it in a strange location.

"An not a single time have I indicated that all women are equal." looks bad. I understand you mean to say "I have never indicated I think women are all the same." but the sentence reads strangely and can very easily be misconstrued. And when someone demands an explanation you say another thing that can be misconstrued.

Basically you living a comedy skit right now. If this were Abbott and Costello, then you would currently be Costello.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:32 PM
Great Modthulhu: The Finding Players (Recruitment) section is for actively recruiting games. This topic is more properly suited for the general Roleplaying Games forum, and has been moved there.


Sorry about that. Totally my fault. I took a stab at it, and guessed wrong. I'll try to be more cognizant in the future.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:34 PM
"An not a single time have I indicated that all women are equal." looks bad. I understand you mean to say "I have never indicated I think women are all the same." but the sentence reads strangely and can very easily be misconstrued. And when someone demands an explanation you say another thing that can be misconstrued.


This is fantastic! Ok, what do you find weird about the first phrase? What about it can be misconstrued? I honestly don't see it (other than inadvertently leaving out the "d" in "and".

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:37 PM
Sorry about that. I'm just getting frustrated. There just doesn't seem to be any way to express a preference without everyone taking it completely out of context, and judging me for it.

Because your preference has no real validity. If people picked people in voice games so they sounded the part there would be a ton of people getting left out. If people playing face to face also had to look the part then most of us would be left out.

If your reasons are unreasonable then you will be called on it. It is not about how to express those reasons.

Hiro Protagonest
2017-01-01, 03:39 PM
Ah, this is the "original poster is still active in this thread and fighting stubbornly" type of thread. Rarer than the "other posters get into an unrelated argument about genders and sexuality" type of thread, but not unheard of.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:39 PM
Because your preference has no real validity. If people picked people in voice games so they sounded the part there would be a ton of people getting left out. If people playing face to face also had to look the part then most of us would be left out.

If your reasons are unreasonable then you will be called on it. It is not about how to express those reasons.

And here you have revealed your own bias. You just suggested that my personal preferences are not valid. So now can I get pissed at you. Especially since you've been rather antagonistic to me this entire time.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:40 PM
Ah, this is the "original poster is still active in this thread and fighting stubbornly" type of thread. Rarer than the "other posters get into an unrelated argument about genders and sexuality" type of thread, but not unheard of.

Not fighting. Simply trying to figure out acceptable ways of recruiting specific groups of people.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:40 PM
This is fantastic! Ok, what do you find weird about the first phrase? What about it can be misconstrued? I honestly don't see it (other than inadvertently leaving out the "d" in "and".

The first thing is you used the word equal whereas what you are responding to did not. I used the word same. I don't understand how your understanding of all woman being the same would really relate to all women being equal. When a word gets swapped like that is suggests to me that you are either completely misunderstanding or have something else in the back of your mind.

SeeksForTruth
2017-01-01, 03:44 PM
Unrelated?! Do you honestly think that what I said was unrelated?! I used that example as a parallel to my point, to highlight the incongruity of being offended by one, and not by the other. Goodness!!!!!! I am simply beside myself right now with disbelief.

Let me simply examine your idea with basic logic.

YOu believe that only a women's personality and voice would be suitable tor this character in this campaign.

The problems with this:

1) Not all women have the same personality.

2) Not all women have the same kind of voice.

3) The players in your campaign are not going to have the same type of voice as their characters.

4) A women is not going to be able to relate to a female on the basis of sharing a gender in a fantasy world where women are treated vastly different than ours due to the magic differences between male and female.

5) It is perfectly acceptable for women to be upset that you where discriminating against men and vice versa. Sexism goes both ways.

6) You are working backwards from your conclusion. You have already decided what your values are, and you are trying to make evidence fit your values and not vice versa.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:44 PM
And here you have revealed your own bias. You just suggested that my personal preferences are not valid. So now can I get pissed at you. Especially since you've been rather antagonistic to me this entire time.

Um, no. I explained clearly why the specific preference presented in the OP have no validity in selecting players. If you wish to challenge that I would be happy to take up that.
I have not been the least antagonistic, merely expressing my point of view. I have not attacked your or called you names or even been uncivil. I started asking a question, so you could clarify and went on from there.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 03:44 PM
"An not a single time have I indicated that all women are equal."

I honestly don't see it.
It's a synonym thing. Basically the sentence in this form can read like "All women are not equal", right? Which isn't a problem until someone looks at it and says "Huh. Wait, does that say women are not equal? Equal to what? Equal to who?"

You meant something like "I don't think all women are the same." but word choice matters.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:46 PM
The first thing is you used the word equal whereas what you are responding to did not. I used the word same. I don't understand how your understanding of all woman being the same would really relate to all women being equal. When a word gets swapped like that is suggests to me that you are either completely misunderstanding or have something else in the back of your mind.

Same: identical with what is about to be or has just been mentioned: This street is the same one we were on yesterday.

Equal: as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.

It may be a little odd, but swap the sentences and they still make sense.

This street is equals the one we were on yesterday.

The velocity of sound is not the same as that of light.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 03:49 PM
Same: identical with what is about to be or has just been mentioned: This street is the same one we were on yesterday.

Equal: as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.

It may be a little odd, but swap the sentences and they still make sense.

This street is equals the one we were on yesterday.

The velocity of sound is not the same as that of light.

In most cases this is fine. Sometimes word choice matters though. This appears to be one of those times where it matters, whether we like it or not.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:49 PM
Um, no. I explained clearly why the specific preference presented in the OP have no validity in selecting players. If you wish to challenge that I would be happy to take up that.
I have not been the least antagonistic, merely expressing my point of view. I have not attacked your or called you names or even been uncivil. I started asking a question, so you could clarify and went on from there.

Consider this:

You said " the specific preference presented in the OP have no validity" as a refutation to the statement that you said my preference isn't valid.

And yes. You have been antagonistic. Everyone else has pretty much tried to help me understand, while you just continually criticize. Go back and read the entire conversation and it will jump out at you.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:50 PM
Same: identical with what is about to be or has just been mentioned: This street is the same one we were on yesterday.

Equal: as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.

It may be a little odd, but swap the sentences and they still make sense.

In this context same and equal are very different. All women are the same suggests they all share the same qualities. All women are equal suggests a lack of superiority or inferiority as shown by the word great.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 03:51 PM
Also if you could Edit your posts instead of double posting that'd be great. It's not really a problem or offensive or anything like that, but it is a common pet peave on forums like these.

Thrudd
2017-01-01, 03:51 PM
I understand you perfectly. Both in your mind and in reality this is really a straight forward thing. You mean no harm at all. X is important in the game, so it would be great if someone who really understood X could post about it. You just want to see X done justice. In this case it's a gender. Not a big deal.

Unfortunately, when you type the words out they don't look right.



Also you sometimes leave a word out, or place it in a strange location.

"An not a single time have I indicated that all women are equal." looks bad. I understand you mean to say "I have never indicated I think women are all the same." but the sentence reads strangely and can very easily be misconstrued. And when someone demands an explanation you say another thing that can be misconstrued.

Basically you living a comedy skit right now. If this were Abbott and Costello, then you would currently be Costello.

It seems more like a situation for Larry David in Curb Your Enthusiasm. He'd be shouted down by a group of women after saying something misogynistic but he doesn't think it is, and he'd spend the episode trying to explain to everyone he runs into how what he said wasn't misogynistic but digging himself in deeper and deeper. And Jeff Green and/or JB Smoove would agree with him and convince him he was right, ultimately getting him in more trouble, ending finally with some woman probably refusing to give him an Uber ride and making him walk somewhere.

Seriously though, what you should do (if you must use this setting, which I think is a bad idea) though still iffy, is to advertise that you want to run a game featuring female characters, and describe the basics of the setting. Accept players of any gender who are interested in that.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:53 PM
In most cases this is fine. Sometimes word choice matters though. This appears to be one of those times where it matters, whether we like it or not.

Well the inherent problem is that there can never be a list of times when synonyms aren't appropriate. Everyone brings their own baggage to each conversation, and will inevitably read those sentences with colored lenses. Unless I know who I'm speaking to, I cannot anticipate who will be offended by what. And this is the core of the problem I'm trying to figure out. On recruiting posts, you don't know who's going to read it; so there is no way to cover all your bases.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:55 PM
It seems more like a situation for Larry David in Curb Your Enthusiasm. He'd be shouted down by a group of women after saying something misogynistic but he doesn't think it is, and he'd spend the episode trying to explain to everyone he runs into how what he said wasn't misogynistic but digging himself in deeper and deeper. And Jeff Green and/or JB Smoove would agree with him and convince him he was right, ultimately getting him in more trouble, ending finally with some woman probably refusing to give him an Uber ride and making him walk somewhere.

Seriously though, what you should do (if you must use this setting, which I think is a bad idea) though still iffy, is to advertise that you want to run a game featuring female characters, and describe the basics of the setting. Accept players of any gender who are interested in that.

Oh this isn't about this particular campaign right now. I already had 32 people vying for 5 spots before I asked for a female player. Right now I'm just trying to learn something for the future.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 03:56 PM
Consider this:

You said " the specific preference presented in the OP have no validity" as a refutation to the statement that you said my preference isn't valid.

And I explained why, but you are leaving that part out.


And yes. You have been antagonistic. Everyone else has pretty much tried to help me understand, while you just continually criticize. Go back and read the entire conversation and it will jump out at you.

I have. I have pointed out issues that I have seen and have done my best to help you as well. I started by asking a simple question to help. I suspect your emotional state has made you see this as antagonistic, but that has never been my intent and I do not see any indications of it, nor have you pointed any out.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:57 PM
Also if you could Edit your posts instead of double posting that'd be great. It's not really a problem or offensive or anything like that, but it is a common pet peave on forums like these.

Double posting? I don't ever remember sending the same post twice? Maybe that doesn't mean what I think it means?

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 03:58 PM
And I explained why, but you are leaving that part out.



I have. I have pointed out issues that I have seen and have done my best to help you as well. I started by asking a simple question to help. I suspect your emotional state has made you see this as antagonistic, but that has never been my intent and I do not see any indications of it, nor have you pointed any out.

I'm not particularly interested in starting a fight. I've just been ignoring your posts for a while now anyway. So let's just say that you don't like me, and I don't like you, and leave it be at that.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-01, 04:03 PM
Double posting? I don't ever remember sending the same post twice? Maybe that doesn't mean what I think it means?

It means making multiple posts in succession, rather than multi-quoting or editing in responses to people if you are the last person in a thread to post and still have more to say. Directly above this post, for instance, you've double-posted by replying to two different people with two different posts right after one another.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 04:04 PM
It means making multiple posts in succession, rather than multi-quoting or editing in responses to people if you are the last person in a thread to post and still have more to say. Directly above this post, for instance, you've double-posted by replying to two different people with two different posts right after one another.

And that's bad? Ok. I will fix that.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 04:04 PM
Well the inherent problem is that there can never be a list of times when synonyms aren't appropriate. Everyone brings their own baggage to each conversation, and will inevitably read those sentences with colored lenses. Unless I know who I'm speaking to, I cannot anticipate who will be offended by what. And this is the core of the problem I'm trying to figure out. On recruiting posts, you don't know who's going to read it; so there is no way to cover all your bases.

I have pointed this out to you numerous times and each time you ignored it. It is not simply about word use, it is about the apparent intent behind it. You are saying your intent is good, but it seems to boil down to wanting a woman to play a female because she will have the female point of view and because she will have a female voice. As pointed out these are not reasons we pick other players. Having a gruff voice to play an orc or a male playing a male.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 04:04 PM
Double posting? I don't ever remember sending the same post twice? Maybe that doesn't mean what I think it means?

Double posting is can mean either:

"Posting the same reply to a thread two or more times."
or
"Posting multiple time in succession, without another forum user posting in between your posts."

So this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21550849&postcount=181)paired with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21550863&postcount=182)is a double post. Likewise this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21550868&postcount=184)paired with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21550873&postcount=185) is a double post.

If memory serves this is a holdover from back when spam-stopping tools were weaker. A spammer or spam bot would keep their spam threat at the top of the topic list by posting in it over and over and over, without anyone else posting in the thread at all. This would ensure people always at least see the thread, and some may accidentally go into it and click a link without noticing.
---edit---
You can just Edit your posts later if you want to add more. On your prior posts next to the "quote this post" option there will be another option saying "Edit Post". Some people like to make distinctions within the post as to what is new and what is old like I do, but that isn't necessary; the forum itself will leave a not at the bottom of the post stating it has been edited, and if anyone quoted the old message their quote will not be changed to reflect the new version of the message.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-01-01, 04:08 PM
There isn't a safe way to request players based on specific physical characteristics. It just isn't possible. It is possible to request certain types of players based on personalities and gaming preferences, but that's not really what you want.

I do think it is possible to have a preference for player gender without being a horrible bigot, though some things you've said in this thread have made me raise my eyebrows. Realistically, if you want to try to do something like recruit a specific gender of player then you're going to have to suck it up and accept the fact that it's going to annoy a lot of people. If it's important enough to you then do it anyway, accept the abuse, and hope that you luck into a group that shares your priorities.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 04:09 PM
Double posting is can mean either:

"Posting the same reply to a thread two or more times."
or
"Posting multiple time in succession, without another forum user posting in between your posts."

So this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21550849&postcount=181)paired with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21550863&postcount=182)is a double post. Likewise this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21550868&postcount=184)paired with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21550873&postcount=185) is a double post.

If memory serves this is a holdover from back when spam-stopping tools were weaker. A spammer or spam bot would keep their spam threat at the top of the topic list by posting in it over and over and over, without anyone else posting in the thread at all. This would ensure people always at least see the thread, and some may accidentaly go into it and click a link without noticing.

Ufff. I know exactly what you are talking about. Over at ESPN they constantly have spam posts and it's annoying as hell. I can certainly fix that.

"though some things you've said in this thread have made me raise my eyebrows"

Really? Please let me know what has led you to that conclusion. I will absolutely try to avoid such faux pas in the future.

goatmeal
2017-01-01, 04:09 PM
Wow. Things sure have changed. You really can't say anything without pissing someone off or being accused of discrimination. I can't even want a different perspective represented without being accused of discrimination. I'm too old for all this. Screw it. I'll just let the guy be the female caster.

Another approach to this situation might be to try to understand why someone was upset by this and react accordingly. There were several potential reasons provided in an earlier response that you did not seem to acknowledge. Regardless of how you feel about someone else being upset, this approach could at least save you the discomfort of dealing with your frustration at others responses.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 04:11 PM
I'm not particularly interested in starting a fight. I've just been ignoring your posts for a while now anyway. So let's just say that you don't like me, and I don't like you, and leave it be at that.

I have no desire to start a fight nor do I dislike you in the least. You keep assuming that when nothing could be further from the truth. I think that could relate to why you think I am antagonistic to you.

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 04:14 PM
Ufff. I know exactly what you are talking about. Over at ESPN they constantly have spam posts and it's annoying as hell. I can certainly fix that.

"though some things you've said in this thread have made me raise my eyebrows"

Really? Please let me know what has led you to that conclusion. I will absolutely try to avoid such faux pas in the future.

It is also considered good form to quote people you are replying to if you are replying to multiple people at once. Mostly because not doing so leads to "Hey, I never said that!" moments

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 04:18 PM
It is also considered good form to quote people you are replying to if you are replying to multiple people at once. Mostly because not doing so leads to "Hey, I never said that!" moments

Ok. How do you make that box appear. I put quotes around the part I was quoting, but if that's not enough that's fine. For instance all I see is "QUOTE=Doxkid:21550921 at the beginning and a closing /Quote at the end. What do all those numbers mean?

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 04:23 PM
Ok. How do you make that box appear. I put quotes around the part I was quoting, but if that's not enough that's fine. For instance all I see is "QUOTE=Doxki;:21550921 at the beginning and a closing /Quote at the end. What do all those numbers mean?

Enclose the "quote" part in . So it' be some thing like (and I'll be using * to mess it up intentionally.
[*QUOTE=Doxkid;21550921*] it is as it is, and it will be as it will be.[*/Quote*] Without the *s it looks like this
it is as it is, and it will be as it will be.
the forum will actually take care of quoting things for you most of the time. If it's easier for you then youcould use the "Quote and reply" forum function as you have been doing, but instead of submitting that new reply you could just copy and past it into an edit.

Also, use a semi colon " [B]; " instead of a full colon " : " with the string of numbers that follow a person's name. This enables the forum post tracking system; basically the quote will redirect to a certain post so people can verify the quote's accuracy and check for edits to the post. If you are using the "quote and Reply" function the forum will do this for you automatically.

Stryyke
2017-01-01, 04:27 PM
Enclose the "quote" part in [brackets]. So it' be some thing like (and I'll be using * to mess it up intentionally.
[*QUOTE=Doxkid:21550921*] it is as it is, and it will be as it will be.[*/Quote*] Without the *s it looks like this
the forum will actually take care of quoting things for you most of the time. If it's easier for you then yuo could use the "Quote and reply" forum function as you have been doing, but instead of submitting that new reply you could just copy and past it into an edit.

But every time I push reply, it starts a new post, which is considered double posting. I can just use /Quote on both sides. But that doesn't really solve the problem of who I'm quoting.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-01, 04:35 PM
But every time I push reply, it starts a new post, which is considered double posting. I can just use /Quote on both sides. But that doesn't really solve the problem of who I'm quoting.

That's what Multiquoting helps with. Look on the right side of people's posts, there is a little quotation marks icon. Click it, it'll highlight with a green checkmark. The next time you use the Reply button, it'll come pre-filled with a Quote of each person you Multiquoted in order.

Pugwampy
2017-01-01, 04:37 PM
I have had more then half a dozen real girl players in my campaigns . They dont seem to care.

None ever contributed anything memorable or made much of an effort . I like having girl players its kinda like a feather in my cap. This game seems odd to them , like its a quirky guy get together thing they want to explore . Someone goes nerd rage on the dice , they run for it or players drink too much and massacre village people , they really run for it .
They dont "contribute" much to the fantasy RP or make a major combat impact .

I would never ever refuse a girl wanting to play but they seem to just not quite "GET" it , which is sad because I would think this kind of imagination play which can be rather intimate at times would be appreciated by them .

Doxkid
2017-01-01, 04:39 PM
I have had more then half a dozen real girl players in my campaigns . They dont seem to care.

None ever contributed anything memorable or made much of an effort . I like having girl players its kinda like a feather in my cap. This game seems odd to them , like its a quirky guy get together thing they want to explore . Someone goes nerd rage on the dice , they run for it or players drink too much and massacre village people , they really run for it .
They dont "contribute" much to the fantasy RP or make a major combat impact .

I would never ever refuse a girl wanting to play but they seem to just not quite "GET" it , which is sad because I would think this kind of imagination play which can be rather intimate at times would be appreciated by them .

Welp. No salvaging this one.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-01-01, 04:56 PM
I have had more then half a dozen real girl players in my campaigns . They dont seem to care.

None ever contributed anything memorable or made much of an effort . I like having girl players its kinda like a feather in my cap. This game seems odd to them , like its a quirky guy get together thing they want to explore . Someone goes nerd rage on the dice , they run for it or players drink too much and massacre village people , they really run for it .
They dont "contribute" much to the fantasy RP or make a major combat impact .

I would never ever refuse a girl wanting to play but they seem to just not quite "GET" it , which is sad because I would think this kind of imagination play which can be rather intimate at times would be appreciated by them .

Your first lesson is don't be this guy, Stryyke.

SeeksForTruth
2017-01-01, 04:56 PM
I have had more then half a dozen real girl players in my campaigns . They dont seem to care.

None ever contributed anything memorable or made much of an effort . I like having girl players its kinda like a feather in my cap. This game seems odd to them , like its a quirky guy get together thing they want to explore . Someone goes nerd rage on the dice , they run for it or players drink too much and massacre village people , they really run for it .
They dont "contribute" much to the fantasy RP or make a major combat impact .

I would never ever refuse a girl wanting to play but they seem to just not quite "GET" it , which is sad because I would think this kind of imagination play which can be rather intimate at times would be appreciated by them .

Please read the forum rules before posting here.

SeeksForTruth
2017-01-01, 04:58 PM
Welp. No salvaging this one.


Your first lesson is don't be this guy, Stryyke.

*Hits the like button*

Frozen_Feet
2017-01-01, 05:00 PM
You are saying your intent is good, but it seems to boil down to wanting a woman to play a female because she will have the female point of view and because she will have a female voice. As pointed out these are not reasons we pick other players. Having a gruff voice to play an orc or a male playing a male.

And what if this was a LARP? Or a play? Would you still say "these are not reasons we pick other players", or would you not bat an eyelid?

Tabletop games don't need to be special in this regard.

---

As a response to the original poster, you do exactly what you would do of this was a play or a LARP:

1) you approach a female player and say: "I have this role in my game. Would you like to play it?"

Or, if you do not know or have any individual female players present:

2) you put up an advert at the local game store, club, message board etc. saying "I have this role in a game and would like a female player to play it. Any volunteers? [Your contact info at the end]."

Someone may find this odd, sexist or whatever, or some male may think they could pull this off better, but that is their problem and if they want to do something about it, it's on them to contact you about it. Don't let this prevent you from asking or putting up the ad before-the-fact.

nyjastul69
2017-01-01, 05:11 PM
I was trying to post on another site to recruit females for my game because there is a significant thematic difference between male and female casters. So I asked for females for thematic reasons, and I was shouted down for being an ass. I would like to see if I could get a female player, but I'm at a loss at the best way to ask for female players without sounding like an ass. Can someone please help with this?

Without reading anything other the OP, you're an ass. There are no thematics for casting that are predicated based upon gender. The idea itself is silly. Now I shall go and see what others say.

nyjastul69
2017-01-01, 05:16 PM
In the setting, male casters cannot cast publicly because they grew too powerful and broke the world. Female casters have since become a political force, in addition to tracking down and removing the men's magic. It's kind of a cornerstone in the world, so I thought it would be good to actually have a female, play a female caster.

Really! That's a thing Jordans work? I'm gorram glad I've never been exposed to his work. That's a horrific thing.

Dimers
2017-01-01, 05:18 PM
There isn't a safe way to request players based on specific physical characteristics. It just isn't possible. It is possible to request certain types of players based on personalities and gaming preferences, but that's not really what you want.

I agree with this, Stryyke. SOMEone will be offended no matter what you type -- I mean, even if you hit the right note for every woman who reads your post, you'll get flak from 'men-inists' who want to keep women out of gaming altogether.

That said, the responses you've seen here and at your other forum may give an idea of the right tactics to push the minimum number of buttons. In this forum, you've seen the least trouble and the most support regarding voicing.* So ... "I find a voice mismatch immersion-breaking, and I want a female caster in the group to really show off the magic style of Wheel Of Time. So I'd prefer to have at least one feminine-sounding player."

* (Which is because how a voice sounds doesn't attribute any other qualities to the person or put them in a particular social role.)

That phrasing will catch hell because not all female characters would sound feminine, but it's about the best you can get. It explains two practical and popular reasons for the preference, it won't give you a 'false positive' with a mannish-sounding female player, and you might get pleasantly surprised by a male player who can make the role shine.

Lemmy
2017-01-01, 05:23 PM
How about:

"I have an opening for a [character role] in my table. Because of [reasons], I want that role to be played by a female player. Anyone interested?"

Doesn't seem that difficult...

RazorChain
2017-01-01, 05:50 PM
Define "signofocant".



What. I mean seriously, how in the Nine Hells would it not be discrimination?

I'm not trying to be offensive in how I phrased that statement, but my brain literally just broke and I don't have the brainpower to focus on politeness anymore.

So if I ask people on date would it be discrimination if I ask only caucasian females?

Frozen_Feet
2017-01-01, 06:27 PM
So if I ask people on date would it be discrimination if I ask only caucasian females?

Depends on several things.

Firstly, it depends on which definition of "discrimination" you are using.

Using a value-neutral definition, making any distinction between two things is discrimination. See phrases like "my weapon does not discriminate between targets" or "he was unable to discriminate between good and evil".

So using that definition, if you only ask caucasian females because you want to date that specific sort of person, yes, you are discriminating, but this doesn't tell anything about whether it is right to do so.

Sociological definition of discrimination means unfairly treating people differently, and hence treats it as a moral and social issue. So you might be discriminatory in this sense, as well, as long as someone can prove you are being unfair.

Hence, once we accept either semantics, we still have practical questions to answer. For example: are you asking only caucasian females, because in fact there are no non-caucasian females (or perhaps no caucasian males, or perhaps no non-caucasian non-females) present? Are you asking because you have unfair prejudices towards non-caucasians (or non-females), or because caucasians (or females, or just caucasian females) are being shunned where you live and you feel sorry for them?

So on and so forth.

In practice, of course, I don't believe you would actually be interested in anyone else's answer to the question, or even asking the question, you would just ask caucasian females out untill you got your date. That's what normal people do.

RazorChain
2017-01-01, 06:34 PM
Depends on several things.

Firstly, it depends on which definition of "discrimination" you are using.

Using a value-neutral definition, making any distinction between two things is discrimination. See phrases like "my weapon does not discriminate between targets" or "he was unable to discriminate between good and evil".

So using that definition, if you only ask caucasian females because you want to date that specific sort of person, yes, you are discriminating, but this doesn't tell anything about whether it is right to do so.

Sociological definition of discrimination means unfairly treating people differently, and hence treats it as a moral and social issue. So you might be discriminatory in this sense, as well, as long as someone can prove you are being unfair.

Hence, once we accept either semantics, we still have practical questions to answer. For example: are you asking only caucasian females, because in fact there are no non-caucasian females (or perhaps no caucasian males, or perhaps no non-caucasian non-females) present? Are you asking because you have unfair prejudices towards non-caucasians (or non-females), or because caucasians (or females, or just caucasian females) are being shunned where you live and you feel sorry for them?

So on and so forth.

In practice, of course, I don't believe you would actually be interested in anyone else's answer to the question, or even asking the question, you would just ask caucasian females out untill you got your date. That's what normal people do.

Well said. Therefore the OP should just do what he wants and stop worrying about people chosing to get offended.

This is his game and he isnt breaking any laws inviting girls to his game. I'll be damned if some forumites are going to tell me how I should run my games and who I invite.

If the OP wants to build a treehouse and run a girls only club there and put a sign outside which says "no boys allowed" then he is fully in his right to do so.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 06:50 PM
So if I ask people on date would it be discrimination if I ask only caucasian females?

Sigh. No, but then this is not dating. Thinking it might be akin to dating caused some peoples concern.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 06:52 PM
Well said. Therefore the OP should just do what he wants and stop worrying about people chosing to get offended.

This is his game and he isnt breaking any laws inviting girls to his game. I'll be damned if some forumites are going to tell me how I should run my games and who I invite.

If the OP wants to build a treehouse and run a girls only club there and put a sign outside which says "no boys allowed" then he is fully in his right to do so.

To be fair, he asked for input.

Addy
2017-01-01, 06:58 PM
I have had more then half a dozen real girl players in my campaigns . They dont seem to care.

None ever contributed anything memorable or made much of an effort . I like having girl players its kinda like a feather in my cap. This game seems odd to them , like its a quirky guy get together thing they want to explore . Someone goes nerd rage on the dice , they run for it or players drink too much and massacre village people , they really run for it .
They dont "contribute" much to the fantasy RP or make a major combat impact .

I would never ever refuse a girl wanting to play but they seem to just not quite "GET" it , which is sad because I would think this kind of imagination play which can be rather intimate at times would be appreciated by them .

Hehe, I think this is what we call bait? Maybe?

Frozen_Feet
2017-01-01, 07:00 PM
Well the input is that he only needs approval of one female player who wants to play the role. He doesn't need to explain his motives to and seek the approval of the whole wide world, because the actual act of asking remains simple: "I have a role in my game, would you like to play it?"

Similarly, the proper way to ask someone for a date is "do you want to come to date with me?", regardless of how indecent one's motives for wanting a date are. :smalltongue:

Lemmy
2017-01-01, 07:12 PM
So if I ask people on date would it be discrimination if I ask only caucasian females?
Well... assuming that by discrimination you mean "bigotry" rather than "differentiating between two things", I'd say it depends on why you're doing it. If you only ask caucasian females because that's your sexual preference, then that's just your sexual preference. No one is equally attracted to all types of person, and some people have narrower tastes. No problem there.

OTOH, if you're doing it because you think non-caucasian females are below you and undeserving of your company, then I'd comfortably call that discrimination/bigotry.

nyjastul69
2017-01-01, 07:18 PM
Men and women approach things with a different perspective. I would simply like to have a female perspective.
This is a false premise.

Asha Leu
2017-01-01, 07:37 PM
Obviously, I haven't read the OP's original thread from the other forum, but based on how he described his initial post, I can't help thinking the negative reaction he recieved had less to do with the assumption that a female player was required to play a female character, and more to do with the typical connotations a request for female players in a D&D game carries.

Quite frankly, Stryyke, your initial request for players was very unclear as to why you wanted a female player. The only real explanation you gave was that it was a Wheel of Time themed campaign, and for anyone who is unfamiliar with WoT, that is completely meaningless.

As such, I daresay that most people reading your thread assumed you were looking for female players for, er, other reasons. Fact is, most women who play tabletop RPGs have probably encountered their fair share of creepshow players and groups in their time. Whether the players were just outright misogynists, or everyone was trying to make moves on them, or someone was acting out their creepy fetishes in-game, I imagine most female D&D players would be naturally wary when looking for new groups, and react with some hostility towards requests that seemed like the DM was more interested in finding a girlfriend than a player. Not saying that this was what you were doing, Stryyke, just that that was probably how it was perceived.

I've put my foot in my mouth regarding gender issues more than a few times myself. (Possibly in this very post.) Best approach is to just accept where you went wrong and try your best to understand why people reacted the way they did and not to repeat the mistake. Getting defensive won't help you at all. To be honest, I don't think there really is a way to request female players that doesn't (justifiably or not) make you come across as a bit of a creep*. You're just going to have to accept that you will get the players that you get, and there may or may not be a woman among them.

*With one possible exception: there's already a woman playing, and she would prefer that she wasn't the only one.


Oh, and on the female/woman thing - I must admit that I tend to use female myself (at least as an adjective), and only recently discovered that it can cause offense. For me its a grammatical thing - calling something "a woman x" just doesn't sound right.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-01-01, 07:38 PM
Calling someone a female sounds like you're putting out a police bulletin.

Asha Leu
2017-01-01, 07:44 PM
So if I ask people on date would it be discrimination if I ask only caucasian females?

No, probably not. But the OP isn't asking people on a date, he's asking them to play a tabletop RPG with him. The fact that many people seem to conflate the two is, IMO, a big reason he received such a hostile reaction in the first place.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-01, 07:59 PM
I think I might be able to shed some light on your problem here, Stryyke.

Ya see, there's a bit of a cultural tumult in effect in the world's western nations right now. There are currently large swathes of people that are aggressively and wantonly seeking just about any excuse to be offended and when they find anything that could be considered offensive to their rather broad ideas of what constitutes offensive, no matter how hard they have to squint at it out of the corner of their eye to see it that way, they feel almost compelled to engage in histrionic "calling out" of the offense.

The trick to dealing with these people is to learn to identify them, then summarily ignore their raving lunacy. You may feel inclined to try to reason with them but don't bother. They're not interested in a proper conversation, only laying accusations of wrong-doing and shame at your feet until you capitulate.

Anything at all to do with gender, sex, and gender identity draws these people like moths to a flame. Either don't touch these subjects with a 10 meter pole or gird yourself for the inevitable onslaught.




To anyone who wishes to express their offense at this post. Don't bother, I don't care.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 08:06 PM
I think I might be able to shed some light on your problem here, Stryyke.

Ya see, there's a bit of a cultural tumult in effect in the world's western nations right now. There are currently large swathes of people that are aggressively and wantonly seeking just about any excuse to be offended these days and when they find anything that could be considered offensive to their rather broad ideas of what constitutes offensive, no matter how hard they have to squint at it out of the corner of their eye to see it that way, they feel almost compelled to engage in histrionic "calling out" of the offense.

You are quite simply wrong here. I am one of the people you likely think looks for things to be offended about and yet I don't.


The trick to dealing with these people is to learn to identify them, then summarily ignore their raving lunacy. You may feel inclined to try to reason with them but don't bother. They're not interested in a proper conversation, only laying accusations of wrong-doing and shame at your feet until you capitulate.

It seems you need to frame the world in some bizarre way to make your world view work. I am sure you think this is correct, but you should actually try to listen to what people actually think rather than putting words in their mouth.


Anything at all to do with gender, sex, and gender identity draws these people like moths to a flame. Either don't touch these subjects with a 10 meter pole or gird yourself for the inevitable onslaught.

I suspect that Stryyke has a different point of view than your or he would not have asked for advice.


To anyone who wishes to express their offense at this post. Don't bother, I don't care.

I am not offended in the least and I suspect you do care or you would not have bothered to say this.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-01, 08:21 PM
You are quite simply wrong here. I am one of the people you likely think looks for things to be offended about and yet I don't.

I very much doubt both of those points. The former I'm dead certain of and the latter is looking dicey because of this very response.


It seems you need to frame the world in some bizarre way to make your world view work. I am sure you think this is correct, but you should actually try to listen to what people actually think rather than putting words in their mouth.

Projecting a tendecy to project. That's meta.

I do listen to people at first. That's how you identify them. They'll almost inevitably start hitting points of projection, logical inconsistency, logical fallacy, and/or needless and irrelevant virtue-signalling in fairly short order. That's when I usually realize I'm wasting my time continuing to engage and start ignoring them entirely.


I suspect that Stryyke has a different point of view than your or he would not have asked for advice.

He's entitled to his own point of view. I'm simply sharing my own thoughts and observations on the matter in response to his request for advice. He can feel free to ignore me, as can anyone else who doesn't like what I have to say.


I am not offended in the least and I suspect you do care or you would not have bothered to say this.

Nah, just hoping against hope that by openly expressing my disdain for people's offense that they'll keep it to themselves rather than clutter the thread with telling me how terrible they think I am. It's happened often enough to me and others to whom I'm close that I've begun trying to head it off before it starts, admittedly to somewhat mixed results. Some take the hint and leave well enough alone while others only crow louder. Fortunately, this forum's better than most in this regard.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 08:28 PM
I very much doubt both of those points. The former I'm dead certain of and the latter is looking dicey because of this very response.

So me denying that your claim of me is somehow, in your eyes, proof that you are right?


Projecting a tendecy to project. That's meta.

Um, I am not projecting. You are the one making claims of me and I know they are wrong, because I am me.


I do listen to people at first. That's how you identify them. They'll almost inevitably start hitting points of projection, logical inconsistency, logical fallacy, and/or needless and irrelevant virtue-signalling in fairly short order. That's when I usually realize I'm wasting my time continuing to engage and start ignoring them entirely.

You have made a bunch of claims not one of which is true and certainly you have not supported any of them.


He's entitled to his own point of view. I'm simply sharing my own thoughts and observations on the matter in response to his request for advice. He can feel free to ignore me, as can anyone else who doesn't like what I have to say.

Thanks for giving us all permission to ignore you.


Nah, just hoping against hope that by openly expressing my disdain for people's offense that they'll keep it to themselves rather than clutter the thread with telling me how terrible they think I am. It's happened often enough to me and others to whom I'm close that I've begun trying to head it off before it starts, admittedly to somewhat mixed results. Some take the hint and leave well enough alone while others only crow louder. Fortunately, this forum's better than most in this regard.

So your comments don't clutter a thread, but responses to your comments do?

Asha Leu
2017-01-01, 08:35 PM
I think I might be able to shed some light on your problem here, Stryyke.

Ya see, there's a bit of a cultural tumult in effect in the world's western nations right now. There are currently large swathes of people that are aggressively and wantonly seeking just about any excuse to be offended and when they find anything that could be considered offensive to their rather broad ideas of what constitutes offensive, no matter how hard they have to squint at it out of the corner of their eye to see it that way, they feel almost compelled to engage in histrionic "calling out" of the offense.

The trick to dealing with these people is to learn to identify them, then summarily ignore their raving lunacy. You may feel inclined to try to reason with them but don't bother. They're not interested in a proper conversation, only laying accusations of wrong-doing and shame at your feet until you capitulate.

Anything at all to do with gender, sex, and gender identity draws these people like moths to a flame. Either don't touch these subjects with a 10 meter pole or gird yourself for the inevitable onslaught.




To anyone who wishes to express their offense at this post. Don't bother, I don't care.

I'm not offended, but I do fundamentally disagree with pretty much everything you wrote there, with one exception:

Yes, there *is* a cultural tumult in effect right now. For good reason. It's got very little to do with taking offense and "political correctness" (oh, how that phrase gets misused), and whole lot to do with people reacting against entrenched cultural misogyny and intolerance, against those who are so strongly resisting such changes, and against charming individuals like yourself who consider them to be "raving lunatics."

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-01, 08:46 PM
So me denying that your claim of me is somehow, in your eyes, proof that you are right?

Not at all. I made an incredibly broad statement about the world at large and -you- took it to include you. I don't know you but that alone says something.

As for me being certain that there are people aggressively seeking offense, I've seen too many to doubt it regardless of whether you are one such person or not.



Um, I am not projecting. You are the one making claims of me and I know they are wrong, because I am me.

You projected the idea that I was talking about you onto me. I made a broad statement. Though I'm reminded of an old southern proverb; "A hit dog always hollers."


You have made a bunch of claims not one of which is true and certainly you have not supported any of them.

And I don't intend to. The evidence is -everywhere- on the internet if one bothers to look. You're being awfully demanding for someone who's not offended.


Thanks for us all permission to ignore you.

Oh. Such biting sarcasm. You cut me to my very soul, sir.


So your comments don't clutter a thread, but responses to your comments do?

In this case, yes. I gave the OP a direct response to his circumstance that really doesn't call for much response at all. The few responses I've gotten, rather than a request for clarification or simple denial of my point, has been you taking it as a personal attack which was not the intent of my post, at all. It didn't have to be that way but that's how you, apparently, wanted it.



EDIT:


I'm not offended, but I do fundamentally disagree with pretty much everything you wrote there, with one exception:

Yes, there *is* a cultural tumult in effect right now. For good reason. It's got very little to do with taking offense and "political correctness" (oh, how that phrase gets misused), and whole lot to do with people reacting against entrenched cultural misogyny and intolerance, against those who are so strongly resisting such changes, and against charming individuals like yourself who consider them to be "raving lunatics."

See now, this is an appropriate, non-cluttery response.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 09:18 PM
Not at all. I made an incredibly broad statement about the world at large and -you- took it to include you. I don't know you but that alone says something.

I specifically said "I am one of the people you likely think looks for things to be offended about and yet I don't. " I didn't assume it included me.


As for me being certain that there are people aggressively seeking offense, I've seen too many to doubt it regardless of whether you are one such person or not.

And you know this how? You assume because you disagree with them and can't fathom any other way to make sense of it?


You projected the idea that I was talking about you onto me. I made a broad statement.

I don't think you know what projection means. What you are claiming of me is assumption, not projection and I specifically said "I am one of the people you likely think looks for things to be offended about and yet I don't."


And I don't intend to. The evidence is -everywhere- on the internet if one bothers to look. You're being awfully demanding for someone who's not offended.

No there is no evidence of this, unless you begin with assuming people start with your assumptions.
Why do you feel that me pointing out you have not supported your claims is demanding and why do you feel a demanding person must be offended?


In this case, yes. I gave the OP a direct response to his circumstance that really doesn't call for much response at all. The few responses I've gotten, rather than a request for clarification or simple denial of my point, has been you taking it as a personal attack which was not the intent of my post, at all. It didn't have to be that way but that's how you, apparently, wanted it.

I never took it as a personal attack, so again you are wrong. My comments were a direct response to your comments, just because you didn't like them does not mean they are clutter.

RazorChain
2017-01-01, 09:44 PM
Well... assuming that by discrimination you mean "bigotry" rather than "differentiating between two things", I'd say it depends on why you're doing it. If you only ask caucasian females because that's your sexual preference, then that's just your sexual preference. No one is equally attracted to all types of person, and some people have narrower tastes. No problem there.

OTOH, if you're doing it because you think non-caucasian females are below you and undeserving of your company, then I'd comfortably call that discrimination/bigotry.

Exactly, I don't think the OP said males are any worse than females, in fact he has 5 males in his hobby group already so by recruiting a female he is in fact trying to strive for gender equality.

So when did gender equality become discriminatory?

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 09:46 PM
Exactly, I don't think the OP said males are any worse than females, in fact he has 5 males in his hobby group already so by recruiting a female he is in fact trying to strive for gender equality.

So when did gender equality become discriminatory?

He never said he was striving for gender equality. You should read the thread.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-01-01, 09:49 PM
Really! That's a thing Jordans work? I'm gorram glad I've never been exposed to his work. That's a horrific thing.

Wheel of Time is a rather well constructed setting with interesting implications and the differences between male and female casting is the cornerstone of it.

That said, Jordan is absolutely awful at writing female characters. They're universally detestable.

RazorChain
2017-01-01, 09:51 PM
He never said he was striving for gender equality. You should read the thread.

I read the thread and it just seemed people decided to become offended because some guy wanted to recruit a girl gamer into his group.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-01, 10:03 PM
I specifically said "I am one of the people you likely think looks for things to be offended about and yet I don't. " I didn't assume it included me.

You can't have it both ways. Either you're included in the people I was talking about or you're not. "I'm one of the people you're talking about but I don't do that" isn't a coherent thought. Remember what I said about logical consistentcy? I'm beginning to think you -are- one of those people. I doubt this back-and-forth will continue much further.


And you know this how? You assume because you disagree with them and can't fathom any other way to make sense of it?

Are you denying such people exist at all? You've seriously never met anyone who got offended over nonsense or because they took the most uncharitable view of something someone else said?


I don't think you know what projection means. What you are claiming of me is assumption, not projection and I specifically said "I am one of the people you likely think looks for things to be offended about and yet I don't."

Words have multiple meanings. Psychological projection isn't the only way to use the term. My fault for poorly chosen phrasing.

Nevertheless, you're presuming I make snap judgements about other people with little effort to understand their position which is a snap judgement about me and I seriously doubt you have any interest in understanding my position; thus, projecting a tendency to projection.


No there is no evidence of this, unless you begin with assuming people start with your assumptions.
Why do you feel that me pointing out you have not supported your claims is demanding and why do you feel a demanding person must be offended?

That you think there is no evidence of such behavior is either laughably naive or a bald-faced lie. I don't care which at this point and this will be the last exchange we have on this matter.

As for how an abrupt demand for evidence of the obvious is demanding, that's rather self evident and shows a level of emotional involvement in the discussion. I'll cop to presuming it's offense but I can't see too many other emotions that would fit in this context.


I never took it as a personal attack, so again you are wrong. My comments were a direct response to your comments, just because you didn't like them does not mean they are clutter.

Your posts suggest otherwise. Not that it matters at this point. We have nothing more to say to each other at this point.

Good day, sir.

Ceralune
2017-01-01, 10:18 PM
I think I might be able to shed some light on your problem here, Stryyke.

Ya see, there's a bit of a cultural tumult in effect in the world's western nations right now. There are currently large swathes of people that are aggressively and wantonly seeking just about any excuse to be offended and when they find anything that could be considered offensive to their rather broad ideas of what constitutes offensive, no matter how hard they have to squint at it out of the corner of their eye to see it that way, they feel almost compelled to engage in histrionic "calling out" of the offense.

The trick to dealing with these people is to learn to identify them, then summarily ignore their raving lunacy. You may feel inclined to try to reason with them but don't bother. They're not interested in a proper conversation, only laying accusations of wrong-doing and shame at your feet until you capitulate.

Anything at all to do with gender, sex, and gender identity draws these people like moths to a flame. Either don't touch these subjects with a 10 meter pole or gird yourself for the inevitable onslaught.

While I agree that some of us get too heated over things we find offensive, I don't think opting to stay ignorant and ignore what's going on around you is a great approach either.

After all... if you're covering your ears and shouting that you're right and everyone else has it wrong, aren't you doing the same thing the supposed "raving lunatics" you're referencing are doing too?

I wish that I could put my perspective on things like feminism into words that will help other people understand it better, and I don't always succeed, but as long as I'm being respectful of the other person and where they are coming from, shouldn't I try for greater awareness?

Getting to know other perspectives might not lead to agreement, but it should (hopefully!) lead to better understanding.

The Extinguisher
2017-01-01, 10:18 PM
This thread is a train wreck lol

There's nothing wrong for looking for diversity in your game and you will have a much richer gaming experience if you encourage it. There will always be people that complain, but people that scoff towards better representation shouldn't be listened to.

HappyMerecat
2017-01-01, 10:24 PM
I read the thread and it just seemed people decided to become offended because some guy wanted to recruit a girl gamer into his group.

My comment that he was not seeking gender equality. I have never know anyone to decide to become offended. As I read it people where responding to his request which implied a female player was required to play a female character properly.

RazorChain
2017-01-01, 10:39 PM
My comment that he was not seeking gender equality. I have never know anyone to decide to become offended. As I read it people where responding to his request which implied a female player was required to play a female character properly.

Well I am sure that you can probably play a decent surgeon but I'd never allow you to remove my appendix.

MarkVIIIMarc
2017-01-01, 10:42 PM
My goodness. I hope while typing on my phone with improper quotes I am not offended by how offended someone gets by improper webiquit.

I say that somewhat in jest.

On topic, when I go to my wife's church I hope to see some diversity but never do. WASPs are in high supply but if I were in charge I'd put a priority on inviting ANYONE else to attend this Arian Brotherhood appearing worship service they have.

Personally I hope that "anyone else" would not be offended.

dps
2017-01-01, 10:45 PM
Yes, there *is* a cultural tumult in effect right now. For good reason. It's got very little to do with taking offense and "political correctness" (oh, how that phrase gets misused), and whole lot to do with people reacting against entrenched cultural misogyny and intolerance, against those who are so strongly resisting such changes, and against charming individuals like yourself who consider them to be "raving lunatics."

I know that you aren't responding directly to the OP, but you seem to be implying that the opening poster is misogynist and intolerant, or at least that people who were upset with his request have grounds to think that he's misogynistic and intolerant. Yet he was trying to be inclusive, not exclusive. His method of asking may have been a bit clumsy, but I don't think it's fair to accuse him of bigotry, as some seem to be doing (or at least implying).

nyjastul69
2017-01-01, 10:46 PM
Of course. All life should be treated with respect. But I think few would argue that we shouldn't treat humans somewhat differently than other species. My point was that referring to women as "females" is, in a way, dehumanizing by calling attention to only their gender, not the mind or person. It is not the same as "women" (which I don't understand why those people from earlier said implies "dependent on man" >.> ), and it is likely part of the reason why those women got offended, aside from the fact that requesting a specific gender/race/etc. will almost always appear at least a little discriminatory. No matter what your intentions might be.

I appreciate that Stryyke took the time to ask about this rather than ignoring it and just telling himself they were getting offended for no reason. There's nothing wrong with criticism, when it's focused on being helpful to the person asking for it. I don't think Stryyke meant any harm, he just didn't know.

Can you explain how referring to women as females is dehumanizing? That's a bizarre statement.

The Glyphstone
2017-01-01, 10:48 PM
Great Modthulhu: Thread closed for review.