Swashbuckler / Battlemaster with a touch of warlock?

[Kefvin]

Hi!

We're starting a new campaign soon and Im going to play a standard human rogue going into BM at some point.

The campaign will start being no variant/no feat because reasons (I wanted feats)


Now here is the main issue.

Darkvision and how to acquire it.

Buying Goggles seems like the natural option but saving upp 1500gp and convincing the 3 other members that is is of the highest priority seems unlikely in the early levels.

There are spellcasters in the group but they wont be getting there 2nd lvl spells til lvl 3 at the earliest (sorceror and rnager in party that can get darkvision) and they might not want to have a spell especially for me...

I dont want to change to a race that has darkvision as that wont fit the character.

Now what Ive manage to find out is that warlock can get darkvision at lvl 2 and on top of that I found the Hex spell which I really like the look of. Dealing 1d6 extra damage whenever I hit just seems to good to pass up.

Dipping in to warlock will however come at the cost of later ability scores (not super worried as my daughter rolled GODLY stats for me) and also postpone the main SB/BM build

Im thinking Ill do it like this

Lvl 1 rogue
Lvl 2-3 warlock (to get hex and 2 invocations one being devil sight)
Lvl 4-7 rogue to get SB, ASI (dex 20) and 3d6 sneak
Lvl 8 - ? Fighter to pick duelist,BM etc


One worry is that the dmg output wont be great until lvl 8 but My dmg output should be OK as I get dex bonus on rapier and Hex dmg.
Will also be able to stealth/sneak attack pretty well as expert at stealth.

Is this a good idea or should I just tough it out in darkness til 1500gp is saved up.

Has anyone got experience using hex. My con is 16 so should have a decent chance of keeping concentration.

Thanks in advance for help. Also if this is in the wrong subforum or whatever please move it. New to this forum and forums in general :) / Kefvin

[Ashuan21]

I think it's a viable build! Warlock levels also give you access to the strongest cantrip around, so that you have an impressive ranged option to deal damage (EB coupled with Hex is wonderful at high levels).
You could even go Warlock 3 to get that nice familiar (fun for a Rogue) or the other pact features.
Keep in mind that going Warlock only for Darkvision and Hex is not exactly the best, as you are losing 1D6 from Sneak Attack and gaining the same D6 from Hex, but at the cost of limited resources and of your Bonus Action, so look for other things which may improve the final result (Darkness/DevisSight combo at lvl3, pact at lvl3, nice Fey pact feature at lvl 1, Invocations to boost Eldritch Blast and so on)

For what concerns the level progression... If you feel Darkvision is so important then it's ok, but I think you should reach Rogue 2 as soon as possible (Cunning Action) to improve your survivability at these low levels...

BM levels are gold on a Swashbuckler because of Riposte and the other Maneuvers! You can't go wrong here.

[Kefvin]

I think it's a viable build! Warlock levels also give you access to the strongest cantrip around, so that you have an impressive ranged option to deal damage (EB coupled with Hex is wonderful at high levels).
You could even go Warlock 3 to get that nice familiar (fun for a Rogue) or the other pact features.
Keep in mind that going Warlock only for Darkvision and Hex is not exactly the best, as you are losing 1D6 from Sneak Attack and gaining the same D6 from Hex, but at the cost of limited resources and of your Bonus Action, so look for other things which may improve the final result (Darkness/DevisSight combo at lvl3, pact at lvl3, nice Fey pact feature at lvl 1, Invocations to boost Eldritch Blast and so on)

For what concerns the level progression... If you feel Darkvision is so important then it's ok, but I think you should reach Rogue 2 as soon as possible (Cunning Action) to improve your survivability at these low levels...

BM levels are gold on a Swashbuckler because of Riposte and the other Maneuvers! You can't go wrong here.

I see what youre saying with early rogue levels.

Seeing as you were kind enough to reply I would love your opinion on this.

Lvl 1-3 Rogue
4-8 fighter (for the extra attack)
9-12 Warlock
12-? Probably fighter

It would mean that I would get a weaker SA by 1d6 but I would have 2 attacks to land it.
I was also wondering if you could elaborate why it would be fun to have a familiar with a rogue? I read the spell but Im afraid to say that I cant see what use it would have.
Darkness and Devil sight on the other hand, now that does sound like a lot of fun!

[Kefvin]

Another alternative would be

Rogue 1-5 for the 3d6 sneak and ASI
6-8 fighter to get BM
9-12 warlock
12-? Fighter

Would get the extra attack a lot later but would be doing more damage with sneak attack.

[Gignere]

Another alternative would be

Rogue 1-5 for the 3d6 sneak and ASI
6-8 fighter to get BM
9-12 warlock
12-? Fighter

Would get the extra attack a lot later but would be doing more damage with sneak attack.

I think if you can swing it starting fighter for the con saves armor and weapon proficiencies, might be the best way to go.

However if it fits better you can also start rogue, I would recommend

1 rogue
3 warlock
2 more rogue
3 fighter

This will get you pretty much all you want by level 9.

[Kefvin]

I think if you can swing it starting fighter for the con saves armor and weapon proficiencies, might be the best way to go.

However if it fits better you can also start rogue, I would recommend

1 rogue
3 warlock
2 more rogue
3 fighter

This will get you pretty much all you want by level 9.


Would you care to elaborate on your recommendation :) ?

[Gignere]

Would you care to elaborate on your recommendation :) ?

Well the roguelock you are basically abusing the darkness/devil sight for bonus action hides every turn. This guarantees advantage/sneak attack every turn. The minimum level you need to get this is 2 rogue/ 3 warlock.

I recommend starting rogue since warlock doesn't give you rapier proficiencies. Once you have the basic chassis, grab 1 more level of rogue to get swashbuckler because this is your concept. Now go fighter for 3 levels to get battlemaster to get riposte and precise maneuvers.

This will get you a versatile combatant that can almost always sneak attack, become untargettable by spells, have reaction attack for off turn sneak attacks.

[Fishyninja]

riposte

This, I am not kidding, I am playing a Fighter who is a battlemaster and this is such a good move, it can really change the dynamic of a battle by removing one enemy (depending on their HP), based on their failed roll!

[Vaz]

Is Battle Master really what you want? I know it only has Dex 13 as prereq, but I'd suggest seeing ifnthe DM will waive the arbitrary Str 13 requisite for a Paladin in favour of Dex 13.

A Paladin of Vengeance gets Advantage on his Channel Divinity which is bulk damage for a Sneak Attacker. The combined synergy with Paladin means that you can pick up Warlock easily.

You also get access to bulk damage in the form of Smites, and combining Searing Smite with Undying Light Warlock alongside Sneak Attack is stupid good.

Plus, the spells and the cantrip; Shillelagh picked up via Tomelock, Darkness or Invisibility as your 2nd level spell, Guidance via Tomelock, Resistance for an out of combat +4 to any one save you want, Minor Ilusion, Dancing Lights to lure away guards, Friends for a quick get me out of here! When confronted.

Hex on a duel wielding sneak attacking dual wielding clubbing guy is golden. Misty Step, mirror image are also options. Throw on Paladin spells like Shield of Faith, or Wrathful Smite (as another way of generating Advantage - if you can get someone else to Hex or keep it failing Wis Ability Checks that is like a full combat.

Throw on Eldritch Blast which scales with Char Level, and you have a rather good character that trades Wis dependancy for Str.

Sorry if thats not your desire though!

[Ashuan21]

I see what youre saying with early rogue levels.

Seeing as you were kind enough to reply I would love your opinion on this.

Lvl 1-3 Rogue
4-8 fighter (for the extra attack)
9-12 Warlock
12-? Probably fighter

It would mean that I would get a weaker SA by 1d6 but I would have 2 attacks to land it.
I was also wondering if you could elaborate why it would be fun to have a familiar with a rogue? I read the spell but Im afraid to say that I cant see what use it would have.
Darkness and Devil sight on the other hand, now that does sound like a lot of fun!

This progression seems nice, but I think you can forgo the Extra Attack to later levels if you go for a 2 weapons build (2 possibilities to land that sweet Sneak Attack from the very first level). You could go for something like:

1-3 Rogue
4-5 Warlock
6-7 Rogue (for the Asi, the 3D6 SA and the almighty Uncanny Dodge (which couples perfectly with Riposte)
8-11 Fighter (Maneuvers (damage), HPs, Defense fighting style (to boost Riposte), ASI)
and then whatever you prefer (with Fighter being probably the best option and allowing you to dump the two weapons as soon as you get the Extra Attack)

The familiar provided by the Warlock Pact is not a simple familiar as for "Find Familiar", it could be an Imp, an invisible familiar which can use the Help action on each of its turns to grant you and your allies Advantage and can be used as an intelligent scout and roleplaying tool soooo often, I love it.
If your DM is veeeery kind it may even allow you to get the Magic Resistance that most of these familiars may provide to their master.

Paladin/Warlock is wonderful but I think it is a different story from Swashbuckler/Battlemaster, with a completely different taste... still wonderful!!

[Kefvin]

Is Battle Master really what you want? I know it only has Dex 13 as prereq, but I'd suggest seeing ifnthe DM will waive the arbitrary Str 13 requisite for a Paladin in favour of Dex 13.

A Paladin of Vengeance gets Advantage on his Channel Divinity which is bulk damage for a Sneak Attacker. The combined synergy with Paladin means that you can pick up Warlock easily.

You also get access to bulk damage in the form of Smites, and combining Searing Smite with Undying Light Warlock alongside Sneak Attack is stupid good.

Plus, the spells and the cantrip; Shillelagh picked up via Tomelock, Darkness or Invisibility as your 2nd level spell, Guidance via Tomelock, Resistance for an out of combat +4 to any one save you want, Minor Ilusion, Dancing Lights to lure away guards, Friends for a quick get me out of here! When confronted.

Hex on a duel wielding sneak attacking dual wielding clubbing guy is golden. Misty Step, mirror image are also options. Throw on Paladin spells like Shield of Faith, or Wrathful Smite (as another way of generating Advantage - if you can get someone else to Hex or keep it failing Wis Ability Checks that is like a full combat.

Throw on Eldritch Blast which scales with Char Level, and you have a rather good character that trades Wis dependancy for Str.

Sorry if thats not your desire though!

As nice as this does sound the bas SB/BM build will stand. Ive always seen Paladin as the one class to not multi into or out of :)

[Vaz]

Completely understandable. I'm afraid i have little to add elsewise, just hoped to offer some insights for how the mechanics tied together.

Also, classes are a bag of mechanics to represent your character, not a thing in and of themself; if you can refluff a full class, you can refluff a couple of classes to meld together ;)

[Kefvin]

This progression seems nice, but I think you can forgo the Extra Attack to later levels if you go for a 2 weapons build (2 possibilities to land that sweet Sneak Attack from the very first level). You could go for something like:

1-3 Rogue
4-5 Warlock
6-7 Rogue (for the Asi, the 3D6 SA and the almighty Uncanny Dodge (which couples perfectly with Riposte)
8-11 Fighter (Maneuvers (damage), HPs, Defense fighting style (to boost Riposte), ASI)
and then whatever you prefer (with Fighter being probably the best option and allowing you to dump the two weapons as soon as you get the Extra Attack)

The familiar provided by the Warlock Pact is not a simple familiar as for "Find Familiar", it could be an Imp, an invisible familiar which can use the Help action on each of its turns to grant you and your allies Advantage and can be used as an intelligent scout and roleplaying tool soooo often, I love it.
If your DM is veeeery kind it may even allow you to get the Magic Resistance that most of these familiars may provide to their master.

Paladin/Warlock is wonderful but I think it is a different story from Swashbuckler/Battlemaster, with a completely different taste... still wonderful!!

Ive always pictured my charname as a duelist so I dont think 2 weapon fighting will happen, also you can only TWF with light weapons and my charname definitely has a Rapier haha!
Thank you very much for explaining familiar, being able to help is an amazing thing to have flying around. Also Thanks for advice on building my charname!

[Fishyninja]

Ok so to fall into the 'swashbuckler/Duellist' build with your Battle Master I would suggest the three following maneuvers to start with.

Maneuvering Attack
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to maneuver one of your comrades into a more advantageous position. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and you choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you. That creature can use its reaction to move up to half its speed without provoking opportunity attacks from the target of your attack.Seriously, if you are being a dueller and aswasbuckler, when you look at all the great duels in film and cinema history not only do they use the terrain to their adbantage they position their allies into advantageous positons too.

Parry
When another creature damages you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction and expend one
superiority die to reduce the damage by the number you roll on your superiority die + your Dexterity modifier.Incoming damage reduction is always nice.

Riposte
When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction and expend one superiority die to make a melee weapon attack against the creature. If you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll.Free Extra attack with added damage.....Yes please

[Ashuan21]

Be aware that Parry competes with Uncanny Dodge for your reaction so it should be switched as soon as you reach Rogue 5... (if you will)

If TWF is not your way then yes, plan to get Extra Attack soon enough (as for your example) or try to find solid sources for Advantage, such as Warlock 3 (Devil Sight + Darkness and Chain pact) or Shield Master (combined with expertise in Athletics and a decent STR can be a huge boost for a Rogue)!

[Gignere]

From a pure DPR optimization PoV the three maneuvers to nab for a rogue is precise, riposte, and trip attack. Precise can turn near misses into hits, riposte gives you a use of your reaction when your enemies' attack misses which complements uncanny dodge, and trip attack can give you some more control and damage and set up advantage for yourself or other melee party member.

Honorable mention menacing is probably as good as trip but if you abuse darkness it is less effective since it only works if target sees you.

[Kefvin]

Be aware that Parry competes with Uncanny Dodge for your reaction so it should be switched as soon as you reach Rogue 5... (if you will)

If TWF is not your way then yes, plan to get Extra Attack soon enough (as for your example) or try to find solid sources for Advantage, such as Warlock 3 (Devil Sight + Darkness and Chain pact) or Shield Master (combined with expertise in Athletics and a decent STR can be a huge boost for a Rogue)!

I think going warlock 3 is on the cards. Noticed that mirror image is available as Well as darkness. Thanks for all the help!

[Kefvin]

From a pure DPR optimization PoV the three maneuvers to nab for a rogue is precise, riposte, and trip attack. Precise can turn near misses into hits, riposte gives you a use of your reaction when your enemies' attack misses which complements uncanny dodge, and trip attack can give you some more control and damage and set up advantage for yourself or other melee party member.

Honorable mention menacing is probably as good as trip but if you abuse darkness it is less effective since it only works if target sees you.

Those are the maneuvers Ive been looking at! Although I might swap trip for goading (My charname being a cocky Urchin hardknock haha)

Thanks for all the help!

[djreynolds]

Another alternative would be

Rogue 1-5 for the 3d6 sneak and ASI
6-8 fighter to get BM
9-12 warlock
12-? Fighter

Would get the extra attack a lot later but would be doing more damage with sneak attack.

Why not just warlock/rogue?

I like BM, and disarm, trip, and riposte would be cool for a swashbuckler.

Can always by a bull's eye lantern?

Another option could be ranger, deep stalker grants darkvision at 3rd?

But if the issue is darkvision, take warlock earlier instead of later, because by 9th level you should be able to stumble across some night vision magic... and your party by then should have a spell they could spare

[Kefvin]

Ive now boiled it down to 3 different ways of building my charname. Critique and criticism is always welcome :)


Rogue/warlock/fighter V1

Lvl 1:Rogue
Lvl2: Rogue
Lvl 3: R2/W1 archfey/Fiend (Still unsure, depends on my HP rolls as temp HP is good if HP is weak)
Lvl 4: R2/W2 Devils Sight, Agonising Blast
Lvl 5: R2/W3 Pact of the Chain, Darkness
Lvl6: R3/W3 Swashbuckler
Lvl7: R4/W3 ASI
Lvl8: R4/W3/F1 Duelist
Lvl9: R4/W3/F2
Lvl10 R4/W3/F3 Battlemaster maneuvers Riposte, Precission (Trip or Goad)
Lvl11 R5/W3/F3 Uncanny Dodge SA 3d6
Lvl12 - ? Probably fighter for more ASI and extra attack


Rogue/warlock/fighter V2

Lvl 1:Rogue
Lvl2: Rogue
Lvl 3: Rouge Swashbuckler
Lvl 4: R3/ W1archfey/Fiend (Still unsure, depends on my HP rolls as temp HP is good if HP is weak)
Lvl 5: R3/W2 Devils Sight, Agonising Blast
Lvl6: R3W3 Pact of the Chain, Darkness
Lvl7: R4/W3 ASI
Lvl8: R5/W3 Uncanny dodge
Lvl9: R5/W3/F1 Duelist
Lvl10 R5/W3/F2
Lvl11 R5/W3/F3 Battlemaster maneuvers Riposte, Precission (Trip or Goad)
Lvl12 - ? Probably fighter for more ASI and extra attack

Of these 2 I prefer V1 one as by lvl 5 you will be covered in darkness / mirror imageing and backstabbing.
V2 does get Uncanny dodge earlier than V1 and V1 wont be able to disengage without opp attacks because the buckler doesnt come in til lvl 6

Here is a short version of V3 The picks will be the same for progression.

Rogue 1-3
Fighter 4-8 (to pick up asi and extra attack early)
Warlock 9-12
12- ? Prob fighter.

V3 does get the extra attack in early but apart from that I dont really like it all that much.


Regards Kefvin

[djreynolds]

What is the actual level you will begin play as? 1? 12?

Rogue 6 is 2 more skills with expertise?

Have you considerer shadow monk?

[Ashuan21]

All of your options are perfectly valid, with their differences being mostly a matter of personal preference so go for V1 if you like it!!
All of them tend to push ASIs to later levels so you may have to tweak them somehow in case your stats are not stellar!
If you will use Point Buy you may become a quite MAD (after all you need reasonablyhigh/decent Dex, Char, Con, Wis...) so I would prefer to roll and hope for good luck!!)

[djreynolds]

All of your options are perfectly valid, with their differences being mostly a matter of personal preference so go for V1 if you like it!!
All of them tend to push ASIs to later levels so you may have to tweak them somehow in case your stats are not stellar!
If you will use Point Buy you may become a quite MAD (after all you need reasonablyhigh/decent Dex, Char, Con, Wis...) so I would prefer to roll and hope for good luck!!)

I like V1 as well, if you want the darkvision and darkness, get it as early as possible, maybe even grab warlock at 2nd level and 3rd, and then pick up with rogue.

IMO... get your goodies early.
1 rogue 1 ( stealth /perception)
2 warlock 1 EB will carry
3 warlock 2 Devils Sight, Agonizing Blast
4 fighter 1, get duelist style, medium armor and a shield, second wind
5 fighter 2(EB is now 2d10)
6 fighter 3 battlemaster, action surge, your maneuvers... trip is good, precision, riposte... you want
some SD so if you do hit and need extra damage, or if you crit.. here "trip" on this too.

now you can just be that character concept you want, EB with agonizing at 5th level is 2d10 plus charisma and it should carry you for a time

[Kefvin]

What is the actual level you will begin play as? 1? 12?

Rogue 6 is 2 more skills with expertise?

Have you considerer shadow monk?

We start at lvl 1 and shadow monk is not an option this campaign around :)

If I fail alot of my rolls I might go lvl 6 rogue.

[Kefvin]

All of your options are perfectly valid, with their differences being mostly a matter of personal preference so go for V1 if you like it!!
All of them tend to push ASIs to later levels so you may have to tweak them somehow in case your stats are not stellar!
If you will use Point Buy you may become a quite MAD (after all you need reasonablyhigh/decent Dex, Char, Con, Wis...) so I would prefer to roll and hope for good luck!!)

Im almost ashamed to white the roll my daughter have me but here it come. With human +1 to everything bonus and how ive placed them:

Str 11
Dex 19
Con 17
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 17

That roll is one of the reasons that I really want to take advantage of multiclass.

[Kefvin]

I like V1 as well, if you want the darkvision and darkness, get it as early as possible, maybe even grab warlock at 2nd level and 3rd, and then pick up with rogue.

IMO... get your goodies early.
1 rogue 1 ( stealth /perception)
2 warlock 1 EB will carry
3 warlock 2 Devils Sight, Agonizing Blast
4 fighter 1, get duelist style, medium armor and a shield, second wind
5 fighter 2(EB is now 2d10)
6 fighter 3 battlemaster, action surge, your maneuvers... trip is good, precision, riposte... you want
some SD so if you do hit and need extra damage, or if you crit.. here "trip" on this too.

now you can just be that character concept you want, EB with agonizing at 5th level is 2d10 plus charisma and it should carry you for a time

This I like. I am however a bit worried about not being all that mobile. Lvl2 rogue gives bonus action hide/dash/disengage
Also SB gives me more passive mobility.

It all depends on the roles of my fellow adventurers. I know that there is a human ranger and a Dwarf Cleric so hoppfully one of them can be a "tank"
If that is the case then the above option might well be the one I play. :)

[Kefvin]

I like V1 as well, if you want the darkvision and darkness, get it as early as possible, maybe even grab warlock at 2nd level and 3rd, and then pick up with rogue.

IMO... get your goodies early.
1 rogue 1 ( stealth /perception)
2 warlock 1 EB will carry
3 warlock 2 Devils Sight, Agonizing Blast
4 fighter 1, get duelist style, medium armor and a shield, second wind
5 fighter 2(EB is now 2d10)
6 fighter 3 battlemaster, action surge, your maneuvers... trip is good, precision, riposte... you want
some SD so if you do hit and need extra damage, or if you crit.. here "trip" on this too.

now you can just be that character concept you want, EB with agonizing at 5th level is 2d10 plus charisma and it should carry you for a time


What does SD stand for?

[Ashuan21]

Superiority Dice, those that fuel the Maneuvers!

Those are wonderful stats!!!!! :smallbiggrin: you can definetely forgo most of your ASIs!

[Citan]

Hi!

We're starting a new campaign soon and Im going to play a standard human rogue going into BM at some point.

The campaign will start being no variant/no feat because reasons (I wanted feats)


Now here is the main issue.

Darkvision and how to acquire it.

Buying Goggles seems like the natural option but saving upp 1500gp and convincing the 3 other members that is is of the highest priority seems unlikely in the early levels.

There are spellcasters in the group but they wont be getting there 2nd lvl spells til lvl 3 at the earliest (sorceror and rnager in party that can get darkvision) and they might not want to have a spell especially for me...

I dont want to change to a race that has darkvision as that wont fit the character.

Now what Ive manage to find out is that warlock can get darkvision at lvl 2 and on top of that I found the Hex spell which I really like the look of. Dealing 1d6 extra damage whenever I hit just seems to good to pass up.

Dipping in to warlock will however come at the cost of later ability scores (not super worried as my daughter rolled GODLY stats for me) and also postpone the main SB/BM build

Im thinking Ill do it like this

Lvl 1 rogue
Lvl 2-3 warlock (to get hex and 2 invocations one being devil sight)
Lvl 4-7 rogue to get SB, ASI (dex 20) and 3d6 sneak
Lvl 8 - ? Fighter to pick duelist,BM etc


One worry is that the dmg output wont be great until lvl 8 but My dmg output should be OK as I get dex bonus on rapier and Hex dmg.
Will also be able to stealth/sneak attack pretty well as expert at stealth.

Is this a good idea or should I just tough it out in darkness til 1500gp is saved up.

Has anyone got experience using hex. My con is 16 so should have a decent chance of keeping concentration.

Thanks in advance for help. Also if this is in the wrong subforum or whatever please move it. New to this forum and forums in general :) / Kefvin
The build will be overall very viable.
But I would suggest postponing Warlock for later, unless you are in a campaign when you suspect the darkvision will come by handy very early.
Otherwise, Hex will not mean much at first, so I'd suggest Rogue 1 > Fighter 5 > Warlock 2 > Rogue X.
It does delay quite a bit the benefits of Rogue, which is a shame if you wanted to be in melee mainly, but in terms of attacks/damage it is probably the best.
If it bother you too much, then go Rogue 3 > Fighter 5 > Warlock 2 but now it's the Darkvision you will wait for quite a long time...

There is probably no definite "good solution" here, you will have to compromize. ;)

Im almost ashamed to white the roll my daughter have me but here it come. With human +1 to everything bonus and how ive placed them:

Str 11
Dex 19
Con 17
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 17

That roll is one of the reasons that I really want to take advantage of multiclass.
OMG. These are totally awesome. XD
I would be very tempted to gear you towards another build, one that takes advantage of your stats as bad as possible...
Swashbuckler 7 (Uncanny Dodge, 2* Expertise, Evasion) / Battlemaster 5 (TWF, manoeuvers) / Fiend Warlock 2 / Bladesinger Wizard 2-3-5 (+2 AC, +2 concentration, Shield, option Mirror Image, option Haste).
Should make a pretty beastly opponent. ;)

[Gignere]

Note if you keep up darkness you can disengage freely because unless targets can see you they don't get an opportunity attack.

So you can delay swashbuckler a bit, the main benefit is really against enemies that can see through your darkness.

That is why I like this progression:

R 1
W 2
W 3
W 4
R 2

In fact you can jump right into BM after R2 and not miss much and finish up R after BM 3.

It does delay your ASIs but you have such nice ability scores already not a big loss.

I prioritized the third level of warlock because you can get cantrips (guidance) and find familiar which is crazy good for a single attack rogue, when darkness doesn't work or is not feasible.

In fact cast the darkness on a pendant on your familiar (bat) and it can fly in and out or slip into a container you are holding so you can use darkness on demand.

[Ashuan21]

Note if you keep up darkness you can disengage freely because unless targets can see you they don't get an opportunity attack.

So you can delay swashbuckler a bit, the main benefit is really against enemies that can see through your darkness.

That is why I like this progression:

R 1
W 2
W 3
W 4
R 2

In fact you can jump right into BM after R2 and not miss much and finish up R after BM 3.

It does delay your ASIs but you have such nice ability scores already not a big loss.

I prioritized the third level of warlock because you can get cantrips (guidance) and find familiar which is crazy good for a single attack rogue, when darkness doesn't work or is not feasible.

In fact cast the darkness on a pendant on your familiar (bat) and it can fly in and out or slip into a container you are holding so you can use darkness on demand.

Keep in mind that:
1) You cannot always rely on Darkness to avoid danger, as many enemies have other senses (Tremorsense,Blindsight,Truesight)

2) In order to obtain all the benefits of Darkness you need a decent melee damage output, something that the Warlock and the first 2 Fighter levels won't give you. There's a risk to be unable to exploit your own build

[Gignere]

Keep in mind that:
1) You cannot always rely on Darkness to avoid danger, as many enemies have other senses (Tremorsense,Blindsight,Truesight)

2) In order to obtain all the benefits of Darkness you need a decent melee damage output, something that the Warlock and the first 2 Fighter levels won't give you. There's a risk to be unable to exploit your own build

Nah booming blade and green flame blade would keep you competitive. A level 5 rogue does 1d8 + 3d6 = 15 average damage

A 2 R / 3 W does 2d8 + 1d6 (12.5) with constant advantage so your DPR should be competitive. Assuming they don't trigger the rider.

[Ashuan21]

Nah booming blade and green flame blade would keep you competitive. A level 5 rogue does 1d8 + 3d6 = 15 average damage

A 2 R / 3 W does 2d8 + 1d6 (12.5) with constant advantage so your DPR should be competitive. Assuming they don't trigger the rider.

Ahh the great Booming Blade! Yeah that's right I forgot it, this is going to scale with level so it's perfect

[Kefvin]

Nah booming blade and green flame blade would keep you competitive. A level 5 rogue does 1d8 + 3d6 = 15 average damage

A 2 R / 3 W does 2d8 + 1d6 (12.5) with constant advantage so your DPR should be competitive. Assuming they don't trigger the rider.

But if I understand how spells/cantrips work (and Im not sure that I do) I at lvl 3 warlock only know 2 cantrips and in order to change them I need to gain a level in warlock?

Ive never played a spellcasting class before so I kind of want to keep it simple.

At lvl 3 Warlock (Very unlikely to go higher)
Cantrips:

EB as it is awesome

Booming Blade (Didnt even know of the cantrips in the Sword coast book til just now, thanks!)

Spells:

Darkness (a lot of potential)

Hex (I love the idea of it)

Mirror image (Takes me back to playing Baldurs gate so I have to have it)

Havent decided on 4th spell yet seeing as I only have 2 spell slots 3 spells is probably enough.

[Gignere]

But if I understand how spells/cantrips work (and Im not sure that I do) I at lvl 3 warlock only know 2 cantrips and in order to change them I need to gain a level in warlock?

Ive never played a spellcasting class before so I kind of want to keep it simple.

At lvl 3 Warlock (Very unlikely to go higher)
Cantrips:

EB as it is awesome

Booming Blade (Didnt even know of the cantrips in the Sword coast book til just now, thanks!)

Spells:

Darkness (a lot of potential)

Hex (I love the idea of it)

Mirror image (Takes me back to playing Baldurs gate so I have to have it)

Havent decided on 4th spell yet seeing as I only have 2 spell slots 3 spells is probably enough.

You also get to pick either tome, pet or blade for warlock at level 3. If you pick Tome at level 3 you also get to pick 3 cantrips from any spell list. So you can definitely get both BB and GFB and round it out with guidance and one more cantrip. My suggestion would be minor illusion or if you want even more combat versatility thorn whip.

I do recommend tome so you can also pick up the book of ancient secrets invocation to get find familiar.

[Biggstick]

But if I understand how spells/cantrips work (and Im not sure that I do) I at lvl 3 warlock only know 2 cantrips and in order to change them I need to gain a level in warlock?

Ive never played a spellcasting class before so I kind of want to keep it simple.

At lvl 3 Warlock (Very unlikely to go higher)
Cantrips:

EB as it is awesome

Booming Blade (Didnt even know of the cantrips in the Sword coast book til just now, thanks!)

Spells:

Darkness (a lot of potential)

Hex (I love the idea of it)

Mirror image (Takes me back to playing Baldurs gate so I have to have it)

Havent decided on 4th spell yet seeing as I only have 2 spell slots 3 spells is probably enough.

Any route for the pact you make will have an impact on the choices you make. What I want to draw your attention to is that you've already chosen the two second level spells you can have as a Warlock by grabbing Mirror Image and Darkness. Your 4th spell has to be a first level spell, as the way you're learning spells only allows for two second level spells.

With that in mind, I would urge you to grab Invisibility instead of Mirror Image. Having Invisibility for yourself as a Rogue is incredibly strong. No matter what kind of Rogue you are, being able to slap an Invisibility on yourself before combat starts is a great way to start the combat.

[Kefvin]

You also get to pick either tome, pet or blade for warlock at level 3. If you pick Tome at level 3 you also get to pick 3 cantrips from any spell list. So you can definitely get both BB and GFB and round it out with guidance and one more cantrip. My suggestion would be minor illusion or if you want even more combat versatility thorn whip.

I do recommend tome so you can also pick up the book of ancient secrets invocation to get find familiar.

That is indeed an option. Thanks for the tip!

[Kefvin]

Any route for the pact you make will have an impact on the choices you make. What I want to draw your attention to is that you've already chosen the two second level spells you can have as a Warlock by grabbing Mirror Image and Darkness. Your 4th spell has to be a first level spell, as the way you're learning spells only allows for two second level spells.

With that in mind, I would urge you to grab Invisibility instead of Mirror Image. Having Invisibility for yourself as a Rogue is incredibly strong. No matter what kind of Rogue you are, being able to slap an Invisibility on yourself before combat starts is a great way to start the combat.


That does make sense and is fluffy. The main reason for me wanting mirror image (apart from nostalgia) was that it makes me a bit more durable in combat for my mid-levels until I get BM maneuvers.

I Also have +8 on stealth checks so should be alright hopefully.

[Gignere]

That does make sense and is fluffy. The main reason for me wanting mirror image (apart from nostalgia) was that it makes me a bit more durable in combat for my mid-levels until I get BM maneuvers.

I Also have +8 on stealth checks so should be alright hopefully.

Darkness in 5E mechanics pretty much does most of what invisibility and mirror image do for a warlock and it is countered by exactly the same thing that counters invisibility and mirror image. I think you may want to consider a different second level spell like misty step instead. Because it opens up options you don't have already.

[Kefvin]

Darkness in 5E mechanics pretty much does most of what invisibility and mirror image do for a warlock and it is countered by exactly the same thing that counters invisibility and mirror image. I think you may want to consider a different second level spell like misty step instead. Because it opens up options you don't have already.

Problem is that me spamming darkness and being the only one that can see in it might ruin the fun for other players and DM. I Also have a feeling i might get bored of doing it all the time.

[Biggstick]

Darkness in 5E mechanics pretty much does most of what invisibility and mirror image do for a warlock and it is countered by exactly the same thing that counters invisibility and mirror image. I think you may want to consider a different second level spell like misty step instead. Because it opens up options you don't have already.

Mechanically they're similar, but there is a big difference in an Invisibility and Darkness in terms of out of combat use. Sneaking into a fortified camp during the day will be pretty difficult utilizing Darkness. It also only lasts for 10 minutes, as compared to the hour of Invisibility. I'd also like to point out that a +8 to stealth won't really help if the area you're attempting to sneak into (or out of) doesn't have anything you can feasibly utilize to sneak around. A big open field has nothing to hide behind, where as someone who has the Invisibility spell doesn't have to worry about finding something to sneak behind to get into places.

I disagree with the choice of Misty Step, as the OP has already indicated that they're going Rogue. While Misty Step and Cunning Action Dash are distinctly different, I don't think the 30' teleport is bringing enough options to the table that aren't already mostly there. Cunning Action Dash/Disengage more then cover the OP's need for mobility options.

If you're that sold on Mirror Image, then go for it. I'm just saying you're going to find way more situations where an hour of Invisibility will serve a much greater purpose than a slight buff to defensive capabilities for 1 minute during combat.

[Gignere]

Mechanically they're similar, but there is a big difference in an Invisibility and Darkness in terms of out of combat use. Sneaking into a fortified camp during the day will be pretty difficult utilizing Darkness. It also only lasts for 10 minutes, as compared to the hour of Invisibility. I'd also like to point out that a +8 to stealth won't really help if the area you're attempting to sneak into (or out of) doesn't have anything you can feasibly utilize to sneak around. A big open field has nothing to hide behind, where as someone who has the Invisibility spell doesn't have to worry about finding something to sneak behind to get into places.

I disagree with the choice of Misty Step, as the OP has already indicated that they're going Rogue. While Misty Step and Cunning Action Dash are distinctly different, I don't think the 30' teleport is bringing enough options to the table that aren't already mostly there. Cunning Action Dash/Disengage more then cover the OP's need for mobility options.

If you're that sold on Mirror Image, then go for it. I'm just saying you're going to find way more situations where an hour of Invisibility will serve a much greater purpose than a slight buff to defensive capabilities for 1 minute during combat.

As one who has a wizard with misty step, it opens up way more options than even cunning action. In game examples ghouls capsized our boat everyone falls into water even cunning action doesn't do anything until you can make an athletics check but since the 6 seconds combat happens at the same time my DM ruled that using misty step gets me back to the dock without even getting wet.

Another time there was a gated area and the trap locked us all in since the lock was not pickable but I just misty step through the bars since all misty step need is LoS and bars don't block LoS. I was able to engage the lever that unlocked the gates. There were other instances where the rogue was helpless but misty step provided a way to circumvent the obstacles. Teleportation is practically broken.

[Biggstick]

As one who has a wizard with misty step, it opens up way more options than even cunning action. In game examples ghouls capsized our boat everyone falls into water even cunning action doesn't do anything until you can make an athletics check but since the 6 seconds combat happens at the same time my DM ruled that using misty step gets me back to the dock without even getting wet.

That's an extremely generous DM.

I'm assuming you're in a small boat, or one that is similar to a rowboat. If you're in anything larger, it's going to be some distance to from the water to the dock (read, probably further then 30'). So since it's a rowboat and you've been capsized, and you're less then thirty feet from the docks, I would say it isn't too big of a deal to utilize the extra movement granted from Cunning action Dash/Disengage to make our way to the docks.

As for your ability to use Misty Step, you would still arguably have to make the Athletics check to stay afloat in the water. Misty Step has a verbal component, and being underwater in games I've played keeps most PC's from being able to speak the verbal component of their spells (unless they have Waterbreathing, or some other way to breathe underwater). So with my in-game experience, you as the Wizard would still have to make the Athletics check before you can attempt the Misty Step. Seeing as how you're only thirty feet away from the docks, it isn't a big deal being able to swim to said dock.


Another time there was a gated area and the trap locked us all in since the lock was not pickable but I just misty step through the bars since all misty step need is LoS and bars don't block LoS. I was able to engage the lever that unlocked the gates. There were other instances where the rogue was helpless but misty step provided a way to circumvent the obstacles. Teleportation is practically broken.

I'll counter with something that costs even less. Mage Hand could accomplish the task of pulling a lever without even burning a spell slot. Both of your examples have been of your experience as a Wizard, not as a Rogue (or multi-classed one at that). Wizards have plenty more spell slots to utilize, where as the 2-3 level dip into Warlock only provides two 1st or 2nd level spell slots per short rest. You also don't have the luxury of changing prepared spells on the daily as a Warlock. I'm basing my advice off of personal experience, as I've played two characters to above level 10 that were Rogues with 3 level dips into Warlock.

I'll agree that the ability to Teleport is extremely powerful. I also think that the player is going to get mover overall value out of the Invisibility spell compared to either Misty Step or Mirror Image throughout the duration of his/her campaign. I don't think either of us is going to be swayed toward the others recommendation, so let's just focus on presenting all the choices available to the OP in creating the character they want to make.

[djreynolds]

Im almost ashamed to white the roll my daughter have me but here it come. With human +1 to everything bonus and how ive placed them:

Str 11
Dex 19
Con 17
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 17

That roll is one of the reasons that I really want to take advantage of multiclass.

With these stats, and the simple power of EB and BB/GFB.... there is no need for the fighter class.

With BB there is no need for an extra attack

With a dex of 19, and your multiple ways of obtaining advantage... you will not miss enough where you really need the precision maneuver from battlemaster.

I would personally dump the fighter class from this build.

I would suggest taking 2 levels of sorcerer, draconic, for + 3 natural armor plus dex 17-18AC, snagging the shield spell, and meta-magic. And either use uncanny dodge or the shield for your reaction depending on the circumstance and get more cantrips and more spell slots and twin and quicken spells.

[Kefvin]

With these stats, and the simple power of EB and BB/GFB.... there is no need for the fighter class.

With BB there is no need for an extra attack

With a dex of 19, and your multiple ways of obtaining advantage... you will not miss enough where you really need the precision maneuver from battlemaster.

I would personally dump the fighter class from this build.

I would suggest taking 2 levels of sorcerer, draconic, for + 3 natural armor plus dex 17-18AC, snagging the shield spell, and meta-magic. And either use uncanny dodge or the shield for your reaction depending on the circumstance and get more cantrips and more spell slots and twin and quicken spells.

The party already has a sorc (wild mage) so dont want to infringe on that class. Also the original build was for what I call the "Battlebuckler" then I wanted to get darkvision and now here we are :)

[djreynolds]

The party already has a sorc (wild mage) so dont want to infringe on that class. Also the original build was for what I call the "Battlebuckler" then I wanted to get darkvision and now here we are :)

Well concept matters most. So stick with your plan, see how it goes. Sounds like a very fun build.

[Kefvin]

Oh lordie here we go.

After reading up on Warlock and spells in general made me consider this build as well. This is how it ends isnt it? You keep on seeing viable builds forever and ever and ever :)

Im not used to this at all. Last PF campaign I played a straight up Half-Orc Barbarian that was good at smashing things and raging.

Rogue/Warlock/Fighter V 1.2

Lvl 1:Rogue

Lvl2: Rogue Cunning Action

Lvl 3: R2/W1 Fiend
Cantrips: Eldritch blast,booming blade

Spells: hex, arms of hadar

Lvl 4: R2/W2 Devils Sight, Beguiling influence
Spells: Hellish rebuke

Lvl 5: R2/W3 Pact of the Chain (Imp)
Spells: Darkness, invisibility (Swap arms of hadar)

Lvl6: R3/W3 Swashbuckler

Lvl7: R3/W4 ASI +1 dex, +1 cha (dex 20, cha 18)
Cantrip: Green-Flame Blade
Spell: Mirror image

Lvl8: R3/W5
Invocation: Agonising Blast
Spell: Counterspell

Lvl9: R3/W5/F1 Duelist

Lvl10: R3/W5/F2

Lvl11: R3/W5/F3 Battlemaster maneuvers Riposte, Precission (Trip or Goad)

Lvl 12 ---> ? From here I will have to see what class I take to lvl 5.

My cantrips here will be: EB, BB and GFB

Spells:
lvl 1: Hex, Hellish Rebuke (lovely for fluff alone)
lvl 2: Invisibility, Mirror image, Darkness
Lvl 3: Counterspell


One worry is since I dont have uncanny dodge I run the risk of taking a lot of damage in close combat. On the other hand I will be getting +9 temp HP per kill with Warlock level + Cha bonus.
My SA dmg will only be 2d6 but at lvl 8 All of my cantrips will be ALOT better.

If I do run out of cantrips/spells my standard dmg output of 1d8 + 7 (and adding 2d6 for SA) whenever its my turn (plus BM dmg and maneuvers) should be fine right?
There will be buffs from a bard and a cleric in the party as well.

Any thoughts with regards to this build?