Barbarian Frenzy

[Escribblings]

After much toying with the idea of the Bear-Totem-Warrior, and finally my first taste of actual game play, I am actually changing my mind.

RP wise, it makes much more sense for my character (who will eventually be a dual class Barbarian Fighter) to take the path of the Berserker.

It is a far more perilous path as exhaustion is a NASTY consequence, but it fits oh so much better.

I started with Barbarian.

I'm definitely taking Barbarian to 3, although I'm dipping fighter for 1 as soon I level. I know it wasn't recommended in my last post as it delays an ASI, but I have a pretty well rounded character (17,17,17,13,14,12) and it gets me my fighting style and second wind.

So I'm now looking at a Berserker/GWF Champion. This should be fun.

But I do have some questions regarding frenzy.


Frenzy

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the Duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon Attack as a Bonus Action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of Exhaustion (as described in Conditions ).

1. ...you can go into a frenzy when you rage...

(i) does this mean you can go from 0 to frenzied in the same turn? I believe it does, but need clarification.

(ii) if you are already raging, can you on your next turn upgrade your rage to frenzy? RP wise it would make sense that you could get angrier over time.

2. ...for the Duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon Attack as a Bonus Action on each of your turns after this one...

I'm presuming that you don't get the "bonus" attack on the same turn that you frenzy because frenzy is your bonus action (and they don't stack) - is this interpretation correct?

3. Apart from a long rest with food and water, are there any other ways to dispel exhaustion?

[Flashy]

1. ...you can go into a frenzy when you rage...

(i) does this mean you can go from 0 to frenzied in the same turn? I believe it does, but need clarification.

(ii) if you are already raging, can you on your next turn upgrade your rage to frenzy? RP wise it would make sense that you could get angrier over time.

2. ...for the Duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon Attack as a Bonus Action on each of your turns after this one...

I'm presuming that you don't get the "bonus" attack on the same turn that you frenzy because frenzy is your bonus action (and they don't stack) - is this interpretation correct?

3. Apart from a long rest with food and water, are there any other ways to dispel exhaustion?

1i: Yes, it does.

1ii: It's not clearly defined but I don't see why you shouldn't be able to Frenzy while already raging.

2: Your interpretation is correct, you can only take a single bonus action on any given turn. That being said, the wording seems to specify that even if you could take two bonus actions on the first turn of the rage you wouldn't be allowed to make the Frenzy bonus attack until your next turn.

3. The 5th level spell Greater Restoration (which has a 150gp consumed material component) will also remove a single level of exhaustion. As far as I am aware there are no other RAW options for reducing a character's exhaustion. Some people houserule that Lesser Restoration can reduce exhaustion in an effort to make it a less punishing mechanic.

[Quoxis]

I wanted to ask this for a long time: why do berserkers blow so hard? I mean, nothing wrong with a bonus action attack, but the cost for it is mean and with a GM that likes multiple encounters per day it's dangerous and nearly unplayable - one level of exhaustion gives you disadvantage on ability checks (which includes initiative, if i'm not mistaken), a second one halves your speed (which 99% of barbarians need because they're built for close combat), a third one makes you practically useless in combat because you get disadvantage on attack and saving rolls and if you survive long enough to get to the fourth frenzy per day, your max hp are halved.
Meanwhile totem barbs get boni for free without any bad side to it.
Am i overstating exhaustion or overlooking something?
Do berserk barbarians simply not use more than one frenzy per day?

[Lombra]

Fun fact: you can attack as a bonus action even if you don't take the attack action, which means that you can dodge, dash, disengage, anything AND make an attack, which greatly improves your rage efficiency.

*while frenzying, obviously

[Lance Tankmen]

I honestly see frenzy barbarian unplayable as only 2 of its 4 things are any good. No one in their right mind should frenzy in a fight. Unless meta knowledge it's the last one for that entire day so exhaustion doesn't ruin you.

[Lombra]

I wanted to ask this for a long time: why do berserkers blow so hard? I mean, nothing wrong with a bonus action attack, but the cost for it is mean and with a GM that likes multiple encounters per day it's dangerous and nearly unplayable - one level of exhaustion gives you disadvantage on ability checks (which includes initiative, if i'm not mistaken), a second one halves your speed (which 99% of barbarians need because they're built for close combat), a third one makes you practically useless in combat because you get disadvantage on attack and saving rolls and if you survive long enough to get to the fourth frenzy per day, your max hp are halved.
Meanwhile totem barbs get boni for free without any bad side to it.
Am i overstating exhaustion or overlooking something?
Do berserk barbarians simply not use more than one frenzy per day?

Berserkers can offset up to the third level of exhaustion with the native barbarian abilities:
Barbarians gain advantage on initiative checks and dexterity saving throws,
Have 10 ft of extra movement and can dash AND attack with frenzy so they won't lose their rage. Reckless attack allows you to attack normally even at third level of exhaustion.

Frenzy isn't an ability that has to be used in every encounter every day, you use it when the party is in danger and while you are not using it you are still barbarian, which kicks asses. The 6th level of the berserker is the best thing a barbarian (and the party of the barbarian) can ask for.

Look at what the totems give you: resistance to elemental damage and poison damage? The poison part isn't too bad at low levels, but most elemental threats require a save on which you have advantage, so no big deal here, on top of that you already have resistance to physical damage, which is the most common type of damage you will take as a barbarian.
The ability to run away from the enemies with little retaliation? That's not what a barbarian does.
Advantage on an enemy for your allies? You are a barbarian. Prone your enemy and gain advantage yourself too.
6th level totems are cool, but not comparable to a shelter for your mind.

[djreynolds]

I honestly see frenzy barbarian unplayable as only 2 of its 4 things are any good. No one in their right mind should frenzy in a fight. Unless meta knowledge it's the last one for that entire day so exhaustion doesn't ruin you.

I agree that the exhaustion is too much, ask for it be recovered on a short rest

But mind less rage at 6th, could be a game changer? There is no roll... immunity to fear and charm real early in the game, and unlike say protection from evil it is good versus everyone and does not require concentration to keep going


Fun fact: you can attack as a bonus action even if you don't take the attack action, which means that you can dodge, dash, disengage, anything AND make an attack, which greatly improves your rage efficiency.

*while frenzying, obviously

Dodge and a weapon attack... that could be useful versus and end the day boss fight where its victory and long rest... or its death and eternal rest

[Shaofoo]

I wanted to ask this for a long time: why do berserkers blow so hard? I mean, nothing wrong with a bonus action attack, but the cost for it is mean and with a GM that likes multiple encounters per day it's dangerous and nearly unplayable - one level of exhaustion gives you disadvantage on ability checks (which includes initiative, if i'm not mistaken), a second one halves your speed (which 99% of barbarians need because they're built for close combat), a third one makes you practically useless in combat because you get disadvantage on attack and saving rolls and if you survive long enough to get to the fourth frenzy per day, your max hp are halved.
Meanwhile totem barbs get boni for free without any bad side to it.
Am i overstating exhaustion or overlooking something?
Do berserk barbarians simply not use more than one frenzy per day?

You can fight without frenzy, you aren't forced to use it when you rage and instead not use it and not get exhaustion.

Also you haven't read what can Barbarians do, Barbarians can actually deal with the exhaustion effects.

Rage deals with the disadvantage on skill checks (Only strength but Strength is all you are).

It has extra speed to deal with the speed down

Reckless Attacks deal with disadvantage on saving throws (You should be Reckless Attacking every time anyway).

IN a way Resistance deals with the lowered HP.

Not to say that people should always Frenzy but the Barbarian can deal with it.


I honestly see frenzy barbarian unplayable as only 2 of its 4 things are any good. No one in their right mind should frenzy in a fight. Unless meta knowledge it's the last one for that entire day so exhaustion doesn't ruin you.

The first two levels don't do anything big to you. This is just people looking at the last level and saying that they can kill themselves if they overdo it. Why don't I hear people complaining that Wizards suck because they can kill themselves with a poorly placed fireball?

Seriously it should've been once a long rest so people could stop memeing it up about how Frenzy can kill you.

[BrusLi]

I think people are overreacting when it comes to Frenzy Barb.
He is one of those that looks bad on the paper ,but actually plays awesome.
Exhaustion isn't that bad,you can be effective even on level 3 ex.
Try it ,play it,you gonna love it!

[Escribblings]

Thank you, I'm glad I asked the question because I got a LOT more info than I asked for, all of it good.

Like many (it seems) I had completely overlooked the Barb's other abilities when it came to counter acting exhaustion.

I'm pleased I made the decision to switch away from Bear-Totem, you guys have just reinforced it.

It fits my character so much better. Plus, as a Goliath, Bear-Totem doubles up things that my race gives me anyway.

[PloxBox]

Berserkers can offset up to the third level of exhaustion with the native barbarian abilities:
Barbarians gain advantage on initiative checks and dexterity saving throws,
Have 10 ft of extra movement and can dash AND attack with frenzy so they won't lose their rage. Reckless attack allows you to attack normally even at third level of exhaustion.

Frenzy isn't an ability that has to be used in every encounter every day, you use it when the party is in danger and while you are not using it you are still barbarian, which kicks asses. The 6th level of the berserker is the best thing a barbarian (and the party of the barbarian) can ask for.

Look at what the totems give you: resistance to elemental damage and poison damage? The poison part isn't too bad at low levels, but most elemental threats require a save on which you have advantage, so no big deal here, on top of that you already have resistance to physical damage, which is the most common type of damage you will take as a barbarian.
The ability to run away from the enemies with little retaliation? That's not what a barbarian does.
Advantage on an enemy for your allies? You are a barbarian. Prone your enemy and gain advantage yourself too.
6th level totems are cool, but not comparable to a shelter for your mind.

I get what you're saying and all, but I also see some issues:
-Dex saving throws you get at 2nd level, which is nice, but you don't get advantage on initiative checks until 7th level. I can only speak for myself and the few people that I've played with, but most of us have never seen 7th level.
-Reckless attack does cancel out the disadvantage, but at the cost of giving enemies advantage to hit you. That's more chances for the enemy to crit against you. Which, if you're higher level and facing off against magical enemies, can be catastrophic as they'll laugh at your non-magical resistances.

-You're right, Frenzy isn't something to use for every encounter, but look at all the other starting archetype options for other classes. I can't think of any that is hindering in some way against the player, /and/ they can possibly be used every encounter (Save for the ones that say otherwise. I.E. Land Druids and Wizards spell recovery to give an example, both of which help the player keep using their spells throughout the day.).

-Bear totem is peace of mind if you're DM is known to throw magical attacks at the players, and makes a Barbarian even more suited to taking down spellcasters who are squishy; Its also very thematic in the vein of "Unstoppable force". Eagle totem also allows you to Dash as a bonus action, which can be used to get to a team-mate in help or chase down slippery enemies to keep rage up; The disadvantage on opportunity attacks is, again, great if you want to get to an enemy backline full of squishies with minimal damage taken. Wolf totem is a Team oriented rage benefit, pairing quite well with Champion fighters and melee rogues in particular.

-You're right that the Exploration-themed 6th level features of Totem aren't great against charms/fears.

[clash]

To add to this it doesn't matter how many levels a barbarian can handle, it only recovers one level power day so you can really only use one a day. Sure you can use the on the first day but then it is one a day after that and keep the penalties until you don't use it at all for three days. If your party doesn't have downtime that is three adventuring days you can't use it at all if you want your performance to recover. So either way you really are limited to one a day when it comes down to it.

[MeeposFire]

Also yes you get some abilities that eliminate the penalty but that also means you are no longer getting a bonus and that is not great any way you look at it.

Look at reckless attack. Before you use that to get advantage on your attack rolls which makes things like GWM actually work well for you. If you are using to only get rid of disadvantage then you are losing out on using that feat effectively and making you take more hits. You also no longer can really afford to use it when you need it but instead are forced to use reckless attack even in situations where you may normally not want to because it will end up making you take too much damage.

[vostyg]

From what I have observed, 90% of the people who label the Berserker subclass as "unplayable" have never played a Berserker, and therefore don't know what the hell they're talking about. Even as a once-per-day ability, Frenzy is excellent. I usually save it up for BBEG fights. Mindless Rage and Retaliation are also fantastic. Unless you're planning on picking up Polearm Master, I see no reason not to go with the Berserker subclass. In the games that I've participated in, resistance to Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning covers 80% of the damage I usually take. I also prefer the flavor of the Berserker barbarian, since the types of badasses I like to play aren't the sort to chat up bunnies and squirrels with their cute little totem abilities.

[djreynolds]

I honestly think if Bear-totem did not exist... berserker would be a very popular choice.

And not the other totems, bear specifically its power to half all damage other than psyche could come at 14th level and it would still be awesome. But that it comes at 3rd is often too much to pass up.

Mindless rage, would have been nice to have in CoS.

Our bear totem did nothing in the finale, she scattered like the rest of the party did. Fear and charm are nasty.

[Escribblings]

I also prefer the flavor of the Berserker barbarian, since the types of badasses I like to play aren't the sort to chat up bunnies and squirrels with their cute little totem abilities.

This is my character exactly and why I decided to step away from the bear.

Looking at all the comments, even with the penalties, this looks like the right decision for me.

I can't wait to try it out. Still lvl 1 atm lol.

[Malifice]

After much toying with the idea of the Bear-Totem-Warrior, and finally my first taste of actual game play, I am actually changing my mind.

RP wise, it makes much more sense for my character (who will eventually be a dual class Barbarian Fighter) to take the path of the Berserker.

It is a far more perilous path as exhaustion is a NASTY consequence, but it fits oh so much better.

I started with Barbarian.

I'm definitely taking Barbarian to 3, although I'm dipping fighter for 1 as soon I level. I know it wasn't recommended in my last post as it delays an ASI, but I have a pretty well rounded character (17,17,17,13,14,12) and it gets me my fighting style and second wind.

So I'm now looking at a Berserker/GWF Champion. This should be fun.

But I do have some questions regarding frenzy.



1. ...you can go into a frenzy when you rage...

(i) does this mean you can go from 0 to frenzied in the same turn? I believe it does, but need clarification.

(ii) if you are already raging, can you on your next turn upgrade your rage to frenzy? RP wise it would make sense that you could get angrier over time.

2. ...for the Duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon Attack as a Bonus Action on each of your turns after this one...

I'm presuming that you don't get the "bonus" attack on the same turn that you frenzy because frenzy is your bonus action (and they don't stack) - is this interpretation correct?

3. Apart from a long rest with food and water, are there any other ways to dispel exhaustion?

Dont dip fighter till after Barb 5. You dont want to delay extra attack for any reason whatsoever.

After Barb 5, 3 levels of Champion fighter for the win.

You can frenzy as the same bonus action to enter rage. You have to wait till turn 2 to get your bonus action attack for reasons you explain above.

Greater restoration removes exhaustion. As does getting polymorphed or wild shaping into an elemental (the latter makes you immune).

[Escribblings]

Dont dip fighter till after Barb 5. You dont want to delay extra attack for any reason whatsoever.

I was going to argue against that, but I've just looked at the level up xp requirements and the gap between 5 & 6.

But I want that fighting style now *stamps feet petulantly*

[Shaofoo]

From what I have observed, 100% of the people who label the Berserker subclass as "unplayable" have never played a Berserker, and therefore don't know what the hell they're talking about. Even as a once-per-day ability, Frenzy is excellent. I usually save it up for BBEG fights. Mindless Rage and Retaliation are also fantastic. Unless you're planning on picking up Polearm Master, I see no reason not to go with the Berserker subclass. In the games that I've participated in, resistance to Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning covers 80% of the damage I usually take. I also prefer the flavor of the Berserker barbarian, since the types of badasses I like to play aren't the sort to chat up bunnies and squirrels with their cute little totem abilities.

FTFY, like I said many times people only think in memes and thus don't really analyze beyond what everyone regurgitates.

The same people will say that Sorcerers, 4 Element Monks and CHampions suck.

Of course there was a moment that apparently Frenzy is bad because it uses your bonus action, which I just see it as people complaining for the sake of complaining,

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Frenzy is almost useless if feats are allowed and you take GWM or PAM
My idea is frenzy should grant an attack like the Hunter Ranger's horde breaker attack, no use of bonus action

[mephnick]

Frenzy was definitely designed to be played in a campaign without feats which makes the BA attack much more rare and useful. I allow Lesser Restoration to remove 1 level of exhaustion and Greater to remove it all. I also allow medicine checks over long rests (Gritty Realism) to remove an extra level. Part of this was to offset my injury tables, but it has the added bonus of helping Berzerkers.

[Shaofoo]

Frenzy is almost useless if feats are allowed and you take GWM or PAM
My idea is frenzy should grant an attack like the Hunter Ranger's horde breaker attack, no use of bonus action

GWM doesn't always activate since it requires either a crit or someone dying to activate. If neither happens then you have wasted your bonus action.

PAM limits you to 1d4 attack as a bonus action not to mention that your main weapon will have to deal 1d10 as opposed to 1d12 or 2d6 which lowers your DPR. You can choose to deal up to 6d6 damage with Frenzy or 2d10+1d4 with PAM

Frenzy isn't useless with GWM and PAM. Maybe you wouldn't use it but there are very legitimate reasons one would Frenzy even with GWM and PAM.

As I have said before personal preference is not the same as actual analysis.

[Corsair14]

Kind of digging the concept, think I might give it a try with my char (dwarf with really big axe)next level. What it all comes down to is this is not a competitive game, its a role playing game with a dice rolling mechanic thrown in to handle fights. Who cares if it isn't the most efficient? Nobody is keeping score and you don't get bonus exp for having the best rolling character. It looks playable and combined with the other abilities of a barbarian, looks survivable. I think the exhaustion penalties are a bit too harsh but not so much it isn't a viable combat class.

[Steampunkette]

I allow my Frenzy barbs to remove one level of Frenzied Exhaustion on a Short Rest and allow Lesser Restoration to remove exhaustion in general.

It's a little more book-keeping (Keeping exhaustion stacks apart) but it's not like players get exhausted that often in regular play.

[Escribblings]

If I wanted pure hits, is probably have gone pure fighter.

I chose Barbarian because I liked it thematically and it made a change from my normal choice of standard fighters (only in computer games though, like Baldur's Gate, I've never done tabletop until now).

So here's the thing, I'm eventually aiming for Barb 7 and Fighter 11.

But I can't decide where to go beyond that

B7 F13 gains another use of indomitable
B8 F12 gains 1 extra ASI
B9 F11 gains a Brutal Crit die.

Whilst I would love that crit die, it won't actually be a lot of use. I'm thinking 8/12 would be the best option.

Taking barb to 5, then fighter to 3 as suggested above, can you think what would be the best path after that?

I'm thinking barb to 7 then fighter to 7.

[XmonkTad]

GWM doesn't always activate since it requires either a crit or someone dying to activate.

Most of the theorycrafting I've seen for GWM is of the -5/+10 part of the feat. The ability to add that extra damage to your bonus action attack really closes the gap between PAM and Frenzy's bonus action attack.

PAM with GWM can still reckless attack plus "power attack" for 2.5+10+str while Frenzy with GWM can get a bonus action attack for 6.5+10+str. Not a huge gap. PAM also gives you a bit of area control, and doesn't require exhaustion, etc.

I love the flavor of frenzy, exhaustion and all. But I feel it has too many downsides, most painful to me not being able to get it's bonus attack on the first round.

[Lombra]

If I wanted pure hits, is probably have gone pure fighter.

I chose Barbarian because I liked it thematically and it made a change from my normal choice of standard fighters (only in computer games though, like Baldur's Gate, I've never done tabletop until now).

So here's the thing, I'm eventually aiming for Barb 7 and Fighter 11.

But I can't decide where to go beyond that

B7 F13 gains another use of indomitable
B8 F12 gains 1 extra ASI
B9 F11 gains a Brutal Crit die.

Whilst I would love that crit die, it won't actually be a lot of use. I'm thinking 8/12 would be the best option.

Taking barb to 5, then fighter to 3 as suggested above, can you think what would be the best path after that?

I'm thinking barb to 7 then fighter to 7.

I wouldn't even multiclass if you are sure you'll get to level 20. Barbarian's capstone literally breaks the rules of the game. Not to mention retaliation, all those rage bonuses and the "never going to fail a STR check ever" ability.

[Escribblings]

I wouldn't even multiclass if you are sure you'll get to level 20. Barbarian's capstone literally breaks the rules of the game. Not to mention retaliation, all those rage bonuses and the "never going to fail a STR check ever" ability.

Maybe, but where's the FUN in that?

It's like playing Doom with God Mode on.

[Corsair14]

If you have never done tabletop before, then you might want to know the odds of playing a campaign lasting 20 levels is fairly slim. Most go no further than 5-7 levels from start. Characters get boring or too powerful, the DM loses interest( or goes to jail, true story), narrative slow advancement, someone else wants to run a game, etc etc. In over 26 years of tabletop RPGing, I have never played a game where a character made it over 12 and I am far from alone. We have been playing a campaign of mine once a week for two months and some change and they just hit level 3. So don't worry about the long game unless you are sure the game is actually going to go that long, and play the character for the now and short run. This board I have noticed has this un-explainable fascination with long term planning of characters into the late teens and twenties.

Conversely I had levelless games like the old star wars d6 system game have campaigns that lasted a decade, + on and off games later, with some will remain nameless characters becoming official canon. When characters only gain slight increases over time as opposed to major powers gained every level, the characters stay interesting longer, at least that's what I noticed. There's more RP and thus more interest in making them alive.

[Escribblings]

If you have never done tabletop before, then you might want to know the odds of playing a campaign lasting 20 levels is fairly slim. Most go no further than 5-7 levels from start. Characters get boring or too powerful, the DM loses interest( or goes to jail, true story), narrative slow advancement, someone else wants to run a game, etc etc. In over 26 years of tabletop RPGing, I have never played a game where a character made it over 12 and I am far from alone. We have been playing a campaign of mine once a week for two months and some change and they just hit level 3. So don't worry about the long game unless you are sure the game is actually going to go that long, and play the character for the now and short run. This board I have noticed has this un-explainable fascination with long term planning of characters into the late teens and twenties.

Conversely I had levelless games like the old star wars d6 system game have campaigns that lasted a decade, + on and off games later, with some will remain nameless characters becoming official canon. When characters only gain slight increases over time as opposed to major powers gained every level, the characters stay interesting longer, at least that's what I noticed. There's more RP and thus more interest in making them alive.

That's a fair point.

I'm currently playing "The West Marches" over at rpol.net

Interestingly the game has just reached 11,000 posts!

The guy running it DM's several concurrent teams on the same map with the teams deciding in a common room who ventures with who. The base has NPC stores to replenish and had only just introduced a stagecoach to get to the edges of the current known territory quicker.

People come and go, but the game continues.

I'm quite impressed and I like the spontenaeouty of it.

[Franbo]

FYI there is a Very Rare potion that also removes exhaustion: "Potion of Vitality". The effect of this potion is to remove "... any exhaustion you are suffering..." (As well as other things).

It's a table D item so could start appearing with CR 5-10 hoard treasures by RAW (although of course your GM could decide to be more generous).

I believe that by RAW crafting rules it's unlikely to ever be crafted as (assuming halving of costs for one use items - which is an interpretation rather than clear IMO):

You need a minimum 11th Level to craft
The creation cost is 25k gp
It takes 1,000 days to make by a single character

That said... there are many home brew crafting/alchemy/magic item purchase homebrew rule sets out there that might make this a viable proposition.

[Shaofoo]

If you want something more "official" the DMG has chase rules where you accrue exhaustion during the chase (and you stop chasing when you get to 5 levels since your speed is 0) but all exhaustion from the chase is wiped after a rest. You could adapt something like this.

[MeeposFire]

I decided rather than trying to figure out the balance of changing exhaustion I added the ability make bonus action attacks at 1d4 damage with the fluff of half hilting and other techniques. This way the berserker never feels behind a character using PAM (and gets the benefit of using any weapon to get the bonus action attack) and can boost their damage in return for exhaustion.