tier 1 warmage and warlock for solo adventuring - P.E.A.C.H.

[tsj]

As the title said... I Will attempt to make strong variants of warlock and warmage. Let me know what you think...

Super warlock:
As warlock but always knows All listed invocations.

May still only use invocations up to the lever he knows.

Each time he would gain an invocation, he instead select a spell from a predefined list of spells and use it as an invocation of the appropiate level/stage (list...todo...suggestions needed...)

Eldritch blast damage is now :
Super warlock level times d6...
Ie level 20 super warlock has
20d6 damage (should be great fun with ie hideous blow and others)

Should not be to crazy compared to wiz cheese

Super warmage:
No spellfailure
No advanced learning
Use own AND wizard spell list

Comments, suggestions?

The classes should be versatile and powerfull enough to replace an entire party of 4 adventurers

[JoshuaZ]

As the title said... I Will attempt to make strong variants of warlock and warmage. Let me know what you think...

Super warlock:
As warlock but always knows All listed invocations.

May still only use invocations up to the lever he knows.

Each time he would gain an invocation, he instead select a spell from a predefined list of spells and use it as an invocation of the appropiate level/stage (list...todo...suggestions needed...)

Eldritch blast damage is now :
Super warlock level times d6...
Ie level 20 super warlock has
20d6 damage (should be great fun with ie hideous blow and others)

Should not be to crazy compared to wiz cheese

Super warmage:
No spellfailure
No advanced learning
Use own AND wizard spell list

Comments, suggestions?

The classes should be versatile and powerfull enough to replace an entire party of 4 adventurers

Your Warlock is probably going to be roughly T2 this way, or just have its tier undefined in the standard system.

The Super Warmage is going to be functionally T0. If your goal is to have something replace a party of four adventurers, it will probably by and large do that, although healing will still be tricky.

[Kish]

Your warmage is an almost strictly better wizard (only lacking the extra item creation/metamagic feats and the familiar), correct? And "no spellfailure" means she can wear plate armor with no worries about fizzling spells?

[tsj]

Yes plate armor and No spell failure.

So the super warmage needs to be reduced from tier 0 to tier 1 and
The super warlock needs to reach tier 1. Suggestions? :-)

What if the super warmage suffers the same spellfailure as a regular warmage
and the warmage must have 2 prohibited magic schools that are removed from the super warmages spell list ?

And the super warlock:
Each time a regular warlock would gain a new invocation, he instead gains a versatile invocation, see below...

super warlock as it is atm :

Super warlock:
As warlock but always knows All listed invocations.

May still only use invocations up to the lever he knows.

Each time he would gain an invocation, he instead gains a versatile invocation.

For each versatile invocation a super warlock may
select a spell of an appropiate level from ANY spell list and use it as an invocation of the appropiate level/stage

Keep in mind that each versatile invocation can be of various levels/stages, ie. a super warlock could
have 3 least versatile invocations and 1 lesser versatile invocation. This would allow him to select up to 3 spells that day of up to
the appropiate spell level for least invocations to use at will for the rest of that day, same with the lesser versatile invocation.

He still gets all regular invocations automatically up to the level/stage he knows..
ie. If the highest invocation level he currently has is least, then he knows all least invocations and all lesser invocations and may use them asoften as he wants...

Eldritch blast damage :
Super warlock level times d6...
Ie level 20 super warlock has
20d6 damage (should be great fun with ie hideous blow and others)

how is that for a tier 1 warlock ?

[Grod_The_Giant]

What if the super warmage suffers the same spellfailure as a regular warmage
and the warmage must have 2 prohibited magic schools that are removed from the super warmages spell list ?
So now he's a specialist wizard on speed, instead of a generalist. Forget tier; the sheer volume of spells probably makes it unplayable.


And the super warlock:
Each time a regular warlock would gain a new invocation, he instead gains a versatile invocation, see below...
...
For each versatile invocation a super warlock may
select a spell of an appropiate level from ANY spell list and use it as an invocation of the appropiate level/stage
That... might well do the trick, depending on the spells you pick; there's some damn abusable stuff you can nab that way.

But that all said...

The super warlock needs to reach tier 1. Suggestions? :-)
I don't think this is the way you need to go. You're looking for, I take it, a Warmage and a Warlock who can, together, fill the roles of the whole party? The easiest way to get there is probably gestalt. How about...

Take the Warmage; change its casting stat to Int and use the Eclectic Learning ACF, then gestalt with Factotum. Now you have a massively skilled mage-thief with a backpack full of fireballs and a couple utility spells up their sleeve for the day. Make good use of UMD; a dip in Sand Shaper//Cleric (Magic Domain) wouldn't be bad either.
Take the Warlock and gestalt with the Crusader. Perhaps increase invocations to one known/level and boost skill points. Boom; now you have a near-unstoppable fighter with a nice stash of at-will magic for buffs and utility.

[tsj]

So now he's a specialist wizard on speed, instead of a generalist. Forget tier; the sheer volume of spells probably makes it unplayable.


That... might well do the trick, depending on the spells you pick; there's some damn abusable stuff you can nab that way.

But that all said...

I don't think this is the way you need to go. You're looking for, I take it, a Warmage and a Warlock who can, together, fill the roles of the whole party? The easiest way to get there is probably gestalt. How about...

Take the Warmage; change its casting stat to Int and use the Eclectic Learning ACF, then gestalt with Factotum. Now you have a massively skilled mage-thief with a backpack full of fireballs and a couple utility spells up their sleeve for the day. Make good use of UMD; a dip in Sand Shaper//Cleric (Magic Domain) wouldn't be bad either.
Take the Warlock and gestalt with the Crusader. Perhaps increase invocations to one known/level and boost skill points. Boom; now you have a near-unstoppable fighter with a nice stash of at-will magic for buffs and utility.


Interessant gestalt combinations that I Will try out.

I want to create a warlock like tier 1 Class that can be a one man party and I want to create a warmage like tier 1 Class that can also funktion as a one man party.

It should be possible to select the super warlock or the super warmage and use just that one charecter as a whole adventuring party.

I am toying with the idea that the versatile invocations can be reselected each morning for added versatility

For super warmage:

Reinstate adv learning

Each morning the super warmage can temporary add a wizard scholl to his spell list for that day

A number of times Per Day equal to casterlevel the super warmage May ignore spellfailure completely

[nonsi]

I want to create a warlock like tier 1 Class that can be a one man party and I want to create a warmage like tier 1 Class that can also funktion as a one man party.


Problem: who'se gonna back up one superclass when s/he drops... and they will drop eventually, for so many reasons.

[Morphic tide]

Well, Warlock is one of the better choices for building up into a t1 class. Their main damage dealer is at-will, after all.

Personally, I'd have the Super-Warlock be a merger of Duskblade or Arcane Archer and Warlock, without the spell restrictions of normal Duskblade and Arcane Archer. Switch to either full Int synergy for weight of skill points or full Cha synergy for proper diplomancy.

Ultimately, you may want Fighter feat access for proper weapon focusing. Some healing is also needed badly, perhaps a life leach type Invocation to boost Eldritch Blast damage while healing? However, the most important thing about the tier system is that "do everything well" only gets you to tier 3. Apparently you have to break the game quite hard to get to t2, and be able to shatter any encounter that faces you at t1. Even though the system is supposed to be about versatility of problems solved, not strength... Healing is a problem to solve, yet most classes above t3 lack it outside of the hyper-versatile spells like Summon Monster and the various spells that let you use other spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Problem: who'se gonna back up one superclass when s/he drops... and they will drop eventually, for so many reasons.
This right here.

Your challenge for a one-man-party really isn't options so much as it action economy. Any class of around T3 or above-- heck, even some T4 classes-- has the tools it needs to engage the world in a meaningful way. In fact, it's probably better to not be in that boat-- that way you have distinct strengths and weaknesses and have to approach things in a unique way.

What you need, then, are more general solo rules: say, you get around around double max hit points, an extra standard action at initiative-10, extra attacks of opportunity and can move your speed as an immediate action. That sort of helps you pretend to be an extra character, while still leaving you very open to everything. A few items should leave them fine for hit points, or some 4e-style Healing Surges.

Apply those rules to any reasonably competent character and you should do okay. Gestalt rules are a good idea here, as they're fairly well understood and offer a good way to make strong characters without homebrewing superclasses.

With that said, all you need now are reasonably competent versions of the Warlock and Warmage. Give both a small boost to skill lists/skill points and an (Improved?) Familiar; give the Warmage one Sorcerer/Wizard spell of their choice, up to one level lower than the highest they can cast, at every odd-numbered level after first; give the Warlock one invocation known/level and a 1d6/level+Cha blast. That's really all they need; both are pretty close to T3.

[tsj]

Thanks for All the comments and suggestions :)

I am now ready to try out some soloing :)

[nonsi]

Thanks for All the comments and suggestions :)

I am now ready to try out some soloing :)

The main problem with soloing is that the first successful SOS vs. the character means GAME OVER.
If SOS against the character is somehow not an option, then Grod's solution is the way to go, but then the suspense of the adventure is lost and it's all a matter of the opponents vs. the character's superior stats and action economy abuse, which is kind'a a boring hack'n'slash exchange.

[tsj]

The main problem with soloing is that the first successful SOS vs. the character means GAME OVER.
If SOS against the character is somehow not an option, then Grod's solution is the way to go, but then the suspense of the adventure is lost and it's all a matter of the opponents vs. the character's superior stats and action economy abuse, which is kind'a a boring hack'n'slash exchange.

True. But it should work out good with one GM and one player this way I think.

[Morphic tide]

I'll jump back in with some more suggestions on making it all work:

1. Most important thing needed is action economy screwing, to handle the need for multiple tasks per round. Either a lot of multi-hit stuff and stuff that lets you do multiple things per action or stuff that gives you a bunch of actions. Again, Arcane Archer and Duskblade have most of it covered with doing an attack while casting a spell. They are the better way to work it, because it makes more sense and has more ability to function in a non-solo game. Alternatively, rider effect spam, which works wonderfully for Warlocks.

2. Rather low priority, but designing a class made to solo encounters with a CR equal to their level gets boring. Instead of that, focus on making the classes be able to handle everything to a non-useless degree for encounters of a CR that is 1/5 their level, with 1/4 their level CR being a non-trivial task until the point T1 takes off in force. Full Int or Cha synergy goes a long way here, by tying your combat power to your non-combat skills.

More detailed explanation for a "solo Warlock":

Have Invocations that let you do all needed things by altering the effect of Eldritch Blast. Lowered damage for healing, ability to have debuffs with several save options, copy the most needed spells and so on. Take the essence of the save-or-lose Wizard and make it Invocations that turn Eldritch Blast into a SoS/SoL carrier.

Have AoE options for Eldritch Blast be separate from Invocations. Cone, line, sphere and possibly circle AoE options. Maybe having a multi-target option and the ability to mix the options, with clear rules for how it works. Here's another place to possibly tax raw damage per-hit for the ability to deal with a large number of threats.

Get Soulmelds involved. Here, you can work past some of the biggest limits of the action economy and some of the bigger DM crippling options, namely surprise attacks and loot starving. Soulmelds can be built to cover the usual buff time needs. They can also allow you to remove the need for magic items. Sure, the items work better thanks to fewer limits, but you can function without them.


I sadly don't know enough about Warmage to give an opinion on it. Can someone describe it to me?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I sadly don't know enough about Warmage to give an opinion on it. Can someone describe it to me?
It's a fixed-list caster in the vein of the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer-- a limited class list, but they know all their spells and can cast them all spontaneously. The problem is that the list is about 80% direct damage and 15% battlefield control; class features grant Sudden Metamagic feats (which are 1/day crap) and minor damage boosts.

[Morphic tide]

It's a fixed-list caster in the vein of the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer-- a limited class list, but they know all their spells and can cast them all spontaneously. The problem is that the list is about 80% direct damage and 15% battlefield control; class features grant Sudden Metamagic feats (which are 1/day crap) and minor damage boosts.

Hmm... I'm thinking making it into a Maneuver/Caster gish, perhaps 1/2 or 2/3 progression on both sides (oh god, the table columns. There's, like, 12 of them there!), with a focus on battlefield support (SoL/SoS, buffs and heals) for the casting and having the personal offense/defense come from Maneuvers is a place to start. Another bit might be having half progression on the quantity of slots (as in taking the number of slots of each level on a full caster/initiator and halving each number of spell slots. Same for Maneuvers), with the first slot each spell/maneuver level being on time for a full caster/initiator, while having spell and Maneuver slots being interchangeable in use. If you have the split, then Duskblade/Arcane Archer type rider effects don't work quite as well because you end up lacking spells that work well as rider effects.

The Sudden Metamagic sounds like an interesting place to start for using Maneuvers simultaneously with spells, aside from Duskblade type stuff for using Maneuvers simultaneously with spells. Like, spending Maneuver slots for metamagic based on the Maneuver slot used. Although this runs into the issue of being able to push the effective spell level of something well into the double digits, the spells would largely be stuff that doesn't get much from metamagic. Alternatively/additionally, have metamagic be able to apply to Maneuvers, increasing the Maneuver slot by the spell level adjustment. Maybe tie a bunch of this into an exclusive "school" of Maneuvers built around being explicitly magical, maybe using the (Su) tag for all of it with a few spell-likes, and extra anime, with flash steps, crazy magic sword strikes and such made to fill in blaster caster functions.

As for something to help stop DM abuse from ruining the character, I'd go with giving them limited Kensai-like item replacement. Spend spell or Maneuver slots for temporary magic item effects on weapons and armor, allowing for partial magic item replacement at the cost of buff time and combat endurance. Eats into endurance of the class, but the feature would exist basically for the sole purpose of denying the DM's ability to entirely cripple the character with a game state of low magic item access, like all Martials suffer from. Not a good fix, but a workable one overall. And the use of Maneuvers for personal combat power makes it work wonders in a campaign run by an AMF spamming DM, as they're still useable inside an AMF. Not all that good inside one compared to outside, but not entirely dead weight. Better than a Fighter, at least...

Seriously, biggest thing to deal with as a magic item/buff reliant character is how to stop the DM from screwing you over with anti-magic. Sure, they can always Rule Zero (I.E. Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies) you, but having more need for them to Rule Zero to shut down your entire character is something important to consider. Lowering reliance on stuff that can be no-sold by basic, in-universe precautions against enemies is a good thing to have. Especially in Psionics is Different campaigns, where the rest of the party can be mildly inconvenienced by AMFs and AMF spam makes perfect in-universe sense. Still a **** move, but a well justified one. One that optimizers who go full Practical Optimization have to look out for. One that a solo build needs a workaround for, lest they be doomed by one in-universe obstacle with good reason to be there.

[tsj]

almost sounds like there would be a need for some kind of guide or solo chassis that can pick various stuff from various classes and still manage to work very well in a solo setting with one player and one dm

in order to be able to build solo charecters of every flavor with the ability to survive solo adventures

[Morphic tide]

almost sounds like there would be a need for some kind of guide or solo chassis that can pick various stuff from various classes and still manage to work very well in a solo setting with one player and one dm

in order to be able to build solo charecters of every flavor with the ability to survive solo adventures

Triscossiate is kinda close. Dabblemaster has a few more things that help. Above all else, though, you need the basic requirements of a solo character as an irremovable set of features to work properly. Basic self healing and SoS/SoL management are a must.

[tsj]

@morphic tide: trisociate rocks and you might be correct that it can serve as a solid chassis for soloing :)