3.5e I don't know how to play a Crusader.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello.

I am starting a new game with my group and I want to play a Thayan Knight (I was talking to one of my friends and he will be my Red Wizard).

I want to be a super tank so you guy told me that I can play a Crusader as a base class.

I am new to d&d and don't know how the Stances and Maneuvers work.

I will be LE(The Dark Knight) and will start at level 4.

I want to use heavy armor, tower shield and a longsword item familiar(I want to make it intelligent and give it a purpose(to defend my Red Wizard)).

I will take 2 flows in order to get 2 feats.


I will be very happy if you guys could help me build my character.

[Karl Aegis]

You've got a tower shield so your wizard can replace you with judicious use of Shrink Item next level. Good luck.

[digiman619]

I'll leave the builds to the more skilled, but I'd be happy to explain stances and maneuvers.

The fastest way to explain maneuvers is to think like it's a fighting game. Maneuvers are your specials; they have names, and do more damage/have more utility that just punches and kicks. Rather than just spamming them, though, they have a cool-down. Once you use one it's "expended" you can't use it again until it's refreshed, and each class refreshes differently. As a Crusader, your granted maneuvers have some randomness in which ones you get, but it's easy to figure out once you get the hang of it.

Ever see a kung-fu movie where one of the characters changes how they fight? They hold themselves differently and their attacks come at different angles and it changes the match-up. Or to take it back to fighting games, they have different modes like Gen from Street Fighter or Lee from Tekken. This is what stances basically are; they are a buff that you can only have one of active at any time and each represent a different combat style. If one isn't working (and you have at least two, obviously), you can switch styles as a swift action, so you can swap pretty much for free once per turn.

Hope that helps explain.

[rrwoods]

Crusader maneuvers in particular are a little wonky. I'll go into detail in a second, but let's get the easy part out of the way first:

Stances provide continuous benefits. Unless you specifically don't want to be in a stance, you're always in a stance (as long as you're conscious). Once you have more than one stance available to you, switching stances is a swift action.

Crusader maneuvers can be in one of any number of states:
* If a maneuver isn't readied, it will never be available to you for the current encounter.
* If a maneuver is readied (but not granted), it will eventually be granted to you on a future turn.
* If a maneuver is granted, it is available for you to use right now.
* If a maneuver is expended, you've used it up and you'll need to wait for your maneuvers to refresh for it to be unexpended.
I highly recommend making maneuver cards to keep track -- especially with the random nature of the crusader's maneuver mechanics. The four states above can be represented by piles, from left to right.

An example to help clear things up: A 4th-level crusader (with no feats modifying any of their maneuver numbers). Looking at the table, we know 6 maneuvers, will have 5 of them readied, and are granted 2 at the start of each encounter. Right off the bat, since we ready 5 of our 6, we must set one aside in the not-readied pile. The other 5 go into our readied pile.

At the start of the encounter, we shuffle the 5 readied maneuvers and put them face down. Then we flip 2 over (we get granted 2) into the granted pile. These maneuvers are available to use. When we use a maneuver, we move it to the expended pile.

At the end of each turn, we flip another maneuver over into the granted pile. If there aren't any left, we refresh: take all the cards in the expended AND granted piles and shuffle them, put them face down into the readied pile, and flip 2 over again (just like the beginning of the encounter).

EDIT: I also notice you're starting at level 4 (updated the example to make things a little easier). Assuming no multiclassing, you will know 4 1st-level maneuvers, plus 2 maneuvers up to 2nd-level. (The reason for this is, at 1st level, you get 5 1st level maneuvers; at level 3 you pick up a maneuver up to 2nd level, and at 4th you get to trade one away for a new one, which can be up to 2nd level).

[Red Fel]

Hello.

Hello!


I am starting a new game with my group and I want to play a Thayan Knight (I was talking to one of my friends and he will be my Red Wizard).

Ignoring for a moment that Thayan Knight is a bad class, sure.


I want to be a super tank so you guy told me that I can play a Crusader as a base class.

Yeah, "tanking" as a mechanic doesn't work well in D&D, but Crusader is basically the closest you can get to it. Good call.


I am new to d&d and don't know how the Stances and Maneuvers work.

Okay. Here's how Stances and Maneuvers work. First, Stances. Consult the Crusader section of your Tome of Battle. It lists how many Stances you have known at each level. Think of a Stance as a buff or power-up that lasts until you switch it out for another one. The Stances on which you want to focus are Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. Thicket of Blades is what you use to stand between your Red Wizard and your enemies - anyone trying to get past you provokes attacks of opportunity. Iron Guard's Glare is what you use when your enemies have gotten past you - anyone attempting to attack your Red Wizard takes a penalty.

Now, Maneuvers. A Crusader has a list of Known maneuvers - these are the maneuvers from which you can choose - and a list of Readied maneuvers. You select the maneuvers you have Readied from your list of maneuvers Known, and can switch them out by taking five minutes to pray. You start each combat with two of your Readied maneuvers, randomly selected, available to you; each round, one more becomes available. The easiest way to simulate this is with maneuver cards, which can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). Simply print them out, then pick out all of your maneuvers Known. From those, select your maneuvers Readied, and put them into a pile. Shuffle and draw two - those are your maneuvers available to use. Each turn, draw one. When you use a maneuver, put it into the discard pile. Once you've finished drawing, shuffle them all back into the deck, draw two, and start over. Easy!

Keep in mind that your maneuvers will generally take the form of either a Strike or a Boost. A Strike is usually a standard action you use in place of your attack. A Boost is usually a swift action you use to augment an attack.


I will be LE(The Dark Knight) and will start at level 4.

I want to use heavy armor, tower shield and a longsword item familiar(I want to make it intelligent and give it a purpose(to defend my Red Wizard)).

Tower Shields are generally disfavored on these boards. In fact, shields generally are disfavored; you're usually better off with a two-handed sword. It's fine if you want to use one, but keep in mind that it's not the best idea.

[rrwoods]

I notice from your other thread that there's a question about how Adaptive Style works. The answer is "ask your DM".

The text of the feat says that you can "change your readied maneuvers" as a full round action. The common interpretation is that changing readied maneuvers also refreshes them all. But the agreement about that interpretation isn't unanimous by any means, so you'll want to check with your DM to see what he thinks about it.

[Doc_Maynot]

Actually, Adaptive Style specifically says you are have new granted maneuvers. So Crusader is the one class that the feat is cut and dry on.

[Ludic]

I highly recommend making maneuver cards to keep track -- especially with the random nature of the crusader's maneuver mechanics. The four states above can be represented by piles, from left to right.


WoTC Has it covered right here.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

Web Enhancement for Tome of Battle. I advise getting them individually verses the all version. That way you have a file for each style verses one file for everything. And yes, the card include stances.

[The Glyphstone]

For a Crusader, maneuver cards are so helpful as to be effectively a mandatory out-of-game accessory. You just make a small deck of your readied maneuvers, then deal yourself out the appropriate number. When you've run out, shuffle the deck and redraw.

[Eldariel]

Tower Shields are generally disfavored on these boards. In fact, shields generally are disfavored; you're usually better off with a two-handed sword. It's fine if you want to use one, but keep in mind that it's not the best idea.

Specifically for a defender Crusader, thanks to the existence of the Shield Block-maneuver, they gain some decent utility though.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You've got a tower shield so your wizard can replace you with judicious use of Shrink Item next level. Good luck.
?????

I'll leave the builds to the more skilled, but I'd be happy to explain stances and maneuvers.

The fastest way to explain maneuvers is to think like it's a fighting game. Maneuvers are your specials; they have names, and do more damage/have more utility that just punches and kicks. Rather than just spamming them, though, they have a cool-down. Once you use one it's "expended" you can't use it again until it's refreshed, and each class refreshes differently. As a Crusader, your granted maneuvers have some randomness in which ones you get, but it's easy to figure out once you get the hang of it.

Ever see a kung-fu movie where one of the characters changes how they fight? They hold themselves differently and their attacks come at different angles and it changes the match-up. Or to take it back to fighting games, they have different modes like Gen from Street Fighter or Lee from Tekken. This is what stances basically are; they are a buff that you can only have one of active at any time and each represent a different combat style. If one isn't working (and you have at least two, obviously), you can switch styles as a swift action, so you can swap pretty much for free once per turn.

Hope that helps explain.
tnx :)

Hello!



Ignoring for a moment that Thayan Knight is a bad class, sure.



Yeah, "tanking" as a mechanic doesn't work well in D&D, but Crusader is basically the closest you can get to it. Good call.



Okay. Here's how Stances and Maneuvers work. First, Stances. Consult the Crusader section of your Tome of Battle. It lists how many Stances you have known at each level. Think of a Stance as a buff or power-up that lasts until you switch it out for another one. The Stances on which you want to focus are Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. Thicket of Blades is what you use to stand between your Red Wizard and your enemies - anyone trying to get past you provokes attacks of opportunity. Iron Guard's Glare is what you use when your enemies have gotten past you - anyone attempting to attack your Red Wizard takes a penalty.

Now, Maneuvers. A Crusader has a list of Known maneuvers - these are the maneuvers from which you can choose - and a list of Readied maneuvers. You select the maneuvers you have Readied from your list of maneuvers Known, and can switch them out by taking five minutes to pray. You start each combat with two of your Readied maneuvers, randomly selected, available to you; each round, one more becomes available. The easiest way to simulate this is with maneuver cards, which can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). Simply print them out, then pick out all of your maneuvers Known. From those, select your maneuvers Readied, and put them into a pile. Shuffle and draw two - those are your maneuvers available to use. Each turn, draw one. When you use a maneuver, put it into the discard pile. Once you've finished drawing, shuffle them all back into the deck, draw two, and start over. Easy!

Keep in mind that your maneuvers will generally take the form of either a Strike or a Boost. A Strike is usually a standard action you use in place of your attack. A Boost is usually a swift action you use to augment an attack.



Tower Shields are generally disfavored on these boards. In fact, shields generally are disfavored; you're usually better off with a two-handed sword. It's fine if you want to use one, but keep in mind that it's not the best idea.
I don't care about the fact that this is a bad class, I can make it cool :)

can you please explain why I will be better without a shield?

and I love you alignments guide:)

I notice from your other thread that there's a question about how Adaptive Style works. The answer is "ask your DM".

The text of the feat says that you can "change your readied maneuvers" as a full round action. The common interpretation is that changing readied maneuvers also refreshes them all. But the agreement about that interpretation isn't unanimous by any means, so you'll want to check with your DM to see what he thinks about it.
I am waiting for an answer from my DM :)

Actually, Adaptive Style specifically says you are have new granted maneuvers. So Crusader is the one class that the feat is cut and dry on.


WoTC Has it covered right here.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

Web Enhancement for Tome of Battle. I advise getting them individually verses the all version. That way you have a file for each style verses one file for everything. And yes, the card include stances.
thank you :)

For a Crusader, maneuver cards are so helpful as to be effectively a mandatory out-of-game accessory. You just make a small deck of your readied maneuvers, then deal yourself out the appropriate number. When you've run out, shuffle the deck and redraw.
I hope he will agree, we are using roll20 because we can't meet (different time zones), I can ask for help with the macros.

Specifically for a defender Crusader, thanks to the existence of the Shield Block-maneuver, they gain some decent utility though.

nice, thank you :)

[Troacctid]

Roll20 has a function to create decks of cards, which works great for Crusader maneuvers, but it takes some work to set up.

Don't take Adaptive Style, it's only good on Swordsages. Better feats would be Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver, Stone Power, and/or Stand Still.

[Red Fel]

can you please explain why I will be better without a shield?

Sure! It's a simple question. Fill in the blank: "The best defense is _______________."

I'll even answer it for you - "a good offense." A shield, at its best, gives you an extra layer of protection. But against certain enemies or abilities, and at certain levels, that's not going to be enough. AC diminishes in utility as you get higher level. Moreover, AC only really benefits you, unless you take certain feats or maneuvers that allow you to share it. By contrast, killing your enemies benefits everyone in your party, particularly your Red Wizard boss. And while a tower shield can block the line of effect of spells, a turn spent hiding behind it is a turn spent not contributing to the fight.

As a general rule, the best way to defend your Red Wizard is to disable those who would hurt him. And as a Crusader/ Thayan Knight, your best method of disabling an opponent is by dealing lots and lots of HP damage to them. And the best way to deal lots of damage is with a two-handed weapon, like a greatsword.

More skilled mathematicians than I have done the numbers, and determined that, between a one-handed weapon, two dual-wielded weapons, and a two-handed weapon, the most damage will come from the two-handed weapon. So, from a tactical standpoint, your best option is generally going to be to go out and get a big, mean, murdering weapon, and to apply it liberally to your enemies until quite dead.

Which does not require a shield.

That said, if you really want to use a shield, I suggest getting one with the Animated special property. An Animated shield hovers around you, providing its benefits while leaving your hands free to wield your big, mean, two-handed weapon.


and I love you alignments guide:)

You have good taste. LE really is the best alignment, isn't it?

[digiman619]

can you please explain why I will be better without a shield?
Also because none of your maneuvers help you use it. Though if your DM lets you back-port a discipline from Path of War (Pathfinder's revamp of the concept), the Iron Tortoise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/iron-tortoise-maneuvers) discipline might prove interesting.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Sure! It's a simple question. Fill in the blank: "The best defense is _______________."

I'll even answer it for you - "a good offense." A shield, at its best, gives you an extra layer of protection. But against certain enemies or abilities, and at certain levels, that's not going to be enough. AC diminishes in utility as you get higher level. Moreover, AC only really benefits you, unless you take certain feats or maneuvers that allow you to share it. By contrast, killing your enemies benefits everyone in your party, particularly your Red Wizard boss. And while a tower shield can block the line of effect of spells, a turn spent hiding behind it is a turn spent not contributing to the fight.

As a general rule, the best way to defend your Red Wizard is to disable those who would hurt him. And as a Crusader/ Thayan Knight, your best method of disabling an opponent is by dealing lots and lots of HP damage to them. And the best way to deal lots of damage is with a two-handed weapon, like a greatsword.

More skilled mathematicians than I have done the numbers, and determined that, between a one-handed weapon, two dual-wielded weapons, and a two-handed weapon, the most damage will come from the two-handed weapon. So, from a tactical standpoint, your best option is generally going to be to go out and get a big, mean, murdering weapon, and to apply it liberally to your enemies until quite dead.

Which does not require a shield.

That said, if you really want to use a shield, I suggest getting one with the Animated special property. An Animated shield hovers around you, providing its benefits while leaving your hands free to wield your big, mean, two-handed weapon.



You have good taste. LE really is the best alignment, isn't it?

But I do need Weapon Focus (longsword) if I want to be Thayan Knight.
Unless you know how to use two-handed weapon without making this feat a wast I have a little problem.

Thank you Master Red Fel, as I wrote I am The Dark Knight and LE will make me your best servant.

Oops:
I am sorry Master, I just now notice that I can use a one-hand weapon as two-handed one.

[The Glyphstone]

Just wield your longsword in two hands, then. While you will have a lower damage die (1d8=4.5 average compared to 2d6=7 average), you'll get the same bonus damage from your maneuvers and your 1.5x Strength bonus as the greatsword- an average deficit of 2.5 damage isn't going to hurt you significantly.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Just wield your longsword in two hands, then. While you will have a lower damage die (1d8=4.5 average compared to 2d6=7 average), you'll get the same bonus damage from your maneuvers and your 1.5x Strength bonus as the greatsword- an average deficit of 2.5 damage isn't going to hurt you significantly.

Well, I think that I just provided the information need so you will know that I am a noob :)


BTW:
what are the core feats for a melee guy?

I know what to take if I want to make a good rouge but have no idea about feats for melee guys.

[rrwoods]

Well, I think that I just provided the information need so you will know that I am a noob :)


BTW:
what are the core feats for a melee guy?

I know what to take if I want to make a good rouge but have no idea about melee guy.
Troacctid covered a bunch of the early feats you'll want in his last post, especially as a crusader in the defender role.

I'll throw in a mention of Power Attack. As a full BAB character you'll have plenty of accuracy to convert to damage. If your party has a dedicated damage dealer, you want to hold off or not take this at all, but if you're the only melee character in the party you want this at level 3 or earlier. With flaws you won't be nearly as feat-starved as normal, so if in doubt just pick it up.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Troacctid covered a bunch of the early feats you'll want in his last post, especially as a crusader in the defender role.

I'll throw in a mention of Power Attack. As a full BAB character you'll have plenty of accuracy to convert to damage. If your party has a dedicated damage dealer, you want to hold off or not take this at all, but if you're the only melee character in the party you want this at level 3 or earlier. With flaws you won't be nearly as feat-starved as normal, so if in doubt just pick it up.
Thank you I miss that post

Roll20 has a function to create decks of cards, which works great for Crusader maneuvers, but it takes some work to set up.

Don't take Adaptive Style, it's only good on Swordsages. Better feats would be Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver, Stone Power, and/or Stand Still.
Sorry, I miss your post :(

Do you know what should I take later?
I am playing melee for the first time and I am trying to take damage this game(this is very weird).

[Red Fel]

For a Crusader as Defender, I'd recommend Combat Reflexes as well, then either Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike, depending on how you go about it. They're both higher-level options, with RG requiring BAB +12 and KS requiring the Dodge feat (or any suitable replacement), but basically, enemies get a bonus to hit you, and in exchange they provoke AoOs for doing so. Couple that with something that works on hit, like the Knock Down feat (requires Improved Trip) - that feat allows you to make a Trip attempt any time you deal 10 or more damage, even on an AoO.

So, your turn with this configuration would work like so. You assume Thicket of Blades stance. Anybody coming through your space provokes an AoO, and if you deal more than 10 damage, you can knock them prone with Knock Down. You now have a +4 to melee attacks against them. Standing up is a move action that provokes another AoO, with another Trip attempt. Repeat.

Alternatively, you hit your enemy with the Defensive Rebuke maneuver, and activate RG or KS. If he attacks an ally, he provokes an AoO thanks to Defensive Rebuke, and a Trip; if he attacks you, he provokes an AoO thanks to RG or KS, and a Trip. In either event, he winds up on the ground.

After that, it's pretty much however you want to go. For example, depending on how Evil you want to be, you could take Willing Deformity (tall), which grants you +5 reach at the cost of -1 AC and -2 to Hide. Extra reach with your weapon is definitely a good thing. You might even consider taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain.

But yes. Power Attack is pretty much the melee-damage-guy's bread-and-butter feat. It's a staple.

[The Glyphstone]

Remember, a 'tank's goal is not simply to take damage. Your goal is to prevent damage to other people, which is not necessarily the same thing.

The first priority here is to get enemies to attack you in the first place. The easiest way to do this is deal lots of damage yourself, thus being a threat, while making it harder for them to go bother other people.

The second priority is then to survive the attacks you are deliberately drawing to yourself as much as possible. This can be by giving enemies penalties on Attacks/boosting your AC, giving yourself temporary HP via Stone Power and Crusader's Pool, healing yourself with Divine Spirit strikes, and similar options.

[Nifft]

But I do need Weapon Focus (longsword) if I want to be Thayan Knight.


Suggestion: just play a Crusader for a while, and see how you like it.

Once you know how the game works, you can think about doing a prestige class.

Crusader is awesome. Playing a Crusader feels awesome. You can do everything that the Thayan Knight claims to be able to do, and be more awesome while doing it.

Once you know how to be awesome as a Crusader, then take a look at Thayan Knight, and decide for yourself if it will actually bring value to the table.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

For a Crusader as Defender, I'd recommend Combat Reflexes as well, then either Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike, depending on how you go about it. They're both higher-level options, with RG requiring BAB +12 and KS requiring the Dodge feat (or any suitable replacement), but basically, enemies get a bonus to hit you, and in exchange they provoke AoOs for doing so. Couple that with something that works on hit, like the Knock Down feat (requires Improved Trip) - that feat allows you to make a Trip attempt any time you deal 10 or more damage, even on an AoO.

So, your turn with this configuration would work like so. You assume Thicket of Blades stance. Anybody coming through your space provokes an AoO, and if you deal more than 10 damage, you can knock them prone with Knock Down. You now have a +4 to melee attacks against them. Standing up is a move action that provokes another AoO, with another Trip attempt. Repeat.

Alternatively, you hit your enemy with the Defensive Rebuke maneuver, and activate RG or KS. If he attacks an ally, he provokes an AoO thanks to Defensive Rebuke, and a Trip; if he attacks you, he provokes an AoO thanks to RG or KS, and a Trip. In either event, he winds up on the ground.

After that, it's pretty much however you want to go. For example, depending on how Evil you want to be, you could take Willing Deformity (tall), which grants you +5 reach at the cost of -1 AC and -2 to Hide. Extra reach with your weapon is definitely a good thing. You might even consider taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain.

But yes. Power Attack is pretty much the melee-damage-guy's bread-and-butter feat. It's a staple.
I do want to get an item familiar(my sword), I think I will stay with her.
I will be as Evil as I can in order to protect my Red Wizard.

Remember, a 'tank's goal is not simply to take damage. Your goal is to prevent damage to other people, which is not necessarily the same thing.

The first priority here is to get enemies to attack you in the first place. The easiest way to do this is deal lots of damage yourself, thus being a threat, while making it harder for them to go bother other people.

The second priority is then to survive the attacks you are deliberately drawing to yourself as much as possible. This can be by giving enemies penalties on Attacks/boosting your AC, giving yourself temporary HP via Stone Power and Crusader's Pool, healing yourself with Divine Spirit strikes, and similar options.
Thank you, but as a veteran League of Legends player I know the tank goal.

I was thinking about making myself look like the biggest danger with some
Intimidate checks. If I will look as a big dangerous guy they will try to take me down first and as fast as they can.
This strategy work very well in League of Legends and should work well here.
I can always ask my friend that will play the Red Wizard to make me look like the only one my enemies need to take down. And be taking the party out of the enemies range(I will know what to do when my friends will know what they want to play).

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, Intimidate is one way to do that. Another way your RW buddy can help is by buffing you - even something as simple as Enlarge Person gives you a massively increased threat radius, and the more area you threaten the easier it is for you to intercept enemies whether they want to attack you or not.

If you've played LoL, then the concept of an effective tank should actually be easier to understand than for some people. Most newbies to 3.5 think a tank just straps on full plate, a tower shield, and focuses on making themselves as invincible as possible, without realizing that they need some way to actually make attacking themselves compelling or have the (intelligent) opponents just ignore them and hit the squishies. Crusaders are very good at that.

[Troacctid]

Intimidate requires actions, so it takes the place of attacking, generally. One exception is the Duel of Wills option, which you can find in Tome of Battle (or reprinted in the Rules Compendium).

Enlarge Person is definitely worthwhile, and you might even look into getting it made permanent later via Permanency. Also, if you can get Steadfast Boots from the Magic Item Compendium (probably not to start but maybe later), those are really great.

[gorfnab]

There are some Crusader handbooks that may help you with building your character.
Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2030)
The Crusader Handbook: Tips for Playing the Ultimate Tank (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645)
Spirit of Steel: The Crusader Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?181655-Spirit-of-Steel-The-Crusader-s-Handbook-WIP)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Yeah, Intimidate is one way to do that. Another way your RW buddy can help is by buffing you - even something as simple as Enlarge Person gives you a massively increased threat radius, and the more area you threaten the easier it is for you to intercept enemies whether they want to attack you or not.

If you've played LoL, then the concept of an effective tank should actually be easier to understand than for some people. Most newbies to 3.5 think a tank just straps on full plate, a tower shield, and focuses on making themselves as invincible as possible, without realizing that they need some way to actually make attacking themselves compelling or have the (intelligent) opponents just ignore them and hit the squishies. Crusaders are very good at that.


Intimidate requires actions, so it takes the place of attacking, generally. One exception is the Duel of Wills option, which you can find in Tome of Battle (or reprinted in the Rules Compendium).

Enlarge Person is definitely worthwhile, and you might even look into getting it made permanent later via Permanency. Also, if you can get Steadfast Boots from the Magic Item Compendium (probably not to start but maybe later), those are really great.


There are some Crusader handbooks that may help you with building your character.
Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2030)
The Crusader Handbook: Tips for Playing the Ultimate Tank (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645)
Spirit of Steel: The Crusader Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?181655-Spirit-of-Steel-The-Crusader-s-Handbook-WIP)

Thank you guys(and girls) :)

I think I have all the information I need for now(I will still be very happy if you will want to continue to give me information) :)

[Rebel7284]

How about using Intimidating Rage to be able to actually put your intimidate to good use by being able to intimidate someone as an immediate action? You need a level of Barbarian for that, and probably Extra Rage feat, but being able to interrupt spellcasters in the middle of their actions by making them sh*t their pants is useful defensively. :)

[Nifft]

Thank you guys(and girls) :)

I think I have all the information I need for now(I will still be very happy if you will want to continue to give me information) :)

I'd like to mention that, as a Crusader, you have access to two Devoted Spirit maneuvers which make good use of a shield: Shield Block and Shield Counter.

So you can be awesome within your chosen style.

[Troacctid]

How about using Intimidating Rage to be able to actually put your intimidate to good use by being able to intimidate someone as an immediate action? You need a level of Barbarian for that, and probably Extra Rage feat, but being able to interrupt spellcasters in the middle of their actions by making them sh*t their pants is useful defensively. :)
You can do it without a Barbarian level by taking the Broodguard template for +0 LA.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can do it without a Barbarian level by taking the Broodguard template for +0 LA.Or be an anthropomorphic badger, or take the orc racial paragon levels, or be a werebadger...

[Rebel7284]

You can do it without a Barbarian level by taking the Broodguard template for +0 LA.

What's the source for the template?


Or be an anthropomorphic badger, or take the orc racial paragon levels, or be a werebadger...

Must be human is a prerequisite.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Must be human is a prerequisite.Human Blood and Human Heritage are your friends, and half-orc should qualify already, on account of being half-human, too.

And I wouldn't suggest it (the template has way too many negatives to take in this instance), but you can be human and werebadger at the same time.

[Troacctid]

What's the source for the template?
Savage Species, page 161.

[Particle_Man]

btw, if you go Crusader/Thayan Knight, the Thayan Knight levels count for half their value as far as getting further crusader stances and maneuvers goes (which can be done through the Martial Stance and Martial Study feats). Might be worth considering. There is a night 6th level Lawful martial stance that lets you treat a d20 roll as 11, once per round.

[Ludic]

Human Blood and Human Heritage are your friends, and half-orc should qualify already, on account of being half-human, too.

And I wouldn't suggest it (the template has way too many negatives to take in this instance), but you can be human and werebadger at the same time.

That still won't work. He's playing a character from Thay. That is working for a Red Wizard. Thay is to Faerun as Germany was to WW2. Super xenophobic.

If he isn't human, he's fodder. Non-Humans aren't even protected under Thay's laws. Not even as a slave. You can literally kill a halfling in the middle of a crowded city, and as long as you're human, no one would bat an eye. That's just reality in that country. You're better protected by the laws of Menzoberranzan as a non-Drow than you are as a non-human in Thay.

A Red Wizard wouldn't even buff him if he were enslaved and being forced to be a bodyguard. This is one of the few times, Human is a must. Templates that don't change type are good. But the end point is he must be a Human base to be considered remotely valuable to a Red Wizard.

[Eisfalken]

I know everyone hates shields, but you can actually do a decent shield-bashing build. It's basically TWF, except A) you don't need ridiculous levels of Dex to get there, and B) you're doing it more to keep a better shield bonus to AC than Two Weapon Defense (which is a horrible feat) will ever actually give you.

The gist is Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization (PH2), and Active Shield Fighter (PH2). This is like having a bunch of TWF feats only better because you can use any weapon with any shield (TWF requires light weapon trickery), you keep your shield bonus to AC when bashing (which basically is better than TWD because you get your whole shield bonus always, not just when fighting defensively or whatever), and a smidgen more shield bonus (it's not great, but you at least get "something" climbing to Active Shield Fighter).

That's basically it. The rest of the trick is, get a variable shield (MIC) soon as you can afford it, and any one-handed bludgeoning weapon you can hold in two hands when you want more damage. You change the shield size as you need for a given situation (double-hand hit with your main weapon, light/heavy shield for shield bashing hits, and tower shield to give you cover for Ref and AC bonus against stuff). At early levels, you can probably stick to a spiked heavy shield, decent one-handed weapon, and a few throwing weapons just in case you need them. Once you have the variable shield, you can take a composite bow as the ranged weapon (since you can shrink the shield down to buckler size).

Shield Ward (PH2) is almost a must-have at some point; it gives shield bonus to touch AC, making that "useless" tower shield infinitely useful for a defensive configuration.

The rest is pretty much opened up. You could dip into Exotic Weapon Proficiency (maul or warmace); weapons are from CW, and prof lets you use it one-handed. Does very impressive damage as a one-handed weapon, which you could use two-handed by shrinking down the variable shield to a buckler. Use it with Power Attack for even more fun. Or go Improved Buckler defense with a magic weapon that can change between one-handed and two-handed versions, along with Power Attack; even with a humble changeling spear, you can shrink the spear to shortspear to throw (with returning on it to bring it back), set it up as a longspear against a charge or just to get reach, etc.

The best part is you can dump Dex a bit here, since none of the shield-oriented feats need or want it. All you need is Str, Con, maybe some Cha for smite and Intimidate (see if you can get Never Outnumbered skill trick, could come in handy if your bonuses are high enough for it).

Like I said, I'm sure everyone is rolling their eyes about making a shield-based build work, and no it's not optimal, but it'll get the job done with maneuvers, you bet.

[Troacctid]

You can't bash with a tower shield.

[Darrin]

The best part is you can dump Dex a bit here, since none of the shield-oriented feats need or want it. All you need is Str, Con, maybe some Cha for smite and Intimidate (see if you can get Never Outnumbered skill trick, could come in handy if your bonuses are high enough for it).

I am not entirely in agreement with this advice. Agile Shield Fighter allows you to TWF with a heavy shield, and replaces the TWF penalties with -2/-2, which is somewhat useful... however, you can do the same thing by taking Oversized TWF (Complete Adventurer), which allows you to treat a heavy shield as if it were a light weapon, and it doesn't cost you two prereq feats. (You'll still want to take Improved Shield Bash, but you don't need to take Shield Specialization... and you're going to need every feat slot because a shield-basted TWF build is going to be horrendously feat-starved.)

The other problem with Agile Shield Fighter is while it allows you to TWF with a heavy shield, you only get one offhand attack. If you want to get a second or third offhand attack, you'll need to take TWF (which is useless to you now), then Improved TWF and Greater TWF. And those do have Dex requirements.

[Eisfalken]

A Red Wizard wouldn't even buff him if he were enslaved and being forced to be a bodyguard.

Small point of order: the Red Wizard doesn't waste spells if it doesn't serve an immediate purpose/need.

I can do more destruction with a bodyguard with enlarge person at a high CL than a couple of fireballs can do on their own. If that bodyguard follows me willingly through a combination of mental conditioning and me actually rewarding them in the slightest once in a while, then I don't waste magic controlling them like lesser wizards have to.

When you play a Red Wizard, doing evil "for teh lulz" won't make you powerful. Doing it to force others into submission to your power, to force events to happen in a controlled manner, and anything that puts power in your hands, that's all fair game.

[John Longarrow]

For Thayan Knight, the prestige class does little to help your build. If you are taking it solely for role playing reasons, talk to the DM to see if you can just stay crusader instead.

With initiators (classes from Tome of Battle) keeping up your initiator level is almost as important as keeping up spell casting is to a spell caster. Higher level maneuvers get progressively better so anything that slows down how quickly you get them needs to be balanced against what higher level maneuvers you could take instead.

[Eisfalken]

You can't bash with a tower shield.

Yes, and if you had read my post, you'd see that I said you start with heavy shield, and buy a variable shield later on. Which lets you change a shield between buckler, light, heavy, and tower, for just +1 cost.

So then you can use the shield for either more attack, or more defense. Buckler for two-handed weapons, heavy shield for one-handed ones, and tower when even a few points of AC or Ref could be important.


I am not entirely in agreement with this advice. Agile Shield Fighter allows you to TWF with a heavy shield, and replaces the TWF penalties with -2/-2, which is somewhat useful... however, you can do the same thing by taking Oversized TWF (Complete Adventurer), which allows you to treat a heavy shield as if it were a light weapon, and it doesn't cost you two prereq feats.

No, it doesn't have two pre-req feats. It requires Str 13, and TWF, which needs Dex 15. Meaning you now suffer MAD (you have to have Con, and would be advised to have at least some mental stats for crusader).

I guess my question is, is a feat worth MAD? I think it is, depending on your actual stat layout. If you get 32 point buy or lucky rolls, sure, Oversized TWF is a strictly better deal if you're really that feat-starved. But then you also don't qualify for Shield Ward, which puts your shield bonus on touch AC, which I think is something to at least think about (touch AC being the only sure way to zap people at high levels, especially fighter-types).


The other problem with Agile Shield Fighter is while it allows you to TWF with a heavy shield, you only get one offhand attack. If you want to get a second or third offhand attack, you'll need to take TWF (which is useless to you now), then Improved TWF and Greater TWF. And those do have Dex requirements.

Granted, but there's an issue even I hadn't considered until now:

He's a crusader. Read the mechanics on strikes. See how they're all standard actions? Yeah, no extra attacks. He can move and strike, but those extra attacks all take full-round actions. Even if he wanted to squeeze out more damage, he's better off with maneuvers doing that. Divine Surge is 8d8 in a single attack at full BAB, and he gets access to it at 7th level.

So technically, shield bashing as we're suggesting is neither necessary nor efficient. I'd say he should still consider grabbing Shield Specialization/Ward to boost touch AC, and still consider a variable shield to provide options as needed (tower for cover, heavy for regular fighting, buckler for using a bow or bigger melee weapon).

Otherwise, he's better off getting things that synch with maneuvers: anything that boosts attacks overall, but don't require full-round anything. Power Attack and/or charging builds might be better here. Never mind the actual TOB feats he may want to get extra maneuvers, stances, or other abilities.

[Ludic]

Small point of order: the Red Wizard doesn't waste spells if it doesn't serve an immediate purpose/need.

I can do more destruction with a bodyguard with enlarge person at a high CL than a couple of fireballs can do on their own. If that bodyguard follows me willingly through a combination of mental conditioning and me actually rewarding them in the slightest once in a while, then I don't waste magic controlling them like lesser wizards have to.

When you play a Red Wizard, doing evil "for teh lulz" won't make you powerful. Doing it to force others into submission to your power, to force events to happen in a controlled manner, and anything that puts power in your hands, that's all fair game.

While this is true, I was applying this to the suggestion that he use an Anthro-Badger (for rage) with human-blooded feats (which would technically allow him to take the Thayan Knight PrC, even if the setting still wouldn't). Which even if it suited his immediate purpose, the Red Wizard still wouldn't waste a spell on because it's a disposable non-human that he can replace by forcing another into submission, or just buying at the next fork in the road.