I love leadership, but I hate the leadership feat

[flamewolf393]

I finally realized this in the campaign I am running. Its a single player with a dm game. He effectively HAS the leadership feat, but this is only because he has been role-playing his in game likable personality, logically sound decisions, helping people while fulfilling his own goals, and sheer makes-sense-to-the-common-man attitude. He has made so many people like him, and trust his decisions enough that he has nearly as much influence in the capital city he lives in as the king himself. He has assembled his own party of 10 dedicated npcs that will follow him to the ends of the earth through his roleplay. All without the crutch of the leadership feat. He has assembled his own party of 10 dedicated npcs that will follow him to the ends of the earth through his roleplay.

I love this.

I love that he basically has leadership. It makes me hate the people that have taken the leadership feat with so little build up that we have to suddenly explain a reason he just suddenly de-facto became a leader of so many people.

[Doctor Despair]

One useful way to think of it is that while you can roleplay to gain that influence, you can also take the leadership to gain followers and a cohort without a lick of roleplaying, sort of how you can roleplay a situation to make a character help you or roll a yes-level diplomacy check and let the dice do the talking for you. Another (more fiat-based) way to think of it is to say that he "earned" leadership as a bonus feat through roleplay. There are precedents for gaining bonus feats by helping others, as of the "Guildmaster" feat. Either way, it sounds like you two are having a great time, and that is the most important part, haha.

[Crake]

See, this is the way my group runs leadership: You get the followers, then you get the feat.

Up until you get the feat, your cohort is a legitimate NPC, under the DM's control, he or she takes xp just like a normal character would, but then once you get the leadership feat, they officially become your cohort and move to the cohort rules, no longer reducing the XP you get, and being under the player's general control in combat (though not necessarily outside of combat). I never let the player suddenly and magically pick up the leadership feat without any buildup, the feat represents the mechanical rewards of their interaction with the world, and secures their position as a leader to their followers. The feat should reflect the world, not dictate it.

Obviously, if the player does not want to actually take the leadership feat, he is not required to do so, however there are certain leadership feat bonuses that can be gained should it be taken (namely the cohort expecting less of a cut of the loot, since they don't get their own share, they get a portion of your share, and not siphoning player xp), as well as being more or less a second PC rather than a NPC, giving the player more control over how the character acts.

[JNAProductions]

LOL, you tried use Leadership Optimized Cleric to try counterspell Black Scar.

But, you failed again.

This has absolutely nothing to do with your terrible build. Please refrain from commenting in this without anything productive.

On topic, I agree with the "Roleplay your leadership, THEN get the feat". Seems like a cool idea!

[John Longarrow]

In game there are several ways to look at followers:
1) As you've shown having a character go around talking to people can easily attract followers.
2) In game the characters actions can attract followers because of their heroic nature.
3) Party can have an in-game adventure where they escort a group, thus getting followers as a challenge.
4) Character/party could establish a base of operations which, once it becomes safe, will attract people and followers.
5) During character creation a character can grab Leadership to reflect this having happened.

Biggest advantage to the feat itself is automatic replacements. It also generally grants in game control that having "10 dedicated npcs that will follow him to the ends of the earth" normally won't. This is player control of a cohort rather than the DM running the dedicated NPCs. Likewise Crake posted mechanical in game reasons for your character to have the feat.

If you, as DM, don't like the feat don't include it.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

this is why i rather go for the thrallherd prestige class, it gives the reason

[icefractal]

In a solo campaign that starts at low level, I'd agree you don't need the feat. But in a more typical campaign, I think it has some uses, even aside from the mechanical difference (the cohort/followers not taking a share of XP).

1) If you're starting out as accomplished people, then "has assembled a group of devoted followers" could be something that happened prior to the game starting. So the feat represents that.

2) In a party with 4-5 other PCs, there might not be enough time to have all the recruiting of people happen 'on camera'. And hand waving it could have fairness issues.


When I've run, the Leadership feat is by no means the only way to get followers or even equally powerful allies, but it provides some advantages:
* No splitting XP
* Followers don't need to be paid
* Followers (and especially the cohort) are more loyal
* They get replaced if lost

Although conversely, I discourage bringing the cohort along on adventures unless the party is shorthanded. Not only is it massively better than any other feat when used that way, but having twice as many characters involved slows things way down.

[Coidzor]

It should really be either its own subsystem, not accessed with a feat at all or be awarded something like a bonus feat without the level requirement.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about the people that don't have the personality or RP chops to do as your friend has done? Should they just be barred from getting to be leaders in this fantasy escapist pass-time we engage in? I say no. No more so than should a player who can barely bench-press an empty bar and has all the grace of a duck with a broken leg be forbidden from playing a competent melee combatant.

Every element of the game exists to let a player do the things they cannot do in real life as part of their escape into fantasy land. For a lot of players, the mechanics that supplement or replace their (in)ability to speak with grace and charm are just as important as any mechanic representing a physical or magical ability. Leadership is one such mechanic.

That said, if you want to give it out as a bonus feat for good RP, by all means do so. Giving extras is almost always a better choice than stripping options away unless you just can't handle the thing in question.

[Eisfalken]

I actually like the way Star Wars d20 worked it out. Every class got a Reputation score that altered social stuff, but it also determined the kind of people you could get as a follower. Started at level 10 (which actually tracks with how AD&D 2nd edition did it), and you could never get anyone all that super powerful, like with Leadership. It was for you to have pilots, housekeepers, and general "staff" your character could find useful. Or, yes, you can use it to get yourself a few extra guns, though they'll definitely be depending on you to lead them and keep them alive.

You can basically use a similar system, with the Reputation rules from UA for various classes. You'll have to alter it for non-core base classes, but the UA rules provide a really good starting point.

Anyway, there's alternatives to Leadership in the game. I love Apprentice/Mentor from DMG2; most folks only want the cohort anyway, and the notion is that for a few levels, the PC owes time to the other person, which is fair.

Dragon Cohort is okay, though not nearly as "awesome" as some folks think; the dragons you get aren't always fit for riding. But the wyvern or spiked felldrake are good choices; I've taken the latter with levels of DFA so it could have breath weapons and flight to be a "dragon-lite" companion. Lots of good combat options, and some magic tricks to help out.

Thrallherd is okay, but some DMs ain't comfy with the free Leadership if they didn't want it in their game. If you can't take it, go with Mindbender instead: basically nets you some companions the same way, but not as many or always as powerful.