How to play a BBEG that is ancient/has tons of INT?

[Xathrax]

Hello everyone,

In the game I am running now the players will be up against a lich with 26 INT and more than a thousand years behind him. It seems logical to me that such a creature would be able to create evil plans with numerous contingencies and backups to make sure that thwarting them is very difficult. I also suspect that I myself wouldn't be clever enough to create something like that in advance as I myself do not posses a 26 INT score.

They will probably defeat the lich when they reach higher levels, but will already try to mess with his plans during low-mid levels. I would like to allow them to have some degree of success, but on the grand scale I want to showcase that they are dealing with someone who is very well prepared and not easily foiled.

My solution for now is that I have laid out the general goal that the lich wants to achieve and the main milestones to achieve this. As the players try to interfere they will be able to delay events, but when they seem to disrupt something really important I intend to come up with a reasonable way out and go "AHA! The BBEG took this into account!".

For instance the players stop some important ritual/spellcasting/etc that uses some powerful magic item/artifact, but as they attempt to retrieve it the magic item/artifact just teleports away because you need to speak a keyword before touching it. The result is delaying the plans as other components need to be assembled again, but doesn't actually stop anything. I would like the players to realize that they will probably not be able to outsmart someone who is supposed to be significantly smarter than them unless they put me in a position where counters I can come up with would seem a bit stretched. The endgame would be to discover where the lich is located and destroy him. The party will be aided by equally intelligent beings who will make sure the lich does not escape.

How does this idea sound? What would your approach be? I am still have a bad taste in my mouth from a time I was a player and we entered a liches lair, came into a room with a very surprised lich in it, killed him with nearly no effort, failed to find his phylactary, but he never came back to have revenge. It was a huge dissapointment for me at that time.

[Troacctid]

If you access to it, Volo's Guide to Monsters has some really great material on how to roleplay super-intelligent monsters like beholders and illithids.

[khadgar567]

you might want to ping Red Fel for more info in this particular topic

[Novolin]

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel!

[Xathrax]

If you access to it, Volo's Guide to Monsters has some really great material on how to roleplay super-intelligent monsters like beholders and illithids.

I will google what that is and see if I can get a copy.


Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel!

I assume that is a user here on the forums?

[Novolin]

I assume that is a user here on the forums?

Hes good at Lawful Evil

[khadgar567]

and generaly best mentor to hopeful evil guys as well as old timers like your lich boss just explain the the idea of character and he will show you how to play him with int 90

[kuhaica]

I've played several characters like this. What I do is generally pull things out of my rear. Or more constructively and less rage fueling is I Insure that mutiple plot hooks have something that involve the BBEG. This allows me to prepare ahead of time to show that the evil fellow is prepared for many outcomes.

Along with this, I always run grand games. I have mutiple things going on at all times. More times then not it'll happen as I plan it to happen unless the players have done something to affect it or affect it themselves.

I generally plan this out using a Web chart. And to many peices of paper. It makes my life easier and allows me to give the players a sense of being small in a sea of events. But soon they clue in that there is always a plot to follow and one small action can have major repercussions for good or bad.


Now. For playing the smart BBEG itself. That's a little tricky. What I generally do is write a few lines for them plus a trigger word to get that dialog. From there I can have an example of what they would say and that helps me sound smart. Or. You can just wing it.

But end of the day you need to remember that as a 1000 year old Lich. This guy or gal. Isn't just Smart. He knows things. He's seen things occur. He has been kicking about for many years. One thing I like to do with old BBEGs is that they have many allies. Most of which don't even know who they truly serve. A fun thing I did was the BBEG helped a kingdom overthrow the ruler and assisted them in rebuilding. But in return making a pact with the blood line and when the time came. They must honor that pact.

It turned the PCs strongest ally into there enemy. And made them go from trying to stop the BBEG doing there ritual to break the pact. Made it a very interesting game.

[ZamielVanWeber]

For playing the BBEG, leave some spells unprepared and just cast whatever the lich knows out of that slot pretending he had prepared it the whole time. When your party plans be ready to counter some of their planning right off the bat as the lich would have already thought of this and been prepared for it.

[Troacctid]

For playing the BBEG, leave some spells unprepared and just cast whatever the lich knows out of that slot pretending he had prepared it the whole time. When your party plans be ready to counter some of their planning right off the bat as the lich would have already thought of this and been prepared for it.

That's what the Uncanny Forethought feat does!

[Red Fel]

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel!

You're talkin' to him!


Hello everyone,

Hello, new friend.


In the game I am running now the players will be up against a lich with 26 INT and more than a thousand years behind him. It seems logical to me that such a creature would be able to create evil plans with numerous contingencies and backups to make sure that thwarting them is very difficult. I also suspect that I myself wouldn't be clever enough to create something like that in advance as I myself do not posses a 26 INT score.

They will probably defeat the lich when they reach higher levels, but will already try to mess with his plans during low-mid levels. I would like to allow them to have some degree of success, but on the grand scale I want to showcase that they are dealing with someone who is very well prepared and not easily foiled.

This is a great idea. The fact is, the more elaborate the plan, the more moving pieces you'll have, and the more things can go wrong. A smart BBEG will have redundancies in place, but with so many plates spinning, the PCs can still mess a few things up for him and feel a great sense of accomplishment.


My solution for now is that I have laid out the general goal that the lich wants to achieve and the main milestones to achieve this. As the players try to interfere they will be able to delay events, but when they seem to disrupt something really important I intend to come up with a reasonable way out and go "AHA! The BBEG took this into account!".

Here's where I stop you. There are many rules that I cite on and off, but here's a big one: Never put an NPC in front of the PCs if you don't want them to kill it, and never put a plan in front of them if you don't want them to disrupt it. And another: If the PCs succeed, let them succeed.

It's very simple. If you want there to be some plan that the PCs don't disrupt, don't give them the opportunity. Because if you do give them the opportunity, fairness and verisimilitude dictate that, if they try and succeed, their success counts. That's not to say the BBEG can't have a redundancy in place, but that particular victory needs to be real.


For instance the players stop some important ritual/spellcasting/etc that uses some powerful magic item/artifact, but as they attempt to retrieve it the magic item/artifact just teleports away because you need to speak a keyword before touching it. The result is delaying the plans as other components need to be assembled again, but doesn't actually stop anything.

This is what I mean. "Sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle," is just mean. Don't give them the artifact and then pull it away again. Instead, find a way to trick the PCs into surrendering the artifact. Take a friend hostage. Have them donate it to a temple secretly led by one of the BBEG's minions. But don't just arbitrarily, by fiat, say, "Whoops, it's gone!" That's cheap.


I would like the players to realize that they will probably not be able to outsmart someone who is supposed to be significantly smarter than them unless they put me in a position where counters I can come up with would seem a bit stretched. The endgame would be to discover where the lich is located and destroy him. The party will be aided by equally intelligent beings who will make sure the lich does not escape.

How does this idea sound? What would your approach be? I am still have a bad taste in my mouth from a time I was a player and we entered a liches lair, came into a room with a very surprised lich in it, killed him with nearly no effort, failed to find his phylactary, but he never came back to have revenge. It was a huge dissapointment for me at that time.

First off, I'd ditch, or at least reduce, the influence of "equally intelligent beings." Let the victory belong to the PCs. Instead, I'd give the BBEG some reasonable but exploitable flaws.

Let me explain. While I love the David Xanatos archetype of masterminds, they are not fun. And Rule #1 needs to be the Rule of Fun: If people walk away from the table frustrated, or not entertained, something, somewhere, has gone awry. Your job is to make a BBEG who is compelling, intimidating, and memorable; not invulnerable.

Which leads me to my next key point: Int is incredibly powerful. An ultra-high-Int BBEG is a force to be reckoned with, with contingencies and plans within plans, elaborate machinations and manipulations. I love high-Int BBEGs. But Int is not an invulnerability. Particularly when dealing with an ancient being. And here's where "reasonable but exploitable flaws" come into play.

Immortality brings its own set of problems. Key among them is that the passage of time becomes meaningless. What matters are the routines. The longer you live, the more your routines become ingrained. Likewise, the more plans you have spinning, the harder it is to keep track of them all. Further, hubris is totally a thing - a villain with high Int is dangerous, but a villain with high Int who knows it can be too smart for his own good. So here are several strategies you can use to give your BBEG flaws.
The creature of habit. As an immortal, your BBEG measures time, not by the clock or sun or seasons, but by routines. He has things that he does, in order, a carefully-cultivated methodology. He needs these routines; they're what keeps him anchored. As the PCs disrupt his plans, they also disrupt his routines. As a result, his mind begins to unravel, as he starts to lose the capacity to keep track of everything. By the time they confront him, the perfectly composed mastermind is frantic and furious, and has lost track of just what he has to do to emerge victorious.
The creature of plans. He has had centuries to put plans in place. So many plans, many designed to run on their own. So as he approaches the finish line, it should be no surprise if he forgets one or two of them, or fails to realize that the PCs have derailed something necessary. Suddenly, instead of the PCs racing to stop the BBEG, they're racing against the BBEG, who is desperately trying to retrace his steps and determine what he needs to do next.
The creature of logic. Immortality has a serious flaw - it disconnects us from the day to day concerns of living. The immortal, withdrawn from society, generally becomes cold, logical, and distant. Fine for a mastermind or researcher, but poor for a strategist. The PCs don't outsmart him with strategy, but randomness - doing the unexpected, the unpredictable, the wholly irrational and illogical. As his perfectly constructed machine of a scheme falls apart, the BBEG struggles to comprehend how these idiot lunatics could possibly continue to best him. There is still a confrontation, and he is still a powerful foe, but their actions have stripped him of his strongest weapons and contingencies.
The creature of ego. He is perfect. He has overcome death itself. His plans were in place before the PCs were a twinkle in the eyes of their great-grandparents. He has the most sophisticated mind the world has ever known. There is simply no way that his plans can fail. Centuries of thinking like this have conditioned him; he is simply incapable of perceiving the PCs as a true threat. Once they force him to pay attention, he tosses out mere haphazard attempts to defeat them, which the PCs overcome, because obviously. By the time they confront him, he is utterly unprepared; despite his contingencies and plans, he never actually thought that anyone would make it that far.
These are just a few ideas. The basic thing to keep in mind is that his Int makes him dangerous, but not unbeatable - turn it into a double-edged sword and watch the PCs wield it against him.


Hes good at Lawful Evil

The best.

[Xathrax]

I suppose it would also make sense to give a general idea of what the lich is attempting to achieve. I had to scrap my previous campaign due to players never having time simultaneously, but wanted to use the main idea - the attempt to resurrect Myrkul. I have yet to decide if this is to somehow steal his power, gain favor or something else, but I will probably have at least 6+ months of real time before that becomes relevant.

To reward people for having background stories I try to tie in either the plot or some events to what they wrote themselves.

I have a human dread necromancer in the group who has Tomb-Tainted Soul so he can heal himself. His story is that he was an apprentice at a wizard school and read a spell from an unknown book which summoned something and also tainted him in some way(explaining the feat). Whatever he summoned seems to be chasing him. What I intend to do with this is that the book didn't come in his possession by chance and it was stolen from the local archmage by agents of the lich and he was just a randomly chosen apprentice who would attempt the spell without fully understanding what he was doing. Him casting it was actually part of a larger ritual that drew remnants of Myrkuls essence and in a way bound him to the character. While they are not connected he acts as a beacon in the darkness for him to follow. While he thought he is randomly running from what he believes is chasing him in reality he was herded to where the remaining events were suppose to happen.

The remaining players also somehow are part of a larger plot. When they will reach level 7-8(they are level 2 now) they will discover that they were pawns in the liches plans and what each of them was doing(somehow connected to their backstories) actually furthered his plans. They will find out when the next ritual fires off and the essences of Myrkul fuse and absorb sufficient power to form a physical avatar. I am yet to decide how they survive, but it will probably involve them being captured to be turned into undead and later escape.

[Red Fel]

The remaining players also somehow are part of a larger plot. When they will reach level 7-8(they are level 2 now) they will discover that they were pawns in the liches plans and what each of them was doing(somehow connected to their backstories) actually furthered his plans. They will find out when the next ritual fires off and the essences of Myrkul fuse and absorb sufficient power to form a physical avatar. I am yet to decide how they survive, but it will probably involve them being captured to be turned into undead and later escape.

I love the idea of working each character's backstory into the plot. But keep one thing in mind - characters die, players take breaks or leave. Be sure to have a "trapdoor" for each character, so that their death or departure doesn't derail the demon's dreadful designs. Remember, no character - PC or NPC - should have plot armor. No character "must survive."

Likewise, don't put any element into your scheme that requires the PCs to do something, be somewhere, or suffer some condition. If your plan requires the PCs to stop a ritual, expect that they'll spend that time hunting wolves. If it requires them to be in the capital to see the devastation, expect them to be in a cave somewhere. And if it requires them to turn Undead, expect them to be out searching for a cure, or just killing one another and paying for True Resurrection.

[Doctor Despair]

As far as ego being the lich's downfall, I like the idea of the lich actually succeeding in his plan to achieve some sort of power trip -- but not having planned further than that, assuming that his success would provide him with ample power to dispose of any resistance at his leisure, leading to some final boss fight type scenario. Or perhaps while he is succeeding with his plan, the PCs have found some key piece of information regarding the location of his phylactery and, despite all his strength, his own anti-teleportation protections means he must now race against the PCs to reach it. Either way, even if all of his plans go exactly as, well, planned, the PCs can still surprise him.

[Xathrax]

Lots of stuff


Nice! Those are some good points. It certainly gives me something to think about!

I agree that expecting PCs to do certain stuff is futile. Sadly I am currently heavily relying on the characters to stay alive to keep everything going. I am currently banking on the party leader(a paladin) to be my main tool to get the group to do stuff. I will have someone working for the lich go "OMG! THERE IS EVIL THERE!" so that the paladin grabs the group and drags them where they have to go.

[John Longarrow]

Top ways to keep the party relevant, regardless of what characters are involved:

1) Spell caster would cast the spell themselves. Powerful and smart caster gets someone else to cast it for them. Lich has several groups all casting the spell at the same time, thus reducing points of failure. It also means multiple places that the party can get involved in.

Think of the party members as being as disposable as any other spell component, at least from the liches' perspective, since ANY character could be one of his pawns. How the party fits into his plot misses the fact he's got multiple plots and schemes going on at the same time.

2) Lich has multiple plans all competing for completion. If one fails, normally that just removes competition for another plan to succeed. Players get to thwarted multiple plans but the big scheme keeps right on rolling. Its got a more bumpy ride and less supporting it, but what the players get isn't "Success at stopping the bad guy", they get "Crap, bad guy's got a lot going on... but here's weaknesses we are finding".

3) Lich isn't doing most of this themselves. Until near the end your super intelligent lich isn't even a concept in your character's minds. They are fighting the much less capable minions and sub-bosses before hitting major plot arcs.

4) Minions don't always do what they are told the way the BOSS would like. Spend a few minutes thinkng about each arc in your story, who's involved, and who the lich has set up to run said plot. What are that minions goals and objectives? Will they do what the big boss wants or try to cut corners? Are they working on the plot 100 hours a week or taking breaks to go drinking? Super intelligent bosses don't normally have super intelligent lackies.

5) What are the lynch pins to this plot succeeding? The lich obviously has several redundant pieces keeping it all together, but what happens when the PCs discover the things that hold it all together and keep it all running? Lich wants to summon giant evil being, what happens if the PCs knock out something critical (like the magic circle protecting said lich) while the plot is running? What happens when the players get one of his schemes to crash into another spectacularly?

Red Fel listed a lot of reasons the lich themselves may be less than perfect, but we can't forget how hard it is to get good help when your an evil undead overlord.

[Stealth Marmot]

One must take a holistic view of one's villains, and not focus upon a singular aspect of them.

First thing's first, when designing this villain, be sure to give him/her a onceover with the Giant's Villain Workshop. I found it to be useful in fleshing out your ironically fleshless villain.

But before even doing that, let's instead consider that the vast intelligence is merely one aspect of the villain. Even without going into goals, alignment, or history, we know that the villain is:

A) a mental genius
B) A lich
C) Really really really goddamn old.

Setting aside the genius aspect for a moment, let's focus instead on the fact that he is ancient and undying. This aspect, in my opinion, overpowers the genius level of his consciousness. He has existed for a thousand years.

In the real world, we face the fact that our perceived time is sort of sped up the older we get. 10 minutes as a 7 year old feels like forever, when we are 35, 10 minutes is a brief pause, and by the time we are 70, 10 minutes is an instant. Imagine how time must work to one whose mind is over a thousand years old. weeks must fly by with barely a thought. In fact, the truth is that the events of their earlier life will far more define them than anything that has happened in centuries. You can expect he will speak with an old dialect, keep old style values and ideals, and overall see things through the lens of a thousand years ago (or 900-1000 years ago anyway). How was the world different back then?

So you have to consider that the lich in question is very old in thought and belief, and has a lot of time and patience. This lich will be slow moving, and likely jaded to the point of not caring if a particular plan is foiled because hey, at least it will kill the next few weeks coming up with a new plan.

But speaking of plans, let's also consider the idea that he was around for centuries. Does this not also imply that he might have had things in play since before the heroes were born? He could have resources in dozens of agencies, governments, companies, guilds, everything. Not followers per say, but people he owns through blackmail, extortion, debt, or even actual friends. The lich had a thousand years to build up a power base, don't you think he would have allies in every corner?

What's more, since he has nothing but time, he also probably has no less than a DOZEN different things going on at once.

The heroes can start by foiling one of his smaller plans, but eventually they can work themselves up to disrupting his primary plan. Say for example, they are investigating a cursed village being ravaged by a plague. Why the plague? An associate of the lich cursed it. Why did he curse the village? Well, he actually cursed a half dozen in different ways. Why was he cursing multiple villages? To try to get a local magistrate out of power through political manipulation. Why was he getting that magistrate out of power? Because a vote was coming up for a very important change in a kingdom's decision to go to war. Why would he care if the kingdom went to war? Because of a prophecy that says that "the fields of Sun Valley must run red with the blood of the sons of Castor and Pollux (the names of two twin nations)" And only then will the goddess be reborn"

That's just off the top of my head, but the point is this: There has to be a lot more than what the PCs are seeing in play. The reason is twofold: One, it gives the players an increasing sense of dread and paranoia. Two: There is much more than the players for the lich to worry about, so they can build up their own power before they even appear on his radar.

Now all of this is subjective of course, but given the background, the genius level of the lich, and the fact that he has existed for centuries, this lich has to be planning something BIG, and he has a lot of time to figure it out and arrange whatever he needs. But for him to take so long, it has to be something that is incredible hard to attain without a lot of work and circumstance. if all he wanted to do was assasinate a king, it would take him a few rounds, or at worst a year. But in order to make an impossible prophecy come true, imagine how much he might have to work at it.

In fact imagine if the prophecy involved two twin nations having a bloody battle on a field during a certain time. What if he had to not only manipulate people, but he had to in fact arrange it so that these two nations EXISTED. Imagine if given a few centuries, he actually manipulated the plans and people living in the area in subtle and careful ways in order to miraculously end up with two twin nations who not only existed, but always teetered on warfare. Not onlythat, but arrange the very culture to respect a certain date or place in order to shed blood in battle. Now imagine that this lich manipulated dozens of events in history and turned out to be the mastermind of so much, all for one simple purpose, just to fulfill a prophecy.

Tell me, is that not what a 26 int lich with nothing to do for centuries might plan out?

If you want to know how to play a 26 int character, make them involved in a lot. Think less less some sort of oracle, think instead Moriarty. Plans piled on plans.

[Alcore]

Remember that he was once mortal and still has a mortal mind. Like elves he may have lived all those years but might not remember them with perfect clarity. He also has a charisma and wisdom that while improved is sure to leave him with handicaps of some kind.


He is likely (when I envision such a lich) to be planning for the long term with plans stretching the globe. He'll need a lot of minions and some will have greater autonomy than others. Those minions won't have the bigger picture (or the improved int) and, pending on the mindset the lich, might have long grown bored explaining them.


At lower levels the PCs will not even be ping on his radar; his minions are another question. So right now it's more of "what is the lich's goal" and "what forces are under his control/guidance". Since he will outlive most threats he likely won't care if his plans are set back a few years.

[Stealth Marmot]

You're talkin' to him!


Are you Beetlejuice?

[GloatingSwine]

The Man Behind The Man.

For their first few adventures/several levels, have one or two disposable Not So Big Bads that can be plausibly linked to or manipulated by the Lich. Put in hints that imply the existence of someone behind the scenes. This means the players get some baddies to knock down who you don't have to scramble to keep in play (like Red Fel said, the BBEG only meets the heroes when you're ready for him to die, if you stat it they will kill it).

Bonus points if on the surface the first few things look unrelated but are actually parts of the same plan.

Double Xanatos Bonus Points if thwarting one or more of the first few things was the actual part of the plan.

[Red Fel]

Are you Beetlejuice?

Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Beetlejuice, Hannibal Lecter, Pazuzu?

Amateurs.

[Flickerdart]

The feat Uncanny Forethought is a decent example of how this can be done - mechanically, the wizard casts spontaneously, but in "reality" he was just so smart that he expected he would need that exact spell and prepared it.

As Red Fel mentioned, you don't want to overuse this, but it can be fun to sprinkle the concept around. If the PCs beat up a guy in a castle and stole the Magic Hat of Power, that's fine. They were sent on that quest by the Ancient Brotherhood of Oldness, an organization set up by the lich to seek out pesky adventurers and serve as a deposit point for all the artifacts of power that the lich's plan relies on. So they have a backup Pedestal of Plot in their basement to put the hat on.

But once the PCs figure that out, let them have their win. More than one layer of contingencies is something that you should only spring on the PCs once, and make it really memorable.

[Strigon]

Remember, of course, that even his attentions can only be divided so far, and he only has so many hours in the day. He'll have to delegate. Like, a lot.
He undoubtedly has a very complicated plan, with a lot of backups, but he only knows - and cares about - the strategic moves made. Suppose, for example, as part of his plan he needs to topple a kingdom. He shouldn't be plotting the minutiae of how it'll be done; he'll assign someone competent to the task. Then, they'll figure out what would be necessary to topple the kingdom - say, via famine, civil unrest, and political backstabbing - then that person will hire more people to perform those tasks, who will in turn hire other people to burn farms, incite riots, and the like.
They won't be dealing with the mastermind, at all. The people they're dealing with could be removed as many as five or six links from the actual BBEG. Which, in turn, means he likely won't even be aware of them until they start to be a real threat.

Another thing to do isn't necessarily contingencies, but redundancies. So you stopped the famine, for example, and managed to get aid from another kingdom that will give out food. That doesn't solve the other problems, and so the kingdom will still fall. Strike from multiple directions at once, or in ways that seem unconnected until the final move is made. Why switch to plan B, when you can just make plan A foolproof?

[Stealth Marmot]

Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Beetlejuice, Hannibal Lecter, Pazuzu?

Amateurs.

Really?

https://www.overthinkingit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/dread-pirate-roberts-300x224.jpg

[Alcore]

Another thing to do isn't necessarily contingencies, but redundancies. So you stopped the famine, for example, and managed to get aid from another kingdom that will give out food. That doesn't solve the other problems, and so the kingdom will still fall. Strike from multiple directions at once, or in ways that seem unconnected until the final move is made. Why switch to plan B, when you can just make plan A foolproof?

Perhaps as a stress release he is, personally, running around at odd times spreading a plague in the kingdom for lulz. He is strong enough to avoid detection and pending on what's left of his mortal mind; he might need it to remain sane.


Switch plan? Have A B and C going at once!:smallamused:

[Stealth Marmot]

Switch plan? Have A B and C going at once!:smallamused:

At 26 int you'd probably need to use a different language just so you would have an alphabet with more letters.

[Keltest]

The creature of logic. Immortality has a serious flaw - it disconnects us from the day to day concerns of living. The immortal, withdrawn from society, generally becomes cold, logical, and distant. Fine for a mastermind or researcher, but poor for a strategist. The PCs don't outsmart him with strategy, but randomness - doing the unexpected, the unpredictable, the wholly irrational and illogical. As his perfectly constructed machine of a scheme falls apart, the BBEG struggles to comprehend how these idiot lunatics could possibly continue to best him. There is still a confrontation, and he is still a powerful foe, but their actions have stripped him of his strongest weapons and contingencies.

So, they beat him by being normal PCs?

[Stealth Marmot]

So, they beat him by being normal PCs?

Indeed but I am reminded of a time I managed to get one up on a particularly clever and intelligent person I actually had a pretty serious beef with at the time.

So we were playing Super Smash Bros Brawll and he had the tendency to play in the most irritating ways possible, usually by either sniping with Pit from a corner, or in the case of Solid Snake, dropping mines and claymores everywhere and run away hoping everyone else would fall on them. I got the stage select option though, and he selected Snake BEFORE I got to slect the stage. So I picked the Super Mario stage where you have to keep walking to the rigt. Because we kept walking to the right, all of his dropped bombs and mines kept becoming irrelevant as they went left off the screen. Still, Snake is a character who can actually fight otherwise, but the fact that his pre set strategy was neutralized was enough to set him off and he basically rage quitted after a while. He technically stayed til he ran out of livs, but left immediately in a huff saying it was somehow BS. This taught me something, guys who always have a plan HATE having to think up a plan on the spot and HATE randomness. Insert some chaos into their lives and plans and they just can't deal with it.

[Red Fel]

So, they beat him by being normal PCs?

Or shounen heroes.


This taught me something, guys who always have a plan HATE having to think up a plan on the spot and HATE randomness. Insert some chaos into their lives and plans and they just can't deal with it.

Pretty much this. The compulsive planner takes comfort and confidence in his plans. His worldview is based around the idea that something can be made foolproof. Take away that comfort and confidence, build a better fool, and watch him devolve into a raging, slobbering maniac.

[Calthropstu]

Here's how I would do it.

This lich has, of course, minions. Not all of these minions need to be undead, a powerful lich could, say, bribe (much less) powerful wizard by giving him the secrets to becoming a lich himself. That wizard, in turn, could hire the PCs to perform various tasks. The PCs then become unwitting pawns in the lich's master plan.

Some examples:

One of the rituals requires the ritual sacrifice of a princess. It just so happens that a princess has been kidnapped by an archduke planning to overthrow the king. The wizard hires the party to go and rescue her and bring her to him so that he may "teleport her to safety." He waits for them to perform the function, pays them for their services, and teleports away with his prize.

When they find out the princess was never returned, they go looking for this wizard (who of course gave them a completely false name and used an illusion to appear as someone else) and stumble onto the wizards plots which, in turn, give clues as to the lich's plots. Usually, well laid plans go awry because they rely on someone else doing something and they fail. When the wizard, who was a mere pawn himself, is ultimately killed and the lich has to fall back on a less than ideal backup plan, it ultimately leads to a small flaw in his otherwise unbreakable defenses.

The more intricate and brilliant a plan is, the more likely it is that the plan can be broken with a sledgehammer, but the harder it is to figure out where to swing that sledgehammer. Maybe the wizard had something the lich wanted very very much, and now the PCs have it. Maybe they destroyed a particular rare mushroom patch when they cast fireball in a cavern that was absolutely essential. Maybe they killed a secret messenger or spy when they wiped out an orc raiding party. Maybe, by saving a particular noble, they set back his plans because that noble was opposed to a new law he needed to have passed.

Sure, there can be backup plans. The Noble was saved from a group of bandits by the heroes, but an assassin came in the night. Backup plans are backup plans for a reason: they are less ideal and are more apt to expose something they don't want. The assassin kills the noble, suddenly the PCs know something is up and may investigate why he was killed (as will the city watch of course). The rare mushroom patch got destroyed, but there's a compatible substitute much further away which causes a significant delay.

The more backup plans you have to rely on the more your overall plan begins to fall apart.

[Segev]

David Xanatos villains actually can be quite fun for players to face, if they're handled right. The beauty of them in a narrative, protagonist-oriented sense is that the protagonists can win every "episode," and the villain still comes off looking savvy and competent.

The key is to properly understand what a "Xanatos Gambit" is, and what it is not.

What it is not is any old "complicated" plan with a billion contingencies. It is not, as well, a precognitive work of wonder that took into account every twist and turn so that everything is "just as planned" no matter what happens. That latter is, I think, what Red Fel is thinking of when he says this kind of villain is boring - though I could be wrong, and he's free to correct me.

A Xanatos Gambit is a plan where you have at LEAST two victory conditions. Not two "plans," and not even a contingency (though contingency plans are good in their own right), but two things you want. They may or may not be mutually exclusive. The ideal Xanatos Gambit is one wherein the thwarting of your overt plan - the one designed to get victory condition "A" - all but automatically causes victory condition "B" to be achieved for you.

A good example is the scheme where you send a troublesome pawn who could become dangerous to you (or to whom you've become too indebted) to perform a dangerous, unlikely-to-succeed task that you nevertheless want accomplished.

If they die in the execution, well, you lost a pawn, but it was one that you were getting worried would cost you too much in the near future. If they fail, their cachet is diminished even if they return, so you can use that to "forget" some of what you owe them or to undermine their threat level to you. If they succeed, you laud them as appropriate and take credit for having assigned them to solve the problem. And the problem was, in fact, solved.

No matter what happens, you won. And you didn't do anything to this pawn which he can or even should hold against you, so you've not CREATED a new enemy out of a former ally, should he survive.


An ancient, super-intelligent schemer would be good with these sorts of plans. He should have use for either outcome - should his overt plan succeed, he got the overt goal achieved; but if something happens, the failure of his overt plan should position him to win something else.

The flaw that a schemer of this nature can most easily fall into is one where he starts to plan for "plan A" to fail, expecting it to be "plan B" that he actually wins. This can start to lead into situations where he forgets to make victory condition "A" actually desirable, to the point where he might be disappointed if it comes to fruition. This can backfire not just by having his patsies fail to "thwart" his undesired plan A, but by having said patsies realize that plan A is, itself, a diversion.

The flaw that a would-be schemer of this nature can tend to fall for is where he actually is just using Plan A as a distraction while he executes Plan B, himself. Plan A's real goal is "got the heroes out of the way," not its own ends. And worse, its failure (even though it kept the heroes busy and out of your way) doesn't guarantee Plan B's success.



But again, a good Xanatos type villain is a fun one to run and for players to face because the players DO get to win most of the time (if not all of the time) while the villain remains competent. Just don't rub the plan B in the heroes' faces every time. The goal is for the thwarting of plan A to really be a victory they can enjoy.

[Calthropstu]

Ah yes, I forgot about the whole multi win scenario. That too is something that would be utilized by a millennia old high intelligence creature. Of course, such a creature would still have some ultimate objective it is aiming for. And, if the PCs are supposed to end up destroying him, it has to be something it is willing to put its life on the line for. Such a creature could simply put all his plans on hold, disappear for a century and the PCs will likely all be dead when it becomes active again. The only way it would risk a direct confrontation is if there was something that absolutely had to be done NOW with failure not an option.

[Clopin Silk]

Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Beetlejuice, Hannibal Lecter, Pazuzu?

Amateurs.
A-are you the devil? I'm pretty sure you're the devil, and I'm okay with that. And I'm not okay with that.

But to address the main idea, my big suggestion for a weakness would have to be spite. Pure, ego-driven spite. Once the heroes have messed with his plans enough, he's going to start to hate them. And that hate's just going to grow as they continue to get in his way. Eventually, it'll reach the point where he decides that his plans can't possibly come to fruition as long as they're still alive, so he'll start taking direct actions against them. And as they thwart his attempts to kill them, destroying them will seem more and more important, until eventually, he'll want them dead more than he wants to complete his big plan, and that's when the heroes really have a shot at beating him.

[Buufreak]

A-are you the devil? I'm pretty sure you're the devil, and I'm okay with that. And I'm not okay with that.

He most certainly isn't the devil. Such a title is in no way befitting of Red Fel, and here's why: We, as a human race, have the ability to make up our minds. We can choose to think or say a great many things, and in this case, choose to believe anything we wish, or what we don't wish. As such, as many people there are that believe in "the devil," there are far more that simply don't, for one reason or another. However, despite what people wish to believe, no matter what foundation of religion/spiritualism they have, not a soul on this or any other form can hope to deny the existence of Red Fel.

[Red Fel]

A-are you the devil? I'm pretty sure you're the devil, and I'm okay with that. And I'm not okay with that.

The devil? Oh my me, no. Far too much paperwork in that.

No, A is the word you're looking for. A big, scarlet, A.


He most certainly isn't the devil. Such a title is in no way befitting of Red Fel, and here's why: We, as a human race, have the ability to make up our minds. We can choose to think or say a great many things, and in this case, choose to believe anything we wish, or what we don't wish. As such, as many people there are that believe in "the devil," there are far more that simply don't, for one reason or another. However, despite what people wish to believe, no matter what foundation of religion/spiritualism they have, not a soul on this or any other form can hope to deny the existence of Red Fel.

That's the sweetest thing anybody has said about me all day. I'll remember your name, now. Make of that what you like. You have the ability to think what you like, after all.

[Stealth Marmot]

No, A is the word you're looking for. A big, scarlet, A.

Perhaps you should wear a nice badge with that letter on you at all times as a reminder.

That will certainly prevent any confusion.

[Flickerdart]

Perhaps you should wear a nice badge with that letter on you at all times as a reminder.

That will certainly prevent any confusion.

The guy with a giant Eh on his costume is Captain Canuck, surely.

[Red Fel]

Perhaps you should wear a nice badge with that letter on you at all times as a reminder.

That will certainly prevent any confusion.

Sorry, but that one isn't my favorite sin. Mine is something else.

http://www.okmoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1-The-Devils-Advocate-quotes.gif


The guy with a giant Eh on his costume is Captain Canuck, surely.

Or the Fonz.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZWwMre0PuTQ/hqdefault.jpg

No fooling.

[Buufreak]

I'll remember your name, now.

Well now I feel like a favored among cultist. I can retire happy now.

[Gnaeus]

For playing the BBEG, leave some spells unprepared and just cast whatever the lich knows out of that slot pretending he had prepared it the whole time. When your party plans be ready to counter some of their planning right off the bat as the lich would have already thought of this and been prepared for it.

This is basically how Amber suggests dealing with superhumanly intelligent ancient beings. Not spells in particular, but just adjust the plans after you have seen what happens and pretend he had figured it all out beforehand.

[Segev]

You have the ability to think what you like, after all.*takes the anti-life equation away and puts it back in its drawer*

You know you're not supposed to play with that during the work week, young man.


Sorry, but that one isn't my favorite sin. Mine is something else.

http://www.okmoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/1-The-Devils-Advocate-quotes.gifReally? I thought it was Pride.



No points for guessing what mine is. >_> <_<

[Flickerdart]

No points for guessing what mine is. >_> <_<

Hanging the toilet paper roll under instead of over is technically not a sin.

[Segev]

Hanging the toilet paper roll under instead of over is technically not a sin.

Ah, but what if you fold it into a decorative point?

[Red Fel]

*takes the anti-life equation away and puts it back in its drawer*

You know you're not supposed to play with that during the work week, young man.

Aww... But it's almost the weekend, isn't that close enough?

I'm just shattering a few minds...


Really? I thought it was Pride.

Kinda the same thing. Although "Vanity and Prejudice and Zombies" doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well.


No points for guessing what mine is. >_> <_<


Hanging the toilet paper roll under instead of over is technically not a sin.

Says you. We have a very special level of hell reserved for those people.

http://i.imgur.com/JaxnhkP.gif

[Segev]

Aww... But it's almost the weekend, isn't that close enough?

I'm just shattering a few minds...You can have it back after you finish CORRUPTING those minds. ...and put down Cerebro! Prof. X is tired of you stretching it out.


Kinda the same thing. Although "Vanity and Prejudice and Zombies" doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well.I understand they're making a mini-series or movie out of that.


Says you. We have a very special level of hell reserved for those people.

Ugh, the fields of endless flushing.

Isn't that in England somewhere?

[Red Fel]

Ugh, the fields of endless flushing.

Isn't that in England somewhere?

Thought it was in Queens, NY.

[Mutazoia]

Ah, but what if you fold it into a decorative point?

Replace the toilet paper with sand paper.

[Segev]

Replace the toilet paper with sand paper.

But... how would you notice the difference? The extra durability?