Vorpal sword's resistance ignorance- did I overlook something?

[Feuerphoenix]

Hey guys,

as I read the Vorpal sword the first time, it sounded really great for me, never caring about resistance anymore. But then there was a thought in my head that became louder and louder:

Why does it exist at all? All magic weapons pierce through BPS-resistance anyway. The only monster that is still in the game then, is the demilich. The only thing outside of combat, that came into my mind then, is killing e.g. a mummy lord's heart with this sword.

So tell me guys, did I overlook something, or is this really just a useless ability that let a sword sound great but is very limited in use?

[Fishyninja]

Hey guys,

as I read the formal sword the first time, it sounded really great for me, never caring about resistance anymore. But then there was a thought in my head that became louder and louder:

Why does it exist at all? All magic weapons pierce through BPS-resistance anyway. The only monster that is still in the game then, is the demilich. The only thing outside of combat, that came into my mind then, is killing e.g. a mummy lord's heart with this sword.

So tell me guys, did I overlook something, or is this really just a useless ability that let a sword sound great but is very limited in use?

From the DMG:
Vorpal Sword
You gain a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon. In addition, the weapon ignores resistance to slashing damage.
When you attack a creature that has at least one head with this weapon and roll a 20 on the attack roll, you cut off one of the creature's heads. The creature dies if it can't survive without the lost head. A creature is immune to this effect if it is immune to slashing damage,
doesn't have or need a head, has legendary actions, or rhe DM decides that the creature is too big for its head to be cut off with this weapon. Such a creature instead takes an extra 6d8 slashing damage from the hit.

It can be an insta-kill weapon, or damn near close to it. In regards to the resistances, I am not sure how to answer that.

[JAL_1138]

It would be possible for a monster to be resistant to slashing damage period, regardless of whether the damage is magical in nature or not. The Vorpal sword would still bypass that.

But it's the +3 and the ability that triggers on a nat 20 that really make the weapon good.

[Joe the Rat]

Raging Barbarians are resistant to slashing (and bludgeoning and piercing) damage, period. Swarms are resistant to s/p/b as well. Now there's a visual for you. You swing your vorpal blade at a swarm of insects, and create a visible, lasting cut in their space.

I'm afb, but there may be other creatures that are slashing-resistant.

Bypassing slashing resistance is almost a "ribbon" feature. This is the blade that will cut the heavens.

[Lombra]

Some DMs may rule that as if you can simply cut through anything. Buildings for example.

[Monavic]

It is a very limited ability against the monsters in the MM we have now, but as more source books are released and against npc/home brew creatures it will potentially have more use. I think it was added because its fits the blade perfectly and the game would grow.

[Socratov]

If you want to use the Vorpal sword at its best, be a barbarian 2/fighter 18 for 3 attacks, all made at advantage, so 6 tries in any given turn to roll a 20 (1-0.956=27%, so slightly more then 1 in every 4 turns you will roll a nat 20 and get to instagib).

But wait, if you are a champion you crit on more numbers and if you take GWM, well if you crit, you get a bonus action attack.

so, crit on an 18, you at any given turn you can get an expected number of attackrolls of:

2(3+(1-0.856))= 7.2 attack rolls, that means our chances to roll a nat 20 on any given turn are:
1-0.957.2=31%

Not bad, but we have an ace up our sleeves: Action Surge, which states that:


Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action.

So you can take the attack action again, and the attack action means another 3 attacks!

So, that makes for a whopping

2(3+(1-0.8512))= 13.72 attackrolls (expected value again)

for a whopping

1-0.9513.72=51% to instagib

Yes, that's right, at this point (barb 2/fighter 17) you can be sure to action surge twice on subsequent turns to go-go-gadget-guillotine someone in the first two rounds of combat in about 74% the time.

Happy hunting!

[Lombra]

If you want to use the Vorpal sword at its best, be a barbarian 2/fighter 18 for 3 attacks, all made at advantage, so 6 tries in any given turn to roll a 20 (1-0.956=27%, so slightly more then 1 in every 4 turns you will roll a nat 20 and get to instagib).

But wait, if you are a champion you crit on more numbers and if you take GWM, well if you crit, you get a bonus action attack.

so, crit on an 18, you at any given turn you can get an expected number of attackrolls of:

2(3+(1-0.856))= 7.2 attack rolls, that means our chances to roll a nat 20 on any given turn are:
1-0.957.2=31%

Not bad, but we have an ace up our sleeves: Action Surge, which states that:



So you can take the attack action again, and the attack action means another 3 attacks!

So, that makes for a whopping

2(3+(1-0.8512))= 13.72 attackrolls (expected value again)

for a whopping

1-0.9513.72=51% to instagib

Yes, that's right, at this point (barb 2/fighter 17) you can be sure to action surge twice on subsequent turns to go-go-gadget-guillotine someone in the first two rounds of combat in about 74% the time.

Happy hunting!

Nice level 20 calculations here... but how many dangerous things will die just because they can be decapitated at that point? Will the sword be long enaugh to cut an ancient dragon's neck?

[Socratov]

Nice level 20 calculations here...

thank you!
but how many dangerous things will die just because they can be decapitated at that point? I have no memorisation of the MM right now, but I'm willing to bet anything that is not Troll, Tarrasque, Hydra of undead.
Will the sword be long enaugh to cut an ancient dragon's neck? Yes. Or rather, it does not matter: it's the magic that makes the head fly off. A nat 20 makes one head fly off, guaranteed!

[Joe the Rat]

Yes. Or rather, it does not matter: it's the magic that makes the head fly off. A nat 20 makes one head fly off, guaranteed!
This is why I love the idea of non-sword vorpal weapons. I've had a vorpal club, but now I'm rather enamored with the idea of a vorpal dagger. Poke, head pops off like a rock'em sock'em robot.

[Fishyninja]

Will the sword be long enaugh to cut an ancient dragon's neck?

Think of the sword as acting as pressure wave that occurs from a detonation moving outward, the blade may not be long enough but the the head is still gonna roll.

[Mellack]

"Will the sword be long enaugh to cut an ancient dragon's neck?"
Yes. Or rather, it does not matter: it's the magic that makes the head fly off. A nat 20 makes one head fly off, guaranteed!Or rather, it does not matter: it's the magic that makes the head fly off. A nat 20 makes one head fly off, guaranteed!

It will not work on an Ancient Black Dragon, or even an Adult. All the color dragons of Adult size or bigger get legendary actions, making them immune to the instant lopping of vorpal weapons. They do still get the nice bonus damage.

[Elminster298]

The description for the vorpal sword also specifically says that the ability does not work if the DM rules that the subject is too large for the weapon to decapitate.

[Feuerphoenix]

If you want to use the Vorpal sword at its best, be a barbarian 2/fighter 18 for 3 attacks, all made at advantage, so 6 tries in any given turn to roll a 20 (1-0.956=27%, so slightly more then 1 in every 4 turns you will roll a nat 20 and get to instagib).

But wait, if you are a champion you crit on more numbers and if you take GWM, well if you crit, you get a bonus action attack.

so, crit on an 18, you at any given turn you can get an expected number of attackrolls of:

2(3+(1-0.856))= 7.2 attack rolls, that means our chances to roll a nat 20 on any given turn are:
1-0.957.2=31%

Not bad, but we have an ace up our sleeves: Action Surge, which states that:



So you can take the attack action again, and the attack action means another 3 attacks!

So, that makes for a whopping

2(3+(1-0.8512))= 13.72 attackrolls (expected value again)

for a whopping

1-0.9513.72=51% to instagib

Yes, that's right, at this point (barb 2/fighter 17) you can be sure to action surge twice on subsequent turns to go-go-gadget-guillotine someone in the first two rounds of combat in about 74% the time.

Happy hunting!

This sounds nice in theory, but all your assumptions will fail because of the wording the vorpal sword has: when you roll a 20 (!!!!!)(...). So a champion will not be able to use its ability more often. It is a 5% chance to kill a monster instantly, that is not too large.


PS: Legendary actions do not prevent the effect from happening! So they do not render the monster immune to the effect, except the DM cheats his way out there.

[ApplePen]

What I would like to know is;
If the Weapon gets a natural 20, but the thing is legendary and takes the extra 6d8, and it is not immune to critical hits, is the 6d8 doubled with the weapon dice?

[Mellack]

This sounds nice in theory, but all your assumptions will fail because of the wording the vorpal sword has: when you roll a 20 (!!!!!)(...). So a champion will not be able to use its ability more often. It is a 5% chance to kill a monster instantly, that is not too large.


PS: Legendary actions do not prevent the effect from happening! So they do not render the monster immune to the effect, except the DM cheats his way out there.

The champion gets an extra attack if they roll a critical, so an extra attack means another chance of rolling a 20. The chance per turn increases as there are more attacks, not the chance per attack.

Creatures with legendary actions are specifically called out as one of the things that are immune to the removing of a head. Instead they get increased damage done.

[Erys]

The champion gets an extra attack if they roll a critical, so an extra attack means another chance of rolling a 20. The chance per turn increases as there are more attacks, not the chance per attack.

That is not true at all. I think you are thinking of a feat...


What I would like to know is;
If the Weapon gets a natural 20, but the thing is legendary and takes the extra 6d8, and it is not immune to critical hits, is the 6d8 doubled with the weapon dice?


Yes! (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/30/vorpal-sword-does-the-6d8-get-doubled/)

[Hrugner]

This is why I love the idea of non-sword vorpal weapons. I've had a vorpal club, but now I'm rather enamored with the idea of a vorpal dagger. Poke, head pops off like a rock'em sock'em robot.

I like the vorpal whip. You lash it around their neck and pull it till it just cinches down and the darn thing pops off.

[Mellack]

"The champion gets an extra attack if they roll a critical, so an extra attack means another chance of rolling a 20. The chance per turn increases as there are more attacks, not the chance per attack."
That is not true at all. I think you are thinking of a feat...
[/URL]

Sorry, I phrased that inexactly. The extra attack is from GWM on a critical, and the champion gets the bigger critical range. It was the combination of the two being discussed. The champion is more likley to get a critical, which makes them more likely to get another attack, which then gives them more chances to roll a 20.

As to the doubled bonus damage, yeehaw, that makes for quite a hit.

[Socratov]

It will not work on an Ancient Black Dragon, or even an Adult. All the color dragons of Adult size or bigger get legendary actions, making them immune to the instant lopping of vorpal weapons. They do still get the nice bonus damage.


This sounds nice in theory, but all your assumptions will fail because of the wording the vorpal sword has: when you roll a 20 (!!!!!)(...). So a champion will not be able to use its ability more often. It is a 5% chance to kill a monster instantly, that is not too large.


PS: Legendary actions do not prevent the effect from happening! So they do not render the monster immune to the effect, except the DM cheats his way out there.
Well, actually I thought so as well. But then I started to look more closely and this is what I found:



VORPAL SWORD
Weapon (any sword that deals slashing damage), legendary (requires attunement)
You gain a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon. In addition, the weapon ignores resistance to slashing damage.
When you attack a creature that has at least one head with this weapon and roll a 20 on the attack roll, you
cut off one of the creature's heads. The creature dies
if it can't survive without the lost head. A creature is immune to this effect if it is immune to slashing damage, doesn't have or need a head, has legendary actions, or the DM decides that the creature is too big for its head
to be cut off with this weapon. Such a creature instead takes an extra 6d8 slashing damage from the hit.


So in that case it's a 6d8 which according to a quote below gets doubled (in addition to the critical damage you normally put on a weapon like a gretasword). So basically the creatures that the DM is quite attached to can be given legendary actions and they are fine. Which I think is stupid. For a- no, THE freaking legendary sword out there.

The champion gets an extra attack if they roll a critical, so an extra attack means another chance of rolling a 20. The chance per turn increases as there are more attacks, not the chance per attack.

Creatures with legendary actions are specifically called out as one of the things that are immune to the removing of a head. Instead they get increased damage done.


That is not true at all. I think you are thinking of a feat...




Yes! (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/30/vorpal-sword-does-the-6d8-get-doubled/)


"The champion gets an extra attack if they roll a critical, so an extra attack means another chance of rolling a 20. The chance per turn increases as there are more attacks, not the chance per attack."

Sorry, I phrased that inexactly. The extra attack is from GWM on a critical, and the champion gets the bigger critical range. It was the combination of the two being discussed. The champion is more likley to get a critical, which makes them more likely to get another attack, which then gives them more chances to roll a 20.

As to the doubled bonus damage, yeehaw, that makes for quite a hit.

Well, there is a reason it's considered a super-duper legendary weapon (that and C.S. Lewis'I mean of course Lewis CArrol's poem.)

As for the what I meant, Mellack's got it: the more attacks you get to make (at Reckless advantage), well, the more chances you have rolling a nat 20. GWM gives extra an attack as bonus action so critting (and the increased threat range thereof) is definitely important for your chances of rolling nat 20's.

[ApplePen]

Battlemaster has just as much chance of decapitation, and GwM actually works better for a BM (you can offset the hit penalty with superiority dice) because you get that extra attack again if you fell an opponent.

+10 damage per smack, over multiple smacks per round, adds up to more than a 5% increase.

Wouldn't having a vorpal monk weapon be the optimal choice?

Kind of hard to say no to a possible 4d6+12d8+2d12+15 on one hit from a greatsword though XD

[SharkForce]

Battlemaster has just as much chance of decapitation, and GwM actually works better for a BM (you can offset the hit penalty with superiority dice) because you get that extra attack again if you fell an opponent.

+10 damage per smack, over multiple smacks per round, adds up to more than a 5% increase.

Wouldn't having a vorpal monk weapon be the optimal choice?

Kind of hard to say no to a possible 4d6+12d8+2d12+15 on one hit from a greatsword though XD

nope. it's pretty close, but GWM gives an extra attack on a kill or a crit. champion has a higher crit chance, so more chance of getting a bonus attack, so better chance to vorpal something. but not by much ;)

[Theodoxus]

Yes! (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/07/30/vorpal-sword-does-the-6d8-get-doubled/)

That's the most moronic thing I've ever read. You can only do the 6d8 on a crit. Which would imply the base damage is 3d8. Otherwise, why not just say it does "12d8 (already doubled for the crit.)"

I'd be far more inclined to go with the Sage Advice if the additional damage was an odd number. Say, 5d8... then it's obvious it wasn't already doubled. But 12d8? On top of what's probably 2d6(x2 for crit)+10(GWM)+5(Str)+3(magic)... just call the beastie dead already.

[SharkForce]

That's the most moronic thing I've ever read. You can only do the 6d8 on a crit. Which would imply the base damage is 3d8. Otherwise, why not just say it does "12d8 (already doubled for the crit.)"

I'd be far more inclined to go with the Sage Advice if the additional damage was an odd number. Say, 5d8... then it's obvious it wasn't already doubled. But 12d8? On top of what's probably 2d6(x2 for crit)+10(GWM)+5(Str)+3(magic)... just call the beastie dead already.

unless there are enemies that are immune to crits.

[Socratov]

Battlemaster has just as much chance of decapitation, and GwM actually works better for a BM (you can offset the hit penalty with superiority dice) because you get that extra attack again if you fell an opponent.

+10 damage per smack, over multiple smacks per round, adds up to more than a 5% increase.

Wouldn't having a vorpal monk weapon be the optimal choice?

Kind of hard to say no to a possible 4d6+12d8+2d12+15 on one hit from a greatsword though XD
well, there is this:

nope. it's pretty close, but GWM gives an extra attack on a kill or a crit. champion has a higher crit chance, so more chance of getting a bonus attack, so better chance to vorpal something. but not by much ;)

And the fact that killing blows are dependant on so many things that are outside of the player's control. Besides that, you only get one bonus action per round (yes, it seems even with Action Surge, though the wording IMO is a bit vague on action surging and bonus actions), and wether your crit or kill does not matter, as long as you do either of those things. Since the chance of critting is inherently within the player's grasp (also why barbarian is in there as it can reliably force advantage) it's a much more controlled variable to create a baseline.

Long story short" while the battlemaster is a great fighter archetype and the champion imo a boring one, this is something the champion has an edge at, even if it takes 2 lvls of barbarian and a legendary magic sword to do so.

[Fishyninja]

I like the vorpal whip. You lash it around their neck and pull it till it just cinches down and the darn thing pops off.

Have you seen Hannibal Rising, always remember to add Mayo to your head removal tool

[Hrugner]

Have you seen Hannibal Rising, always remember to add Mayo to your head removal tool

I haven't, but I can appreciate the need for savory lubricant in the head removal process.

[Sicarius Victis]

Wouldn't having a vorpal monk weapon be the optimal choice?

What does that have to do with anything? Monks can only ever make two attacks on their turn with a weapon, all of their extra attacks have to be unarmed. In addition, a Fighter with TWF or GWM/PAM still can make more attacks than a Monk can, unarmed or not.

[DragonSorcererX]

Hey guys,

as I read the Vorpal sword the first time, it sounded really great for me, never caring about resistance anymore. But then there was a thought in my head that became louder and louder:

Why does it exist at all? All magic weapons pierce through BPS-resistance anyway. The only monster that is still in the game then, is the demilich. The only thing outside of combat, that came into my mind then, is killing e.g. a mummy lord's heart with this sword.

So tell me guys, did I overlook something, or is this really just a useless ability that let a sword sound great but is very limited in use?

I think that this is more a fluff than a crunch thing, it is to say that the vorpal sword can cut literally anything that isn't immune to magical slashing damage, even a foretress with walls made of adamantine (c'mon it's fantasy :smalltongue:, it's obvious that exists an entire complex made of this rare and magical metal)...

[furby076]

Vorpal Quarterstaff. You bash the head in, vs cutting it off from sword

[Malifice]

It bypasses blade ward, Feind warlock resistance and Barbarian rage.

There are a few resistances that magic weapons dont bypass (Barbarian rage being the most common).

[Knaight]

Well, there is a reason it's considered a super-duper legendary weapon (that and C.S. Lewis' poem.)


Lewis Carroll's poem. C.S. Lewis had nothing to do with it.

[Socratov]

Lewis Carroll's poem. C.S. Lewis had nothing to do with it.

Damnit! I always mix the two names up! I will amend immediately...

[Fishyninja]

Vorpal Quarterstaff. You bash the head in, vs cutting it off from sword

My Monk would love this!

[furby076]

My Monk would love this!

I'm not a fan of restricting magic to specific equipment. Doing so makes me think that spellcasters, who craft magic items, lack any sort of imagination :)

If you want your helm of brilliance to be Ruby Slippers of Brilliance, then knock yourself out Dorothy :)

[Fishyninja]

I'm not a fan of restricting magic to specific equipment. Doing so makes me think that spellcasters, who craft magic items, lack any sort of imagination :)

If you want your helm of brilliance to be Ruby Slippers of Brilliance, then knock yourself out Dorothy :)

*Clicks heels 3 times, Rolls d20, Nat 1.....THE TERRASQUE APPEARS*

[furby076]

*Clicks heels 3 times, Rolls d20, Nat 1.....THE TERRASQUE APPEARS*

Dorothy should have had a Tarrasque as a pet. I think he would qualify as CR 1/4