Multiplatform Elder Scrolls XII: Twelve Worlds of Creation [Archive]

LibraryOgre

2017-01-03, 05:01 PM

Welcome, one and all, to the twelfth thread for us to discuss, debate, and rag on our favorite series of Bethesda RPGs!

An explanation of the title. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Annotated_Anuad)

Previous threads:

Who's excited for Skyrim? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202414)
Skyrim II: A Dragon A Day Keeps The Draugr At Bay. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222730)
Skyrim III: Get rich selling protective knee gear! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12323418#post12323418)
Skyrim IV: Oblivion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228914)
Skyrim V: Skyrim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?243186-Skyrim-V-Skyrim&p=13225784#post13225784)
Skyrim Thread VI: Dov Riders, AWAY! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262708)
The Elder Scrolls VII: Do you believe in mod? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298127)
The Elder Scrolls: By the VIII Divines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329913-The-Elder-Scrolls-By-the-VIII-Divines)
It's the IX Divines You milk drinker! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370764-The-Elder-Scrolls-It-s-the-IX-Divines-you-milk-drinkers)
The Elder Scrolls X: Thalmor Or Less (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416193-The-Elder-Scrolls-X-Thalmor-or-Less)
Wouldn't Want to Be Elsweyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492511-The-Elder-Scrolls-XI-Wouldn-t-Want-To-Be-Elsweyr)

Handy things For Skyrim:
Official forums (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/forum/117-v-skyrim/)
Perk calculator (http://skyrimcalculator.com/)
Some things you need to know about Skyrim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12328428#post12328428)
The Wiki (http://uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page)

Have at it!

Triaxx

2017-01-03, 07:50 PM

I am slightly annoyed that my preferred alternate start seems to make Skyrim crash. Random Alternate Start, for those interested. It even has custom gear, but when you uninstall it, it removes those.

The Great Wyrm

2017-01-04, 09:48 AM

Mmm, that new thread smell.

Is the crashing a known problem? Can you give us some more information about your computer?

LibraryOgre

2017-01-04, 11:22 AM

Wife just told me that the internet is working at our new house. I'm going to fire up my old desktop, since my laptop **** the bed. I will be able to play things soon!

Triaxx

2017-01-04, 12:36 PM

Ah, well... There's the problem. I've got a mod from 2012, instead of the reborn one which is the author updating from the previous one and fixing a bunch of issues. Figures I'd have the wrong one. :D

gooddragon1

2017-01-06, 03:28 AM

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/ScreenShotJarl_zpsvo1w9jge.png

She's really skilled with magic if she can recline that far out in her throne.

Also, the Silver-Blood Inn is really high tech. They've even got the Kleppr to turn lights on and off.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-06, 06:43 AM

Since we're officially in this thread now, am I the only one who thinks that the twelve worlds of Creation were twelve previous kalpas? If I am alone in that, what do you think they were?

Wife just told me that the internet is working at our new house. I'm going to fire up my old desktop, since my laptop **** the bed. I will be able to play things soon!

Congrats! :smallsmile:

DigoDragon

2017-01-06, 07:01 AM

She's really skilled with magic if she can recline that far out in her throne.

What the... well that's a new one. o.o

VoxRationis

2017-01-06, 08:30 AM

My girlfriend got me the special edition of Skyrim for Christmas, and we've both been playing it. I've been exploring the Dawnguard campaign, since I've already done most of the original game, excepting the Dark Brotherhood, because I hate the Dark Brotherhood. My thoughts on this include: that Serana is a fun character and all, and I like having a follower with actual lines of dialogue, but it made little sense for my Dawnguard-aligned character to not just kill her immediately (or even to unseal her tomb, since I had no way of knowing that that wasn't a ritual circle which would destroy the world); that Sunfire is a wonderful spell and should have been in the base game; that Dawnbreaker is a must-have for the Dawnguard campaign, and I love every moment of using it (I tend to shout things like "Behold the purity of Meridia's light!" at the TV); and that the Keepers in the Soul Cairn (the furthest I have progressed thus far) are not as tough as they were cracked up to be. Serana tanked using Vampiric Drain while I tore them apart with arrow fire.

factotum

2017-01-07, 12:55 AM

that Serana is a fun character and all, and I like having a follower with actual lines of dialogue, but it made little sense for my Dawnguard-aligned character to not just kill her immediately (or even to unseal her tomb, since I had no way of knowing that that wasn't a ritual circle which would destroy the world)

Your character not having any obvious justification for following the plot is a general Bethsoft issue. I mean, think about it--as far as we know you've recently arrived in Skyrim at the beginning of the game, and, in order, you get captured by the Imperials for no readily apparent reason, laid down on a chopping block and nearly decapitated, and then attacked by a freakin' *dragon*. Anyone with an ounce of sense at this point would be high-tailing it out of Skyrim and not looking back!

At least the Dragonborn plotline gives you the justification that you're trying to track down the person who's tried to kill you...

gooddragon1

2017-01-07, 01:23 AM

I almost wish I didn't instakill things. I'd change the boss music for the dragon encounters to things like:

Keep On Loving You - REO Speedwagon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgT_mJXbvCQ)
Arms Wide Open - Creed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA93StaYDFk)
Rikki Don't Lose That Number - Steely Dan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfZWp-hGCdA)

Spore

2017-01-07, 04:34 AM

Your character not having any obvious justification for following the plot is a general Bethsoft issue. I mean, think about it--as far as we know you've recently arrived in Skyrim at the beginning of the game, and, in order, you get captured by the Imperials for no readily apparent reason, laid down on a chopping block and nearly decapitated, and then attacked by a freakin' *dragon*. Anyone with an ounce of sense at this point would be high-tailing it out of Skyrim and not looking back!

At least the Dragonborn plotline gives you the justification that you're trying to track down the person who's tried to kill you...

I think the games assume that you want to be the hero and not just another citizen of Skyrim. As for Serana: I had those Vampiricide ideas with my Redguard Vampire Hunter as well but in the Dawnguard story just makes sense. Sure, you are aligning yourself with a creature of the night who could betray you while you sleep (because you cannot simply walk around for half a year flat because you deem the rested bonus unnecessary). But there are enough reasons to keep her around.

She has a genuine desire to kill her father who put her in this miserable state. She wants to avenge her mother. Due to the one companion limit you cannot have someone watch her while you sleep but if you time the Dawnguard jobs correctly you don't have to sleep with her by your side. Or you could go the dedicated route of doing the Companions first and contracting Lycanthropy. I hear making a Werewolf angry is NOT healthy for any vampire.

factotum

2017-01-07, 08:09 AM

None of those reasons come to light until you've known her for a while, though. Remember, in this plotline you're a vampire hunter--it's your job, probably even your *calling*, to hunt down and kill vampires. Why don't you stake Serana when you open her crypt for the first time? Why is your first reaction to actually follow along with her plan to return her to her father, rather than at least taking her back to Fort Dawnguard for interrogation? Why, when you get back from your very first mission for the Dawnguard having released an ancient vampire (carrying an Elder Scroll, no less) does Istvan not gut you on the spot, or at the very least kick you out of the Order for not following their edicts?

It's lazy plotting to force your character along a path that makes little sense purely on the assumption that you'll go through with it in order to see the DLC content--Nuka-World from Fallout 4 suffers from the same issue, since your only choice if you want to see all the DLC has to offer is to throw your lot in with the Nuka-World raiders, regardless of whether that makes sense for your character or not.

Triaxx

2017-01-07, 09:06 AM

The first time, I actually attacked her the moment she appeared, because I assumed it was a boss fight. Like those Draugr coffins where you can smash them before they're fully awake.

LibraryOgre

2017-01-07, 09:57 AM

So, thinking about the thread of Dawnguard.... what would happen if you DID kill her outright? Like, would the story move forward at all?

Aeson

2017-01-07, 10:05 AM

One could argue that Serana is using the TES version of vampiric domination on you and the members of the Dawnguard. I don't think it's a very good justification for why things play out the way they do, mind you, but it would provide some justification and isn't completely without basis in the background material within the games or in how player character vampires work.

DigoDragon

2017-01-07, 10:47 AM

So, thinking about the thread of Dawnguard.... what would happen if you DID kill her outright? Like, would the story move forward at all?

It can, you just need to get the information about Harkon's plot from someone else. Maybe interrogate a few vampires who know of what's going on.

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-07, 11:36 AM

The first time, I actually attacked her the moment she appeared, because I assumed it was a boss fight. Like those Draugr coffins where you can smash them before they're fully awake.

I did that too. I mean really, you've been explicitly told whatever is in there has been there for a long time undisturbed and when you get the thing open, the contents are still fresh. And then they start to move.

So, thinking about the thread of Dawnguard.... what would happen if you DID kill her outright? Like, would the story move forward at all?

CAN you kill her? I've never been able to, though I understand there are mods to allow it.

I've seen it posited that DB doesn't kill Serana because the very first thing she does upon opening her eyes is some kind of vampire Jedi mind trick. Good a justification as any, I guess. It surprises me that any other members of the Dawnguard don't try to stake her on sight, but then again maybe she's supposed to be powerful enough to do the whammy instinctively and before her vampire identity can be ascertained.

Triaxx

2017-01-07, 12:05 PM

I don't know though, because when you come back, Isran explicitly mentions your vampire friend.

LibraryOgre

2017-01-07, 01:42 PM

CAN you kill her? I've never been able to, though I understand there are mods to allow it.

To my knowledge, no. I was just talking about ripping off her plot armor and what would happen if a DM tried to pull that in Tabletop.

Triaxx

2017-01-07, 01:53 PM

If they got caught at it, we always made them pay for the snacks the following session.

factotum

2017-01-07, 03:19 PM

It can, you just need to get the information about Harkon's plot from someone else. Maybe interrogate a few vampires who know of what's going on.

The problem is you'd be stuck when it comes time to enter the Soul Cairn, because it relies on your having someone of Serana's mother's blood to get in there--not to mention that Serana's mother isn't likely to co-operate with a vampire hunter who killed her daughter. I would personally be happy if they just gave you the option of taking Serana back to Fort Dawnguard rather than killing her, because it would make some sort of sense for a newly-pledged vampire hunter to want to check back with the bosses to find out what to do when they find an ancient vampire carrying an Elder Scroll.

Triaxx

2017-01-07, 03:43 PM

Except killing Serana means Harkon can't get in either.

Divayth Fyr

2017-01-07, 04:58 PM

The problem is you'd be stuck when it comes time to enter the Soul Cairn, because it relies on your having someone of Serana's mother's blood to get in there--not to mention that Serana's mother isn't likely to co-operate with a vampire hunter who killed her daughter. I would personally be happy if they just gave you the option of taking Serana back to Fort Dawnguard rather than killing her, because it would make some sort of sense for a newly-pledged vampire hunter to want to check back with the bosses to find out what to do when they find an ancient vampire carrying an Elder Scroll.
That would simply require writing in a character able to get you to the Cairn - ie. a reclusive necromancer. In a "Serana was killed on sight" scenario using the portal in the Castle makes little sense anyway.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-07, 05:11 PM

Ways we could continue the plot if Serana was killable, let's see...

We would then have the Elder Scroll in our possession, to start with. Presumably we could take that back to Isran, or one of the Vigilants of Stendarr, and 'let's find a Moth Priest to read this thing and find out why the vampires want it' is a logical step after that.*

Then we need to get to Soul Cairn. Divayth covered this already; the Ideal Masters never ONLY made pacts with Valerica, we just need to find someone else to get us there. We have the College of Winterhold, possibly Falion in Morthal, maybe Sybille Stentor? Lots of people who could plausibly have knowledge of Soul Cairn and ways to get there.

Then we need to get the other Scroll from Valerica. Several of you have brought up that she wouldn't help us because we killed her daughter, but VALERICA doesn't necessarily have any way of knowing that, and we don't necessarily know this is the mother of the vampire we killed to get the first scroll. So we just need to convince her to hand it over—a really high Speech check or beat down Durnehviir. Not even a big change from what's in there already.

If Valerica does know about Serana—through divination spells, or it just comes up in conversation ('My vampire daughter was guarding the other Scroll.' 'You mean the one I killed in that crypt?' 'WHY YOU--!') then we need to bargain with the Ideal Masters to help them get Valerica and help us get the Scroll.

The only remaining roadblock I can think of is finding Castle Volkihar, but IIRC by that point they were attacking the Dawnguard fortress openly, so just track them backwards and kill Harkon. Plot over.

And now I want to play Skyrim. :smalltongue: If any of you lot who were thinking up tabletop systems for it starts a PbP game, let me know, okay?

*Incidentally the Moth Priest blinding himself on the Dawnguard branch stinks of plot contrivance too. Vampire-side makes a little more sense; being mind-controlled could put a damper on the self-preservation instinct, but he's got no excuse for being stupid Dawnguard-side.

Divayth Fyr

2017-01-07, 05:58 PM

*Incidentally the Moth Priest blinding himself on the Dawnguard branch stinks of plot contrivance too. Vampire-side makes a little more sense; being mind-controlled could put a damper on the self-preservation instinct, but he's got no excuse for being stupid Dawnguard-side.
Eh, at that point the vampires had largely wiped out the Vigilants, and are openly attacking cities. I could see him taking the risk for the "greater good".

Spore

2017-01-07, 08:35 PM

Damn, with this theorycrafting and the new Fudgemuppet remastered Monster Hunter build (which is very close to my Redguard Vampire Hunter) makes me want to play triple. But I already got a Fallout 4 playthrough as well as Pokemon Sun going on, all with plans to play Doom, Fallout 3, Fallout NV and Deus Ex Mankind Divided someday...

veti

2017-01-08, 06:31 PM

Is it possible to complete the Dawnguard line without even knowing about the Soul Cairn?

As-written, obviously not. But conceptually, it might be. The key informational tidbits are (1) the location of Auriel's Bow, and (2) what to do with it once you've got it. Make both of those available in some other way (you can stumble into Darkfall Cave by pure chance, and when Isran sees the bow he might get Ideas all by himself without any other prompting).

So yeah, you could manage a Serana-free version of Dawnguard. It would require a little extra scripting - basically, Serana-free versions of certain cutscenes, most notably those with Arch-Curate Vyrthur, and some alternative dialogue for Isran - but content-wise, that's about all. As a bonus, it'd be considerably shorter than the full version.

As another bonus, it wouldn't require you to join the Mage's College (which you have to do to retrieve the other Elder Scroll, which you then don't even use in the Dawnguard quest, but you can't progress unless you have both).

Triaxx

2017-01-08, 07:27 PM

Technically you only need to gain entrance to the college, which you can do by being Dragonborn. Though you can also fly in with a Dragon, and the game seems totally fine with that. True it's a bit tricky to get the bugger to land inside but eh.

Inarius

2017-01-08, 10:16 PM

Looks like SKSE 64bit won't be available until mid march at the earliest, seems like the worst case estimate they gave before the SE launched is going to be it. Puts it smack in the middle of the next mass effect launch too so I doub't I'll be getting around to the SE until mid summer. Which is fine I guess, it'll take time for people waiting on SKSE to get their mods in order or for other people to pick up the slack.

factotum

2017-01-09, 02:41 AM

I thought SKSE was 64-bit out of the door?

Sharoth

2017-01-09, 02:46 AM

New thread time!

Rynjin

2017-01-09, 02:57 AM

I finally bit the bullet and moved to SE since I got the Skyrim itch again. I was pleased that most of my staple mods (Ordinator works since PerMa isn't available, Apocalypse, Immersive Armors, Better Vampires even though I'm running Enai Saion's vampire mod ATM because it seems the closest to a continuation of Belua Sanguinare we'll ever get, and Alternate Start) were available. Upon launching I was ASTOUNDED at how much better and smoother the SE ran. Skyrim CHUGS on my laptop even on low, but the SE looks and runs miles better.

I'm running Open Cities, a mod that makes NPCs look better, and an immersive sound mod without any noticeable dip in performance too (this is especially mind boggling with Open Cities which made the game nigh unplayable when I tried it for OG Skyrim). The mod selection is smaller and the lack of SkyUI is a major annoyance but all in all the Special Edition i a home run in my book. We'll see how I feel in about a week, if memory issues start showing up and causing random crashes.

Triaxx

2017-01-09, 07:10 AM

SkyUI version 2.2 works perfectly well with SE, though you'll have a message about no SKSE in the menu screen.

VoxRationis

2017-01-09, 03:16 PM

Continuing my playthrough of the Dawnguard campaign, I have successfully traveled to the Ancestor Glade and read the Elder Scroll. The aftermath, what with getting attacked by a full-on vampire hit squad, makes me bothered that there's no option to have a chat with Serana about operational security. Harkon and company knowing that I'd be in that particular spot at that particular time smacks of more than coincidence. After all, they have neither an Elder Scroll nor anyone they suspect can read the darn things in the attack group, so they weren't just there on separate business. They know I rescued a Moth Priest, so they should think I can get my Scroll-reading from him, rather than needing to track down a bunch of Lepidoptera.* And they certainly didn't just happen to say "the Dragonborn might be going here, let's head them off" at that particular half-hour interval. No, their arrival means either they have some method of tracking me or Serana, or that someone is actively tipping them off, and Serana is the most likely culprit.

*Incidentally, I was horrified to learn that I could catch the Ancestor Moths out of the air and pick off their wings (I did that by accident once). I feel like there should be some supernatural punishment for that.

Triaxx

2017-01-09, 03:24 PM

DigoDragon

2017-01-09, 03:31 PM

No, their arrival means either they have some method of tracking me or Serana, or that someone is actively tipping them off, and Serana is the most likely culprit.

If they had a way of tracking Serana, wouldn't they have found where she was stored away much sooner? I can't remember if her "tomb" was stated to be warded in any way or not.

Rynjin

2017-01-09, 03:42 PM

The biggest issue with Dawnguard is it is written with the assumption that you will be a vampire. The section f the story where you are a part of the Dawnguard is an afterthought lazily tacked on at the start so you know they exist (since they are by and large inconsequential if you join the vampires), and given barely a thought as to how it actually works if you stick with them, giving you multiple opportunities to abandon ship and be a vampire with all the sweet new abilities they coded in.

The Harkon's Court storyline has its own share of contrivances, but none as egregious or frequent as the Dawnguard side.

VoxRationis

2017-01-09, 03:54 PM

Balmas

2017-01-09, 04:18 PM

I always assumed they were tracking the scrolls. You've got three of them on you by that point, which should be fairly easy to find magically.

That said, even a stealthy Dragonborn isn't terribly subtle. Trailing them via the piles of corpses they leave behind should be easy even for a totally inept tracker.

Something I found out on my last playthrough was that you can give the Elder Scrolls to the librarian in the College of Winterhold if you don't want to lug them around with you.

Of course, that means that they're merely under the lock and key of the most jealous librarian in Skyrim, rather than in the pouches of the most dangerous person in Skyrim. :smalltongue:

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-09, 04:52 PM

The biggest issue with Dawnguard is it is written with the assumption that you will be a vampire.
Is it? I have literally never wanted to nor actually played as a vampire in Skyrim. Angered Harkon a few times by having the audacity to be a filthy werewolf daring to bask in his grandiose egotistical presence, but never said "bite me."

Y'know im sure there's a better way to write that, but eh.

DigoDragon

2017-01-09, 04:53 PM

Of course, that means that they're merely under the lock and key of the most jealous librarian in Skyrim, rather than in the pouches of the most dangerous person in Skyrim. :smalltongue:

True, but isn't there some lore that the scrolls can't be contained if they don't want to be? Like, you wake up one morning and it's simply gone from the lock box?

Shoreward

2017-01-09, 05:37 PM

Upon launching I was ASTOUNDED at how much better and smoother the SE ran. Skyrim CHUGS on my laptop even on low, but the SE looks and runs miles better.

Yeah, I'm legitimately impressed with this. Bethesda's engines usually chug like a freight train loaded with other freight trains at the best of times, but whatever they did with the SE vastly improved it. I can live with the lack of a few of my "essential" mods.

I've been treating SE as a "slightly cleaner Original Skyrim" while treating my original Skyrim folder as my "Modded Skyrim" one, though I could easily swap the two around considering how much better they run on the tweaked engine.

The downside I have noticed is that sounds in SE have been audibly compressed, particularly the sound of picking up coins. On the bright side, this too is easily fixed by mods. Thanks, community!

Rynjin

2017-01-09, 05:52 PM

Is it? I have literally never wanted to nor actually played as a vampire in Skyrim. Angered Harkon a few times by having the audacity to be a filthy werewolf daring to bask in his grandiose egotistical presence, but never said "bite me."

Y'know im sure there's a better way to write that, but eh.

Yes. Look at the way the plot is laid out and it looks pretty clear.

Step 1: Join the Dawnguard. Stumbling block, bad writing. Dawnguard advantage (sort of, it's bad writing all in all).

Step 2: Free a vampire, willingly help her home. Given two choices: Become a vampire (and not just a vampire, a SUPER DUPER vampire in a once in a lifetime only chance), or be banished. Vampire advantage.

Step 3: Retrieve first Elder Scroll. Largely faction neutral, only difference is who you fight to get it.
--Step 3.5: Probably get infected with Sanguinare Vampiris. Have to get it cured before you can continue on the Dawnguard side. Adds an extra bit of hassle to your playthrough. Vampire advantage.

Step 4: Go to Soul Cairn. Either be a vampire or take hefty penalties to all your stats for the duration of your stay. Vampire advantage.

Note that at this point you have had two story driven points to become a vampire, and a variable number of incidental gameplay moments to do so.

Step 5: Retrieve Auriel's Bow. If you are a vampire the bow is a gamechanger. You can use it to blot out the sun (negating your weakness to sunlight for about 12 in game hours). As a Dawnguard it makes a pretty crappy explosion effect. It deals the extra damage to undead regardless or this would potentially be neutral (since undead are so prevalent) but as-is: Vampire advantage.

Let's see the toys you get to play with:

Vampire: Vampire Lord form (perks for your vampire form, incidental immunity to falling damage, AoE health drain, easier vampire feeding). An item that lets your Vampiric Drain power heal Magicka as well. Aforementioned de facto negation of major vampire weakness. Crappy but cool looking armor, access to unique useful shop equipment.

Dawnguard: Crappy but cool looking armor, crossbows (that suck), access to unique and useful shop spells.

Advantage: Vampire.

If Dawnguard didn't still have best girl Serana as a companion it wouldn't even be worth existing.

DigoDragon

2017-01-09, 06:06 PM

crossbows (that suck)

They do have a very satisfying sound though. But yeah, other than the audio, I never stuck with the crossbow. A cute novelty and that's about it. Shame it doesn't fire stakes or something interesting.

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-09, 06:23 PM

I love crossbows.

But okay I can see how people would gravitate toward the vampire thing. Except people such as myself who have no interest in it. I mean, I was pretty oblivious to the bias until it got spelled out like that. Even with the point by point, honestly some of those things don't strike me as plus points.

Then again I've loved werewolves forever and still do, while I think I got my fill of vampires in the early 1990s.

Seriously, though, I love crossbows.

Shoreward

2017-01-09, 06:33 PM

There's something about the feel of a crossbow that bows just don't bring, and I wish they got more attention in Skyrim. I suppose it's because I can imagine that my character's arms aren't as ripped as they come, unlike with bows. It feels more like a weapon someone could pick up and figure out quickly, then let the crank do most of the heavy lifting. I used crossbows for my street-thief character almost without exception.

I also like them because it's the first time since Morrowind that we've seen a more advanced weapon. We somehow lost spears, crossbows, and throwing weapons between Morrowind and Oblivion. The only spears we've seen since then belong to the Rieklings, who have apparently mastered shrinking technology. The reappearance of the crossbow, especially in the hands of an organised monster-hunting group, just feels right to me. Very military.

DigoDragon

2017-01-09, 06:39 PM

Thinking about it, perhaps the advantage of a crossbow is that you can probably get it fairly low level, which would make it stronger than bows accessible at the time (I was high level and working with Daedric weapons). Reloads a bit slower though.

Triaxx

2017-01-09, 06:46 PM

I have always found the Crossbow to be a better option for ranged attack for Heavy Armor users than a bow.

Shoreward

2017-01-09, 06:48 PM

Yeah, that about does it. It also does bonus damage against undead, if I recall, which I think Draugr count as.

The reload speed never mattered much to me, since I don't go for ranged unless I'm adding stealth to the mix. It's a bit louder than a bow, but with high enough stealth it hardly matters. Some of the upgraded crossbows can carry you for a few more levels, too.

Since I don't tend to play much as the "epic levels" of Skyrim (I rarely crest the peak of 50), I never got to the point where a crossbow couldn't fill in for any other weapon as far as damage went.

Triaxx

2017-01-09, 07:31 PM

The biggest advantage is the armor piercing. Being able to cut through it when fighting heavily armored troops.

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-09, 09:29 PM

I like that the default position for crossbows is "loaded". Having a ready bolt doesn't slow walking or running speed that I've noticed and I don't have to hold down the mouse button while positioning for the shot. Plus "ka-chunk" is a pretty satisfying thing to hear. I'm a significantly better long range sniper with a bow to be sure, but shooting things and clubbing them with a crossbow is very satisfying. My biggest problem with them is the apparent lack of availability until committing to starting the Dawnguard quest line.

Incidentally, I don't recall the Skyrim crossbows having winches. The animation I recall is pulling the string back with the left hand.

Shoreward

2017-01-09, 10:07 PM

Incidentally, I don't recall the Skyrim crossbows having winches. The animation I recall is pulling the string back with the left hand.

I'm not sure what the mechanism is called, but you definitely pull back a sort of "crank" from the top to the bottom. You can see it in this image here (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/7/79/Crossbow.png/revision/latest?cb=20120814142400).

Edit: Aha! The wiki page the image comes from calls it a "Goat's Foot Lever", used to pull back the string.

Triaxx

2017-01-09, 10:25 PM

SkyRe tweaked the availability of Crossbows by adding them to the leveled list. Which naturally meant EVERYONE had one. Mostly just guards, but still. If you want, I could create a custom mod for it. I remember how to do that much.

Temotei

2017-01-09, 10:37 PM

Crossbows are also easier to bash with after attacking than with bows (bashing right after shooting does full ranged attack damage).

Rynjin

2017-01-09, 10:43 PM

But okay I can see how people would gravitate toward the vampire thing. Except people such as myself who have no interest in it. I mean, I was pretty oblivious to the bias until it got spelled out like that. Even with the point by point, honestly some of those things don't strike me as plus points.

Then again I've loved werewolves forever and still do, while I think I got my fill of vampires in the early 1990s.

I'd love it if werewolves got the same love as vampires since they're cooler but the problem is werewolves A.) Have no benefits outside of werewolf form (and even their overhaul mods are nowhere near as comprehensive as the vampire mods out there) and B.) Gain all their power when transformed.

B.) is where all the strikes come in since that means I can't use magic (two strikes in itself), am forced to play in third person (god why), and basically can't level up if I use it. Plus the damage it deals falls way behind using weapons so while combats are no threat (every time you power attack you knock people over so you're just smashing them in a corner while they can't fight back) they also take FOREVER (because you do no damage).

I also like them because it's the first time since Morrowind that we've seen a more advanced weapon. We somehow lost spears, crossbows, and throwing weapons between Morrowind and Oblivion. The only spears we've seen since then belong to the Rieklings, who have apparently mastered shrinking technology. The reappearance of the crossbow, especially in the hands of an organised monster-hunting group, just feels right to me. Very military.

Apparently spears just "couldn't be done" in Skyrim. I guess an animation fr poking instead of slashing was too much work. There's a mod for throwing knives that ain't bad. Pairs well with ZA WARUDO mod, bringing us neatly back to the vampire discussion.

Thinking about it, perhaps the advantage of a crossbow is that you can probably get it fairly low level, which would make it stronger than bows accessible at the time (I was high level and working with Daedric weapons). Reloads a bit slower though.

True. They're about double the strength of any bow you'd expect to find at level 10. They reload waaaay slower though you can bypass that by unequipping and re-equipping it.

I use crossbows on characters that aren't dedicated archers since I don't have to draw the bow but they're exclusively for potshots at dragons and making a shot before I close the distance.

I think they'd be perfect if they could be wielded one-handed with a sword or shield or spell in the other hand.

Shoreward

2017-01-09, 10:54 PM

Apparently spears just "couldn't be done" in Skyrim. I guess an animation fr poking instead of slashing was too much work. There's a mod for throwing knives that ain't bad. Pairs well with ZA WARUDO mod, bringing us neatly back to the vampire discussion.

But how many seconds will that let me move in the stopped time? I can't stand proud beside my nordic brethren unless I can go at least ten, and the destiny of my dragonborn blood won't be satisfied until I've turned the enemy into a bloody stream on my quest to stop the end of the world.

Rynjin

2017-01-09, 11:07 PM

But how many seconds will that let me move in the stopped time? I can't stand proud beside my nordic brethren unless I can go at least ten, and the destiny of my dragonborn blood won't be satisfied until I've turned the enemy into a bloody stream on my quest to stop the end of the world.

First: Excellent Jojokes.

Second: Depends on the mod. Some are just sound replacers for Bend Time, which lasts either 8, 12, or 16 seconds. Some are infinite so you have plenty of time to thank your friends, slowly saunter to your enemy, beat them up, and then pretend it was only 2 seconds when you undo the power.

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-09, 11:32 PM

I'm not sure what the mechanism is called, but you definitely pull back a sort of "crank" from the top to the bottom. You can see it in this image here (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/7/79/Crossbow.png/revision/latest?cb=20120814142400).

Edit: Aha! The wiki page the image comes from calls it a "Goat's Foot Lever", used to pull back the string.

Shows how amazing my powers of perception aren't. That makes lots more sense than what I remembered.

SkyRe tweaked the availability of Crossbows by adding them to the leveled list. Which naturally meant EVERYONE had one. Mostly just guards, but still. If you want, I could create a custom mod for it. I remember how to do that much.

I'm pretty content with my mod situation these days (i.e. They're all working together and I haven't had corrupted saves in a good long while). I still use the one that alters Breezehome's alchemy and enchanting tables. Did I ever thank you for that? I generally just use the console for items, since often it's a very specific character idea I'm working with and hitting the tilde and typing in a command is a one-off thing versus hoping all my mods stay compatible and functional after any change In the lineup. For a while I was spending twice as much time trouble shooting mod conflicts as I was playing.

Feytalist

2017-01-10, 03:29 AM

Mando Knight

2017-01-10, 04:17 AM

I'd love it if werewolves got the same love as vampires since they're cooler but the problem is werewolves A.) Have no benefits outside of werewolf form (and even their overhaul mods are nowhere near as comprehensive as the vampire mods out there) and B.) Gain all their power when transformed.

B.) is where all the strikes come in since that means I can't use magic (two strikes in itself), am forced to play in third person (god why), and basically can't level up if I use it. Plus the damage it deals falls way behind using weapons so while combats are no threat (every time you power attack you knock people over so you're just smashing them in a corner while they can't fight back) they also take FOREVER (because you do no damage).

The overhaul mods usually boost your damage in wolf form and offer some perks that might improve your not-a-wolf stats (usually health, stamina, and fisticuffs).

Disease immunity. It's hardly gamebreaking, but it is pretty damn useful, even if just in an anti-frustration kind of way.

I'm generally a werewolf, even if I don't necessarily play *as* a werewolf. I like that you can just hulk out and go to town whenever you want. There's something nice and cathartic about bounding around the countryside like a manic puppy. The only annoyance is that, if you've been messing up bandits and eating their hearts, it takes forever to wear off. It would have been nice to have an off switch.

Moonlight Tales gives you an off-switch. The SE version requires you to munch on a bunch of hearts to get to it first, though.

Triaxx

2017-01-10, 06:57 AM

You did, though I never finished working on a version for the other houses. Should probably do it up for SE. Same with my other two.

DigoDragon

2017-01-10, 09:34 AM

Crossbows are also easier to bash with after attacking than with bows (bashing right after shooting does full ranged attack damage).

I had perfected a good timing with a "stunlock" technique using my bow bash and then shooting an arrow at half-strength. Which at the time (I was level 70-something), was still plenty of power to take most enemies down quickly. It's funny to use that and then get the message that my block skill went up. ^^;

I'm generally a werewolf, even if I don't necessarily play *as* a werewolf. I like that you can just hulk out and go to town whenever you want. There's something nice and cathartic about bounding around the countryside like a manic puppy. The only annoyance is that, if you've been messing up bandits and eating their hearts, it takes forever to wear off. It would have been nice to have an off switch.

I would play a werewolf more if it came with an option to turn into a full wolf with stealth bonuses. That might be fun to play around with--sneak up to a target, then go hybrid behind them.

Triaxx

2017-01-10, 11:50 AM

I always liked to be a Werewolf while playing a stealthy thief/brotherhood type. That way if I got in trouble, I could wolf out and chew my way out of the situation.

LibraryOgre

2017-01-10, 12:19 PM

Disease immunity. It's hardly gamebreaking, but it is pretty damn useful, even if just in an anti-frustration kind of way.

I'm generally a werewolf, even if I don't necessarily play *as* a werewolf. I like that you can just hulk out and go to town whenever you want. There's something nice and cathartic about bounding around the countryside like a manic puppy. The only annoyance is that, if you've been messing up bandits and eating their hearts, it takes forever to wear off. It would have been nice to have an off switch.

It would also have been nice if your Companion followers would also hulk out occasionally, but I rarely play with them anyway so that's a minor one.

I like to use werewolf form specifically against bandits. That swath of bandit camps near Whiterun? I tend to rampage across the countryside, eating bandits, through that.

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-10, 02:42 PM

I like to use werewolf form specifically against bandits. That swath of bandit camps near Whiterun? I tend to rampage across the countryside, eating bandits, through that.

Great fun indeed. Although I have ended up doing that inside a fort and there was one enemy behind a locked door who wasn't about to open it on his own. Then again there WAS a bloodthirsty rampaging werewolf right outside. Who says the AI is stupid? Because there was a hostile nearby and therefore I couldn't wait/rest, and because I had gorged on approximately ten hearts to fuel the blood rage, and because I could not interact with the door in any meaningful way while in crinos form, it took a really long time to get that door open. So instead of having his heart ripped out of his chest by a slathering maw, that bandit got a greatsword through the sternum from a buck-naked Nord. Well, Skyrim-naked anyway. It was an amusing kill cam.

Rynjin

2017-01-10, 03:21 PM

Today's update supposedly increased performance, so I'm interested to see by how much. I'm going to try bumping up the graphics.

veti

2017-01-10, 08:09 PM

What puts me off playing as a werewolf is the "best blood keeps you from restful sleep" message.

Not that I care (much) about the resting bonus, it's just that I find the thought of "not being able to rest well" extremely - depressing. I just don't want to play that character.

I shake the werewolf curse as quickly as I decently can.

Mando Knight

2017-01-10, 08:22 PM

The_Jackal

2017-01-10, 09:02 PM

Triaxx

2017-01-10, 09:22 PM

Necromage is totally silly. I don't believe it should work like that, but that's just me, I know some people love it.

Werewolves are just so much cooler.

Aeson

2017-01-10, 10:17 PM

Werewolves are just so much cooler.
Shouldn't the vampires be cooler given that they're, you know, (un)dead, whereas werewolves are live endothermic organisms?

(Granted, since they dropped the 'three days in the grave' and 'becoming a vampire clears your record' things post-Daggerfall, it's not exactly clear that the vampires of the newer TES games actually are dead.)

Shoreward

2017-01-10, 10:32 PM

(Granted, since they dropped the 'three days in the grave' and 'becoming a vampire clears your record' things post-Daggerfall, it's not exactly clear that the vampires of the newer TES games actually are dead.)

There are certainly different strains of vampirism in the Elder Scrolls universe, so I wouldn't be surprised if Daggerfall has its own that was never named. Some appear to be ordinary (if supernaturally empowered) contact diseases, while others are brought on by a sort of spell effect like in Skyrim. They even have different names!

Then you get into the complexities of the different vampire clans and their rituals...

The_Jackal

2017-01-11, 12:30 AM

Shouldn't the vampires be cooler given that they're, you know, (un)dead, whereas werewolves are live endothermic organisms?

EXO-thermic. And yes, Vampires are cooler, but also more hackneyed.

Rynjin

2017-01-11, 01:57 AM

How quickly we forget that before the vampire crazy, and before the zombie craze, there was the werewolf craze.

Werewolves are just as hackneyed as vampires, they've just been allowed to rest since the time American Werewolf in London, The Howling, and Wolfen all came out the same year, and many other werewolf movies (like Teen Wolf, for example) came out around the same time too.

factotum

2017-01-11, 03:28 AM

(Granted, since they dropped the 'three days in the grave' and 'becoming a vampire clears your record' things post-Daggerfall, it's not exactly clear that the vampires of the newer TES games actually are dead.)

Vampirism in Skyrim is curable, so I think it's a racing certainty that vampires in that game are not actually undead, since there doesn't seem to be any resurrection spells in the setting.

veti

2017-01-11, 06:03 AM

This mod (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/66867/?) should change that.

Nah. Something doesn't sit right about mods whose sole purpose is to remove a restriction/limitation that's part of the game lore. In general, "my character isn't sick enough" is not a complaint I've ever had with Skyrim.

Vampirism in Skyrim is curable, so I think it's a racing certainty that vampires in that game are not actually undead, since there doesn't seem to be any resurrection spells in the setting.

For vampires to be "not actually undead", there would have to be a strict technical definition of precisely what "undead" means in this setting.

They're affected by perks and spells whose description says "affects undead" - heck, spells whose sole purpose is to affect undead and only undead - so yes, they are "actually undead" as defined in the ES universe.

factotum

2017-01-11, 07:22 AM

Triaxx

2017-01-11, 07:46 AM

Perhaps it's like Lycanthropy, or Durkon's Vamping where it's actually a possessing spirit. And so it can be 'cured' by driving out the spirit.

Divayth Fyr

2017-01-11, 07:59 AM

and that doesn't seem to be possible in the Elder Scrolls setting
Didn't Molag Bal's quests in both Oblivion and Skyrim involve resurrection (of the player/priest of Boethiah)? And from what I recall, bringing back the prince from the dead was a plot point in Redguard (it didn't go as planned, but it suggests the act was thought to be possible).

DigoDragon

2017-01-11, 09:28 AM

Didn't Molag Bal's quests in both Oblivion and Skyrim involve resurrection (of the player/priest of Boethiah)?

In Skyrim, yes. I remember you have to beat the priest dead and Molag will resurrect him so you can do it again to break his will.

Bleh, that quest left me feeling guilty (not a bad quest, just... yikes). I think I ended up conveniently "losing" that mace afterwards. :smalltongue:

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-11, 09:56 AM

In Skyrim, yes. I remember you have to beat the priest dead and Molag will resurrect him so you can do it again to break his will.

Bleh, that quest left me feeling guilty (not a bad quest, just... yikes). I think I ended up conveniently "losing" that mace afterwards. :smalltongue:

I found that Daedric quest horrifying. At first. Then I made a mace wielding monster worth the express intention of doing that quest and getting the freaky mace because of the random dialogue npcs would spit on seeing it. And wouldn't you know it, not One Time since getting that bloody mace has anyone ever said the line.

Leading me to, resurrection seems to be a very exceptional thing in ES that has cropped up with vanishing rarity. Molag Bal only brought that guy back to keep punishing him, and was present right at the moment of death to do it. Like he had to be there and ready the instant it happened before the spirit of the deceased could flee to his afterlife with Boethia. Maybe he was only mostly dead.

LibraryOgre

2017-01-11, 10:15 AM

EXO-thermic. And yes, Vampires are cooler, but also more hackneyed.

Werewolves are endothermic; they generate their own internal temperature.

It gets confusing because chemistry has the exact opposite definition... an endothermic reaction absorbs heat. An endothermic creature creates heat.

Balmas

2017-01-11, 11:29 AM

Sorry, but being a overgrown flea-hotel doesn't hold a candle to 25% more effect and 50% more duration on the Slow Time shout.

Necromage (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Vampirism#Notes) is basically a 'do everything better' perk, and there are some really sick builds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7vL1B90ptQ) that take advantage of it.

Also, Twilight notwithstanding, Vampires are the James Bond of the monster pantheon, while werewolves are the Ted Nugent. I know which one I'd pick.

Note, though, that if you're using the unofficial Skyrim patch, this no longer applies. Personally, I applaud this, as it seems pretty clear to me that Necromage boosting beneficial effects on vampire player characters wasn't the intended use.

Divayth Fyr

2017-01-11, 12:02 PM

Note, though, that if you're using the unofficial Skyrim patch, this no longer applies. Personally, I applaud this, as it seems pretty clear to me that Necromage boosting beneficial effects on vampire player characters wasn't the intended use.
Going with the perk's description (All spells are more effective against undead), having it work on the player makes sense - I'd say this is one of the cases where the patch goes beyond what it should (fixing bugs) do in favour of "balance" or the vision of its authors...

Rynjin

2017-01-11, 01:06 PM

Going with the perk's description (All spells are more effective against undead), having it work on the player makes sense - I'd say this is one of the cases where the patch goes beyond what it should (fixing bugs) do in favour of "balance" or the vision of its authors...

It seems pretty clear it was a bug considering effects that aren't spells were also boosted. Dragon Shouts like Slow Time and Turn Ethereal are affected, potions are affected, magical enchantments on armor are affected, Standing Stones are affected...and most tellingly, perks and racial bonuses are affected. Dual Flurry gives you a better speed boost as a vampire, and Steady Hand actually stops functioning since the slowed time lasts so long that it affects how far the arrows travel (which is about 5 feet).

Necromage simply boosts everything that shows up in the "Effects" tab of the magic menu. That is not likely to be the intended use.

DigoDragon

2017-01-11, 01:14 PM

I found that Daedric quest horrifying. At first. Then I made a mace wielding monster worth the express intention of doing that quest and getting the freaky mace because of the random dialogue npcs would spit on seeing it. And wouldn't you know it, not One Time since getting that bloody mace has anyone ever said the line.

Daedric princes are spiteful entities. :x

'course who am I to call them out, considering I had that one priest killed to be a meal in Namira's quest, and then I took the prince's follower up to get sacrificed for Boethiah's quest... only to then toss the mail away over the cliff before walking halfway back to do the Ill Met by Moonlight quest where I help Sinding fight off the hit squad and accidentally kill him with a stray arrow to gain both quest rewards. After the fights over. By like, four minutes.

But it's okay, I'm the dragonborn, right? :smallbiggrin:

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-11, 02:59 PM

Daedric princes are spiteful entities. :x

'course who am I to call them out, considering I had that one priest killed to be a meal in Namira's quest, and then I took the prince's follower up to get sacrificed for Boethiah's quest... only to then toss the mail away over the cliff before walking halfway back to do the Ill Met by Moonlight quest where I help Sinding fight off the hit squad and accidentally kill him with a stray arrow to gain both quest rewards. After the fights over. By like, four minutes.

But it's okay, I'm the dragonborn, right? :smallbiggrin:

'Course it's okay, that one npc said so. You know the one, "you have the soul of a dragon within you, it is in your nature to dominate and destroy." I'm paraphrasing a bit.

You'd think with my fascination with werewolves I'd be okay with Namira's quest. But I guess it's more acceptable to me to tear out and devour a still-beating heart than it is to devour someone's Right buttock.

Then again, heart meat just tastes a whole lot better than rump roast. (Pork, I'm talking about pork. Mostly. )

veti

2017-01-11, 03:51 PM

Divayth Fyr

2017-01-11, 04:21 PM

Restoration is the pro-Life school, it includes spells that are very much anti-undead, and it makes sense that its perks should show the same bias.

Until Dawnguard made it the school that can also Heal Undead.

Aeson

2017-01-11, 05:00 PM

Until Dawnguard made it the school that can also Heal Undead.
Which means basically nothing with regards to whether or not a perk whose description is "all spells are more effective against undead" should cause spells which are beneficial to the target to be more powerful when the target is undead. "All spells are more effective against undead" means that offensive spells should cause more harm to undead targets than to non-undead targets and defensive spells should ward off harm more effectively when the harm comes from an undead source than when the harm comes from a non-undead source. "All spells are more effective against undead" does not tell us anything about how the perk affects spells which are beneficial to the target when those spells are cast on undead because things which are beneficial to the target are not used against the target.

When you say that you use one thing against another thing, you mean that you are using the first thing to protect yourself or others from, ward off, or harm the second thing. You do not protect yourself from, ward off, or harm undead by targeting undead with spells which are beneficial to the target. If the perk had been intended to cause all spells to have more potent effects upon undead than upon other targets, the wording of the perk description should have been something more along the lines of "all spells are more effective when used on undead" or "all spells are more effective against or on undead." The description as it stands only applies spells which are used in opposition to the undead, i.e. offensive spells should have more powerful effects on undead than on non-undead targets and defensive spells should provide greater protection from harm caused by undead assailants than from harm caused by non-undead assailants.

Edit: Take, for example, medicine. If you are using medicine appropriately, it is never correct to say that you are using medicine against yourself or another person, as the meaning of the statement "I am using medicine against another person" is "I am using medicine on a person with the intent of causing harm to that person." Assuming you are using medicine correctly, it could be appropriate to say "I am using medicine on another person" as this carries no implications regarding the purposes for which you are using medicine, or "I am using medicine against an infection/ailment" as this carries the implication that the intent behind the use of the medicine is to protect someone from or ward off the harm that the infection/ailment could inflict if left untreated.

veti

2017-01-11, 05:44 PM

Well, there's clearly a contradiction there. If "undead" means "corpse kept alive by magical means", and vampires can be cured of vampirism, then we require a means to bring a corpse back to life as part of that cure--and that doesn't seem to be possible in the Elder Scrolls setting. If "undead" doesn't mean that, then why is every undead creature in Skyrim apart from vampires some sort of animated corpse or spirit?

Right, so I would conclude the definition is faulty. "Undead", in this universe at least, doesn't mean that.

One alternative definition would be "one whose life has been extended indefinitely" (hence "undying", and therefore by logical extension "undead"). Of course that might include the Nerevarine (can't recall exactly what Divayth Fyr says, does corprus make you effectively immortal or merely very-long-lived?) But it excludes creatures such as dragons and daedra, who are (as far as we know) born immortal.

We know that necromancers in this world often spend a lot of effort on extending their own lives. This definition would imply that at some point they will also begin to blur the line between "alive" and "undead", which seems fitting.

The_Jackal

2017-01-11, 06:01 PM

Werewolves are endothermic; they generate their own internal temperature.

It gets confusing because chemistry has the exact opposite definition... an endothermic reaction absorbs heat. An endothermic creature creates heat.

Wow. So an endothermic animal can be exothermic? IMO, Bio needs to get their act together.

Note, though, that if you're using the unofficial Skyrim patch, this no longer applies. Personally, I applaud this, as it seems pretty clear to me that Necromage boosting beneficial effects on vampire player characters wasn't the intended use.

Yes, that's why it's the Unofficial patch. Let's just say I have creative differences with the maintainers of that mod.

It seems pretty clear it was a bug considering effects that aren't spells were also boosted. Dragon Shouts like Slow Time and Turn Ethereal are affected, potions are affected, magical enchantments on armor are affected, Standing Stones are affected...and most tellingly, perks and racial bonuses are affected. Dual Flurry gives you a better speed boost as a vampire, and Steady Hand actually stops functioning since the slowed time lasts so long that it affects how far the arrows travel (which is about 5 feet).

Necromage simply boosts everything that shows up in the "Effects" tab of the magic menu. That is not likely to be the intended use.

And shouts aren't magic effects? If they wanted to fix only the perk//racial interactions, I have no problem with that, but the way I see it, enchantments, potions, standing stones, etc., can all be considered magic effects. I'm also not wild about them 'fixing' getting free training from followers.

"all spells are more effective against undead"

So instead of focusing on whether the game effect is fun, we're tooltip grammar police. Like I said, creative differences.

druid91

2017-01-11, 06:49 PM

Which means basically nothing with regards to whether or not a perk whose description is "all spells are more effective against undead" should cause spells which are beneficial to the target to be more powerful when the target is undead. "All spells are more effective against undead" means that offensive spells should cause more harm to undead targets than to non-undead targets and defensive spells should ward off harm more effectively when the harm comes from an undead source than when the harm comes from a non-undead source. "All spells are more effective against undead" does not tell us anything about how the perk affects spells which are beneficial to the target when those spells are cast on undead because things which are beneficial to the target are not used against the target.

When you say that you use one thing against another thing, you mean that you are using the first thing to protect yourself or others from, ward off, or harm the second thing. You do not protect yourself from, ward off, or harm undead by targeting undead with spells which are beneficial to the target. If the perk had been intended to cause all spells to have more potent effects upon undead than upon other targets, the wording of the perk description should have been something more along the lines of "all spells are more effective when used on undead" or "all spells are more effective against or on undead." The description as it stands only applies spells which are used in opposition to the undead, i.e. offensive spells should have more powerful effects on undead than on non-undead targets and defensive spells should provide greater protection from harm caused by undead assailants than from harm caused by non-undead assailants.

Edit: Take, for example, medicine. If you are using medicine appropriately, it is never correct to say that you are using medicine against yourself or another person, as the meaning of the statement "I am using medicine against another person" is "I am using medicine on a person with the intent of causing harm to that person." Assuming you are using medicine correctly, it could be appropriate to say "I am using medicine on another person" as this carries no implications regarding the purposes for which you are using medicine, or "I am using medicine against an infection/ailment" as this carries the implication that the intent behind the use of the medicine is to protect someone from or ward off the harm that the infection/ailment could inflict if left untreated.

Against does not solely mean in opposition to. And, Against does not mean 'to cause harm' it means, in opposition to.

It also means, 4. in or into physical contact with (something), typically so as to be supported by or collide with it.

An odd usage to be sure, but it checks out. The magic is being used ON the undead, and is so, in physical contact with it.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-11, 07:53 PM

Disease immunity. It's hardly gamebreaking, but it is pretty damn useful, even if just in an anti-frustration kind of way.

This is all I really used it for.

'course who am I to call them out, considering I had that one priest killed to be a meal in Namira's quest, and then I took the prince's follower up to get sacrificed for Boethiah's quest... only to then toss the mail away over the cliff before walking halfway back to do the Ill Met by Moonlight quest where I help Sinding fight off the hit squad and accidentally kill him with a stray arrow to gain both quest rewards. After the fights over. By like, four minutes.

But it's okay, I'm the dragonborn, right? :smallbiggrin:

I'm pretty sure that it is in fact, okay. (http://www.prequeladventure.com/2013/09/katia-3/)

One alternative definition would be "one whose life has been extended indefinitely" (hence "undying", and therefore by logical extension "undead"). Of course that might include the Nerevarine (can't recall exactly what Divayth Fyr says, does corprus make you effectively immortal or merely very-long-lived?)

IIRC it keeps you from aging.

Rynjin

2017-01-11, 10:18 PM

So instead of focusing on whether the game effect is fun, we're tooltip grammar police. Like I said, creative differences.

Some people find a balanced, bug free game to be fun.

Mind you I use Ordinator which adds the effect back in as an intended perk, but it also has a few extra prerequisites.

Spore

2017-01-11, 10:58 PM

Wow. So an endothermic animal can be exothermic? IMO, Bio needs to get their act together.

Please stop it or the chemist in my brain gets an aneurysm (and the small biologist next to him is jumping up and down): Endothermic processes (i.e. chemical reactions) ABSORB warmth from the surrounding area, exothermic processes give away excess heat to the surrounding area. The word you are looking for is cold-blooded (ectotherm) and warm-blooded (pokilotherm). And while humanoids (with a possible exception of Argonians) loose warmth, the mistake is not as grave (yes, undead puns!) as with Vampires who might be evil, but they are not "suck in all the warmth from the surrounding area" evil.

Please do not start on thermodynamics of Absorb Health or other Destruction spells now. On a different note: At least I know now why I love to be Argonian when I play a Vampire. Some lizard biting people and staying cold-blooded isn't as alien and def. helps my immersion when convincing myself why a character with yellow glowing eyes is not immediately shunned by EVERYONE.

Triaxx

2017-01-11, 11:57 PM

I had actually forgotten just how much can be had running around in Heavy armor, walloping people with a mace. Though getting Stunlock and Two-shotted? Yeah, that I never missed out on.

Balmas

2017-01-12, 12:03 AM

Yes, that's why it's the Unofficial patch. Let's just say I have creative differences with the maintainers of that mod.

Hey, different strokes for different folks. That's the wonderful thing about Skyrim; you get to mod it how you want.

And shouts aren't magic effects? If they wanted to fix only the perk//racial interactions, I have no problem with that, but the way I see it, enchantments, potions, standing stones, etc., can all be considered magic effects. I'm also not wild about them 'fixing' getting free training from followers.

So instead of focusing on whether the game effect is fun, we're tooltip grammar police. Like I said, creative differences.

Personally, I feel that Necromage was not intended to be used as a beneficial effect for Vampire PCs because in order to interpret "All spells are more effective against undead," you'd have to change out "spells" for "every beneficial effect in the game."

Spore

2017-01-12, 02:42 AM

Let's not ignore the fact that every detrimental effect is also increased.

VoxRationis

2017-01-12, 08:30 AM

So apparently I'm doing a Let's Play...
I've finished my playthrough of the Dawnguard campaign and moved on to Dragonborn without making a new character to explore the vampire campaign. My thoughts on the last stages of the Dawnguard campaign:

Can you just make a prophecy? Could I prophesy that "when the Dragonborn walks to Solitude, all will shower them with free magical items?"
My planned expedition to the Aetherium Forge will have to be delayed, because after the Forgotten Vale, I have had it with Falmer;
Perhaps I was expecting much, but I kind of expected the assault on Castle Volikhar to go belly-up, on account of my not doing much to improve the Dawnguard—they still have cobwebs everywhere. But this apparently is not Mass Effect 2.

Having journeyed to Solstheim, I am struck by huge waves of nostalgia! I didn't even play Morrowind that much, on account of it crashing regularly and being ridiculously deadly for the first level, as well as having a plot that isn't exactly engaging at the beginning ("meet up with this guy, then go do odd jobs"). But I find myself happy to hear the old music, see the guards in their bonemold armor (although apparently they've stopped smoking since Morrowind, judging by their voices), and marvel at all the funny Dunmer architecture. I even think the guards here have a different walking animation, with more of the old Morrowind swagger. I don't miss the cliff racers, though. I'm also a little poorly-equipped to fight much of what I find here, because most of my chief damage-dealing measures are anti-undead or fire-based, and everything here is on fire already. Strangely, Ash Wraiths don't seem to be affected by my anti-undead spells and equipment.
I explored for a while, mostly trying to find settlements rather than more Ash Wraith-filled dungeons, and came across a mead hall filled with things called "Rieklings." They approached me openly and in a friendly manner, which my journal seems to think is unusual, even though I've never seen or heard of these creatures before. I did a couple trivial tasks for them before they got to the meat of their request to me—a request to assist them in wiping out the group of Nords who originally inhabited their home. After the trail of blood I had left through the Falmer cities of the Forgotten Vale, I had been hoping for peaceful coexistence with this group of not-quite-goblins, and the idea of helping them slaughter a human encampment disgusted me, to the point where I just left.
I then stumbled upon the encampment of the people these "Rieklings" had displaced! They naturally asked for my aid in slaughtering the tribe of short blue people and reclaiming their mead hall, a task I was mildly more amenable to, but some of their dialogue threw me off. At one point they referred to the Rieklings as pests, and the group's self-description of their lifestyle, being a community based around drinking and fighting, seemed a bit like a glorified bandit camp. It's possible that these Rieklings had suffered perennial attacks from this group of Nords that disdained them so, and had banded together to end the cause of their torment. Of course, I had no proof of this, and didn't want to kill people based on needless speculation, so I just left both camps until I could get further evidence.
Then I returned to Raven Rock, and while exploring the town, stumbled upon a mine whose main inhabitant asked me to explore a mine for his ancestor, who died under mysterious circumstances which the East Empire Company covered up. I explored the mine, only to find another Nordic crypt full of Draugr. With Dawnbreaker and the Bow of Auriel, as well as Serana and summoned Flame Atronachs, even the Deathlords fell reasonably easily. Inside I find a magic greatsword with a damage bonus that only applies to power attacks. I find that underwhelming, since I fight with sword and shield and would like bonuses that apply to all attacks, but I'm keeping the sword for uniqueness value. I'll put it up on a rack in my manor house. I solve the "puzzle" door, progress to fight the Dragon Priest at the end of the dungeon. The priest dies easily, on account of my having Auriel's Bow and the priest failing the normal Dragon Priest shuffle-float which would throw off my aim. The mask, which buffs shock spells, I find potentially useful and take.
In the area beyond, on the way out of the dungeon, I find a pedestal with a "Black Book." It seems important, so I take a look... and get attacked by tentacles and sucked into another plane. Great. Well, I'm not immediately dead, and still have my equipment and spells, so let's see where this goes.
I am greeted by a voiceover from Hermaeus Mora, who introduces himself as though he hadn't had a conversation with me earlier, says there's knowledge tucked inside this plane for "the clever," and mentions that I can read the book again to leave. Bolstered by that knowledge, I press onward in the hopes of getting some interesting buff. The plane was short, the combat uninteresting (though I lost a lot of crossbow bolts on Seekers that ended up unlootable), and the reward... all right. Not quite what I expected from Hermaeus Mora's domain—seems to me like he wouldn't care about friendly fire—but Serana does get in the way of my attacks pretty often. I scoff at Mora's boast that this was supposed to be a task for cleverness, since I mostly just killed my way to the end, and exit to Mundus.
Serana doesn't seem to have any response to the fact that I was just pulled bodily into a book and then reappeared a few minutes later, and we press onward out of the barrow. Amusingly, the secret exit to the dungeon comes into the back of a bandit hideout, which I burst forth from like a fledgling wasp eating its way out of a caterpillar. In retrospect, the architecture of that barrow made little sense. All the secret doors and levers, all the pathways and tests the ancient Nords liked to build, were backwards, only making sense from the perspective of one trying to progress from an entrance that didn't exist when the barrow was built.
I return to Raven Rock and give the miner the news. He goes on about how he'll reveal this and make the East Empire Company "pay," which seems odd. They discovered something dangerous in the mine and shut it down quietly to prevent further deaths—they didn't sell people into slavery or put skooma in their grain shipments or anything. I'm not sure why he's mad at them.

DigoDragon

2017-01-12, 09:14 AM

I was asked by a local group to GM them a campaign. After some thought, I decided on running something loosely using Skyrim as the setting. With a fellow GMer online, we pieced together some basic mechanics for Word Walls, Dragon Shouts, statistics for local critters, etc. The last bit was how to introduce the PCs to the world because none of them have played an Elders Scrolls game before (not completely surprised, but, still interesting odds) so I'd have to teach them the setting if they make characters that are native to Tamriel.

Well, this group isn't one to like a huge data dump. They prefer going in blind. So how do I get the PCs into a foreign setting where their characters should know the world?

The idea came to me last night-- the Live Another Life mod.

My idea is the players can fluff their character backgrounds from whatever D&D or generic fantasy world they wish. They each wake up in a prison cell with no knowledge how they got there. Were they arrested for a crime? Are they dead and in purgatory? I'll leave that one hanging for a bit of mystery. Each player interacts with the Mara statue in the cell and are told they will be given a chance to start a new life where they are needed (I'll give them some of the mod options as a starting choice). Then they get whisked away to the campaign start near each other and can learn together as a group.

I think this can work with a little tweaking.

factotum

2017-01-12, 11:29 AM

Balmas

2017-01-12, 11:37 AM

DigoDragon

2017-01-12, 12:11 PM

You know it's an Elder Scrolls game when you wake up as a prisoner. :smalltongue:

Exactly! :D

Races were easy to gather together. I'm not going to worry too much about getting the ES racial mechanics "right" for the campaign. D&D has like... a gajillion elves in official sources alone to pick from, so I'll look at the flavor more just to keep the number of headaches I'll get down from these players.

Aeson

2017-01-12, 02:08 PM

Against does not solely mean in opposition to. And, Against does not mean 'to cause harm' it means, in opposition to.

It also means, 4. in or into physical contact with (something), typically so as to be supported by or collide with it.

An odd usage to be sure, but it checks out. The magic is being used ON the undead, and is so, in physical contact with it.
By your line of reasoning, I can mean "I am paying those cannons which are over by the wall to perform some task" when I say "I am employing the cannons against the wall." Technically, this is not incorrect - the words do carry those meanings and I'm not doing anything grammatically incorrect - but it is still wrong because when those words are put together like that they do not carry those meanings. Context is important. "Something is more effective against something else" does not mean "when you put something in contact with something else it becomes better" in standard English.

Also, by your line of reasoning, if Bobby Bandit and Danny Draugr are simultaneously affected by the same spell and the spell's caster has this perk, then the spell should have a greater effect on Bobby Bandit than it would if Bobby Bandit had been the only one affected by the spell, because the spell is in contact with Danny Draugr at the time that it's affecting Bobby Bandit and is more effective when touching undead.

Rynjin

2017-01-12, 02:10 PM

Exactly! :D

Races were easy to gather together. I'm not going to worry too much about getting the ES racial mechanics "right" for the campaign. D&D has like... a gajillion elves in official sources alone to pick from, so I'll look at the flavor more just to keep the number of headaches I'll get down from these players.

Someone did a conversion already that's pretty good. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ogc1?Races-of-the-Elder-Scrolls#1)

Not too hard to understand. May need to explain to any player that picks a Wood Elf that they're probably a cannibal though.

veti

2017-01-12, 03:36 PM

Let's not ignore the fact that every detrimental effect is also increased.

What detrimental effects do you generally use on yourself?

Personally, I can't think of any. So yes, let's ignore that.

veti

2017-01-12, 03:48 PM

So apparently I'm doing a Let's Play...

Can you just make a prophecy? Could I prophesy that "when the Dragonborn walks to Solitude, all will shower them with free magical items?"
My planned expedition to the Aetherium Forge will have to be delayed, because after the Forgotten Vale, I have had it with Falmer;
Perhaps I was expecting much, but I kind of expected the assault on Castle Volikhar to go belly-up, on account of my not doing much to improve the Dawnguard—they still have cobwebs everywhere. But this apparently is not Mass Effect 2.

1. Yes, anyone can make a prophecy. "Getting anyone else to take it seriously", though, that's a whole different kettle of ball games. Prophecies don't change reality, except in so far as people learn about them and act differently because of it.

I found the Aetherium Forge quest simultaneously exciting and disappointing. Exciting because it's a bit different from the usual "go to place X and beat up hordes of the enemy-du-jour", and I really liked the ghost chick, whatsername, as well as her bow. Disappointing because the final reward is kinda "is that what all this was about?"

The attack on the castle goes as planned because at this point Bethesda clearly thought they'd created "enough" content to justify the price tag, and therefore there's no point spinning things out even further. And personally, I think they're right.

VoxRationis, there's a really nice house you can get in Riven Rock if you follow a certain questline (hint: try speaking with the town high-ups), and I reckon it's easily the best house in the game--loads of places to put armour and weapons, complete alchemy, enchanting and smithing setups, the works.

And even better: it's free!

Actually, better than free, because you pick up some nice loot in the quest that earns it. And then you don't have to part with any of that. It's like having your own ebony mine.

gooddragon1

2017-01-12, 03:54 PM

1. Yes, anyone can make a prophecy. "Getting anyone else to take it seriously", though, that's a whole different kettle of ball games. Prophecies don't change reality, except in so far as people learn about them and act differently because of it.

I found the Aetherium Forge quest simultaneously exciting and disappointing. Exciting because it's a bit different from the usual "go to place X and beat up hordes of the enemy-du-jour", and I really liked the ghost chick, whatsername, as well as her bow. Disappointing because the final reward is kinda "is that what all this was about?"

The attack on the castle goes as planned because at this point Bethesda clearly thought they'd created "enough" content to justify the price tag, and therefore there's no point spinning things out even further. And personally, I think they're right.

And even better: it's free!

Actually, better than free, because you pick up some nice loot in the quest that earns it. And then you don't have to part with any of that. It's like having your own ebony mine.

Not quite. You have to spend 250 gold per time you want to visit it and 250 gold to get back. Unless you have an extradimensional door built in that links to some place on mainland skyrim (I would personally put it right near the entrance to dragonsreach in whiterun).

factotum

2017-01-12, 04:03 PM

Not quite. You have to spend 250 gold per time you want to visit it and 250 gold to get back.

Not while you're already on Solstheim you don't. :smallsmile:

veti

2017-01-12, 05:02 PM

Not quite. You have to spend 250 gold per time you want to visit it and 250 gold to get back. Unless you have an extradimensional door built in that links to some place on mainland skyrim (I would personally put it right near the entrance to dragonsreach in whiterun).

The "extradimensional door" is called "fast travel", unless you've disabled that.

Spore

2017-01-12, 05:12 PM

What detrimental effects do you generally use on yourself?

Personally, I can't think of any. So yes, let's ignore that.

Weren't the vulnerabilities also increased?

Rynjin

2017-01-12, 05:16 PM

The "extradimensional door" is called "fast travel", unless you've disabled that.

I don't think you can fast travel between Skyrim and Solstheim, can you?

Far as I know you need to travel to the ferry in Windhelm every time.

Triaxx

2017-01-12, 05:28 PM

Once you've been there, there's a map marker in the upper-right corner of the screen that will drop you on the docks in Solstheim.

Detrimental effects on yourself? Mostly none, unless you're using home-made potions, which can occasionally have side effects if 'poison' is also mixed as part of it.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-12, 05:31 PM

You know it's an Elder Scrolls game when you wake up as a prisoner. :smalltongue:

It's not an Elder Scrolls game UNLESS you wake up as a prisoner. :smallwink:

Which, given how easy it is to steal things by accident, really shouldn't surprise anyone.

I don't think you can fast travel between Skyrim and Solstheim, can you?

You can; I've done it.

I think I was making poor Harath swim the whole way there and back every time...

VoxRationis

2017-01-12, 07:34 PM

VoxRationis, there's a really nice house you can get in Riven Rock if you follow a certain questline (hint: try speaking with the town high-ups), and I reckon it's easily the best house in the game--loads of places to put armour and weapons, complete alchemy, enchanting and smithing setups, the works.

Yeah, I found that out on my own an hour before reading this thread again. I took one look at the basement and figured that I'd end up with the place—no other building besides a Dragonborn residence has a smithy, alchemical lab, and arcane enchanter in such close proximity, to say nothing of empty weapon racks and mannequins.

The problem is that I've already sunk a ton of time and gold into Lakeview Manor. Its weapon racks are getting pretty full, but I don't really want to split my spoils between two houses, because then I have to remember which house has something. Heck, I have enough problems when I put different objects in different containers in the same house. Plus, I appreciate the setting of Lakeview much better than Raven Rock.

Triaxx

2017-01-12, 09:09 PM

It's pretty simple to whip up a custom door way mod to go from the Manor in Solstheim to your other house. Just make sure you use an empty spot in a cell that 'exists' in the house you've built. Doesn't even have to be a 'door' persay. You can set up any sort of activator as a door I believe. A magical portal thing isn't that hard to do. (I believe you can even use things that aren't normally available, but I haven't done that in a while.)

Balmas

2017-01-12, 11:00 PM

Yeah, I found that out on my own an hour before reading this thread again. I took one look at the basement and figured that I'd end up with the place—no other building besides a Dragonborn residence has a smithy, alchemical lab, and arcane enchanter in such close proximity, to say nothing of empty weapon racks and mannequins.

The problem is that I've already sunk a ton of time and gold into Lakeview Manor. Its weapon racks are getting pretty full, but I don't really want to split my spoils between two houses, because then I have to remember which house has something. Heck, I have enough problems when I put different objects in different containers in the same house. Plus, I appreciate the setting of Lakeview much better than Raven Rock.

Might I point you to Functional Homes (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/22940/?)? It adds most of the amenities you could want to every house in the game. This includes things like crafting stations and a wall of chests that you can store things in. Don't worry about leaving things in one house and looking for them in another, as the inventories for the storage systems are shared between houses. (In addition, you'll find the Luggage, a chest that appears in the inns when you rent a room for the night, again with a shared inventory.) The house in Raven Rock even has a series of pedestals where you can store your Black Books so that they don't clog your inventory.

Shoreward

2017-01-13, 12:44 AM

I think one of the difficulties with the house in Raven Rock is that by the time you find it, you're usually high enough level that you already own a functional house in a more convenient spot. You can get Breezehome lickety-split if you give the main quest even token attention.

It also doesn't help that Solstheim's idea of a friendly welcome is a mouthful of dust and three Ash Spawn throwing a corpse party. Probably turns people off the whole "chasing down the cultists" idea for a while. Personally, I took it as a challenge to throw an even bigger party, only mine had more axes and frantic, primal shrieking. I call it my "war face".

Mando Knight

2017-01-13, 01:27 AM

I think one of the difficulties with the house in Raven Rock is that by the time you find it, you're usually high enough level that you already own a functional house in a more convenient spot. You can get Breezehome lickety-split if you give the main quest even token attention.

I like Elianora's version (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/49347/?) of Breezehome TNF, which adds all the crafting stations that the house normally lacks (including all the smithing stations, so you don't have to go next door to Warmaiden's to get that part done), plus more decor (a lot of which is locked down so you can't disturb it).

factotum

2017-01-13, 02:31 AM

It's not an Elder Scrolls game UNLESS you wake up as a prisoner. :smallwink:

That means Daggerfall wasn't technically an Elder Scrolls game, because while you were trapped at the beginning of the game, you weren't a prisoner per se, just stranded in a cave after your ship sank... :smallsmile:

Temotei

2017-01-13, 02:59 AM

Detrimental effects on yourself? Mostly none, unless you're using home-made potions, which can occasionally have side effects if 'poison' is also mixed as part of it.

Which can help if you're a Blizzard caster and you want lower frost resistance.

Triaxx

2017-01-13, 08:19 AM

Or, I could just have a set of Gear that doesn't resist frost.

Also, official announcement of Skyrim for the Switch. Which would be the third copy I'd own, but still cool.

Temotei

2017-01-13, 10:18 PM

Or, I could just have a set of Gear that doesn't resist frost.

Yeah, but you can't get negative resistance by not doing anything.

Triaxx

2017-01-13, 11:00 PM

Ah, but I can have no resistance without gear. Negative resistances are cheating.

Divayth Fyr

2017-01-14, 09:01 AM

Ah, but I can have no resistance without gear. Negative resistances are cheating.
The Apprentice Stone is cheating? ;)

Triaxx

2017-01-14, 11:38 AM

No, because you're not going to be able to repeatedly stack that with itself.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-15, 12:38 PM

Since every region we've adventured in so far has had something horrible happen to it post-game (Oblivion - Empire collapses, Morrowind - Red Year, Daggerfall - Warp in the West), what terrible fate do you lot believe will befall Skyrim?

I'm thinking the Falmer will rise up and kill everybody; the Thalmor wiping Skyrim off the map is likely, but too obvious.

Rynjin

2017-01-15, 12:44 PM

Is The Warp really a "terrible fate"? It's just an in-game description for the confusion caused by that game not having a "canon" sequence of events.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-15, 01:00 PM

Is The Warp really a "terrible fate"? It's just an in-game description for the confusion caused by that game not having a "canon" sequence of events.

I gather lots of people died and the gods themselves had to get involved to fix the timeline, so yes, I'm counting it.

Rynjin

2017-01-15, 01:22 PM

Eh, maybe.

Regardless I'm gonna go a little off the wall and say something happens with the Eye of Magnus. Maybe some delayed effect from Ancano's tampering that throws off the magical balance of Skyrim. Maybe it finishes the job and plunges the rest of Winterhold in the sea (hell, this could happen even WITHOUT magical tampering), leaving Skyrim without a proper mage's college. Skyrim (with the Nords' distrust of magic to begin with) never fully recovers, and mages become vanishingly rare, mostly because most emigrate to Cyrodiil or elsewhere for their education. This leaves Skyrim militarily primitive and without most of the convenience provided by magic that the general populace takes for granted (like, say, the healers at the temples). Skyrim basically is suffering through a dark age by the time the new game comes around.

If the "Summerset Isles" rumor from way back ends up being true, we could even see the Psijics looking into the thing, maybe even figuring out how to reverse what happened or prevent it from doing something worse.

Spore

2017-01-15, 03:28 PM

I'd love a Skyrim: Hyborian Age. Mages still exist but are met with insane distrust, forcing them into hiding and using dangerous magic in order to protect themselves. Conjuration was never a safe school lorewise and necromancy is even frowned upon by mages. Both skills could become mandatory in order to put meatshields in the way of Thalmor Inquisitors, with the mage vanishing under the guise of Illusion spells. I would love a secretive mage's guild in the new TES.

Make the purging of the Dark Brotherhood canon, reintroduce the Morag Tong in TES 6 and have the mages be the secretive guild this time. While you're at it, make the thieves' guild into a roaming team of bandits rather than a local installation.

Triaxx

2017-01-15, 03:41 PM

Ah, the Elder Scrolls VI:Dragon Age.

Might I just say, if you find the game is anything like remotely too easy? Give Wildcat a try. OMFG I got murdered by a Dwarven Sphere several times. And it's both glorious and terrifying.

VoxRationis

2017-01-15, 08:38 PM

I've now played through the Dragonborn questline. I'm not sure about the Bend Will shout; the game seems to want me to use it, but it seems kind of unsavory. I am excited about the "rallying fervor" shout that I discovered in the Guardian's tomb, though; I think I shall do the Civil War questline later to use it to maximum effect.

gooddragon1

2017-01-15, 09:27 PM

Made a "spell" in the creation kit called Cremation:

Cost: 0
Channeling: 0
Slot: Voice
Type: Lesser Power
Effect: Raise Dead up to level 6000000 for 1 second in a 100 radius, ignore resistance, ignore reflect, ignore line of sight requirement

Increased speed of projectile from 1044 to 20044

Hits a surface and animates everything that can be animated for 1 second.

Triaxx

2017-01-15, 11:09 PM

I like it. Does it work correctly?

gooddragon1

2017-01-15, 11:44 PM

I like it. Does it work correctly?

I shoot it at the ground (or a corpse if I feel like it), things in a fairly good area raise for a second (not all the way) and then cremate. I once went through a door during the one second and the ashes happened on the side I came through on at a slightly slanted angle.

+Not everything can be cremated (some bodies resist raise dead no matter what level it is, including dragons I think, or at least the first dragon you ever come across did (though I left before it fully absorbed to skip having to walk back to dragonsreach)).
+I have a modification that allows me to summon up to 6 things. Not sure if that is having an effect on it.
+There have been a few times when things refused to cremate on the first attempt (could have something to do with 6 thing limit, but not likely considering that I don't think there were that many corpses around)
++This seems to happen if I try to use cremation very shortly after killing something (as in before it has even finished it's death animation within less than a second)
+Like all lesser powers it may not visibly have a cooldown in the description, but there's about a few seconds where you have to wait to use it again.
+I experimented with several skeever corpses and a few bandits at the immediate entrance of the barrow that has the golden claw (bleakfalls barrow), all of them rose, some of them did not glow blue and cremate. I used the ability again and it did nothing. On the third time the remaining two skeevers cremated. This may indicate that it is affected by the 6 summon limit I have. A specialized perk could potentially be concocted that gives access to the cremate spell and an expanded summon limit for only the cremate spell specifically. I think a mini quest or maybe just a conversation with one of the priests of Arkay would be a good way to get it.

factotum

2017-01-16, 02:51 AM

I've now played through the Dragonborn questline. I'm not sure about the Bend Will shout; the game seems to want me to use it, but it seems kind of unsavory.

I never found it to be very useful, frankly. If you had direct control over the dragon while you were riding it then maybe it would be OP, but as it is you're relying on the dragon AI to follow your instructions, and it does that about as smoothly and effectively as giving instructions to a hippo riding a three-wheeled shopping trolley.

VoxRationis

2017-01-16, 07:32 AM

I never found it to be very useful, frankly. If you had direct control over the dragon while you were riding it then maybe it would be OP, but as it is you're relying on the dragon AI to follow your instructions, and it does that about as smoothly and effectively as giving instructions to a hippo riding a three-wheeled shopping trolley.

Ha! So I noticed when riding Mr. Underbite in the main quest. He clipped through the "water" about eight times before I decided to land and fight Miraak with my bow and a flame atronach.

Triaxx

2017-01-16, 07:55 AM

gooddragon1

2017-01-17, 01:33 AM

Sounds useful. Though I'd use a smaller distance so you could target specific enemies. Maybe the big one and then Cremate individual? It's the sort of thing you want to use when fighting Necromancers to stop that non-sense of killing one and then having it instantly resurrected by his friend.

Personally, I just like the aesthetics more of a pile of ashes. But yeah, it could be useful in some situations (fighting Potema the second time...)

There's this guy named Atar or something who was annoying a town near-ish Markarth by not letting them use the mine. Because of my cheats I bribed him with 0 gold. He said "Well, that's more than the Silver-Bloods are paying us, we'll clear out."

So they were paying the Silver Bloods to do work for them...?

Triaxx

2017-01-17, 01:58 AM

I love rushing to fight that guy outside, so I can use my horse.

gooddragon1

2017-01-17, 02:22 AM

I love rushing to fight that guy outside, so I can use my horse.

Didn't know you could fight from a horse.

Idea for quest for cremation:
Priest of Arkay somewhere in Falkreath offers to teach you the spell if you bring him a human skull to put to rest so as to prove your respect for the dead (trusting that you won't get it by unsavory means). Not too hard of a mini quest. Might give me a chance to try out my Bane voice impression...

Feytalist

2017-01-17, 03:17 AM

Didn't know you could fight from a horse.

Yeah, you can. It's annoying, and not really worth it - no power attacks, no blocking, and you can't zoom in with your bow - but... it's there. Oh, and no magic, I don't think.

Rynjin

2017-01-17, 03:29 AM

Really liking Enai Saion's "Sacrosanct" vampire mod. I said earlier it reminds me a lot of Belua Sanguinare, and it really does. Great power, but at a price, and cool little subtle powers you can play with when you're less fed than the overt "**** YOU I'MA EAT YA" aids that you get the hungrier you are.

Vampire's Command in particular is a great way to get away with murdering people who annoy you. Cast it, command them to die, and they have a mysterious heart attack, nothing anyone could do.

Been having a lot of fun playing a black mage who just strides around and blasts **** with Death magic as well. Dukkha's Death magic is (relatively) balanced (mostly due to absurdly high cost on the higher levels of the spells) though it's annoying that there are 9 levels of 6 different spells cluttering up your Alteration menu. It's fun just flinging a spell and having someone get Krillin'd or their flesh explode off their bones.

I downloaded Smilodon to make it a bit more fair, so I die super fast too.

Temotei

2017-01-17, 03:29 AM

Yeah, you can. It's annoying, and not really worth it - no power attacks, no blocking, and you can't zoom in with your bow - but... it's there. Oh, and no magic, I don't think.

It can be worth it for fighting trolls and stuff like that early game if you don't know spacing well. Otherwise worthless, agreed. They're super slow, too, so you can only kite things like trolls and sometimes bandits or whatever. Bears probably. Wolves catch up.

It's probably more efficient even for players who don't know spacing to just learn spacing rather than ride a horse for those fights specifically. Kind of sad, really.

Triaxx

2017-01-17, 07:05 AM

I also have convenient horses which adds a charge attack. So I can sprint and plow through a group of Bandit's or what have you. Then again, I think something has tweaked it so I have stronger attacks while sprinting on horseback anyway, but I'm not sure what.

VoxRationis

2017-01-17, 07:27 AM

Yeah, you can. It's annoying, and not really worth it - no power attacks, no blocking, and you can't zoom in with your bow - but... it's there. Oh, and no magic, I don't think.

It's fun for fighting giants, and the NPC AI can't really handle it well for melee fighters either. You can actually power attack, and better, you can hold the power attack button indefinitely so as to time out the attack for when you're actually going to hit them, so it's more than possible to ride by someone, swipe with your power attack as they take an ineffectual swing at you/your horse, ride away, then turn around and repeat.

Triaxx

2017-01-17, 11:05 AM

Definitely best suited to Light Cavalry tactics. Sticking and fighting is worse than just dismounting.

veti

2017-01-17, 06:55 PM

Idea for quest for cremation:
Priest of Arkay somewhere in Falkreath offers to teach you the spell if you bring him a human skull to put to rest so as to prove your respect for the dead (trusting that you won't get it by unsavory means).

Is there a "savory" means to get a human skull? I guess "destroying a skeleton" may qualify, but considering the place you're most likely to find skeletons is inside a tomb that you're robbing...

Basically, the options start with grave robbery and go downhill from there.

Triaxx

2017-01-17, 07:17 PM

There are a few around the world in the outdoors. There's a ruined fort west of Whiterun, two along the road between Riverwood and Falkreath, two outside Wolfskull Cave. The Graveyard near Dustman's Cairn. Plus the fort on the road between Winterhold and Windhelm, populated with Necromancers.

Rynjin

2017-01-17, 08:02 PM

Is there a "savory" means to get a human skull? I guess "destroying a skeleton" may qualify, but considering the place you're most likely to find skeletons is inside a tomb that you're robbing...

Basically, the options start with grave robbery and go downhill from there.

Easy enough. Make it a specific person whose body was jacked by a necromancer in the morgue before it could be sanctified. Your job is to put down the necromancer and the undead abomination he created and bring the skeleton back to have the proper rites laid over it.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-17, 08:26 PM

Mages still exist but are met with insane distrust, forcing them into hiding and using dangerous magic in order to protect themselves. Conjuration was never a safe school lorewise and necromancy is even frowned upon by mages. Both skills could become mandatory in order to put meatshields in the way of Thalmor Inquisitors, with the mage vanishing under the guise of Illusion spells. I would love a secretive mage's guild in the new TES.

If it ends up being in Hammerfell: Blackcaster Mages Guild. I don't recall magic ever being popular with the Redguards...

gooddragon1

2017-01-18, 01:23 AM

Easy enough. Make it a specific person whose body was jacked by a necromancer in the morgue before it could be sanctified. Your job is to put down the necromancer and the undead abomination he created and bring the skeleton back to have the proper rites laid over it.

For a quest with that much effort (I like the idea), might as well make him a potential follower.

Scrawlings of my ambitious plans that I hope I can execute:

Name: Bahn (http://www.puzzledragonx.com/en/monster.asp?n=1352) (pronounced 'bane')

Shouts: Dragon Aspect (All three words), usable at will instead of once per day (I might have to make a separate version).

Attire: Priest of Arkay Robes plus an altered version of the Stone Dragon Mask Zahkriisos (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Zahkriisos_(Mask)) that gives a boost to unarmed damage named Lonmulaag (Lon = Fist, Mulaag = Strength) and that can work with hooded priest robes. Ebony Gauntlets. Fine Boots (black colored ones). Of course, an amulet of Arkay.
Weapons: Fists
Race: Orc
Perk: Fists of Steel
Voice: My (attempt at a) Bane impression (Dark Knight Rises Bane)

Quotes when encountering a dragon (if it's possible to make conditional voicelines for that, the rest of the dialogue would be normal of course):
"Ah yes, Dragon Kin, I was wondering which would break first. Your spirit, or your body."
"Now is not the time for fear. That comes later."
"Let the games begin."
"The fire rises."

===

If I was really good, I'd make a custom kill cam animation for Bahn that causes him to hoist the dragon over his head and bring it's back down on his knee.

===

Other Stuff
+Solitude docks are fun target practice
++Happy Endings for Skyrim if I had the patience and skill
+++Angeline's daughter is alive
+++Ulfric restores the grey quarter and more visibly respects other races besides Nords
+++Peryite's machinations fail option
++++So do Boethia's, Molag Bal, etc.

VoxRationis

2017-01-18, 07:39 PM

If the "Summerset Isles" rumor from way back ends up being true, we could even see the Psijics looking into the thing, maybe even figuring out how to reverse what happened or prevent it from doing something worse.

I desperately hope the next Elder Scrolls game is set in Summerset Isle. I'm replaying the Thalmor embassy quest now and am wishing there were more like it. We've had our game of barbarians smashing people's faces in while yelling at them—I want a game of cloak and dagger, of treachery and intrigue, a game about rogues in a land of mages. I want a game where any of the quest givers might turn out to be a Thalmor informant, and careful "due diligence" is necessary to sort out the good from the bad. I want to end shouts and replace them with codes to keep in touch with my followers/agents in a secure fashion, or decode Thalmor intelligence briefings in order to get quests/uncover loot/avoid ambushes. I want to be able to assassinate prominent NPCs in an open-world fashion, carefully plotting out successions to maneuver either my allies or convenient imbeciles into power. I want to fight the Thalmor in a way besides killing a couple of their patrols and rescuing the Empire's hold over Skyrim.

I also want a land that is beautiful in a way which isn't immediately paired with the word "stark," and clothes that aren't fur-trimmed.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-18, 09:58 PM

Balmas

2017-01-18, 10:36 PM

I wish there were more quests like the beginning of the Thalmor Embassy quest. That questline feels almost like some rogue Obsidian dev got into the Bethesda studios, wrote the beginnings of the quest, and then someone came in and said, "Man, this idiot forgot to put in all the combat! Our players get bored if they spend more than thirty seconds between hack-and-slash encounters!" And then they coded every guard you meet in the embassy to attack on sight and fight to the death.

See, if I had my way, when you get spotted in an area of the embassy that guests aren't supposed to be at, the guard would start by approaching you and challenging you, why you're here. With high enough Speechcraft, maybe you could bulls*** your way past them. Or you could mug a random Thalmor member, and disguise yourself--if you're khajiit or any elf but orsimer, they won't even challenge you. Bribe guards to turn a blind eye. Hire someone to go in and get it for you. That way you have options besides "Perfect stealth means you don't have to slaughter everyone you meet."

Mando Knight

2017-01-18, 10:58 PM

Or you could mug a random Thalmor member, and disguise yourself--if you're khajiit or any elf but orsimer, they won't even challenge you. Bribe guards to turn a blind eye. Hire someone to go in and get it for you. That way you have options besides "Perfect stealth means you don't have to slaughter everyone you meet."

There actually is some limited amount of that in the Embassy quest, if you wear the inquisitor robes (by default, only the Hooded Thalmor Robes, though the Unofficial Patch adds in the regular robes and Elven armor for Altmer only). An Altmer Dragonborn can (with a Speech check) actually make it as far as Elenwen's Solar without betraying the disguise.

Shoreward

2017-01-18, 11:09 PM

I might be remembering this wrong, but I think the other elves can try this as well, but the disguise is broken by a guard asking to see them a little closer, which I thought was a pretty cool touch.

I do agree that quests need more non-combat solutions. It would work well with people playing both crafty assassins and the inevitable attempt at a pacifist or 'gentleman swashbuckler' run. And I mean actual pacifist runs, not the ones where you travel alone and use magic to incite small riots in your wake like a sorcerer with a fetish for watching impromptu boxing matches.

moossabi

2017-01-18, 11:22 PM

I desperately hope the next Elder Scrolls game is set in Summerset Isle. I'm replaying the Thalmor embassy quest now and am wishing there were more like it. We've had our game of barbarians smashing people's faces in while yelling at them—I want a game of cloak and dagger, of treachery and intrigue, a game about rogues in a land of mages. I want a game where any of the quest givers might turn out to be a Thalmor informant, and careful "due diligence" is necessary to sort out the good from the bad. I want to end shouts and replace them with codes to keep in touch with my followers/agents in a secure fashion, or decode Thalmor intelligence briefings in order to get quests/uncover loot/avoid ambushes. I want to be able to assassinate prominent NPCs in an open-world fashion, carefully plotting out successions to maneuver either my allies or convenient imbeciles into power. I want to fight the Thalmor in a way besides killing a couple of their patrols and rescuing the Empire's hold over Skyrim.

I also want a land that is beautiful in a way which isn't immediately paired with the word "stark," and clothes that aren't fur-trimmed.
I want to play that game too now. Adding to the wishlist, having to go into disguise such that I regularly have to smuggle equipment into places, have backups that aren't obvious (conjured weapons, Summon X scrolls, etc.) or improvise because my Sword of Godkilling and Armor of Protection from Meteor Impacts wasn't allowed in.

Someone actually made a video on the topic of setting Elder Scrolls 6 in the Summerset Isles, the proposal presented didn't really go into the cloak and dagger like you both suggested but it's still a neat watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxgbC0UOyas

I wish there were more quests like the beginning of the Thalmor Embassy quest. That questline feels almost like some rogue Obsidian dev got into the Bethesda studios, wrote the beginnings of the quest, and then someone came in and said, "Man, this idiot forgot to put in all the combat! Our players get bored if they spend more than thirty seconds between hack-and-slash encounters!" And then they coded every guard you meet in the embassy to attack on sight and fight to the death.

See, if I had my way, when you get spotted in an area of the embassy that guests aren't supposed to be at, the guard would start by approaching you and challenging you, why you're here. With high enough Speechcraft, maybe you could bulls*** your way past them. Or you could mug a random Thalmor member, and disguise yourself--if you're khajiit or any elf but orsimer, they won't even challenge you. Bribe guards to turn a blind eye. Hire someone to go in and get it for you. That way you have options besides "Perfect stealth means you don't have to slaughter everyone you meet."

I remember reading something about how if you had a justiciar cloak the guards wouldn't aggro on you depending on your race. If you were human, you had to keep a distance, it you're Bosmer or Dunmer you can get a little closer (but not too close), and if you're Altmer you can actually dismiss the guards and they won't question you because you fit the profile of an actual justiciar.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Shoreward

2017-01-18, 11:29 PM

I remember reading something about how if you had a justiciar cloak the guards wouldn't aggro on you depending on your race. If you were human, you had to keep a distance, it you're Bosmer or Dunmer you can get a little closer (but not too close), and if you're Altmer you can actually dismiss the guards and they won't question you because you fit the profile of an actual justiciar.

EDIT: Ninja'd

And the beast races don't get a chance at all. Nobody is going to believe a cat-man is an elf, no matter how high your Speech is.

Although, I suppose you could be Ohmes or Ohmes-Raht...

Mando Knight

2017-01-18, 11:51 PM

I might be remembering this wrong, but I think the other elves can try this as well, but the disguise is broken by a guard asking to see them a little closer, which I thought was a pretty cool touch.
The races of Men and Mer (including Orcs) can slip by at a distance with the hooded robes (even with the Unofficial patch, as not-hooded robes can't be pulled over your face and clearly reveal you as not-Altmer), but can't get close enough to bluff their way into the Solar.

I do agree that quests need more non-combat solutions. It would work well with people playing both crafty assassins and the inevitable attempt at a pacifist or 'gentleman swashbuckler' run. And I mean actual pacifist runs, not the ones where you travel alone and use magic to incite small riots in your wake like a sorcerer with a fetish for watching impromptu boxing matches.
"Pacifist Run" kinda means the main quests are stuck: how would you deal with Alduin or Harkon peacefully?

Shoreward

2017-01-18, 11:57 PM

"Pacifist Run" kinda means the main quests are stuck: how would you deal with Alduin or Harkon peacefully?

By running as fast as you can in the opposite direction, obviously.

No one said you had to be a brave pacifist.

Triaxx

2017-01-18, 11:57 PM

Harkon is an issue, but Alduin you only have to let the heroes take him out. They can do it, but it takes forever.

Mando Knight

2017-01-19, 01:44 AM

but Alduin you only have to let the heroes take him out. They can do it, but it takes forever.
The type of pacifist run Shoreward wanted precludes that solution:

And I mean actual pacifist runs, not the ones where you travel alone and use magic to incite small riots in your wake like a sorcerer with a fetish for watching impromptu boxing matches.
A "real" pacifist run would mean finding a way to talk down Alduin the World-Eater from living up to his name. Even though you're just a soul-stealing whelp who doesn't even fight.

Shoreward

2017-01-19, 01:59 AM

The type of pacifist run Shoreward wanted precludes that solution:

A "real" pacifist run would mean finding a way to talk down Alduin the World-Eater from living up to his name. Even though you're just a soul-stealing whelp who doesn't even fight.

A way to banish him without fighting him would also work, but I doubt any such thing would be permanent in-canon. Hell, I'm not convinced killing him and eating his soul is permanent in-canon.

factotum

2017-01-19, 03:22 AM

gooddragon1

2017-01-19, 06:38 AM

I'd like to rearrange the collective faces of the Thalmor.

Other note: That cremation thing tends to draw aggro of anything living in the radius even if they're on the other side of walls. So maybe a smaller radius or single target or not ignoring walls version might be a better idea.

DigoDragon

2017-01-19, 07:58 AM

And the beast races don't get a chance at all. Nobody is going to believe a cat-man is an elf, no matter how high your Speech is.

Though they could pass as a master chef... :smallamused:

Triaxx

2017-01-19, 08:54 AM

Ah, but no one knew what he was supposed to look like.

VoxRationis

2017-01-19, 10:22 AM

So you want a subtle Elder Scrolls game? You realise these things are made by Bethesda, right? As far as they're concerned, subtlety is a type of hot brew made with suttles. :smallsmile:

Yeah, but maybe they could get someone else to make the game under license. Make TES VI: Summerset the New Vegas to Skyrim's Fallout 3.

DigoDragon

2017-01-19, 10:26 AM

Ah, but no one knew what he was supposed to look like.

Which is hilarious to think about how security must have felt when my female Khajiit shows up.

Triaxx

2017-01-19, 01:59 PM

This one knows all about fo- *runs off after ball of yarn*

factotum

2017-01-19, 04:35 PM

Yeah, but maybe they could get someone else to make the game under license. Make TES VI: Summerset the New Vegas to Skyrim's Fallout 3.

They won't ever do that. Elder Scrolls is their own IP (not a second-hand one they bought in, like Fallout), so they're not going to allow somebody else to mess around with their precious.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-19, 07:41 PM

There actually is some limited amount of that in the Embassy quest, if you wear the inquisitor robes (by default, only the Hooded Thalmor Robes, though the Unofficial Patch adds in the regular robes and Elven armor for Altmer only). An Altmer Dragonborn can (with a Speech check) actually make it as far as Elenwen's Solar without betraying the disguise.

Oddly enough the Elven armor should probably NOT work; if you listen to the NPC chatter it's implied that there are a bunch of new guys at the Embassy (thus the fact that they don't recognize your character is a non-issue) but they're High Mages in from Alinor.

But ignoring that, this facet of the quest is the WHOLE REASON I rolled up Denabrel as an Altmer for my latest run. :smallbiggrin: Now I only need to find some convenient Justiciars to murder...

A way to banish him without fighting him would also work, but I doubt any such thing would be permanent in-canon. Hell, I'm not convinced killing him and eating his soul is permanent in-canon.

Given that you explicitly DON'T eat his soul in the main quest (and this seems to be on purpose as you can have a conversation with Arngeir about it) I'm inclined to agree with you. There is an interesting lorebook (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:%22Death%22_of_Morphotypical_Entities) in ESO that makes me suspect Alduin was somehow Soul Shriven like the ESO player character...which raises an interesting question of who stole it from him.

Temotei

2017-01-19, 10:26 PM

Now I only need to find some convenient Justiciars to murder...

Don't let this turn you away from killing bad people, but there are robes in the room just past the kitchen (past the door with the talking guards), so you don't need to lug around the robes until then.

VoxRationis

2017-01-19, 10:45 PM

I tried using those and was attacked on sight.

Temotei

2017-01-19, 10:47 PM

I tried using those and was attacked on sight.

Huh. Might have been fixed by the Unofficial Patch, then. I didn't try them until after I got the patch.

Shoreward

2017-01-19, 11:23 PM

There are some hooded robes on a corpse at the Talos shrine off the road between the first three standing stones and Falkreath. The road by the river. I can't remember precisely where this is at the moment, but if you look up the shrine in that hold you'll probably find more exact information on it.

Kareeah_Indaga

2017-01-20, 06:04 PM

Don't let this turn you away from killing bad people, but there are robes in the room just past the kitchen (past the door with the talking guards), so you don't need to lug around the robes until then.

Those are noted on the wiki as not being the 'hooded' variety that I need, sadly. :smallfrown: Unofficial patch only. Thank you though.

There are some hooded robes on a corpse at the Talos shrine off the road between the first three standing stones and Falkreath. The road by the river. I can't remember precisely where this is at the moment, but if you look up the shrine in that hold you'll probably find more exact information on it.

Ooo, that will do nicely! :smallsmile:

Admiral Squish

2017-01-22, 03:11 AM

Temotei

2017-01-22, 03:42 AM

Well, I decided to get over my (apparently unjustified) hangups and start modding skyrim. Thus far, I've only dipped my toe in, getting myself SkyUI, a general bugfix, and a map overhaul. I've also downloaded immersive armor and immersive weapons, though I haven't tried them out yet.
But I'm thinking that might not be quite enough to satisfy my need for novelty, and rather than sift through the metric tons of mods and mod reviews out there, I figured I'd just ask around. What would you guys suggest in terms of mods to reinvigorate my Skyrim experience? Any general mods you would recommend for a beginner? General advice? Like, I've heard you're not supposed to autosave with mods, for some reason, and I'm wondering if I need to start getting used to quicksaving at every opportunity instead.

I've never heard of the autosave problem except with a few mods. Never had a problem with it, though I quicksave like a madman anyway, so I generally don't need the autosaves.

As for mods:

Ordinator (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68425/?)'s my choice perk overhaul. Super easy to install and I really like the feel of the system.

Apocalypse (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/16225/?) and More Apocalypse (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65527/?). Again, really clean mods in general with fun additions to the magic system.

Summermyst (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/80918/?). Used to be Wintermyst, which I'm still using for my current playthrough, but Summermyst is supposed to replace it, so I'd recommend going for it over Wintermyst.

Alternate Start (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/9557/?). If you're using a lighting overhaul, recommend you up the brightness for character creation or get used to what your characters look like in shadows as opposed to bright light before creating a new character. Hardest start is probably the necromancer start, though the plain old "I want to escape from this prison!" option probably requires you to run as well. Especially with difficulty mods.

The Choice is Yours (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/26359/?). Lets you avoid many quests by refusing them so they don't clog your quest log. Some quests are particularly difficult to avoid and mod quests are still added as normal.

Better Dialogue Controls (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/27371/?). Sometimes you mess up dialogue with your mouse or keyboard. This fixes that.

Dual Wield Parrying (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/9247/?). Does what it says. There's apparently a different version here (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/52979/?) that is updated, but I haven't tried it.

Harvest Overhaul (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/16553/?) makes alchemy slightly less of a grind when going for rare ingredients. Buying from alchemy stores is probably still more efficient for rare ingredients but now if you want to just pick a couple of mountain flowers and keep exploring and looking around you don't feel like you have to pick up every single flower on the path from Whiterun to Falkreath. Also apparently has an update (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/2398/?), but again, I haven't tried it. Overhaul also comes with creature harvesting overhaul for when you want two antlers from your deer.

Those are probably my must-haves. Sprinkle in graphics and sound improvements as desired. I have a lot more mods I enjoy if you want me to list those too, but these are all pretty friendly for just getting into modding.

Triaxx

2017-01-22, 08:14 AM

I will definitely and gladly second Ordinator and Apocalypse. Haven't played with More Apocalypse myself. If you're not a Wizard, get Apocalypse anyway, because it's got some great spells that the AI can use. And Soul Cloak is the best thing ever. (A continuous effect soul trap on anything you kill. No more having to remember to cast it on each target.)

I'm personally on the fence about Immersive Weapons, but Immersive Armor is absolutely something to jump into with both feet. It doesn't replace any of the vanilla armor, but adds pieces you can mix in without feeling like you're suddenly in a different setting.

If you're playing a sneaky type, or intending to join the Dark Brotherhood, I recommend Masters of Death. It adds Assassin's Creed 2 styled armor that actually fits beautifully into the game with nary a hiccup. It also replaces the really awful default Dark Brotherhood armor on the random assassins.

Improved Container Names is a mod I consider essential. It's so simple it's unbelievable, but it adds a suffix to all the vanilla containers, so you know what the leveled list tells it to contain. IE Barrel of Reagents, or Barrel of Produce.

If your computer can handle it, Static Mesh Improvement Mod beautifies the heck out of the game. And adds animated barrel lids which is stupidly awesome.

Trade and Barter is one I like that I don't see a lot of people using. It adds some price tweaks to the game that are mostly configurable. For example you have the option, which is off by default to have increased prices if you're wearing a helmet. Which is awesome in my opinion. I know it might sound silly, but turning that on gets you thinking, so you might go to take off your helmet, and decide, well while I'm hear I should use the better price stuff I always forget. And then it becomes a habit.

Winter is Coming - Cloaks is one of those mods that you didn't know you wanted until you've got it and then you never want to not have it. Basically it adds cloaks that you can wear from the bajillion wolves you've killed and skinned, as well as adding ones that are magic and frost resistant by default. but of course you can also enchant your own.

Alternatively is Cloaks of Skyrim, which I personally don't like the feel of as much, but adds 'unique' cloaks (I say this because you'll occasionally find multiples.), that have special abilities. But you're not told what they are right away. Instead you'll find out as you wear the cloak and meet certain conditions.

Scoped Bows is an exceptionally fun mod. Like shooting things with arrows, but don't like the crosshair? This is the mod for you. From basic posts on the lowest of bows, to glass sights on Dwarven bows, and glowing sights on Daedric ones, these are awesome.

Simple Crosshair goes along with this, including the awesome ability to have an Oblivion style sneak eye, so it's not your crosshair when you sneak but still around for you to look at down on the bar.

Want something to shoot with them? Try Craftable Water Arrows and Dousable Sconces. Those torch holders you can take the torches from? Don't want to sneak up on that guy just to turn out the light? Hit it with an arrow and leave him in the dark.

Bucklers - Shields and other armors is more than it appears at first, adding light versions of metal armors, and heavy versions of leather armors. (IE anything that's vanilla light armor has a heavy version and vice versa.) But it also adds smaller and occasionally quarter turned variants of vanilla shields. The Ebony shield for example, is shrunk and turned 90 degrees and looks sharper than most of the weapons you'd wield with it. Fantastic for a swashbuckling adventurer.

Bandolier Bags and Pouches. Can't carry all the loot? Compulsive looter anyway? Here, have an additional 400 units of weight. Immersively!

Deadly Dragons. Comfortable with your nice pathetic vanilla dragons? Feeling like a mighty lizard should be a bit tougher to take down? Configurably tougher dragons with new powers and variants. (I like to configure them with more armor, but no extra HP.)

Expanded Towns and Cities, ever walk up to Whiterun and wonder why all the open space that's unused? This adds a market. Adds walls and businesses to most of the little settlements and expands on places like Falkreath, Morthal and Dawnstar. Look Ma, Walls!

To let you more easily explore those places: Complete Fast Travel Overhaul. No longer do you need to head to a hold capital and then hump it across the barren wolf infested wastes of Skyrim. You can stop at any of the capitals or settlements with the carriages. So you don't have to walk to Ivarstead, but can take a comfortable carriage ride. (True, you've gotta walk BACK but meh.) It also gives you expanded ferry services along the water ways. Heading from say Dawnstar to Solitude? Hop a boat.

Better Dialogue Controls, Auto Unequip Ammo, and Unlimited Bookshelves. Three mods that will help you with frustration talking to people, unequip the arrows from your back when you put away your bow, but more importantly stop the game from resetting you to the absolute worst arrows you're carrying, and allow you to completely fill a bookshelf with books or other trinkets and arrange them a bit more sensibly. For example it'll stack all the notes together rather than randomly amongst the books, or actually stack ingots on a shelf instead of just arranging them in a row.

Sustained spells: Are you a wizard? Do you hate recasting Oakflesh every minute? Or Candlelight? Got you covered. For a slight penalty to magicka regen, you can have this automatically cast your protection spells or the magic globe that announces to the world: I AM A MIGHTY WIZARD, SHOOT ME BECAUSE I AM NOT STEALTHY!

Torchlight, very simply a sustained spell version of candlelight that's bright when you need it and gone when you don't.

Not a wizard? Wearable Lanterns will light up your life, even if you're waving a two handed sword or carrying a shield.

Don't forget to snag Waterstride from Apocalypse if you're a wizard, because you can use that to cross the bays and rivers without having to swim. He left it as an add-on to the mod because of all the other mods adding water walking.

Finally, last but certainly not least: aMidianBorn Book of Silence. He's retextured Armor, Weapons, Unique Items and the those from the Dragonborn DLC.

Mando Knight

2017-01-22, 11:13 AM

Alternate Start (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/9557/?). If you're using a lighting overhaul, recommend you up the brightness for character creation or get used to what your characters look like in shadows as opposed to bright light before creating a new character. Hardest start is probably the necromancer start, though the plain old "I want to escape from this prison!" option probably requires you to run as well. Especially with difficulty mods.

LAL is also great for providing a "safe" place for configuration menus to initialize, even if you always use the vanilla start anyway.

veti

2017-01-22, 03:38 PM

I'm personally on the fence about Immersive Weapons, but Immersive Armor is absolutely something to jump into with both feet. It doesn't replace any of the vanilla armor, but adds pieces you can mix in without feeling like you're suddenly in a different setting.

I for one found Immersive Armor anything but. Not only is it a humungous download - 2 whole gig, that's bigger than the whole of Dawnguard - but also it's horribly balanced. Right from the get-go, you start picking up pieces of armour that are worth 10 times the (money) value of vanilla pieces, and the game's financial balance - such as it is - just explodes.

If your computer can handle it, Static Mesh Improvement Mod beautifies the heck out of the game. And adds animated barrel lids which is stupidly awesome.

SMIM is a huge improvement, agreed.

Alternatively is Cloaks of Skyrim, which I personally don't like the feel of as much, but adds 'unique' cloaks (I say this because you'll occasionally find multiples.), that have special abilities. But you're not told what they are right away. Instead you'll find out as you wear the cloak and meet certain conditions.

Cloaks of Skyrim is my preference. It adds cloaks to basically every NPC, which makes sense in a sub-arctic climate...

To let you more easily explore those places: Complete Fast Travel Overhaul.

I prefer the older 'Better Fast Travel', which adds carriages to pretty much every settlement and disables vanilla fast travel completely. CTFO only adds them to the larger settlements, and you need a separate mod to disable vanilla fast travel - which kind of belies the "complete" descriptor in my opinion.

(However, 'Better Fast Travel' hasn't been maintained in a while, and isn't available for Special Edition.)

I would also recommend 'Realistic Lighting Overhaul', but not all parts. Specifically, for dungeons and Dawnguard interiors, it's great. But for town interiors, it just makes your friendly taverns and cosy homes and stately palaces look dim and cold. Fortunately it's divided into several modules.

'Interesting NPCs' is by far the best content mod I've found. It adds - as the title says - many NPCs with more interesting dialogues and backgrounds, including many followers and romantic options, and several quite involved full-length quests. All lore-friendly, all quite immersive, all fully voiced, many by professional voice actors.

Triaxx

2017-01-22, 05:43 PM

Umm... what mod is rebalancing your eco? It's balanced against vanilla eco. I know it's not balanced if you're running SkyRe's eco changes. That said, I don't really sell the armor. I just loot it and stash it and forget I even had it.

Technically you can have both, you just have to ensure you install the patch from WiC, so it plays nice with CoS.

I agree with his reasoning that a small town like Rorikstead wouldn't have full time carriage service. Mostly you'd just hop on a cart as it passed.

Interesting NPC's feels too big to me. Plus the voice acting makes me laugh too much to take it seriously.

Rynjin

2017-01-22, 06:51 PM

Shoreward

2017-01-22, 09:52 PM

AdmiralCheez

2017-01-22, 09:57 PM

Shoreward

2017-01-22, 10:03 PM

I always liked Frostfall, since it adds climates, camping, and cold weather survival. It just makes it feel more like a dangerous, frozen land where swimming around in glacial oceans in your underwear will kill you in seconds. It also makes the fur armor useful at all levels, so there's that, too.

Downside is how difficult it makes the Stormcloak initiation quest, which requires you to go out to an island in the middle of the Sea of Ghosts. If anything convinced me to harbour secret resentments against Galmar, that would be it. And by "secret resentments", I mean using my dragon powers to move every item in the Palace of Kings from the table to the floor, the jerk. I don't think he's caught onto me yet.

Triaxx

2017-01-22, 10:24 PM

It's much better now. No more randomly dying even though you're in the warmest part of Skyrim.

It's also been separated into two mods, Frostfall and Campfire. I'm not entirely sure why, but they seem to behave better than the single version did.

Mando Knight

2017-01-23, 01:17 AM

I'm not entirely sure why, but they seem to behave better than the single version did.

Basically, it's better programmed. Chesko rewrote the whole mod for Campfire + Frostfall 3, using tricks and better practices that he'd picked up since writing the previous two versions.

Rynjin

2017-01-23, 02:06 AM

I also imagine that being broken into smaller chunks made it easier for the Nexus Mod Manager to handle, assuming you use that. NMM has a tendency to "lose" bits of really large downloads.

gooddragon1

2017-01-23, 04:51 AM

Some fun Skyrim screenshots

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/skScreenShot9_zpsf49bd75n.png
C'mon Farengar, I don't interrupt your sleep that often. I just wanna sell you some stuff.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/skScreenShot10_zpsiechnvul.png
C'mon man, I can see you standing behind the door. Just talk to me at least.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/skScreenShot6_zpswxqpdo0g.png
It's a bird.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/skScreenShot7_zpsouxiicfy.png
It's a plane.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/skScreenShot8_zpsyayzobiw.png
No wait, It's just a really messed up glitchy dead bird.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/calcelmo_zpszp3qlhfx.png
The strangely childish mage who lives in his own world: Calc'elmo

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/keepercassette_zpsgbo1sbxg.png
The ever vigilant Keeper Cassette. She's got all the records on tape.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/klepperclapper_zps8og4op8n.png
The easily impressed yet stern faced Kleppr.

veti

2017-01-23, 12:08 PM

Overhauling a feature and removing it aren't really the same thing. It's like if I made a mod called "Complete Adoption Overhaul" and people complained I didn't add an option that removes all children from the world.

But what's the point of carriages at all, if you can just fast travel anyway?

The way I think of it is: I'm lost in the wilds, I need to find my way back to civilisation. Doesn't much matter what settlement I find, once I do there'll be someone who can take me elsewhere. But until I do, I don't have that option.

BFT simulates that. CFTO doesn't.

LibraryOgre

2017-01-23, 12:11 PM

But what's the point of carriages at all, if you can just fast travel anyway?

Early in the game, I use carriages to go to the major holds so I can fast-travel there, later. I don't know if it's included, but I'd also like it if carriages allowed fast travel when overburdened.

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-23, 12:23 PM

Early in the game, I use carriages to go to the major holds so I can fast-travel there, later. I don't know if it's included, but I'd also like it if carriages allowed fast travel when overburdened.

I thought they do that anyway? Or do those mods consider a carriage being able to haul a lot of weight a "bug"?

I still take carriages from town to town as my "fast travel" option. It's not like my characters can't afford it. Except that one time, but let's not speak of that.

I would like if my overworld custom player homes had carriage service though. At least Blackthorn Manor, it's right by a paved road. Silverstead, not so much. And my horses just keep wandering off into the hinterlands to be devoured by wolves every time I dismount. I don't get the AI for them at all.

LibraryOgre

2017-01-23, 12:37 PM

I thought they do that anyway? Or do those mods consider a carriage being able to haul a lot of weight a "bug"?

I still take carriages from town to town as my "fast travel" option. It's not like my characters can't afford it. Except that one time, but let's not speak of that.

I would like if my overworld custom player homes had carriage service though. At least Blackthorn Manor, it's right by a paved road. Silverstead, not so much. And my horses just keep wandering off into the hinterlands to be devoured by wolves every time I dismount. I don't get the AI for them at all.

It would be an interesting Mod if you could convince all "unattended" horses to walk slowly to be within X distance of the nearest stable. Dismount, and your horse starts walking (at player sneaking speed, so you can catch up while walking) to the nearest stable. Make it so they stop once they're within 10m of the nearest stable, so they mill nearby.

Landis963

2017-01-23, 12:45 PM

It would be an interesting Mod if you could convince all "unattended" horses to walk slowly to be within X distance of the nearest stable. Dismount, and your horse starts walking (at player sneaking speed, so you can catch up while walking) to the nearest stable. Make it so they stop once they're within 10m of the nearest stable, so they mill nearby.

You'd need them to stick around until they're Y distance away from their assigned player/NPC. No sense having them start to mosey away from you the instant you dismount.

Triaxx

2017-01-23, 12:50 PM

AdmiralCheez

2017-01-23, 01:12 PM

Downside is how difficult it makes the Stormcloak initiation quest, which requires you to go out to an island in the middle of the Sea of Ghosts. If anything convinced me to harbour secret resentments against Galmar, that would be it. And by "secret resentments", I mean using my dragon powers to move every item in the Palace of Kings from the table to the floor, the jerk. I don't think he's caught onto me yet.

Well, obviously only a true son of Skyrim, a worthy addition to the Stormcloaks, would be able to survive! Either that or they're jerks; can't rule that out.

Basically, it's better programmed. Chesko rewrote the whole mod for Campfire + Frostfall 3, using tricks and better practices that he'd picked up since writing the previous two versions.

I was hoping to avoid re-doing another mod overhaul/playthrough of Skyrim, but this and all the other mod suggestions are tempting me. I don't know if I have that kind of time these days...

DigoDragon

2017-01-23, 03:25 PM

I thought they do that anyway? Or do those mods consider a carriage being able to haul a lot of weight a "bug"?

Pretty sure carriages carry you even when encumbered. Though with Convenient Horses I don't mind just riding pretty in the saddle to get places. I'm usually able to outrun anything. I just have to write myself notes reminding myself to empty the saddlebag of the loot I put in there so that stuff I collected at level 8 isn't still there after level 40. >.> Oops.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/gooddragon1/skScreenShot8_zpsyayzobiw.png
No wait, It's just a really messed up glitchy dead bird.

Huh. The teddy bear I have on the bed of my Novac room in New Vegas does a similar glitch. Though your bird I think stretches quite a ways farther. o.o

Triaxx

2017-01-23, 03:34 PM

I clean the horse storage out once the menu delay reaches five seconds.

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-23, 03:44 PM

Well, obviously only a true son of Skyrim, a worthy addition to the Stormcloaks, would be able to survive! Either that or they're jerks; can't rule that out.

You've met Galmar; guy is hard as a coffin nail. I like him even though he as much as says, "I mostly expected you to die out there. Guess you might have what it takes after all."

Admiral Squish

2017-01-23, 03:46 PM

I got a lot of the suggested mods and gave them a try last night.
Did not get off to a good start. Started a new game. The wheels on the wagon to Helgen got progressively more and more off-kilter as we rode, until we pulled in to stop with the wagon standing vertically atop the horse. Characters just walked endlessly into walls, so I had to go load a save from just before the 'who are you' bit.
That worked much smoother, though. I'm going with a spell, shield, and heavy armor type build, with a little one-handed thrown into the mix. I'm just about to go climb to High Hrothgar. So far, the mods haven't really impacted the game that much, apart from the occasional 'oh, hey, that bandit's got a bo staff' or 'oh, cool, there's a little market here now'.

Also, the cloaks of cloaks of skyrim look awesome. Sell nicely, too.

AdmiralCheez

2017-01-23, 03:55 PM

You've met Galmar; guy is hard as a coffin nail. I like him even though he as much as says, "I mostly expected you to die out there. Guess you might have what it takes after all."

Oh yeah, totally forgot that part. Well, I guess that quote actually makes sense now. After all, the troops like to camp in the freezing cold for long periods of time, so it makes sense to be prepared for it.

Triaxx

2017-01-23, 03:58 PM

Yeah, that's not the mods. Skyrim just seems to randomly go totally off the rails for a bit.

The other day I rode up onto a section of ground, the horse tips 90 degrees forward and leaves only the tail sticking out of the ground, then snaps back to normal.

So totally weird is perfectly normal.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2017-01-23, 05:33 PM

I've had issues with horse mods screwing up the carts in the beginning of the game before.

Triaxx

2017-01-23, 05:52 PM

True, but CH was coded to prevent that by not starting until you jump on your first mount.

Rynjin

2017-01-23, 06:08 PM

Did you remember to sort your mods with LOOT? Some...weirdness can occur with mod conflicts, from quirks like that to crash on startup.

Admiral Squish

2017-01-23, 06:31 PM

Did you remember to sort your mods with LOOT? Some...weirdness can occur with mod conflicts, from quirks like that to crash on startup.

I answer your question with a question: What's LOOT?

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-23, 06:49 PM

I answer your question with a question: What's LOOT?

Gasp! You don't know LOOT? I kid, I kid. Modding in Skyrim is just a never ending time suck. It's on Skyrim Nexus or GitHub with a link to there from Nexus or something. It's a program that automagically sorts your mods to minimize conflicts, with a couple caveats: some mods will Never work together no matter what order they're in; sometimes it doesn't get things right without a little help from the end user (you). There's documentation which may or may not be completely current, but at least it's something.

Triaxx

2017-01-23, 06:58 PM

It uses a constantly updated master list and works for Oblivion forward. It's the sequel to BOSS which was Better Oblivion Sorting System.

Not sure what LOOTS acronym stands for though.

Rynjin

2017-01-23, 07:13 PM

Yeah you should also remember to read the whole mod description (usually there's a "Compatibility" section that mentions what mods conflict with it). Some mods require patches to work with other mods (for example, Apocalypse: Magic of Skyrim requires a patch to work with Ordinator or Perkus Maxmus), and some mods will just conflict entirely. Usually this happens when two mods change the same thing. EX if you have a pair of mods and both change a cave somewhere in bum**** nowhere to lead to a different cell, or be essential for their quest...you're gonna have a bad time. That's why most mods tends toward only small changes to existing cells (hey, I added a merchant to this inn...and even that can cause issues if two mods do it) or creating their own locations whole cloth for new quests and such.

AdmiralCheez

2017-01-23, 07:55 PM

Not sure what LOOTS acronym stands for though.

I think it stands for Load Order Optimization Tool, but I'm not totally sure on that.

VoxRationis

2017-01-24, 09:39 AM

CFTO does add carriages and ferry services to Hearthfire homes. The rest you'd have to bug the individual authors for.

Of course we're lucky to have carriages at all since the player is the only person to use them.

'Quick, we need to go to that far away place, and quickly!'

'Shall we take a carriage?'

'No, let's run!' *jogs off*

I have the unmodded Special Edition and my Hearthfire home has a carriage anyway.
Speaking of Hearthfire, does anyone wish one could become a sort of lord? The names like "Manor" and "Steading" for the homes kind of imply that one would have tenants or nearby farmers paying taxes. In particular, the Hjaalmarch house is so out of the way that it seems like Jarl Idgrod is setting me up as a marcher lord, trying to get me to secure the coastline and a route northward. I should be able to get more servants than just a steward and a housecarl. Moreover, given the overwhelming impact you can have on the civil war, it would make absolute sense for your side to give you a title, perhaps that of one of the deposed enemy Jarls.
But this is just a resurfacing of an old complaint I have about how your character never seems to amass any political power, in spite of saving the world several times over, single-handedly winning wars, and potentially heading numerous organizations. "Hm, I have a mercenary band of werewolves at my beck and call, am the leader of the College of Winterhold, and directly control both the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood. Surely Maven Black-Briar shouldn't be able to talk to me like that?"

Admiral Squish

2017-01-24, 12:01 PM

I have the unmodded Special Edition and my Hearthfire home has a carriage anyway.
Speaking of Hearthfire, does anyone wish one could become a sort of lord? The names like "Manor" and "Steading" for the homes kind of imply that one would have tenants or nearby farmers paying taxes. In particular, the Hjaalmarch house is so out of the way that it seems like Jarl Idgrod is setting me up as a marcher lord, trying to get me to secure the coastline and a route northward. I should be able to get more servants than just a steward and a housecarl. Moreover, given the overwhelming impact you can have on the civil war, it would make absolute sense for your side to give you a title, perhaps that of one of the deposed enemy Jarls.
But this is just a resurfacing of an old complaint I have about how your character never seems to amass any political power, in spite of saving the world several times over, single-handedly winning wars, and potentially heading numerous organizations. "Hm, I have a mercenary band of werewolves at my beck and call, am the leader of the College of Winterhold, and directly control both the Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood. Surely Maven Black-Briar shouldn't be able to talk to me like that?"

You can get plenty of political power, you're just limited in how you can apply it. For one, you can kill a man in cold blood in the middle of the street in broad daylight, then remind the guards you're the thane and they let you go. How many political figures do you know that could get away with that?
Plus, you have access to the most powerful tool of political power in the entire universe: Brute force. You can just kill her. Granted, it takes a console command and/or a mod, but you have that power. It's not like the guards would be able to stop you.

Triaxx

2017-01-24, 12:05 PM

Sorry, improved carriage/ferry service.

Winter_Wolf

2017-01-24, 12:45 PM

If memory serves, Hearthfire was essentially a mod for some competition or something that became a paid DLC. Game Jam, or something like that? One thing I like about the (free) Blackthorn mod is that you are kind of like a (very) minor lord in the Rift as you build up the ruined thorp by investing time and money into rebuilding, improving, and hiring NPCs. It's not really integrated to the point you'd be recognized by the Jarl of Riften or any of the NPCs in the other settlements, but it get closer than the Halearthfires homesteads.

I feel ya on the "something missing" with Hearthfire, though. Considering where Jarl Grumpy of Dawnstar gives you to settle, I'd have thought there'd be a bit more to it. Walls or palisades at least, I mean there's an awful lot of giants in your vicinity. All the homesteads are in pretty undesired locations though: Lakeshore Manor is pretty but your next door neighbor's are the folk at Pinewatch; Idgrod drops you more or less in a cold marsh; Grumpy puts you right next door to two giant camps. Still like 'em better than the city homes, at least they exit directly to the overworld.

VoxRationis

2017-01-24, 06:26 PM

Plus, you have access to the most powerful tool of political power in the entire universe: Brute force. You can just kill her. Granted, it takes a console command and/or a mod, but you have that power. It's not like the guards would be able to stop you.
I don't know how to do console commands and I'm not a big fan of mods. And without them, Maven Black-Briar (as well as Thongvor Silver-Blood) isn't going anywhere.

If memory serves, Hearthfire was essentially a mod for some competition or something that became a paid DLC. Game Jam, or something like that? One thing I like about the (free) Blackthorn mod is that you are kind of like a (very) minor lord in the Rift as you build up the ruined thorp by investing time and money into rebuilding, improving, and hiring NPCs. It's not really integrated to the point you'd be recognized by the Jarl of Riften or any of the NPCs in the other settlements, but it get closer than the Halearthfires homesteads.

I feel ya on the "something missing" with Hearthfire, though. Considering where Jarl Grumpy of Dawnstar gives you to settle, I'd have thought there'd be a bit more to it. Walls or palisades at least, I mean there's an awful lot of giants in your vicinity. All the homesteads are in pretty undesired locations though: Lakeshore Manor is pretty but your next door neighbor's are the folk at Pinewatch; Idgrod drops you more or less in a cold marsh; Grumpy puts you right next door to two giant camps.
I kind of dislike the homesteads' architecture; long habits of using Whiterun for loot-selling trips mean I associate that sort of building style with shops. In general, the lack of differing architecture between the homesteads kind of gets to me. The dangerous locations make Whiterun architecture even more questionable. If I'm living next to bandits, giants, and who knows what else, I'm going to want at least part of my home to be made out of stone.

Still like 'em better than the city homes, at least they exit directly to the overworld.
Well, the Windhelm home is pretty nice, I think. And you can fast travel from the interior of cities.

Rynjin

2017-01-24, 06:30 PM

I don't know how to do console commands and I'm not a big fan of mods. And without them, Maven Black-Briar (as well as Thongvor Silver-Blood) isn't going anywhere.

Hit your ` (or ~) key. Click on Maven or Thongvor or whoever. Type "setessential 0" without the quotes and hit enter. Now they're no longer essential. Easy peasy, honey mead-y.

If you want to make someone else Essential (like your traveling companion, for instance) simply do the same, but replace the 0 with a 1.

List of other commands you might find useful. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Console)

Temotei

2017-01-24, 07:17 PM

If you get into serious modding, you should have LOOT, Wrye Bash, and probably TES5Edit. Look up videos on YouTube about how to use them and follow along. After one or two goes at it you should remember how to do it the next time, but if not, there are always those videos.

Triaxx

2017-01-24, 07:22 PM

Honeyside (Riften) is absolutely the best of the town houses. With a map exit and a city exit, you can even use it as a 'stealth' way in and out of town.

I just remembered one mod that's almost essential for me: Envision Faces. It's exceptional at dealing with the pixely default faces.

veti

2017-01-24, 10:02 PM

Hit your ` (or ~) key. Click on Maven or Thongvor or whoever. Type "setessential 0" without the quotes and hit enter. Now they're no longer essential. Easy peasy, honey mead-y.

Warning: before you do this, make sure you're not going to be disposing of the thanes of their respective cities, either through the civil war or 'Season Unending'. Else you'll get an arrow to the metaphorical knee. The game gets quite upset if a city has no thane, and it's far from easy to attach the title to someone else.

I've tried.

Shoreward

2017-01-24, 10:19 PM

Warning: before you do this, make sure you're not going to be disposing of the thanes of their respective cities, either through the civil war or 'Season Unending'. Else you'll get an arrow to the metaphorical knee. The game gets quite upset if a city has no thane, and it's far from easy to attach the title to someone else.

I've tried.

Perfect! Maybe you can save me the long period of experimentation and tell me what happens if you kill Maven if she becomes the thane of Riften. How hard does the game Zero Sum?

gooddragon1

2017-01-26, 05:17 AM

Next on my hit list: Thongvor.

Also, imagine if there was a mod for a black book named "Pointed Salvation" that teleported you instantly (unlike other black books) to a place that functioned like a player owned home. Could be funny.

EDIT: I helped a chieftain kill a giant, then he attacked me and I felt bad for killing him. When asked about how he died, I lied and said he died in battle. Malacath promptly informed the shaman how he actually died. Then he said I'm the only one who had proven themselves worthy in all of this. Strange, because I totally just lied and willingly went through with helping the chieftain. I also used a bow to kill everything in there. How exactly would that make me worthy? I wish I could have persuaded the orcs of that village to go with Azura instead (she seems nicer).

VoxRationis

2017-01-26, 07:50 AM

It actually bothers me that you can't get leadership of the orc stronghold in that quest, at least if you play your cards right. You can play a male orc and do that quest, or triumph over a chieftain of a different stronghold in honorable combat, and they won't give you the stronghold. Meanwhile, you can be the worst mage in the world and axe your way to the Arch-Mage's chair at Winterhold.

It has recently occurred to me that Dragonborn's content is really tonally inconsistent. The main quest of that DLC is dark, with Lovecraftian elements in art design and a story that leaves you wondering if you really won, per se. But Solstheim itself is nothing like that. In the south you have the Morrowind-nostalgia that never really goes anywhere (though it does have the Dwemer ruin where you actually fight Dwemer machines and not Falmer for a change) and the north is practically a cartoon, with goofy-looking new armor types, light-hearted side quests and minor villains, and the faintly comedic Rieklings. The fact that the island is small and its locations even more closely packed than mainland Skyrim's adds to Solstheim's bizarre atmosphere.

DigoDragon

2017-01-26, 08:09 AM

EDIT: I helped a chieftain kill a giant, then he attacked me and I felt bad for killing him. When asked about how he died, I lied and said he died in battle. Malacath promptly informed the shaman how he actually died. Then he said I'm the only one who had proven themselves worthy in all of this. Strange, because I totally just lied and willingly went through with helping the chieftain. I also used a bow to kill everything in there. How exactly would that make me worthy? I wish I could have persuaded the orcs of that village to go with Azura instead (she seems nicer).

I know the quest you're talking about and... yeah, those Daedric Princes can be oddballs to understand. Then again, Malacath is the prince of the spurned, so I guess any chance he gets to throw out some disdain/contempt on others? I suppose from the prince's perspective any chief who cheated their test to prove their strength deserves nothing less than total rejection, regardless what a dragonborn says.

I used a bow as well to shoot up the place. Then for fun I started picking up weapons from the dead and beat the snot out of the others with them and... um, yeah. Why am I the hero again? :smalltongue:

Triaxx

2017-01-26, 08:22 AM

Yes, Stalhrim is a bit silly looking. But Nordic Carved is beautiful and functional. And even Skaal gear looks like something you'd want to wear while stomping around in horribly ugly winter weather.

As for the plot, that's one of the best things about it, because it's so flat out alien to the main game, leaving it completely free of the downsides of it, but letting it cling to the best parts of it. 'Fight Dragons, get killed by Bears!'

Avanchzel is the only other Falmer Free Ruin. And both are awesome.

Wasn't Malacath the guy that got eaten? Or part of him?

Feytalist

2017-01-26, 09:14 AM

Wasn't Malacath the guy that got eaten? Or part of him?

Yeah. Possibly. TES lore is weird.

Trinimac used to be an old mer deity, but Boethiah got annoyed/jealous/bored/fed up with him, ate him up and "spit" him out. So Trinimac disappeared and returned misshapen and grotesque as Malacath. (Amusing side note, Boethiah apparently also took the form of Trinimac to convince some altmer to follow him and so created the orcs.)

Or none of that could be true, entirely made up or metaphor. Who knows.

Triaxx

2017-01-26, 09:34 AM

Yeah, and that's not even one of the confusing ones.

veti

2017-01-26, 11:01 AM

Admiral Squish

2017-01-26, 11:01 AM

Is it just me, or are the Silver Hand always WAY harder than any normal enemies one would face? Like, I'm walking around in the heaviest plate and a shield and the two-handed guys are still taking me out in like two or three hits.

Unexpected downside to the Summermyst mod: It's a lot harder to find the exact enchantments you want. I mean, I like the new ones, and I could see whole builds coming out of some of them... but sometimes I just need fortify one-handed more than I need reduced stamina cost for power attacks.

Apocalypse spells are FANTASTIC. A lot of them are a little odd/situational, but there are some really good ones, and I'm LOVING the sustainable spells thing. I'm also a Big fan of Soul Cloak, I just wish it was castable as a sustainable spell...

I decided to ditch the spell-and-shield character. I was too spread out across too many trees, I wasn't dealing enough damage and I was just too squishy overall.
I was thinking of making a 'predator' argonian. Dual-wielded blades, stealth, light armor, Namira's ring to eat his prey.
I might go back to that idea sometime, but the idea sorta evolved into an unarmed, light armor khajit vampire build I'm calling 'blood saber' in my head. The idea is a narcissist with a superiority complex, trying to connect to the 'apex predator' feline nature, embodying the feral strength of a saber cat. Strong enough to take on anyone who tries to get the jump on him, but prefers to sneak up on his prey and take them out with his claws. Vampire gives stealth and illusion bonuses, bonus unarmed damage, the various necromage bonuses, and access to the Ring of the Beast, which is +20 unarmed and +100 health.
There's a specific mod I'm looking for to complete the package, though, and I can't seem to find it. It was used in a playthrough I watched on youtube, and it seemed to make the character's claws enchantable and made them sneak attack like daggers. Mostly looking for the dagger sneak attack part, because a 16x multiplier on sneak attack damage would be AMAZING.

factotum

2017-01-26, 11:12 AM

Is it just me, or are the Silver Hand always WAY harder than any normal enemies one would face? Like, I'm walking around in the heaviest plate and a shield and the two-handed guys are still taking me out in like two or three hits.

Silver Hand are tough at low levels because they only ever spawn with either silver longsword or silver greatsword, both of which do a lot of damage compared to the garbage a low-level bandit will be hitting you with. On the other hand, they never spawn with *better* weapons than those, so they become easy fodder at higher levels.

Admiral Squish

2017-01-26, 11:50 AM

I found the unarmed mod I was talking about, (New Unarmed Hand to Hand skill by Budcat (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/14387/?)) but it poses a conundrum... It doesn't change your unarmed strikes, it's invisible weapons and a skill tree.
On one hand, cool as heck. I could hotkey them, damage is skill- and smithing- based so there's less hoops to jump through, they can be enchanted with vital stuff like soul trap, they come with those tasty x16 sneak attacks, and using them would actually level skills...
On the other hand, using them basically throws my plans for the build out the window, since all those unarmed bonuses I was hunting suddenly no longer apply, since it's not unarmed attacks, it's 'fist weapons', and it would apparently switch my fighting style from 'slow, powerful strikes' to 'flurry o' claws'.

Silver Hand are tough at low levels because they only ever spawn with either silver longsword or silver greatsword, both of which do a lot of damage compared to the garbage a low-level bandit will be hitting you with. On the other hand, they never spawn with *better* weapons than those, so they become easy fodder at higher levels.

But then you have to WAIT to become a werewolf! I wanna be a horrifically cursed half-beast death machine NOW~!

Rynjin

2017-01-26, 01:02 PM

Apocalypse spells are FANTASTIC. A lot of them are a little odd/situational, but there are some really good ones, and I'm LOVING the sustainable spells thing. I'm also a Big fan of Soul Cloak, I just wish it was castable as a sustainable spell...

Ocato's Recital is an Alteration spell you can get at some point. It lets you store up to 3 spells. Whenever you enter combat, it will automatically cast those spells on you for free.

Great for Mage Armor, other buff spells like Tree Rings and, yes, Soul Cloak.

I don't know about ENCHANTABLE unarmed strikes, but if you download Ordinator (a perk overhaul mod by the same guy that made Apocalypse) the Light Armor tree has a branch that makes unarmed strikes better, and one of the perks has you deal elemental damage with each strike.

The Enchanting tree also lets you go all "Spellblade" and has a perk that automatically casts the spell in your left hand whenever you use the weapon in your right. Unfortunately not great for the unarmed tree (the unarmed perks require you to have both hands empty to function), but opens up possibilities with a single really strong Destruction spell delivered as an "alpha strike" with a punch, then normal punches.

Triaxx

2017-01-26, 01:50 PM

The sneak tree also has several useful perks, which increase one handed and unarmed damage during sneak attacks as well as one that after performing a 'silent' roll, gives you +40 damage to unarmed attacks for a few seconds.

The_Jackal

2017-01-26, 05:25 PM

Silver Hand are tough at low levels because they only ever spawn with either silver longsword or silver greatsword, both of which do a lot of damage compared to the garbage a low-level bandit will be hitting you with. On the other hand, they never spawn with *better* weapons than those, so they become easy fodder at higher levels.

Specifically, when you start running into Silver Hand, odds are you're a pretty low level, and most importantly, you're a WEREWOLF, so while a normal steel sword would do 8 damage, a silver sword will do 28 damage to you, before accounting for power attacks and the like. Unlike enchantments, the bonus damage to undead/vampires/werewolves is treated like base damage, and therefore affected by power attacks and the like. So the silver hand are really no different from bandits, they're just using these incredibly dangerous weapons. Unfortunately, silver weapons can't be tempered (wihtout mods), so they quickly become unfavorable for the player to use. That said, taking a silver sword into draugr ruins at low levels can be quite effective.

Temotei

2017-01-26, 06:46 PM

Specifically, when you start running into Silver Hand, odds are you're a pretty low level, and most importantly, you're a WEREWOLF, so while a normal steel sword would do 8 damage, a silver sword will do 28 damage to you, before accounting for power attacks and the like. Unlike enchantments, the bonus damage to undead/vampires/werewolves is treated like base damage, and therefore affected by power attacks and the like. So the silver hand are really no different from bandits, they're just using these incredibly dangerous weapons. Unfortunately, silver weapons can't be tempered (wihtout mods), so they quickly become unfavorable for the player to use. That said, taking a silver sword into draugr ruins at low levels can be quite effective.

Responding to the silver swords bit (hence no spoiler): silver swords can be viable even in late game with certain builds if you focus on perk interactions in vanilla (Augmented Flames + fire enchantment). You probably don't have to take the one-handed perks then either because your sword damage will be relatively low compared to how much fire damage and whatnot you'll be doing.

That said, there's a crafting overhaul that makes it so silver swords do +% damage rather than +20 base and you can smith them. You can change it back to the +20 if you want or you can change the % value at any time, though I'm not sure you would be able to do that to a sword you are currently wielding or have in your inventory. Might have to drop the sword and pick it back up for the change to take effect. Not sure, haven't tried it. I always configure my mods right at the beginning of a playthrough before I've talked to the statue of Mara in Alternate Start.