House Rule Suggestion - Frenzy Exhaustion

[Escribblings]

So, while discussing Frenzy in another thread and the limited number of ways to deal with exhaustion, I had an idea.

The question is, do you think this is balanced enough?

At the moment, let's say you're a l20 barb with unlimited rages.

You can frenzy a max of 6 times (last one would be suicide). After 5, you would have to have a long rest with food and water &c...

So that is where I get the number 6 from and the fact that you can frenzy multiple times between rests.

My idea is this.

Starting at level 3, with path of the Berserker, you gain the ability to frenzy when you rage.

However, you only gain the ability to frenzy 3 times, and you need to take a long rest to clear ONE frenzy. So if you have frenzied twice, it would take 2 long rests to reset to 0.

The number of times you can frenzy before you have filled your frenzy meter increases with the number of times you can rage (except for unlimited).

So you gain an additional frenzy slot at 6th, 12th and 17th levels bringing you up to the max of 6.

I would like to think that the slowly increasing number of frenzy slots, and the long rest only clearing one frenzy makes this palatable without breaking the game for everyone else.

What do you think.

[MasterMercury]

So it's like the exhaustion limit, but without the exhaustion and scales with level? I like it. It's still a similar system, where you're weighing present need v future, but you're not "punished" by using it.
Airquotes "punished" because I don't really mind the frenzy as is. But, if it bothers you, this is a good fix for it that retains a lot of the flavor.

[Escribblings]

Exactly.

It retains a lot of the flavour, you could even add in "some" of the exhaustion punishments if you want, but I think restricting the number of times you can frenzy before you need to test to free up at least one slot, and having those shots increase with time, stops it being overpowering early on.

You could even change it so it is 1 frenzy at lvl 3, 2 at 6, 3 at 9, 4 at 12, 5 at 15 and 6 at 18 if you think the 3 at 3, 4 at 6, 5 at 12 and 6 at 17 is too much too soon.

[Arkhios]

I like it too, probably at least partly because I had similar ideas once, but eventually scrapped them due to bad execution. You, however, did much better in my honest opinion.

[Escribblings]

One last option that came to me this morning is to keep it as is with 1 exception.

You incur exhaustion for every SECOND frenzy (whether you have tested between frenzies or not)

[Lombra]

If you are a level 20 barbarian you will be always enraged and always frenzied... so you won't get more than one level of exhaustion each day... yes you may fall unconcious, but which are the odds?

But here's something to help:

Berserkers can heal one exhaustion level during a short rest.
____________________or______________________
Berserkers ignore exhaustion levels while raging

Or both.
This gives an extra "ribbon of utility" to the archetype while keeping frenzy an awesome ability.

[N810]

My DM ruled that a long rest removes all levels of exhaustion,
This fixes a lot of the problems.

[Joe the Rat]

This provides a hard limit, with flexibility. It's a fair use. Personally, I think a frenzy should invoke a penalty for use (and do more than what it does, but that's another topic). Having each use hit you with a level of exhaustion clearable on a short rest, and frenzy use recovered on a long rest would make me happier.



Berserkers ignore exhaustion levels while ragingI'm a fan of minimal adjustments - this is what I've considered trying should it come up.

[Talderas]

My personal thought is that the optional feat rules aren't really optional and that Great Weapon Mastery is a perfect complement to a berserker to mitigates a lot of the negative effect from exhaustion levels.

The only benefit you gain from a frenzy over a normal rage is the bonus action for an extra weapon attack. Great weapon mastery, aside from being awesome due to reckless attack +10 damage with -5 to attack roll and I have advantage anyway, provides a two additional methods of securing a bonus action to attack beyond the frenzy. The first is dropping enemies to zero and the second is landing critical hits which you have a 9.75% of any attack roll being a critical hit due to reckless attack. While the second method is random and not really pertinent the first is what complements frenzy so well by switching frenzy from a must use to a can use ability.

The reason that GWM complements frenzy is specific encounter design. If your DM throws a large number of creatures easily killed with one or two attacks from your greataxe the necessity for frenzy, and by extension gaining exhaustion levels, is severely diminished. However, if you're fighting something with a lot of hit points then the bonus action attacks from GWM aren't going to factor in and the bonus actions from frenzy become more valuable. For example, this past weekend I was playing a berserker in an underdark campaign. We had an encounter with nine carrion crawlers. I didn't frenzy and I was glad that I did not as I was reliably killing the crawlers with two hits and generated an extra attack via GWM virtually every turn.

That said, I think the archetype is too dependent on DM encounter style. If you get tossed a bunch of encounters with small numbers or beefy creatures then the exhaustion levels are going to stack up in a day as you need to frenzy for bonus attacks rather than relying on GWM. From a practical perspective you can frenzy four times before continuing adventuring becomes a risky proposition as you halve your hit points. Since you do not ignore the detriments of exhaustion the fifth frenzy will turn you immobile which means the sixth frenzy which would kill you is all but certain to not happen.

Let's look at the individual exhaustion penalties with respect to barbarian for the first three usages of frenzy.

EL1 : You have disadvantage on ability checks. This level does not severely impact combat for a barbarian. The primary two ability checks that a barbarian will perform during combat are initiative checks and a few strength based ability checks where they use athletics or pure strength. Barbarians gain advantage on strength checks and initiative checks means the disadvantage is eliminated. True you don't get your advantage on the roll but that's a lot better than disadvantage.
EL2 : Speed halved. Kind of sucky as you move at 20ft instead of 40ft but you can still move around the field and remember to keep your javelins on hand to keep the rage going.
EL3 : Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws. This is where some more hurt begins to show up but remember that reckless attack gives advantage on attack rolls and you already have advantage on strength saving throws. He gains advantage on dexterity saving throws that he can see the effect of. The berserker also gains immunity to charm and fear while in his rage so that mitigates a portion of the risk from wisdom and charisma checks. Further he has constitution save proficiency which at least helps to partially mitigate the disadvantage on those saves.

The barbarian can function fairly well under the influence of exhaustion level two assuming he can rage and even three isn't a huge penalty.

My opinion on frenzy is that the main tweak that can be used is the ability to recover two exhaustion levels per day. Once during a long rest like everyone gets and a second which is a class feature that grants a once per long rest ability to recover an exhaustion level during a short rest.

[JDCGW]

I see three issues with Frenzy:

The exhaustion drawback.
The extra attack using the bonus action. Why shouldn't a two-weapon fighting barbarian be able to benefit from Frenzy?
Being unable to use the extra attack until the second turn.


Here's my solution to these issues:
Frenzy
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) action. When your rage ends, make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you fail, you suffer one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.

So the flavor of exhaustion is still there, but it's only a chance, and the chance lessens as the character level increases.

[Talderas]

Being unable to use the extra attack until the second turn.

That's an issue with rage requiring a bonus action to activate not one exclusive to berserker or frenzy.

[Nod_Hero]

We've been using a house rule that allows the barbarian to use his hit dice to heal levels of exhaustion instead of hit points during short rests. It takes the amount of hit dice as that level of exhaustion to recover from it. So for example if the barbarian has two levels of exhaustion, during the short rest he could spend three hit dice to recover from all exhaustion.

[JDCGW]

That's an issue with rage requiring a bonus action to activate not one exclusive to berserker or frenzy.

True, but the Totem Barbarian options do not have to wait a turn to receive their benefits, so I think it's fair for the Frenzy Barbarian to be able to receive an additional attack right away.

[Grey Watcher]

...

Berserkers ignore exhaustion levels while raging

...

I proposed this idea while back. It prompted much discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503277-Frenzied-Rage-Fix-Idea). (Note: I'm pretty sure replying to that thread would count as a Thread Necromancy, so please don't do so, I just linked it for reference.)


We've been using a house rule that allows the barbarian to use his hit dice to heal levels of exhaustion instead of hit points during short rests. It takes the amount of hit dice as that level of exhaustion to recover from it. So for example if the barbarian has two levels of exhaustion, during the short rest he could spend three hit dice to recover from all exhaustion.

Wait, wouldn't it be two HD? As I understand what you're saying, one HD spent annihilates one level of exhaustion. Or is the intent (Levels of Exhaustion to be reduced) + 1?

[Joe the Rat]

It might be you have to spend more hit die to recover higher levels - two HD for the 2nd level, then 1 HD for the first. It gets more expensive the more you run yourself out before a rest.

I understand the concept, but I'm not 100% on board with the pricing.

[Nod_Hero]

Wait, wouldn't it be two HD? As I understand what you're saying, one HD spent annihilates one level of exhaustion. Or is the intent (Levels of Exhaustion to be reduced) + 1?


It might be you have to spend more hit die to recover higher levels - two HD for the 2nd level, then 1 HD for the first. It gets more expensive the more you run yourself out before a rest.

Joe is spot on, that's the formula.
If you are at the third level of exhaustion, you'd spend 3 hit die to drop to two level, then spend 2 hit die to drop to one level, then 1 more hit die to clear all exhaustion. More hit die as you level = the ability to spend more of the resource. If the berserker goes all out with Frenzy every time they rage, they might not have enough hit die resource available to clear all the exhaustion, reflecting that they've gone "beyond the normal limits" in regards to frenzy exhaustion.

[Escribblings]

And you only regain 1 hit die per long rest don't you?

[Joe the Rat]

Half of your total Hit Die

It also means you are buying down exhaustion at the cost of not recovering as many Hit Points through rest. Take a penalty but stay up longer, or keep your fighting trim, but you may run out of steam and fall in battle. The resource management turns Berserker into the Thinking Man's Barbarian.

[Nod_Hero]

Half of your total Hit Die

It also means you are buying down exhaustion at the cost of not recovering as many Hit Points through rest. Take a penalty but stay up longer, or keep your fighting trim, but you may run out of steam and fall in battle. The resource management turns Berserker into the Thinking Man's Barbarian.

With them (usually) taking less damage in a battle than their compatriots, we were finding that the berserker wasn't using their hit die as much as the rest of the party. A top off and then the rest goes unused. Giving them an alternative to spend the resource has given the barbarian player a reason to use frenzy more often if they have the means to recover from the exhaustion faster, has given the barbarian player something else to do with their short rests, and also gives them an in and out of character reason to stay cozy with the groups potion makers and heal casters, heh.

[Escribblings]

With them (usually) taking less damage in a battle than their compatriots, we were finding that the berserker wasn't using their hit die as much as the rest of the party. A top off and then the rest goes unused. Giving them an alternative to spend the resource has given the barbarian player a reason to use frenzy more often if they have the means to recover from the exhaustion faster, has given the barbarian player something else to do with their short rests, and also gives them an in and out of character reason to stay cozy with the groups potion makers and heal casters, heh.

That actually makes sense

[Specter]

This comes from actual play experience: all you need to do is trade that worthless level 10 Intimidating Rage for "you no longer get exhausted after a frenzy". Or keep them both. It won't break your game, believe me.

[Dimers]

I'd like to give the barbarian more of a reason to short-rest, so I'd do something like "You may make an additional single attack as a bonus action X times, regain all uses with a short or long rest" ... start with about 3 uses, go up to 7 or 8 based on barbarian level. Maybe have that pool of uses also feed use of Intimidating Presence as a bonus action.

[Lombra]

Solutions that came to my mind in order of strength:

•While frenzying you gain an extra bonus action with which you can only perform one melee weapon attack. This makes dual wielding and PAM useful to the barbarian, effectively glorifying PAM once again. Why bonus action and not action? To limit the usage of strength checks to only two times a turn.

•Berserkers can heal one level of exhaustion on short or long rests. Or *rage bonus* levels on short or long rests. This makes exhaustion dangerous in controlled doses spread in an adventure day, and gives more utility to the berserker (being able to recover quickly from exhaustion generally allows you to make crazyer stuff)

• Berserkers ignore exhaustion levels while raging (by extent, while frenzying too), no exceptions needed, this balances itself with the never-ending rages and the growing amount of rages that you get while leveling up to unlimited uses.

I think that these are in-line with the general simplistic feel that 5e has and are easy to understand and play.

Edited "proficiency bonus" to "rage bonus" to prevent eventual malevolent dipping.