Multiclassing a Warlock/Paladin help.

[Slarg]

So my group recently got back together from an extended break (GM didn't have internet and half of the players are from out of state, so we couldn't Skype them in) and we were debating on starting over from scratch due to the GM having lost his place in the story so to speak.

So my idea for a new character would be a Warlock Paladin multiclass, due to both of them being Charisma based characters and both of them capable of fighting in the frontlines, along with Eldritch Bolt being just that good of a ranged attack for 1 level investment. However, I'm stuck on what kind of Warlock/Paladin I would want to make, as there are two ideas I have and both of them seem really good from a roleplaying and game playing perspective.



The Archfey + Oath of the Ancients
Bercilek Hautdesert, the Green Knight, at your service. Definitely more of the Heal/Tank paladin than anything. The idea of being able to Misty Escape to an ally when they need a shield/healing seems like it would be really powerful in keeping the squishies alive, and Eldritch Bolt would allow me to keep damaging the opposition while moving back to the frontline to assist the Beast Druid/Barbarian we have in the party. Then there's the fact that both of these options give an abundance of crowd control which would also really help the group.

For Roleplaying, he's a Chaotic Good type of character, exactly like Bercilek Hautdesert in "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight"; he'll let you chop off his head knowing he'll survive because he wants to see if you, as a mortal, will hold up your end of the bargain and let him chop off yours. Not sure what Race to make him though. And he'll be Pact of the Chain, so he'll have a little sprite following him around saying "Hey, Listen!"



The Fiend + Oath of Vengeance + Tiefling
Damage, damage, and some surprising amount of tankability due to Dark One's Blessing. I honestly think this is what most people thought I was going to want help with when they saw the title; Divine Smite + Lifedrinker + Hurl Through Hell is a ton of damage all at once, and it's not like the character doesn't have utility with Lay on hands. That's not even going into stuff like Vow of Emnity and Hex as well. I do kind of worry about this type of build being hated by the group, but one of the players isn't going to be happy with anything someone makes, so that's not an issue.

For Roleplaying, he's a Lawful Good type of character. He became a Paladin in order to prove that not all Tieflings are evil and to find camaraderie in a holy cause..... but started manifesting hellish abilities due to his lineage. He still fights the good fight despite having a crisis of faith and worrying about being turned on by his fellow paladins.





I'm not quite sure what I want to do with either character and I'm not sure which character would be better for the group (newer players). I know I want to multiclass both and crank my Charisma up to 20 ASAP though, for the spellcasting abilities plus Eldritch Bolt's Agonizing Blast being a respectable ranged option.

Any pointers/help, guys? I want to avoid The Great Old One since I feel it would go best with the Oathbreaker Paladin (Undead and humanoid slaves!) but that's A) more for an evil campaign and B) Probably best left to more experienced playgroups.

[Biggstick]

How many levels are you looking to take in each class? You've said some pretty high level abilities for Warlock, which makes me think you're considering something where you have 10+ levels of Warlock.

Depending on how many levels you're trying to take, have you considered just going with a level of Fighter and going 18-19 levels of Warlock? It's tons easier to get by the RP aspect of having to maintain a pact with some entity and your Paladin Oath tenets (and/or faith). You can still be a member of a knightly group if you want, but you don't actually have anything mechanically tied to it, as a plain Fighter just has the abilities naturally.

This is just an initial thought is all. Elaborate as to what kind of game you're building this character for, and what levels you expect to reach and more help will come.

[Citan]

Hi!

I think both concepts are good, although your second one will probably require much subtlety to handle.
Because you make a Pact with a demon, he may very well ask you to do some evil actions, that are not correlated to your "vengeance", so you may break your oath.
Or just struggle as a player to roleplay the struggle between your heart values and your pact.
With that said, if you are confident, go for it! It should be very interesting.

If you want to match leveling with RP though, for the second one, I feel you should keep Warlock levels low (Fiend=evil) and prioritize Vengeance (~neutral or good).
For the first one, I'd say there is no strong string attached to Fey so any split would be fair (at least Paladin 7 though whatever happens, because the aura is great).
Also, before thinking about a lvl 20 character, try to figure out how you want to play at level 6 and 10. This should help you determine which features of each class fit your concept are feel fun to you, clarifying in turn how to level.

Have fun!

[xyianth]

When it comes to multiclassing in 5e, the most important question to ask is what you want your character to do. If roleplaying is your primary focus, the actual mechanics of the multiclass don't matter much. If you are trying to build toward a specific ability or interaction, then you need to plan your multiclassing out a bit.

Paladin and warlock synergize well, although honestly warlock synergizes well with lots of classes. Generally, this particular combination takes one of two paths:

Defense oriented eldritch blast spammer: tends to go paladin 1/warlock 3/paladin +1/warlock +1/paladin +6/warlock +8. This gets you heavy armor and shields + agonizing repelling eldritch blasts by level 3. The tome pact is especially useful here to pick up a charisma based shillelagh cantrip allowing your rare melee strikes to be based on the same stat as your ranged attack.
Offense oriented smite spammer: tends to go paladin 1/warlock 3/paladin +1/warlock +6/paladin +9. This has the same starting build as the previous one, but then quickly ramps up the pact magic slot level for increased smite damage.


If you are open to more multiclassing, I highly recommend starting any charisma based caster character as a sorcerer at 1st level. The extra hp, permanent mage armor, 4 cantrips, sorcerer spells (shield, feather fall, etc...), and con save proficiency are well worth it. Both of the above builds can be improved by incorporating some sorcerer levels in the progression for more slots and metamagic as well. Although paladins are considered strength based, a multiclass paladin/warlock doesn't actually have to use strength for anything. (unless they wear heavy armor) You can do fine in medium armor with a 14 dex and a shield. (still need 13 str to multiclass though)

[Lombra]

Most would suggest paladin 3/warlock 17 just to get max level smites on short rests, 9th level spell (namely: foresight), and the flavour of your sacred oath. Now this in my opinion is the most effective build, you can either go S&B or PAM, needless to say that fiend patron works the best in this set up, but I'd go for what you like (and can roleplay).

[Millstone85]

He became a Paladin in order to prove that not all Tieflings are evil and to find camaraderie in a holy cause..... but started manifesting hellish abilities due to his lineage.
Because you make a Pact with a demon, he may very well ask you to do some evil actions, that are not correlated to your "vengeance", so you may break your oath.I believe the idea here is that the character would be played like a "fiendish-bloodline sorcerer". There is no patron.


It's tons easier to get by the RP aspect of having to maintain a pact with some entity and your Paladin Oath tenets (and/or faith).In the case of Archfey+Ancients, the fey patron could be attuned to the oath and could even be a deity of nature. It is very easy to reconcile.


I want to avoid The Great Old One since I feel it would go best with the Oathbreaker Paladin (Undead and humanoid slaves!) but that's A) more for an evil campaign and B) Probably best left to more experienced playgroups.The Great Old One isn't a better minion-maker than the Archfey. For instance, both expanded spell lists include dominate beast and dominate person. And I think Oathbreaker goes best with the Undying, if only for the undead theme.

[Crusher]

The Great Old One isn't a better minion-maker than the Archfey. For instance, both expanded spell lists include dominate beast and dominate person. And I think Oathbreaker goes best with the Undying, if only for the undead theme.

Its hard to overlook the power of making thralls.

As for overall level selection, while I agree that at 20 Paladin 3/Warlock 17 is good, I wonder how often while leveling Paladin 3 beats Paladin 2 + an extra Warlock level (for an eventually 2/18 build). Now, obviously there's RP value in taking an oath, so if that's the goal then that's what should be done.

But looking at it from a game-play standpoint, taking Paladin 3 (instead of a level of Warlock) gives you 1 extra level 1 spell slot, +1 hp, immunity to disease, and your Oath which will grant some extra possible spells and Channel Divinity options ranging from 1 minute of Advantage per short rest to a bonus to hit or a single shot of 2d10 extra damage (Treachery). That's a pretty good package of stuff.

On the other hand, the value of the extra Warlock level is good too, though it mostly involves pushing things back by a level. Your second attack (assuming Blade) comes at 8 instead of 7, ASI's get pushed back a level (you won't get your first one until level 7 instead of 6), and all your Warlock spell slots get pushed back by a level. 3rd level slots at level 8 instead of 7, first Mystic Arcanum at 14 instead of 13, etc. Also, most of the better Paladin Oath bonus spells can be at least partially handled via Warlock spells (Hex vs Hunter's Mark, Protection from Good and Evil vs Armor of Agathys, etc).

At 20, none of this really matters, but on the trek up to 20, it may. Its probably worth thinking about what level the campaign is likely to reach, how that will impact your options (if the campaign ends around 16, you might never get Create Thrall) and how how much of the campaign will take place while you're waiting impatiently for that 2nd attack vs the solid pack of abilities Paladin 3 brings immediately.

[Millstone85]

Its hard to overlook the power of making thralls.It is actually very easy. Create Thrall doesn't create anything that even remotely resembles a thrall, unless the DM decides to give a massive fluff-buff to the feature. Even then, you get one (1) thrall at a time and not before your 14th warlock level.

[Slarg]

Thanks for the replies guys!


How many levels are you looking to take in each class? You've said some pretty high level abilities for Warlock, which makes me think you're considering something where you have 10+ levels of Warlock.

Depending on how many levels you're trying to take, have you considered just going with a level of Fighter and going 18-19 levels of Warlock? It's tons easier to get by the RP aspect of having to maintain a pact with some entity and your Paladin Oath tenets (and/or faith). You can still be a member of a knightly group if you want, but you don't actually have anything mechanically tied to it, as a plain Fighter just has the abilities naturally.

This is just an initial thought is all. Elaborate as to what kind of game you're building this character for, and what levels you expect to reach and more help will come.

Well, I know we will start at Level 3 again (My group considers levels 1 and 2 to be useless fluff; no one wants to fight 50 different groups of Kobolds...) and we'll be playing up until we get bored with the game (So who knows how long that'll last).

I do want the Paladin for the ability to wreath my weapon in fire/channel the energy of the Archfey though. As for worrying about the Pacts/Oaths, I figured that the Archfey was the source of the Ancient's Oath (Kind of a Lich King from WoW type deal; he donned the armor and the Archfey put a spirit into him that grants him extended power), and that the Fiend character never made the pact, his father/mother/granddad/grandma did and he's just the firstborn male type thing.


Hi!
If you want to match leveling with RP though, for the second one, I feel you should keep Warlock levels low (Fiend=evil) and prioritize Vengeance (~neutral or good).
For the first one, I'd say there is no strong string attached to Fey so any split would be fair (at least Paladin 7 though whatever happens, because the aura is great).
Also, before thinking about a lvl 20 character, try to figure out how you want to play at level 6 and 10. This should help you determine which features of each class fit your concept are feel fun to you, clarifying in turn how to level.

Have fun!

I was thinking that the Fiend/Vengeance would be more Warlock (To represent him eventually giving into his power and trying to use it for good), while the Archfey/Ancients would be more Paladin than Warlock (He's the Thorn of the Grove, a middling fighter who traded his body for increased power), but I wasn't sure which would actually be better. I'm just kind of generally looking for guidance on multiclassing, as I've never really done it before.


When it comes to multiclassing in 5e, the most important question to ask is what you want your character to do. If roleplaying is your primary focus, the actual mechanics of the multiclass don't matter much. If you are trying to build toward a specific ability or interaction, then you need to plan your multiclassing out a bit.

Paladin and warlock synergize well, although honestly warlock synergizes well with lots of classes. Generally, this particular combination takes one of two paths:

Defense oriented eldritch blast spammer: tends to go paladin 1/warlock 3/paladin +1/warlock +1/paladin +6/warlock +8. This gets you heavy armor and shields + agonizing repelling eldritch blasts by level 3. The tome pact is especially useful here to pick up a charisma based shillelagh cantrip allowing your rare melee strikes to be based on the same stat as your ranged attack.
Offense oriented smite spammer: tends to go paladin 1/warlock 3/paladin +1/warlock +6/paladin +9. This has the same starting build as the previous one, but then quickly ramps up the pact magic slot level for increased smite damage.


If you are open to more multiclassing, I highly recommend starting any charisma based caster character as a sorcerer at 1st level. The extra hp, permanent mage armor, 4 cantrips, sorcerer spells (shield, feather fall, etc...), and con save proficiency are well worth it. Both of the above builds can be improved by incorporating some sorcerer levels in the progression for more slots and metamagic as well. Although paladins are considered strength based, a multiclass paladin/warlock doesn't actually have to use strength for anything. (unless they wear heavy armor) You can do fine in medium armor with a 14 dex and a shield. (still need 13 str to multiclass though)

The Smite Spammer was what I imagined the Fiend to be, so it's good to know that's actually viable. Having said that, I *never* would have thought of Repelling Blast along with everything, turning my character into a mobile missile platform with Shilleleigh and Smite to keep the damage coming in close. That has the added benefit of extra CC for the party too.

Thanks!


Most would suggest paladin 3/warlock 17 just to get max level smites on short rests, 9th level spell (namely: foresight), and the flavour of your sacred oath. Now this in my opinion is the most effective build, you can either go S&B or PAM, needless to say that fiend patron works the best in this set up, but I'd go for what you like (and can roleplay).

I was thinking of going S&B for general usage but when the Smiting needed to happen have my Pact Weapon be a Greatsword or Pole Arm and just going HAM on enemies. Helps seal the idea that he's a holy knight that got lumped with a bad power set he doesn't really like to call upon unless it's absolutely necessary.


I believe the idea here is that the character would be played like a "fiendish-bloodline sorcerer". There is no patron.

In the case of Archfey+Ancients, the fey patron could be attuned to the oath and could even be a deity of nature. It is very easy to reconcile.

The Great Old One isn't a better minion-maker than the Archfey. For instance, both expanded spell lists include dominate beast and dominate person. And I think Oathbreaker goes best with the Undying, if only for the undead theme.

You are correct on the first two :D

I would mostly want the Thralls for the ability to also dominate social encounters as well; the ability to Enthrall a servant at a castle gives us the entire layout of the castle and whatever else he overhears, so while it's not a combat min-max it does give you an out to situations that aren't about combat. I dunno though.

By Undying, do you mean Undying Light from the Unearthed Arcana? Or is there another Warlock patron I don't know about? Always glad to see more of those.