[LONG] May have piled more on my plate than I thought. Help me sort this out, please?

[Xaroth]

So. I'm going to be providing a TL;DR, and a spoiler box, the TL;DR is going to just be as summed up as I feel like I can possibly make it, while the spoiler box shows the amount of thought I've put into this all.


So, over the course of the past...4 months, perhaps? My group of 6 went down to a group of 5, and then in around a month ago went back up to a group of 6 with a new addition. For a while I just sorta winged it to see if they really did want to play D&D, as it was a new group, and I really wasn't sure how much they were going to like it. Or more specifically, how much they were going to like me.

Much to my pleasant surprise, they love it! They love the world that I set up for them, how I brought humor into it from anything from the slow talking Half-Giant that traded a tome of leadership and influence for a rod of healing, to the Dungeon that I lazily called "The Dungeon Labelled Dungeon, with a little arrow pointing to the door of the dungeon".

The important characters for this whole thing are as follows:


The Party:

A Human Knight, who ensures that his party remains safe but can't seem to roll good enough to hit anything ever. Seriously, his luck is abominable.
The Gnome Barbarian, who will attempt to murder/harm anybody that calls him small. He suffers from amnesia, and doesn't remember his parents, but wishes to find them.
A Halfling Archivist/Binder/Anima Mage, who...does...things? He's a very curious fellow, and helps keep the party buffed and powerful. He's cunning, smart, and even managed to keep a Pit Fiend from killing him once (even though the Pit Fiend wasn't going to kill him).
An Elven Rogue/Assassin, who tried to murder Krampus by dropping on him from above. He failed, but hey, he tried. He was a killer for hire for a kingdom far away, but left them behind due to disagreements. Big disagreements.
The Living Skeleton Wizard. He's the oldest character in the group, having spent hundreds of years wandering aimlessly to try and find out the truth about his curse that made him a skeleton. He's...he's squishy. Really squishy.
Ultimately, the Human Cleric, who clerics more than the other members of the party can cleric. He hasn't really got a backstory yet, he's the most recent member of the group. He drew Flames from the Deck of Many Things and gained the enmity of a Horned Devil - Cleric was level 7 at the time - that believed the Cleric to be the cause of his grievances, and only survived the ordeal thanks to the other members of the party, who banded together to draw aggro - primarily the Knight - and eventually murder the Devil, which I didn't expect them to do but weakened so that they stood at least a somewhat fair chance against it.

The other characters:

A Pit Fiend, who has taken an interest in the party. One of the mid-ranking Pit Fiends amongst the King of Hell's army. He appeared twice to the party, the first simply out of curiosity, and the second because he wanted to reward them for defeating his rogue underling (the Horned Devil, mentioned above). I almost want to have him care about his underlings and comrades, but I'm not sure if that's in the character of a Devil to do? It could lead to interesting plot development.
A previous member of the party, a Dragonborn Warlock (custom made to be a Dragonborn of Schrador). The person left for reasons I won't disclose, but their character was involved in unleashing Hell on Earth. More on that at 7.
The Guild Master of the guild of Naga City, a Force Dragon. He was holding the portal to/from Hell closed on Schrador's orders/Geas, but when disturbed, decided 'forget it, I'm out'.

The Deities involved:

Schrador, a Vampiric Red Dragon that earned Godhood by jumping through hoops labelled Genocide. He rendered a race extinct simply by slaughtering them all, and from there climbed the ranks to becoming a lesser/intermediate deity, not sure which. He's a necromancy focused being, that commands undead and sends them out to annoy the party.
The King of Hell, a creature that whilst not explicitly a demon or devil, predates them both. The King of Hell's name is unknown, but what's known is that the King's name is forgotten, or expunged from the annals of history. The King stands at the top of the deity pyramid alongside only Death itself. I've yet to truly figure out what I want to do with the King, as Schrador cannot hold a candle to him in power, but I want there to be conflict between Hell and Schrador. So, I'm not sure.


A/N: I wrote the write-up of all the characters after I wrote a lot of the stuff below this, so I might repeat myself myself.

Now, the setting of the campaign is primarily influenced by the players' will, though I must admit I did end up giving them guidance towards the series of events that they caused. Namely, uh, there was a Force Dragon (haven't determined size, pondered giving spellcasting levels for invisibility so that it wouldn't have to be Great Wyrm in the event that they fight it) sleeping invisibly on top of a portal that was only hindered by the dragon's presence. They didn't know that the dragon was sleeping there, as they were first level and he was invisible, so naturally when they saw this hidden dark room - and heard very loud, very heavy snoring - they proceeded to cast light into the room and shout out into the emptiness. This prompted the invisible being to leave to sleep elsewhere, and the force with which he left caused things to crumble. I'm aware that under normal circumstances a dragon might murder those that disturb their slumber but this Force Dragon was actually the Guild Master of the guild from the nearby city, acting on someone else's orders.

So y'know how I said that the Force Dragon was hindering the portal? It was a portal to Hell. Or rather, to and from Hell. As soon as the portal was no longer hindered, demons and devils of all shapes and sizes spewed forth from it, and they narrowly escaped from the cave before the entrance was closed as the demons and devils started to band together and work together, formulating a plan for combating possible threats on the current planet that I'm calling Earth for simplicity's sake, whilst they determine whether they want to attempt to take over Earth, or if they want to attempt to attempt to live amongst the humans in some form of harmony. Naturally, demons want to take it over, whilst devils want to attempt to live amongst them as various other races do: The nearby city is the largest one for hundreds of miles, and it's called "Naga City", as it was accomplished through peace between all Nagas (Nagas in my universe all have arms, granted to them long ago by someone unnamed). As such, it's comprised almost entirely of them, but they don't discriminate. Criminals are criminals, those who don't disrupt the peace are welcome, those who do disrupt the peace face the consequences. Think of it like the best police force in the world. The devils use this as their grounds for being able to live without conflict amongst other species from other planes and other histories. They're reasonable, and understand that there's probably going to be creatures as powerful as them in a different plane, if not possibly more powerful though they think that's unlikely.

The demons...uh, not so much. But I haven't really thought about them beyond, they just want chaos and destruction.

Now, the Knight in the group managed to acquire a Weapon of Legacy at a pretty early level, a custom made one modelled after [Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker] that is named as such. The quest that rewarded him with the weapon required him to murder an Air Elemental, one that happened to be under the servitude of Schrador. Due to that, Schrador believes that with his sole Dragonborn disappearing from the party, and then the party murdering beings under his servitude, they intend to fight him. So he's begun sending more and more Undead after the party, as mentioned above. In fact, the second floor of the Dungeon Labelled Dungeon was a floor of Devils the first time they went into it. Very lovely, very decorated, and such. When they returned to it, however, all of the devils and such in the floor had been murdered brutally and the entire place was just overrun with Undead, the place had been torn apart and blood and guts were everywhere. Schrador had decided that he wanted to take over that floor, to make them realise they really shouldn't be messing with him, but they don't know that Schrador is responsible for this yet. In fact, they don't even know that Schrador is actually a Vampiric Red Dragon. They think he's a really really high ranking demon/devil.

So...this is where my dilemma begins, as this gave me an idea. I could say that this is Schrador giving the party a bit of a helping hand with expendable resources, so they can even get a bit stronger at the expense of Schrador's own minions. And then it turns into something new.

The Demons and the Devils especially are not going to be happy with Schrador's intervention, Schrador's using the devils as though they're some kinda thing to be used as examples. Of course they're gonna be unhappy about it. They're gonna want revenge.

The primary goal of the campaign is essentially going to be the following three options:


Side with Schrador. With Schrador's assistance, they can take on Hell's armies, and eventually slaughter them all. Devils and Demons would be taken to the brink of extinction themselves, and there would be demigods that the party would have to fight, but they would possibly gain the enmity of the King? I think I would just have the King go and reconstruct his army, or find something else to do to occupy himself. Schrador would climb more in power, and would reward them handsomely for siding with him, possibly aiding them in becoming deities themselves. Naturally, the big problem with this, is that there's two or three characters that are Good, while two characters are Lawful Good, I believe. So siding with a monster that commands the Undead may not be alright in their books.
Side with Hell. With Hell's assistance they can take on Schrador's armies of the dead, eventually kill Schrador himself, and gain the alliance/favor of Hell, and possibly even the King himself, if he cares enough. They're likely to be rewarded well for this but not nearly as well as Schrador would reward them, though Demons and Devils - or at least Devils - would be able to begin life on Earth, whilst the King could look after Hell. Of course, there's the possibility that on a whim the King might just go "...this is boring. Kill them." and then suddenly there's a violent outburst everywhere in the world, but y'know, it's only a possibility. This also carries the same problem as before, however: The Lawful Good members of the party would very likely not be okay with this.
Side with Neither. Defeat both. It would take the intervention of other deities, or it would take them spending a long time getting powerful, but they would be able to both kill Schrador and push Hell's armies back from whence they came. This one would yield the least reward, possibly an artifact or two, but would have the best campaign "ending".


But see, while I DO have a primary goal for the campaign that I want the players to work towards, I also have asked players to come up with their own goals that they want to work towards for their character's sake.


The Elf Rogue wants to eventually lead a rebellion against the kingdom he used to work for, as he despises it and the things that they made him do. If I recall correctly they blackmailed him into one last job, and then the Rogue took what he could and left, and never looked back. the kingdom is pretty much a quarter-way across the world from where they are, but I've been keeping track of things that have been going on there, so that this character can stumble upon happenings. e.g. the king recently passed away, and so the Crown Prince has taken up the throne.
The Gnome Barbarian wants to find his parents and realise the truth of his past, and what caused him to lose his memories. Above all though, he just wants to find his mum and dad again. It's a nice goal to have, and I've been keeping tabs on his mum and dad this entire time as well. They're settled down somewhere nice at the moment.
The Halfling Archivist wants to discover the King of Hell's name, the one forgotten/expunged from the annals, as he refuses to believe that it cannot be found anywhere. And he's right to do so: There is somewhere he can learn it. But it's far. Quite far.
The Living Skeleton Wizard wants to find out the truth behind his curse, as stated above, and hopefully return to his former self. So far, there are two people that characters in the campaign have met that would know where to even begin as far as his curse goes.
The Human Knight isn't really the character-building kinda guy unfortunately, so he doesn't have a personal goal, and the Cleric is still undecided also.


And now, for my dilemma: How in the hell do I manage all this? I want to do all of this but I'm not sure where to begin. I don't want to split the party, but man, it's going to be difficult getting all of their personal quests completed while also somewhat keeping on track with the main quest, when they realise what it is.

I think that about covers the in-depth explanation. TL;DR time?


TL;DR

Characters unleash Hell on Earth.
Characters were fighting hell, but thanks to big evil dragon god Schrador, are fighting Undead for now.
Party can either side with Schrador against Hell, side with Hell against Schrador, or side with neither and try and beat both.
At the same time, elf wants to lead rebellion against old kingdom, mr. skeltal wants to learn truth about spoopy curse, book nerd wants to learn King of Hell's true name, and gnome guy wants to learn about parents.
Feel like I put too much on my plate, don't know where to start handling things.
Need help.
Pls.

If someone actually takes the time to read that super goddamn long spoiler tag, I will be amazed, and eternally grateful. Like holy crap, I don't deserve you.

Thank you for your time!

[Swaoeaeieu]

Seems you have some big plot hooks. like the war and undead. And some small ones like the gnomes parents and the skeletons curse. First step would be to find a way to turn the small hooks into bigger ones. Making them part of the bigger hooks so all the players have a big motivation to do the big things you have going on. As a DM i would either make the choise to divide about half the parties desires on one side and the other half at the other side of the big conflict and let the party decide wich side to eliminate first.

But for new players that might be too much inner conflict. So you could make the choise for them and hide the parents and secret of the curse among the king of hells men. (demons deals hide a lot of dark secrets). So everyone will want to destroy hell, wich is a noble thing to do all by itself.

Just spitballing from the little i read. My advise: stay calm and look at your options. To me it is always suprising how easy it is to change the story to fit all the floating parts going around.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, so reating the spoiler ed text it us not as long as you implied thankfully. Have the war between undead and He'll be a backdrop. Occasionally it crops up for the players but ultimately they will not need to concern themselves with it. Thankfully the characters quests can be tied in as well: the rebels offer the elf aid in the war if the party helps overthrow the kingdom; the place where the gnome's parents are is in the way of a moving army and party need so warn them; the King of Hell sends agents to scrub away the mention of his name an the party finds out and rushes there first.

Don't have them constantly battling the enemy armies until you can clear out their personal side quests first. Beaides, romping through an army at high level is more viable than doing it at low.

[Xaroth]

Seems you have some big plot hooks. like the war and undead. And some small ones like the gnome's parents and the skeleton's curse. First step would be to find a way to turn the small hooks into bigger ones. Making them part of the bigger hooks so all the players have a big motivation to do the big things you have going on. As a DM I would either make the choice to divide about half the party's desires on one side and the other half at the other side of the big conflict and let the party decide which side to eliminate first.

But for new players that might be too much inner conflict. So you could make the choice for them and hide the parents and secret of the curse among the king of hell's men. (demon's deals hide a lot of dark secrets). So everyone will want to destroy hell, which is a noble thing to do all by itself.

Just spitballing from the little I read. My advice: stay calm and look at your options. To me it is always surprising how easy it is to change the story to fit all the floating parts going around.

I saw your signature and figured I would help where I could!

And I suppose so...I hadn't really considered that they could've taken his parents just, based on how they usually act in my universe. Even now, they're still setting up, as it's only been a few months since they came to Earth. I'll think about that.


Okay, so reating the spoiler ed text it us not as long as you implied thankfully. Have the war between undead and He'll be a backdrop. Occasionally it crops up for the players but ultimately they will not need to concern themselves with it. Thankfully the characters quests can be tied in as well: the rebels offer the elf aid in the war if the party helps overthrow the kingdom; the place where the gnome's parents are is in the way of a moving army and party need so warn them; the King of Hell sends agents to scrub away the mention of his name an the party finds out and rushes there first.

Don't have them constantly battling the enemy armies until you can clear out their personal side quests first. Beaides, romping through an army at high level is more viable than doing it at low.

It's not? Hm, I figured it might've been much longer than I thought just, because I've been writing it for the past 3 hours, and thinking things over before putting them in. :confused:

Oooo, I like the idea of rebels offering aid in the coming war if they help to overthrow the kingdom. Right now they aren't fighting the armies, the demons/devils have kinda set up a dummy dungeon of sorts to distract the heroes, and that's what they're clearing right now, except as mentioned before, it was overtaken by Schrador with his Undead.

It's much easier to just sit back and look at it now that I've realised I can kinda, tie the hooks into each other.

[Pleh]

Defeating either the dragon or the armies of hell seem to me to be late game objectives. I would focus on tasking the party to some actionable step towards the goal of one of the three main endings, but use the character arcs as stepping stones.

Let's say some trickster god pops in and gives the party a wink, a nod, and a cryptic hint about a magic mcguffin that will help them defeat their enemies.

Once you have them pointed in the right direction, the party happens to stumble into the Barbarian’s tribe, who gives clues about his origin and where his parents have gone. Proceeding in their next step along the path, they find themselves coming upon the Rogue assassin's old kingdom home. They can try diplomatic solutions at first, but a king that blackmails assassins into service probably won't care to cooperate with good aligned characters unless they can get something out of the deal. A quick side quest and when the lawful goods see the corruption in the kingdom, they may want to help their friend free his people. After all, they need a cooperative government to aid in their quest and thesee people need help.

[Xaroth]

Defeating either the dragon or the armies of hell seem to me to be late game objectives. I would focus on tasking the party to some actionable step towards the goal of one of the three main endings, but use the character arcs as stepping stones.

Let's say some trickster god pops in and gives the party a wink, a nod, and a cryptic hint about a magic mcguffin that will help them defeat their enemies.

Once you have them pointed in the right direction, the party happens to stumble into the Barbarian’s tribe, who gives clues about his origin and where his parents have gone. Proceeding in their next step along the path, they find themselves coming upon the Rogue assassin's old kingdom home. They can try diplomatic solutions at first, but a king that blackmails assassins into service probably won't care to cooperate with good aligned characters unless they can get something out of the deal. A quick side quest and when the lawful goods see the corruption in the kingdom, they may want to help their friend free his people. After all, they need a cooperative government to aid in their quest and thesee people need help.

The trickster god thing works in quite well, they've already met one such God. He's the Holder of the Deck of Many Things. There are seven in this universe, that are called the Seven Suits. They're going to be completely optional bosses, as they get towards the later game, but it'd be difficult for them to even find out how to encounter them. But that's not really important right now, what matters is that I have seven of these guys I could use as tricksters!

Also, I believe I did say in my original post, but I may have forgotten to mention it, the king that blackmailed him has died, and the Crown Prince has taken over. Of course, he'll be about as bad as his Father, but y'know. The idea isn't bad. I'll see if I can do something with that. Thank you! And thanks to the others that have responded, too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since you've got a war on, I'm gonna suggest giving heroes of battle a once over. There's also a little something in the back of complete warrior too.

Do you actually know how a war is conducted; Supply lines, battlefronts, strategy, that sort of thing? Granted, undead and fiends complicate matters somewhat but a grasp of the basics can make a lot of difference.

[John Longarrow]

Something I don't think you counted on but may become very relevant if the PCs start going after their own goals:

4. Side with Neither. fight neither.

What happens if the characters decide "This is too much, lets head someplace safer"? Unless you've talked to your players ahead of time AND they want to play a "Save the world" game, this is a valid option. If you try to force them to be involved when the players are not interested, the game fall apart rather quickly.

Also, does the campaign end when the world is saved? If yes then any "Character reward" is mostly useless as a motivator. They won't be playing the characters any more so giving them divinity won't be much of a reward.

[Xaroth]

Since you've got a war on, I'm gonna suggest giving heroes of battle a once over. There's also a little something in the back of complete warrior too.

Do you actually know how a war is conducted; Supply lines, battlefronts, strategy, that sort of thing? Granted, undead and fiends complicate matters somewhat but a grasp of the basics can make a lot of difference.

I'll keep an eye on Heroes of Battle and CW, thanks for the recommendation!

I do know some things, but I've been juggling a lot so I haven't been focusing on it a whole lot. I've been having the demons/devils setting up in the cave with the portal for the past few months now, so that they're prepared to fight back in the event of an ambush, and so far Schrador has only sent out mindless Undead with simple goals and basically zerg rushed the floor of the dungeon that he took over, hence the huge amount of blood and guts everywhere.


Something I don't think you counted on but may become very relevant if the PCs start going after their own goals:

4. Side with Neither. fight neither.

What happens if the characters decide "This is too much, lets head someplace safer"? Unless you've talked to your players ahead of time AND they want to play a "Save the world" game, this is a valid option. If you try to force them to be involved when the players are not interested, the game fall apart rather quickly.

Also, does the campaign end when the world is saved? If yes then any "Character reward" is mostly useless as a motivator. They won't be playing the characters any more so giving them divinity won't be much of a reward.

I did take that into account, but I didn't include it because it basically has no relevance to this. If they decide they want nothing to do with it, all of this basically becomes irrelevant, aside from the fact that it's happening. They can go off and do their own thing while the possibly end of the world takes place around them, I'm not gonna stop them from doing that.

The campaign doesn't end when the world is saved, once the world is saved there are sorta, post-game bosses for them to fight. The Seven Suits, the Sinister 7...I like the number 7, in case you couldn't tell. I haven't really thought about post-game motivations or plot though, right now I'm trying to handle this.

[John Longarrow]

And just to make sure, since its different than standard, you have one place that both Devils and Demons come from? And in your world they don't kill each other on sight? I need to bring this up only because they would normally be trying their best to kill each other and not worry to much about anything else.

Likewise you have a setting in which Devils could be viewed as someone you would be willing to live next to? Most setting have Devils as major bad guys who generally don't play well with others.

[Xaroth]

And just to make sure, since its different than standard, you have one place that both Devils and Demons come from? And in your world they don't kill each other on sight? I need to bring this up only because they would normally be trying their best to kill each other and not worry to much about anything else.

Likewise you have a setting in which Devils could be viewed as someone you would be willing to live next to? Most setting have Devils as major bad guys who generally don't play well with others.

Yes, Demons, Devils, and other outsiders from the Abyssal and Infernal planes band together to form Hell: a unified front under the reign of the King of Hell. They dislike each other but work together regardless, as the King of Hell is far more terrifying than anything either side has.

Devils would definitely be frowned upon and unwelcome in most circles, towns, cities and kingdoms: However, Naga City is the nearest one to where the demons and devils have made their base, and being comprised of race variants that overcame their differences, as stated before, they do not discriminate and will welcome all, and only throw out those who would disturb the peace. Demon, devil, beast, or man. It would be their first step in learning about the civilization of Earth.

Generally, I avoid having any set-in-stone discrimination in the world. The only exceptions are demons and devils who dislike each other but are essentially forced to get along, and dragons, the chromatic despise the metallic and vice versa.

[SpamCreateWater]

Ask your players for a general build path and if there are any interesting character developments and changes they would like to explore.
No use showing a test-of-faith arc to a PC that doesn't have that 1% of doubt. On the other hand, if a player does say, "I have a spare feat at 9th level, I was thinking about taking Wild Cohort/Leadership/Martial Study." You can go, "Ding. I have an idea," and then bring on the foreshadowing.
I get as many ideas for encounters/plots from my players as I do from myself. Whether they be in game, or when I work with them to create their characters.

Break the goals into "long term" or "team payoff" and "short term" or "specific person payoff". Have a couple of smaller/specific quests before a larger/team quest. But try to tie the smaller quests in.
Unless your group is a tightly knit family, it's somehow related to a team related goal, or it's a terribly short quest then most of your party is going to feel like the past X sessions have been filler episodes while they adventured to find some (semi)random's parents.
Certain quests, like the Archivist's, can either be seen as end of game content or a sub-plot that weaves between several arcs and each one gets them closer to finding/understanding/pronouncing the name. So while it's a specific person's goal it (if it's a true name) could be a major plus for the whole team when it is completed.

Don't be afraid to have an approximate order for when things will be done. Don't set it in concrete, it's not a railroad. But swap things around to suit the current narrative. The BBEG comes through the portal to wreak havoc on the world at the speed of the plot - not in 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, and 46 minutes.
That being said, it never hurts to have a hard line for when the PCs get a bit lazy. :smallwink:

So, enough with generalised (and probably superfluous) information.

Example. Side with Schrador and how things could go down and be linked. Just rambling off the top of my head. Really incoherent. Probably wouldn't advise reading :smalltongue:
Initially continue with the misunderstandings. Then have an intelligent undead finally meet with the party, intent on their doom. He recognises the Gnome. Have him whisper some cryptic message to the Gnome as he dies. The cryptic message mentions the parents and some bloodline curse.
They follow cryptic message to Knight's/Cleric's order's library. Do some research. But what they're after isn't in the non-restricted section. The Knight/Cleric has to climb higher.
Do some jobs for the order. Have them at odds with Schrador/Hell.
Finally group undertakes special mission for the order that takes them to the Elf's kingdom. They are to help the order with some special task.
The task brings them into sight of people who are after the Elf. But remember there's a new ruler! Possibility for social/combat encounters
Another side quest to get back on the good side of the nation. Also gives leads to the art of "Truenaming" or similar. A way to find the name of something even if it has been removed from history.
They now have access to the restricted section! Research time. Bit of CSI stuff and talking to people.
Find info on this bloodline curse. One of the side effects when it goes horribly wrong sounds exactly like what the Skeleton has. The curse, when it goes right, is even worse.
Amongst all this research that they do they find out the BIG secret the order doesn't want you to know! That Undead aren't inherently evil, or made by evil magic.
They find out all this. Someone in the order has been keeping tabs on them and accuses them of working with Schrador. They find out Schrador isn't allied with Hell.
Same time all Hell (lul) breaks loose. Demons have gotten tired or playing nice. The Devils make the best of a bad situation and, knowing they'll be lumped with the Demons, cause more havoc.
The havoc messes with Schrador's plans. He sends some undead lieutenants in to deal with it. The order sends the PCs in to deal with the havoc as well. The undead and the party meet.
The lieutenants recognise the Gnome and the Skeleton's curse. They hold back from attacking the party. They either talk to the party or create a meeting and escape if the party want to fight.
The lieutenants and the PCs uncover the misunderstandings. They then begin to assist the party and give them info on the curse.
The Gnome's parents have the information. They've been hidden away and their memories locked. They were doing research on curing the curse, but it sent them mad.
If the PCs can find a person to hold this information then it could solve a lot of issues as the curse is deadly for both living and undead (for reasons). The list of prerequisites sounds awfully similar to the training of a "Truenamer" or similar.
More quests! They fall in line with Schrador, find a person to be the repository for curse information, find the cure, get some fame, and eventually find the name of the King of Hell.
They use it to bind his powers and kick him and his spawn from this plane, never to return. The end because I'm over typing.

[Cirrylius]

If you're looking to condense or instigate plot hooks, you could have both sides of the war offer character-specific incentives; committed troops, a unique tome, or the name of a retired Gnomish geneologist, say.

[Thaneus]

On another side note, the groups power is wayyyy out of scope regarding internal balance.
you have a knight... ugh not even a fighter... a knight.. with terrible dice luck on top of it. Its nice if the player himself has fun, but how long?
Together with the very powerful build of an archivist+binder+anima mage which is clearly way on the top of the power chard, a pure cleric and a pure wizard the 3 melee guys have a tough time to contribute later on, even more then now.

Either you beef them up with template and items and get the scorn of the three T1 players or help them to find better option and let them retrain to something like crusader (Tome of Battle) for the knight and a mix of barb+warblade (also Tome of Battle)+Champion of Gwynharwyf (Book of Exalted Deeds)/Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East) for the barb. You can use both as quest hooks like finding the lost memory and his parents will cause the change that he actually was a mix of barbarian, warblade all along or he gains access to the prcs. As for the knight let him get a "blessing" from a good god to attain all crusader level. You will see they will perform way better and contribute more and loose nearly nothing from there previous class.
But please talk to the players before forcing this on them. Maybe I picture it complete wrong and they want to stay the way they are and are content, because both guys need to handle more, way more, bookkeeping from then on when using my advice.

If there is an issue with the assassins alignment (normally evil) later one, because i feel like you group has everything across the alignment board, guide him to Avenger Prc (WoTC Web) which is a near 1/1 same class as assassin but with more good and righteous (more towards good, but can be the "preferred roguish" chaotic neutral too) context.
Except everyone is evil, well then I pictured it wrong.

I advice this, because cleric with planar ally and wizard with planar binding get way stronger melee guys as the melee pcs currently are and will ever be and this will lead to frustration and let them feel more then useless because they can not even, at least skill wise, contribute much out of combat (except assassin). And I didn't even start with Mr. Munchkin in a box Archivist (I know he does not need to be a munchkin at all for this)...

For the story:
At first glance its all around the place and I assume that is why you wrote you post altogether.
You see, it is rather simple to tie it all together, as my predecessors already mentioned, use the story of you PCs to get more fire into you campaign. Nothing is more frustrating for a background story writer then letting you well written background story got to waste unused.
Also please let the curse of the wizard be from the sleaze old necromancy god wyrm, please its crying to be that obvious!

Just my 2cp

[Xaroth]

Ask your players for a general build path and if there are any interesting character developments and changes they would like to explore.
No use showing a test-of-faith arc to a PC that doesn't have that 1% of doubt. On the other hand, if a player does say, "I have a spare feat at 9th level, I was thinking about taking Wild Cohort/Leadership/Martial Study." You can go, "Ding. I have an idea," and then bring on the foreshadowing.
I get as many ideas for encounters/plots from my players as I do from myself. Whether they be in game, or when I work with them to create their characters.

Break the goals into "long term" or "team payoff" and "short term" or "specific person payoff". Have a couple of smaller/specific quests before a larger/team quest. But try to tie the smaller quests in.
Unless your group is a tightly knit family, it's somehow related to a team related goal, or it's a terribly short quest then most of your party is going to feel like the past X sessions have been filler episodes while they adventured to find some (semi)random's parents.
Certain quests, like the Archivist's, can either be seen as end of game content or a sub-plot that weaves between several arcs and each one gets them closer to finding/understanding/pronouncing the name. So while it's a specific person's goal it (if it's a true name) could be a major plus for the whole team when it is completed.

Don't be afraid to have an approximate order for when things will be done. Don't set it in concrete, it's not a railroad. But swap things around to suit the current narrative. The BBEG comes through the portal to wreak havoc on the world at the speed of the plot - not in 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, and 46 minutes.
That being said, it never hurts to have a hard line for when the PCs get a bit lazy. :smallwink:

So, enough with generalised (and probably superfluous) information.

Example. Side with Schrador and how things could go down and be linked. Just rambling off the top of my head. Really incoherent. Probably wouldn't advise reading :smalltongue:
Initially continue with the misunderstandings. Then have an intelligent undead finally meet with the party, intent on their doom. He recognises the Gnome. Have him whisper some cryptic message to the Gnome as he dies. The cryptic message mentions the parents and some bloodline curse.
They follow cryptic message to Knight's/Cleric's order's library. Do some research. But what they're after isn't in the non-restricted section. The Knight/Cleric has to climb higher.
Do some jobs for the order. Have them at odds with Schrador/Hell.
Finally group undertakes special mission for the order that takes them to the Elf's kingdom. They are to help the order with some special task.
The task brings them into sight of people who are after the Elf. But remember there's a new ruler! Possibility for social/combat encounters
Another side quest to get back on the good side of the nation. Also gives leads to the art of "Truenaming" or similar. A way to find the name of something even if it has been removed from history.
They now have access to the restricted section! Research time. Bit of CSI stuff and talking to people.
Find info on this bloodline curse. One of the side effects when it goes horribly wrong sounds exactly like what the Skeleton has. The curse, when it goes right, is even worse.
Amongst all this research that they do they find out the BIG secret the order doesn't want you to know! That Undead aren't inherently evil, or made by evil magic.
They find out all this. Someone in the order has been keeping tabs on them and accuses them of working with Schrador. They find out Schrador isn't allied with Hell.
Same time all Hell (lul) breaks loose. Demons have gotten tired or playing nice. The Devils make the best of a bad situation and, knowing they'll be lumped with the Demons, cause more havoc.
The havoc messes with Schrador's plans. He sends some undead lieutenants in to deal with it. The order sends the PCs in to deal with the havoc as well. The undead and the party meet.
The lieutenants recognise the Gnome and the Skeleton's curse. They hold back from attacking the party. They either talk to the party or create a meeting and escape if the party want to fight.
The lieutenants and the PCs uncover the misunderstandings. They then begin to assist the party and give them info on the curse.
The Gnome's parents have the information. They've been hidden away and their memories locked. They were doing research on curing the curse, but it sent them mad.
If the PCs can find a person to hold this information then it could solve a lot of issues as the curse is deadly for both living and undead (for reasons). The list of prerequisites sounds awfully similar to the training of a "Truenamer" or similar.
More quests! They fall in line with Schrador, find a person to be the repository for curse information, find the cure, get some fame, and eventually find the name of the King of Hell.
They use it to bind his powers and kick him and his spawn from this plane, never to return. The end because I'm over typing.

Actually, your spoiler text gave me quite a bit of insight into the kinds of things I could do. Thanks! But, I'm a little worried in case if my group thinks it's a bit too coincidental how much these things are lining up for them.

[John Longarrow]

Personally, I'd base the level of "Coincident" on how you want to portray the BBEG when everything is revealed.

IF you want it to feel like these are strangers tossed together trying to save the world, having each interrupt the main story arc for side quests works well and allows them to "Do what they want when its convenient".

IF you want it to feel like one of the BBEGs (or an equally powerful enemy) is pulling the strings, lots of hints can be dropped before the big "You were the chose ones" scene is revealed before the big boss fight.

[Xaroth]

On another side note, the groups power is wayyyy out of scope regarding internal balance.
you have a knight... ugh not even a fighter... a knight.. with terrible dice luck on top of it. Its nice if the player himself has fun, but how long?
Together with the very powerful build of an archivist+binder+anima mage which is clearly way on the top of the power chard, a pure cleric and a pure wizard the 3 melee guys have a tough time to contribute later on, even more then now.

Either you beef them up with template and items and get the scorn of the three T1 players or help them to find better option and let them retrain to something like crusader (Tome of Battle) for the knight and a mix of barb+warblade (also Tome of Battle)+Champion of Gwynharwyf (Book of Exalted Deeds)/Runescarred Berserker (Unapproachable East) for the barb. You can use both as quest hooks like finding the lost memory and his parents will cause the change that he actually was a mix of barbarian, warblade all along or he gains access to the prcs. As for the knight let him get a "blessing" from a good god to attain all crusader level. You will see they will perform way better and contribute more and loose nearly nothing from there previous class.
But please talk to the players before forcing this on them. Maybe I picture it complete wrong and they want to stay the way they are and are content, because both guys need to handle more, way more, bookkeeping from then on when using my advice.

If there is an issue with the assassins alignment (normally evil) later one, because i feel like you group has everything across the alignment board, guide him to Avenger Prc (WoTC Web) which is a near 1/1 same class as assassin but with more good and righteous (more towards good, but can be the "preferred roguish" chaotic neutral too) context.
Except everyone is evil, well then I pictured it wrong.

I advice this, because cleric with planar ally and wizard with planar binding get way stronger melee guys as the melee pcs currently are and will ever be and this will lead to frustration and let them feel more then useless because they can not even, at least skill wise, contribute much out of combat (except assassin). And I didn't even start with Mr. Munchkin in a box Archivist (I know he does not need to be a munchkin at all for this)...

For the story:
At first glance its all around the place and I assume that is why you wrote you post altogether.
You see, it is rather simple to tie it all together, as my predecessors already mentioned, use the story of you PCs to get more fire into you campaign. Nothing is more frustrating for a background story writer then letting you well written background story got to waste unused.
Also please let the curse of the wizard be from the sleaze old necromancy god wyrm, please its crying to be that obvious!

Just my 2cp

...I mean, this is a group of people who, as a majority, are completely new to D&D. It's not like they have years of optimization experience under their belt where. The current party level is 9. I don't understand how the melee guys have a tough time contributing, they're capable of hitting quite high, and at about level 3 they took out a 5 headed Hydra in two turns, the melee characters alone. Recently too, they took out Krampus, who nearly obliterated one of the melee fighters but the Knight swooped in with Shield Ally and saved him, and then they worked together and killed him. Well the killing blow was actually him blundering but that's besides the point. Thus far, the melee characters have held their own, and if anything the casters have been the ones that are a little dragging.

I'm not a particularly caster-heavy character so I'm not too sure how powerful the archivist/binder/anima mage combo actually is. Could you please elaborate? Because the player playing him is actually the one with the most experience out of the players.

It's really interesting that you mention letting the Knight take levels in Crusader, because the Knight's deity - as well as the cleric's deity - is called The Cross, and is basically a token Crusader. The "DEUS VULT, INFIDELS" kind.

I didn't force the alignment for the Assassin upon that player, no. He's...neutral, I think? Chaotic Neutral, maybe? I forget. I'll check with him later.

I get what you're saying with Planar Ally and Planar Binding, though. I'll keep that in mind and try and guide them towards something. Can you think of anything else as far as, things to look out for from the Anima Mage, or magical ideas?

And actually, yes, sleazy necromancy vampire dragon god Schrador is responsible for the curse!


Personally, I'd base the level of "Coincident" on how you want to portray the BBEG when everything is revealed.

IF you want it to feel like these are strangers tossed together trying to save the world, having each interrupt the main story arc for side quests works well and allows them to "Do what they want when its convenient".

IF you want it to feel like one of the BBEGs (or an equally powerful enemy) is pulling the strings, lots of hints can be dropped before the big "You were the chose ones" scene is revealed before the big boss fight.

I tend to avoid the "You were the chosen ones" thing because, the characters can very much die, and it's not like every character can be the chosen one.

Currently, it's seeming like the "true" big bad is going to be Schrador. He has a hand in much more than the devils do. Hell (lol), he's the one that Geas'd the Force Dragon to keep the hell portal closed in the first place.

There's also an glamered Prismatic Dragon that is the barkeep of the town that the PCs started in, the PCs have no idea and I've been kinda wanting to do something with him but for now he's just glamered as a human, cleaning mugs and stuff, biding his time for something I haven't determined yet.

[Thaneus]

SRD
Assassin
Hit Die
d6.

Requirements
To qualify to become an assassin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Alignment
Any evil.

Skills
Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.

Special
The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins.

When he is level 9 and just hit Assassin on level 6 he had 3 level to become more neutral, yeah sure, but that needed to be some mayor deeds. Or you ruled he could take it as "None Good", because neutral can kill in cold blood for money to (i have the feelings also for some Paladins sometimes too, though... but that's a different story :P ) it is your choice as the DM, wanted to point out my bewilderment here.

I did not mean to offend the character choice your players take or not, i also enjoy playing "low tier" stuff like Barbarian, Rogue and Monk. But don't be tied to the character = class stuff. When i want to play a really powerful Paladin of righteousness in a high tier campaign I'd go with Cleric+Crusader+re-fluffed Rubyknight Vendicator of Heironeous to be of actual use as frontliner to the gateing Cleric, the summoning/shifting Druid or nigh infinite spell Sorcerer. My character play can still be the same as that of an pure Paladin, I am just missing my summon-able horse :P.

The problem i see, still, is the potential of the casting guys is extreme, the other guys (Barb and Knight) can have nearly no progress and have nigh 0 potential to improve in power past level 10. Sure their BAB increase and they get more class-stuff but spells outshine them more and more.

Archivist has the unique ability to learn all, ALL divine spells at the lowest levels available when they take the scrolls for this and write them down, when he attains the spell "Anyspell, Greater" he can learn also arcane spells up to level 5 -> read Trapsmith PrC what that would mean. You could rule that he can not write it down in his book because its not an divine spell, but as i read it it should be possible.
He still has full legal access to all Domain Spells, Druid Spells, Paladin Spells, Cleric Spells and many more. Sure you need to give him access to those scrolls, but it would be mean to prevent complete access to any scrolls all the time.
One simple trick he can pull as Animamage also is nearly ignore all attribute damage caused by some very strong spells because of binding Naberius. There are still some more Binds which are exceptional powerful combined with the arsenal of spells known the Archivist can have.

When this guy is a more experienced player I hope he will play fair. Talk to him as already said, what are the development goals.

Why Runescarred Berserker:
Large Enemy mocking the Gnome: "You small mug wont never hope to reach me before my hammer flattens you!"
Gnome:"... Polymorph...Divine Might..."
Throws the enemy out of the wood miles away while raging as Huge Wartroll! Hilarious (when my math is right would be Str 39+ his gear) who would not want that? :D
Not doable alone before level 16 though.

[prufock]

And now, for my dilemma: How in the hell do I manage all this? I want to do all of this but I'm not sure where to begin. I don't want to split the party, but man, it's going to be difficult getting all of their personal quests completed while also somewhat keeping on track with the main quest, when they realise what it is.

The first thing I would do is immediately combine some of these goals. Obvious examples stick out:
- The Living Skeleton's curse can be solved by Schrador. He's an undead deity, skeleton curses are his purview. This might give them extra incentive to side with him.
- The King of Hell's true name can be discovered in the Dead Letter Office, an undead demi-plane where forgotten knowledge goes to die. Whether they side with Shrador or not, they can end up here.

Secondly, I would reserve a couple of things for the epilogue:
- The rogue leading a rebellion sounds more like a bridge between this campaign and a future one, perhaps with the other players building new characters to be part of the rebellion. There may be ways to plant these seeds, but I would recommend not making this a campaign goal for the present.
- Similarly, the gnome can receive some information over the course of the game as to his parents' whereabouts, but don't worry about resolving it until the epilogue.

As for "what to do with the King of Hell," I would say "nothing." The demons and devils who have come through the portal can be acting independently, and while their god knows of their actions, he isn't really interested in them or Earth right now. Why? Well, he's a deity, he doesn't need a reason, but they need not be envoys of the King. This will remove a concern from your game.

[Xaroth]

When he is level 9 and just hit Assassin on level 6 he had 3 level to become more neutral, yeah sure, but that needed to be some mayor deeds. Or you ruled he could take it as "None Good", because neutral can kill in cold blood for money to (i have the feelings also for some Paladins sometimes too, though... but that's a different story :P ) it is your choice as the DM, wanted to point out my bewilderment here.

I did not mean to offend the character choice your players take or not, i also enjoy playing "low tier" stuff like Barbarian, Rogue and Monk. But don't be tied to the character = class stuff. When i want to play a really powerful Paladin of righteousness in a high tier campaign I'd go with Cleric+Crusader+re-fluffed Rubyknight Vendicator of Heironeous to be of actual use as frontliner to the gateing Cleric, the summoning/shifting Druid or nigh infinite spell Sorcerer. My character play can still be the same as that of an pure Paladin, I am just missing my summon-able horse :P.

The problem i see, still, is the potential of the casting guys is extreme, the other guys (Barb and Knight) can have nearly no progress and have nigh 0 potential to improve in power past level 10. Sure their BAB increase and they get more class-stuff but spells outshine them more and more.

Archivist has the unique ability to learn all, ALL divine spells at the lowest levels available when they take the scrolls for this and write them down, when he attains the spell "Anyspell, Greater" he can learn also arcane spells up to level 5 -> read Trapsmith PrC what that would mean. You could rule that he can not write it down in his book because its not an divine spell, but as i read it it should be possible.
He still has full legal access to all Domain Spells, Druid Spells, Paladin Spells, Cleric Spells and many more. Sure you need to give him access to those scrolls, but it would be mean to prevent complete access to any scrolls all the time.
One simple trick he can pull as Animamage also is nearly ignore all attribute damage caused by some very strong spells because of binding Naberius. There are still some more Binds which are exceptional powerful combined with the arsenal of spells known the Archivist can have.

When this guy is a more experienced player I hope he will play fair. Talk to him as already said, what are the development goals.

Why Runescarred Berserker:
Large Enemy mocking the Gnome: "You small mug wont never hope to reach me before my hammer flattens you!"
Gnome:"... Polymorph...Divine Might..."
Throws the enemy out of the wood miles away while raging as Huge Wartroll! Hilarious (when my math is right would be Str 39+ his gear) who would not want that? :D
Not doable alone before level 16 though.

Oh, wow. I didn't even realise that Archivist had access to all divine spells, that's ridiculous. I'll be sure to keep an eye out as far as that goes.

I see what you're saying though, about the character != class, bit. If I truly want to play the incredible tank, I'll probably take levels in a class like Bone Knight, for all the insane bonuses/immunities you can get through that. What really sold this guy on Knight though was the Loyal Beyond Death ability, which I don't think is replicated in any other class. I haven't seen it, if it was replicated elsewhere.

I'm not necessarily offended, as much as, I just felt like you were being overly critical of a group where most of the group's first experience with D&D is this campaign, heh. His back-up character is a Concordant Killer though, which I've turned into a monster class he can progress in.

I did change the requirement to non-Good rather than having it be always Evil, as I was worried how a new group would play Evil characters, and I seriously didn't want to start a conflict which ended up with the player characters fighting each other.

I'll keep an eye out for the Anima Mage trick, though. Thanks!

[Xaroth]

The first thing I would do is immediately combine some of these goals. Obvious examples stick out:
- The Living Skeleton's curse can be solved by Schrador. He's an undead deity, skeleton curses are his purview. This might give them extra incentive to side with him.
- The King of Hell's true name can be discovered in the Dead Letter Office, an undead demi-plane where forgotten knowledge goes to die. Whether they side with Shrador or not, they can end up here.

Secondly, I would reserve a couple of things for the epilogue:
- The rogue leading a rebellion sounds more like a bridge between this campaign and a future one, perhaps with the other players building new characters to be part of the rebellion. There may be ways to plant these seeds, but I would recommend not making this a campaign goal for the present.
- Similarly, the gnome can receive some information over the course of the game as to his parents' whereabouts, but don't worry about resolving it until the epilogue.

As for "what to do with the King of Hell," I would say "nothing." The demons and devils who have come through the portal can be acting independently, and while their god knows of their actions, he isn't really interested in them or Earth right now. Why? Well, he's a deity, he doesn't need a reason, but they need not be envoys of the King. This will remove a concern from your game.

Schrador is the one that was responsible for giving him the curse, so I suppose it would make sense that he could remove it.

I wasn't aware that the Dead Letter Office even existed, do you have a reference to where I can find things out about it? I'd love to introduce something about it.

The idea for keeping the rebellion for another campaign is actually really awesome to me, I don't know why I didn't think of that. Thank you! For the Gnome's parents thing though, I might be able to resolve that somewhere along the way, but I'll think on what you said about leaving that for the epilogue too.

As for the King of Hell...yeah, actually, that pretty much lines up with what I wanted to do. I just felt like I couldn't find a reason to justify why the King would just sit back and watch his guys get slaughtered, but...I suppose I don't have to think of him as a literal King. After all, he's more of a tyrant, and to say that about somebody ruling over Demons and Devils is no easy thing. I'm glad that I managed to remove that concern from the game, though, as Death and the King of Hell are two being I don't particularly intend for the players to meet, seeing as they're the two most powerful deities in my universe.

[prufock]

I wasn't aware that the Dead Letter Office even existed, do you have a reference to where I can find things out about it? I'd love to introduce something about it.
The DLO is an idea I pulled out of thin air, so it may not fit your setting, but think of it like an undead version of the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook). I'm picturing a seemingly-endless, dark library with musty, rotten tomes and scrolls, filled with the forgotten knowledge of the ages. It would rest within an undead demi-plane, or an undead plane if your cosmology has one (such as the plane of negative energy).

[Xaroth]

The DLO is an idea I pulled out of thin air, so it may not fit your setting, but think of it like an undead version of the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook). I'm picturing a seemingly-endless, dark library with musty, rotten tomes and scrolls, filled with the forgotten knowledge of the ages. It would rest within an undead demi-plane, or an undead plane if your cosmology has one (such as the plane of negative energy).

That'd be goddamn awesome, I think I'll use that idea, if you don't mind.

[prufock]

That'd be goddamn awesome, I think I'll use that idea, if you don't mind.

Be my guest! I wouldn't mention it if I didn't want you to use it. :smallsmile: