Blade Pact Warlock

[Dr. Cliché]

Could someone explain the appeal of the Warlock Blade Pact to me?

(Assuming that you're not going to multiclass into a fighter of some sort.)

It just doesn't seem very useful for a primarily ranged attacker (especially when it takes an Action just to get the weapon).

[jaappleton]

The appeal is in the fluff. Full spellcasting, and (seemingly) frontline fighting. What's not to love about that?

Mechanically, it's a mess. It almost requires multiclassing to function well. Which simply sucks, since then it proves the build doesn't work as well as it should.

The Warlock 100% functions better as its intended do; Knocking people around with Eldritch Blast.

[Biggstick]

A magical weapon that you're guaranteed to be proficient with at Warlock level 3 is pretty sweet. It also allows for you to take the weapon anywhere, as you can shunt it into the pocket dimension to hide it and bring it back whenever you want. You can also use it to "steal" a weapon if you're allowed an hour to "bond" with said weapon.

If you're going straight Warlock without a martial class dip, it's appeal drops pretty severely. I wouldn't recommend Blade Pact without a martial dip first.

[Willie the Duck]

First of all, as an aside, you can carry the weapon around, in most cases it does not take an Action to get it.

jaappleton has the most of it. The Glaivelock is a well-loved late 3.5-era character concept/build that the designers appear to be trying to emulate. Mechanically, it isn't that different from the valor bard, bladesinger, or favored soul, but it is the small differences that matter (not that people tend to think of those as being "better" classes either).

The real problem is that martial weapon proficiency (and given that people rarely need to be proficient in two martial melee weapons at the same time, this is close enough), extra attack (equivalent), and light armor do not a melee combatant make, nor are the warlock's spells and invocations enough to take it over the edge. Light armor works for rangers and rogues, but those classes are in a much better position to get their Dex to 20 early (and con higher) if they choose to be melee skirmishers.

It shouldn't be surprising that these full-caster types with the martial archetypes don't do great at frontlining. If they did, why would you ever bother with 1/2- or non-casting classes. The valor bard does okay, but that might be based on expectations (being middling at both combat and spellcasting is kinda how we think of bards, coming from earlier editions).

That said, a bladelock is perfectly viable, so long as your DM allows multiclassing. It's just kinda crummy that one has to do so.

[jaappleton]

First of all, as an aside, you can carry the weapon around, in most cases it does not take an Action to get it.

jaappleton has the most of it. The Glaivelock is a well-loved late 3.5-era character concept/build that the designers appear to be trying to emulate. Mechanically, it isn't that different from the valor bard, bladesinger, or favored soul, but it is the small differences that matter (not that people tend to think of those as being "better" classes either).

The real problem is that martial weapon proficiency (and given that people rarely need to be proficient in two martial melee weapons at the same time, this is close enough), extra attack (equivalent), and light armor do not a melee combatant make, nor are the warlock's spells and invocations enough to take it over the edge. Light armor works for rangers and rogues, but those classes are in a much better position to get their Dex to 20 early (and con higher) if they choose to be melee skirmishers.

It shouldn't be surprising that these full-caster types with the martial archetypes don't do great at frontlining. If they did, why would you ever bother with 1/2- or non-casting classes. The valor bard does okay, but that might be based on expectations (being middling at both combat and spellcasting is kinda how we think of bards, coming from earlier editions).

That said, a bladelock is perfectly viable, so long as your DM allows multiclassing. It's just kinda crummy that one has to do so.

Well the Valor Bard is a better gish class than the Bladelock is.

Valor gets two attacks naturally without spending an Invocation to do so. They get Medium Armor. Whether you prefer short rest casting is up to you, I honestly prefer the standard casting of most spellcasters. Especially for buff spells.

Bards don't naturally get the best damaging cantrip in the game with EB like Warlocks. Each is an individual ray, as opposed to say Firebolt, where it's one shot and hit or miss. I'll ALWAYS take the multiple swings over all or nothing. And to get Agonizing Blast or Repelling Blast with it? It all points to building around a ranged build. And Warlocks, with how their spellcasting is structured, doesn't do a very good job of making itself a gish.

If Bladelocks naturally got Medium Armor, or got "AC equals Dex + Cha" naturally instead of having to spend an Invocation, they'd be much better because they wouldn't be so damn MAD to begin with.

[Sir cryosin]

Any kind of warlock is a particular build. A straight bladelock is pretty good if you have everything set up. You spells are hex, armor of Agatha. You get 2 attacks with your Dex and cha mods. Armor is lacking but that's the point you want people to hit so you get armor of Agatha to damage.

[jaappleton]

Any kind of warlock is a particular build. A straight bladelock is pretty good if you have everything set up. You spells are hex, armor of Agatha. You get 2 attacks with your Dex and cha mods. Armor is lacking but that's the point you want people to hit so you get armor of Agatha to damage.

Hex on a melee class without Constitution save proficiency when you need Charisma for spells, Dex for AC, Con for obvious reasons... At lv4, you're at maybe 14 Con? And it's unlikely to be raised because you need to max your Charisma for spells or Dexterity for AC and attack rolls and good freakin' luck if you went for a Strength build!

[Tanarii]

It gives you an effective melee attack. One that can be used in conjunction with magical weapons, gives you proficiency in it, and that you can summon to you at-will. In other words, it's like an EK's Weapon Bond, except it also lets you use something you couldn't use before proficiently, which opens up more options.

Of course, if you want it to be even more than that you can select other options to build around it.

[jaappleton]

It gives you an effective melee attack. One that can be used in conjunction with magical weapons, gives you proficiency in it, and that you can summon to you at-will. In other words, it's like an EK's Weapon Bond, except it also lets you use something you couldn't use before proficiently, which opens up more options.

Of course, if you want it to be even more than that you can select other options to build around it.

But Fighters get Con save proficiency, along with Heavy and Medium armor.

[Tanarii]

But Fighters get Con save proficiency, along with Heavy and Medium armor.What's that got to do with the price of milk?

[jaappleton]

What's that got to do with the price of milk?

Honestly I read your post too fast and thought you were comparing the abilities of the Bladelock VS EK, not just the 'It's like that one EK ability'

[Tanarii]

Honestly I read your post too fast and thought you were comparing the abilities of the Bladelock VS EK, not just the 'It's like that one EK ability'
Gotcha. Yeah Fighters who go EK and Warlocks who select Pact of the Blade a boon are two different things.

For starters, one is selecting a subclass, and the other is picking a single class Feature.

[Lombra]

I like bladelocks because eldritch knights can choose only crap spells for themselves, paladins are mainstream and bladesingers are wrong.

[gfishfunk]

Bladelock versus Blastlock is not a great comparison because (generally speaking) Blastlock beats everything in at-will damage.

Bladelock is FUN, though, in a way that I do not (personally) find Blastlock. At about level 4 and on, the Bladelock functions very well. At levels 1 and 2, the pre-bladelock is awkward, then at level 3 it suddenly switches rolls, but the spell support is not quite there yet.

Why is it fun? Its nice having several options, I suppose. It builds well on Temp HP (fiend / AoA), Hex (notably when you have two attacks at level 5, or three with PAM), and especially Mirror Image. Fiend pact Fire Shield also provides a lot of benefit....but then spells really drop off for bladelock specific builds. Eldritch Blast has always been a secondary feature for me - I know it gets crazy good, but ranged at-will damage is boring. It usually involves shooting, running, hiding, and then popping around the corner and shooting again.

Pure bladelock is good, but it is (imo) inferior and less fun than dipped fighter/barbarian/rogue/paladin (choose 1). I dipped Barbarian and I have zero regrets about it. I don't tend to get features that stack, but features that add variety so I do not get bored with the mechanics. In my opinion, Eldritch Blast (even with knock back) is boring even as it is superior.

[CaptainSarathai]

So, I have been mucking with Warlocks for quite a while. They're a hot mess, they disappoint, they bite, they are deeply imperfect, but I still love them.
Without fixes, and without multiclassing, there's really a whole different mindset you go into for a BladeLock.

1) Stats
Dex is king
Con in next
Charisma can be dumped
--But, Charisma is my spell casting modifier!

2) Uh.. about that: Spells
Hex is king
Armor of Agathys is next
Darkness is also great
--Neither of these use your Charisma. They are not "save or suck" or anything like that - they just work. This is why you can dump Charisma. Note that you are not using Eldritch Blast, so...

3) Invocations
Armor of Shadow first
Thirsting Blade (without SCAG)
Devil's Sight (with Darkness)
Fiendish Vigor

4) Patrons
Undying Light (with SCAG)
Fiend
Fey

5) Feats
Warcaster (with SCAG)
Resilient Con (if it puts your Con to an even, or if Proficiency>5)
Warcaster
Elemental Adept (with SCAG)
PAM (with Str build)
Dex/Str and Con to 20
Mobile
Dual Wielder (dependent on DM interpretation of Pact Weapon)
Magic Initiate: Warlock
Cha to 20
Martial Adept: Riposte (or Shoving with SCAG)
--Okay, so Warcaster is Advantage or roughly +5 to your rolls. It also lets you use BB like "Sentinel-lite" if you have it.
Elemental Adept overcomes resistance and is also basically your "great weapon style" for SCAG cantrips.
PAM is amazing if you can get armor without relying on Dex. Basically, if you're a Dwarf.
MI Warlock seems really odd, I know. The idea is that you choose Hex here, freeing you up a spell known but also netting you the ability to throw Hex as a slotless spell once per Long Rest. You can still throw it using Warlock levelled slots as normal, as per the FAQ, since it came from your own list. It's not much, but when you only have 2 slots available for most of your career, every bit helps.
Martial Adept: Riposte is also odd. Basically, Armor of Agathys punishes enemies for hitting you. Riposte punishes them (once per short rest) for missing as well.
Dual Wielder - depends on how your DM rules the proficiency for the Pact Weapon. If you summon a Rapier, are you proficient with all rapiers, or only that specific rapier? If you are proficient by type, then carry a boring, mundane copy around at all times and enjoy the extra +1 average damage over a D6.

How to Play:
BladeLocks aren't going to be OP unless you Multiclass them. They are not bad though, by any means. For a character with a (kinda?) full caster progression, they are pretty close to the Rogue for round-to-round damage, and considering their weapons limitations, aren't all that far behind a similarly armed EK. Remember that the difference here is that you are a full caster with a Short Rest dependency, rather than a 3rd caster Martial.

Unless you have BB/GFB from SCAG, you're going to dual-wield and use Hex. Even if it's just a dagger in your offhand, you're doing it.

At the start of the day, you cast Armor of Shadows for Mage Armor 8hrs. That's better than any Light Armor you can wear. Then summon your blade so you don't waste time in the fight. I also usually try to keep False Life up any time I'm not actively using AoA.

In combat, Hex is likely the priority. +D6 per hit is great.
Compare a Blaster getting d10+Cha+D6 = 9+Stat per attack, and at 5th they get it twice.
You get d8+Dex+d6 = 8+Stat twice at 5th, and always have 2d6=7 in your offhand.
Dual Wielding with Hex can keep you ahead of a Blaster, all career long. Remember, when they get their 3rd beam (9+Stat) you get 8+Dex+Cha on your main attacks.

I usually throw False Life at the end of every fight to replenish my TempHP. I save AoA for the big stuff, but then I keep in mind that I'm adding that to my damage output.

That's something that people don't seem to quite grasp about the Bladelock: they want to be getting hit a little more, and they can almost take it if that's what you've built for. You're not going to stand there and tank like an EK, but unless he went GWM+/PAM, you're probably doing a little more damage than the EK.

In a really tight spot, where the BBEG can probably just demolish and stomach my AoA thp/dam, I'll pop Darkness instead. Getting Insta-advantage pumps your DPR, and putting everyone else on a level playing field (no adv/disadv) is sometimes helpful. I've actually seen Rogues thrive inside my Darkness cloud, and remember that because you can still see the BABE plain as day, he can't Hide.

Generally speaking, dual-wielding has a better DPR (with Hex up) than the SCAG cantrips. The exception might be the (broken AF) UL+GFB getting +Cha to Fire at L1. Really though, BB/GFB are just there if you have some other use for your Bonus Action, don't have Hex up, and/or if you've got Warcaster to use them as your OA.

The only reason to go StrLock is for PAM. PAM has the advantage of being Dual Wielding with a Dagger and the Dual Wielder Fighting Style (+Stat to damage), and when you get LifeDrinker it applies to both ends. D8->D10 and D6->D4 offset for rolled damage, except that you're always more likely to roll with the primary weapon, so advancing that die matters a bit more. The only way I would even consider this (barring MCing) is on a Dwarf or a VHuman using their racials to get better armor proficiency (or multiclassing)

[Willie the Duck]

I'll also point out that MCing to Life cleric (yes, another attribute to deal with, so this usually only comes out with rolled stats) is an interesting way of getting extra attack, healing spells on short rests, ranged and melee all in one character). It's so fiddly and has so many things to compete for your (2 for most of your career) spell slots per rest that only the most insanely detail oriented player will see them thrive, but it is a cool concept.

That's kind of the bladelock in a nutshell though -- it is the dream of having it all. Full casting, good melee, good ranged, temp hp as a way of being able to tank. Works in the front line or the back line. Likely good cha and dex mean there's routes for you as a skill character. It's trying to be everything. And just like builds for that in other editions, it only sometimes ever pans out. :biggrin:

[JellyPooga]

The appeal of Bladelock?

It looks cool.

That's it, really. It's all about being able to summon a great, honking demon-axe, fairy-sword or...uh, tentacle-maul(?) or...bone-spear (I guess) from nowhere and saying "Bring it, suckaz!"...and then blasting them in the face with Eldritch Blast anyway, because it's better than wasting your time actually using your party accessory.

[Millstone85]

I see pact boons as following a classic fighter-mage-thief design.

Since the warlock is a spellcaster to begin with, it is no surprise that the mage option, Tome, is the soundest choice.

Chain's take on the concept of a thief is very interesting. You do not yourself become a better scout, spy or messenger but you get a drone that is exceptionally good at such tasks.

The appeal of Blade is that we all want to see it complete the equation. But I don't think it is successful.


Bladelock versus Blastlock is not a great comparisonIt is a comparison that we shouldn't even have to make. A warlock doesn't sacrifice anything by going Tome or Chain, except for the road not taken. So why would Blade make the warlock any less of a blaster?

Because of MADness, yes, but there should have been something to mitigate that. Maybe one of Blade's invocations should have been replaced with something similar to the War Magic feature of the eldritch knight.

[RumoCrytuf]

Could someone explain the appeal of the Warlock Blade Pact to me?

(Assuming that you're not going to multiclass into a fighter of some sort.)

It just doesn't seem very useful for a primarily ranged attacker (especially when it takes an Action just to get the weapon).

Well, let me tell you! There was this one time, a bladelock and a few of his non bladelock friends got captured by the city guard and arrested for crimes they didn't commit. Bladelock is the only person okay with this, because he's still got his weapon. Epic breakout ensues, Bladelock fights off guards with help of friends, and they escape and unravel the conspiracy. The end.

In all honesty though, bladelocks are fluff kind of fun. Because nothing feels more badass than conjuring a scythe and making the leader of an orc war party piss his boots. Also, it's badass. Did I mention that? If all else fails, Blast away my friend.

[Saggo]

Some of the appeal mechanically is a method of getting Fighter/Barbarian-magnitude melee DPR (capable of exceeding Eldritch Blast if done right) with up to full 9th level spellcasting at the same time. Taking an actual level in Fighter is usually for the defense, the offense is still almost entirely from the Warlock framework.

[Inox]

I feel like Bladelock could be hugely viable if they just allowed you to use Cha as your Pact Weapon attack stat, just like Tomelocks get to use Shillelagh. And give them their second attack at 5th or 6th for free--no Invocation spend.

It's downright lame that *one* of the three slots Tomelocks get to spend on cantrips makes them better at earlier levels than any Bladelock.

Oh, and Lifedrinker--maybe give more than one type of damage as an option, key it to patron, make it ignore resistance..something. Undying Light Bladelocks seem like they should swing radiant, and Fiend possibly fire.

[Tanarii]

I feel like Bladelock could be hugely viable if they just allowed you to use Cha as your Pact Weapon attack stat, just like Tomelocks get to use Shillelagh. And give them their second attack at 5th or 6th for free--no Invocation spend.

It's downright lame that *one* of the three slots Tomelocks get to spend on cantrips makes them better at earlier levels than any Bladelock.Shillelagh doesn't even come close to approaching the damage of a Str blade-lock. Or a dual-wielding Dex blade-lock.

[Inox]

Shillelagh doesn't even come close to approaching the damage of a Str blade-lock. Or a dual-wielding Dex blade-lock.

Note that I said: better at earlier levels.

When you add in Extra Attack and Lifedrinker, then yeah, you pull away on damage. But the first boost doesn't even come until 5th.

In the meanwhile, you'll be rolling on Str or Dex with what's almost certainly a lower TH and damage bonus. And 1d8--plus being magical just like a Pact Weapon--isn't bad.

Bladelocks--right when they get their Pact Boon--should immediately be markedly better in melee than Warlocks who select a different Boon.

I also feel they shouldn't be MAD for what should be their primary damage-dealing modality. Otherwise, Agonizing Blast often makes more sense day-to-day--just take Crossbow Expert and use it nonstop, even close up. Being MAD automatically makes Bladelocks a less desirable option, imo.

[JellyPooga]

When you add in Extra Attack and Lifedrinker, then yeah, you pull away on damage. But the first boost doesn't even come until 5th.

I always thought Lifedrinker should have been the 5th level Invocation and Thirsting Blade the 11th level one...if only to differentiate them from Fighters and other martials that get Extra Attack somewhat.

I also figured they should get access to some kind of rider effect for their Pact Weapon, perhaps even instead of an additional attack; something similar to Elemental Weapon...scratch that; just make Thirsting Blade an Invocation that allows you to cast Elemental Weapon 1/short rest, scaling appropriately (i.e. cast as 3rd level spell at 5th, 5th level spell at 9th and 7th level spell at 13th). Then introduce a new Invocation, available at 7th level (and only to Blade Pact), called Eldritch Flurry (or something), that allows them to cast Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade as a Bonus Action. Done.

That way, Bladelock gets a bump at 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th, assuming they take all three Invocations that are exclusive to them. They get really good weapon damage that isn't reliant on finding a magic weapon (their Pact Weapon is supposed to be good, right?) and they're different from other martials in as much as they get delayed "Extra Attack" and are much more reliant on spellcasting (they're nigh useless in an AMF) to enhance their attacks.

I'd play that Bladelock.

[Dr. Cliché]

I always thought Lifedrinker should have been the 5th level Invocation and Thirsting Blade the 11th level one...if only to differentiate them from Fighters and other martials that get Extra Attack somewhat.

Given the name, I'm more disappointed that Lifedrinker does not actually include any vampiric effect.

Do you think it would be overpowered if you also healed equal to the Necrotic damage dealt?

[JellyPooga]

Given the name, I'm more disappointed that Lifedrinker does not actually include any vampiric effect.

Do you think it would be overpowered if you also healed equal to the Necrotic damage dealt?

I'm inclined to agree and no, I don't think that would be an OP modification to Lifedrinker. You have to wait until 11th level to get it and a Necromancer Wizard is getting heals from dealing damage at 2nd level.

[MrStabby]

Blade pact is fine as long as you don't forget you are primarily a caster. At the end of the day you are a great caster who happens to be only OK in melee. If you wan't to be great in melee play a martial class not a caster.

That said, there are a few things you can do.

1) Pick your patron well.
On paper Fiend looks best for a bladelock. In reality I find fey so much better. You want a high attack stat so your charisma ain't going to be great. What Fey pact does is give you a load of great spell options for 'locks with low charisma. Faerie fire, sleep, blink, plant growth (seriously - 100ft radius opens up a lot of tactical options), greater invisibility. Add this to the solid 'lock spells that don't need Cha either and you can be a decent melee fighter.

2) Pick your feats well.
Ok this requires feats to be allowed. Pole arm mastery +sentinel is great. Less need for high AC from a martial dip if you can keep that bit further from the frontlines behind teammates and when you can stop enemies from being in close combat. If you go for a low Cha you can spare the ASIs as well.

3) Pick your race well. Once you decide you want to primarily be a melee fighter not a caster you get a lot of new race options opening up to you. Dwarfs are solid for Str based Bladelocks but there are a lot you can play.




You can do a lot without a dip. Dips are cool and they are not bad - but you can get away without them a lot of the time. Personally my favourite is cleric - but that is probably just me.

[Rhedyn]

Could someone explain the appeal of the Warlock Blade Pact to me?

(Assuming that you're not going to multiclass into a fighter of some sort.)

It just doesn't seem very useful for a primarily ranged attacker (especially when it takes an Action just to get the weapon). Normally, it's an off-option for when you are forced into melee. Mileage may very by DM NPC tactics.

I love it. It's my favorite warlock, but I go V human with a 16 8 14 8 10 16 point spread. Grab medium armor prof at 1 and heavy armor prof at 2. Then boost cha, str, cha, con. You have 18 strength by level 4 and make for a decent frontline with fullplate and a greatsword.

[Millstone85]

At the end of the day you are a great caster who happens to be only OK in melee.
Normally, it's an off-option for when you are forced into melee.That was probably the intent, yeah, but still... If you are just preparing yourself against melee instead of actively seeking it, this is not a pact boon well spent. There are non-boon-specific invocations to buff your defenses and push enemies away. There are Tome cantrips to make you more dangerous in melee. It gets you more on top of the precaution.

[Clone]

I was wondering how the damage output would be for a melee Tomelock using Shillelagh and SCAG cantrips in comparison to other melee combatants? Can it compare, or does it just pull you just above being a meatshield?

[DMJ1]

It's basically not a viable option without one level of Fighter first. If this is not an option from the DM's perspective (or yours), go with something else, it would just be too frustrating.

If fighter would be an option, here is an excellent guide: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49851/optimal-dragonborn-warlock-for-dpr-ac-with-blade-pact-and-fiend-patron

It would also work with a slightly different setup (reach weapon and polearm master). The guide above has the advantage, that you are still something worth at range with your Eldritch Blast.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Could someone explain the appeal of the Warlock Blade Pact to me?

(Assuming that you're not going to multiclass into a fighter of some sort.)

It just doesn't seem very useful for a primarily ranged attacker (especially when it takes an Action just to get the weapon).
Because you want to be a primary melee attacker instead. Unfortunately, as you've noticed, you've got to work for it a bit-- you need a third attack to keep up with Eldrich Blast damage, you need some sort of extra defense, you need to accept that you'll have a lower Cha...

[Tanarii]

Because you want to be a primary melee attacker instead.
If that's what you're going for, you're either going to need to make a hardcore build around it or choose a different class.

Pact of the Blade boon adds melee options, including access to far more magical weapons, especially for a Str blade lock. Not changing into a primary melee attacker.

Edit: not everything has to be about optimizing/maximizing a strength. Some choices are there to add new/backup options.

[Xetheral]

not everything has to be about optimizing/maximizing a strength. Some choices are there to add new/backup options.

While I'm a big fan of making versatile characters, it would be nice if bladelock was a more mechanically-appealing option for providing said backup option.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If that's what you're going for, you're either going to need to make a hardcore build around it or choose a different class.
Well, yes, but the ideal is what appears. People generally don't look at a major choice like that and say "I want a mediocre secondary option," they say "I want to be a sword-mage!"

[Millstone85]

While I'm a big fan of making versatile characters, it would be nice if bladelock was a more mechanically-appealing option for providing said backup option.Yeah, a tomelock with shillelagh should be compared to a bladelock whose pact weapon is indeed treated as a backup.


they say "I want to be a sword-mage!"Or rather, a hexblade.

[CaptainSarathai]

I was wondering how the damage output would be for a melee Tomelock using Shillelagh and SCAG cantrips in comparison to other melee combatants? Can it compare, or does it just pull you just above being a meatshield?
Not great, actually. First of all, remember that you still need to cast Shillelagh. That's a R1 Bonus Action right there. With Blade, you summon your sword and keep it until someone takes it.
A BladeLock can use SCAG just as much as a TomeLock, so the difference is:
D8 Rapier, +Dex
D8 Stick, +Cha

But let's just say you're choosing between SCAG and Dual-Wield, and not using UA or Multiclassing. We're maxing Dex here, instead of Cha, for the BladeLock, as per my earlier post. Hex is up, of course.
For giggles, I'll show Eldritch Blast as well.


Edited for inaccuracies shown later
L3:
d8+d4+ 2d6+Dex3 = 17
d8+d6+Cha3, +Rider = 11/15.5
d10+d6+Cha3 = 12

L5:
2d8+d4+3d6+Dex4+Dex4 = 30
2d8+d6+Cha4, +Rider = 16.5/25.5
2d10+2d6+Cha4+Cha4 = 26

L11:
(L12) 2d8+d4+3d6+Dex5+Dex5+Cha3+Cha3 = 38
3d8+d6+Cha5, +Rider = 22/35.5
3d10+3d6+Cha5+Cha5+Cha5 = 41

L17
2d8+d4+3d6+Dex5+Dex5+Cha4+Cha4 = 40
4d8+d6+Cha5, +Rider = 26.5/44.5
4d10+4d6+Cha5+Cha5+Cha5+Cha5 = 56

So there's that, really. If you just want a backup option, Tome is really the best. It lets you turn your staff into a Shillelagh as needed.


Because you want to be a primary melee attacker instead. Unfortunately, as you've noticed, you've got to work for it a bit-- you need a third attack to keep up with Eldrich Blast damage, you need some sort of extra defense, you need to accept that you'll have a lower Cha...
Yeah. 3rd attack and defense are easy for a single class Lock:
Dex and Dual-Wield
OR
Dwarf and PAM


Yeah, a tomelock with shillelagh should be compared to a bladelock whose pact weapon is indeed treated as a backup.

Or rather, a hexblade.
If you're going Blade, you're not using your sword as a backup. You have 2 attacks, and add Charisma and Stat to those attacks. Tome wins out as a backup option, but not overall damage. Indeed, for the first half of your career, Blade wins out for damage even over BlastLock. At 11 the difference is minimal. At 17+ you notice a difference, but even then it's not horrible.

I think that if Blade Pact were simply another class (like HexBlade) doing the same stuff, nobody would complain.
The problem really is that people build a regular, Cha-primary Warlock and go Blade, and cry that they aren't doing as much damage as they could with a Blast. Blade really is like playing a different class.
The rest of the problem lies in Multiclassing. Go Sorc and suddenly a BlastLock is doing 106 damage per turn, and the BladeLock is just left floundering at maybe 81 with PAM+GWM damage.

[Xetheral]

Yeah, a tomelock with shillelagh should be compared to a bladelock whose pact weapon is indeed treated as a backup.

I wasn't satisfied with previous analyses that assumed a static AC, so I decided to do one of my own treating AC as a distribution.

Remember I'm *strictly* comparing melee-as-a-backup-option. I decided to define that as investing a single ASI/feat into melee capability, and assuming that charisma was still primary for all builds (meaning the opportunity cost of increasing charisma is assumed to be zero). No melee-focused magic items were assumed. I used the standard array, with any charisma-boosting race (or human). Charisma starts at 16 for all builds, and the melee attack stat starts at 14. AC was assumed to be normally-distributed, with an average of 12+PC Proficiency Modifier and a standard distribution of 2.5.

Here are the builds I analyzed:

Edit: These builds have been updated to reflect feedback from Zalabim, below.

GWM Bladelock
Fights in melee with two handaxes and a 14 strength until Bladepact becomes available at level three, whereupon this build switches to a Greatsword and uses Booming Blade for three levels. I assumed the extra Booming Blade damage would trigger on 15% of hits and is not doubled on a critical hit. At fifth level the build takes Thirsting Blade, and stops using Booming Blade in favor of making two attacks. At eighth level the build takes GWM. I assumed the bonus action attack from GWM would trigger 20% of the time on a hit and 80% of the time on a crit. GWM's -5/+10 is only used against ACs where it is advantageous to do so. At twelfth level the build takes Lifedrinker and bumps charisma to 20. Total opportunity cost: pact choice, 2 invocations, 1 cantrip slot, 8th level ASI

Shillelagh Tomelock
Fights in melee with two daggers and a 14 dex until Tomepact becomes available at level three, whereupon this build switches to using Shillelagh and Booming Blade with a 16 charisma. As above, I assumed the extra Booming Blade damage would trigger on 15% of hits and is not doubled on a critical hit. At level four charisma rises to 18. At level 8 the Warlock takes Mobile, increasing the rate at which the extra Booming Blade damage triggers to 65%. At twelfth level charisma rises to 20. Total opportunity cost: pact choice, 2 cantrip slots, 8th level ASI

TWF Bladelock
Fights in melee with two daggers and a 14 dex until Bladepact becomes available at level three, whereupon one of the daggers is exchanged for a pact shortsword. At fifth level the build takes thirsting blade, and at eighth level increases its dex to 16. At twelfth level the build takes Lifedrinker with an 18 charisma. At 12th level the build bumps Charisma to 20. Total opportunity cost: pact choice, two invocations, 8th level ASI

PAM Bladelock
Fights in melee with two handaxes and a 14 strength until Bladepact becomes available at level three, whereupon this build switches to a Greatsword and uses Booming Blade for three levels. I assumed the extra Booming Blade damage would trigger on 15% of hits and is not doubled on a critical hit. At fifth level the build takes Thirsting Blade, and stops using Booming Blade in favor of making two attacks. At eighth level the build takes PAM and switches to a Halberd. I assumed the opportunity attack from PAM would trigger 40% of the time. At twelfth level the build takes Lifedrinker and bumps charisma to 20. Total opportunity cost: pact choice, 2 invocations, 1 cantrip slot, 8th level ASI

CE (Any)lock
Fights in melee with two daggers and a 14 dex until taking Crossbow Expert at level eight, whereupon it switches to using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and an 18 charisma. Charisma is increased to 20 at twelfth level. Total opportunity cost: 8th level ASI

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii192/Xetheral/Bladelock%20Analysis%20v2.jpg
(New) Conclusions

The GWM and PAM Bladelock builds do somewhat better under the revised assumptions, but only rarely have more than about a 1 point lead in average damage over Shillelagh. (Although at level 1, the 1.19 damage lead represents almost a 30% increase.) Specifically, from levels 8-10, GWM Bladelock averages 1.6 damage (13%) more than Shillelagh, and from levels 12-16 PAM Bladelock averages 2.7 damage (14%) more than Shillelagh. Shillelagh passes both GWM and PAM builds at level 17, beating PAM by 2.7 damage (12%) and GWM by 6.2 damage (33%). Shillelagh achieves its near-parity using only 1/3 of the pact boon and two fewer invocations. (Shillelagh also has a large survivability advantage with Mobile, and doesn't rely on bonus actions to do damage.)

The efficiency winner, however, is the CE Anylock, who after suffering woefully through level 7, achieves near-parity from levels 8 through 10, and the takes the top score (although not always by much) for levels 11 through 20, and it does using two fewer invocations than the bladepact build and not even touching the pact boon or the cantrips.

In a featless game, Shillelagh will suffer the smallest decline other than the already-featless TWF Bladelock. I suspect they would become quite comparable at levels below 17, although Shillelagh might maintain a small edge.

Different assumptions regarding the AC distribution and the proc rate of Booming Blade and GWM will lead to marginally different results. Also, if one defines melee-as-a-backup-option as involving more or fewer resources, that will also change the results. But this is a good illustration of how Bladepact fails to achieve superior results to other lower-cost options in terms of adding backup-melee capability to a single-classed warlock.

Notably absent is Hex, because a backup melee option shouldn't assume you're using up a significant fraction of your daily spell slots to boost melee damage, and because these builds would also lose concentration quite quickly in melee. Warlock builds focusing on Eldritch Blast are likely to be using Hex anyway, but the opponents who force the warlock to use their backup melee capability aren't necessarily the ones you're trying to focus-fire on as a blaster. If you can manage to keep hex up and are lucky enough to keep it on the foes you face in melee, the all of the builds will benefit, but not evenly. Shillelagh gets the fewest attacks, but has the most available bonus actions (other than CE Anylock) for moving Hex around. Of the Bladelocks, TWF and PAM will benefit the most, at low level and mid-level respectively. At high level, CE Anylock will gain even more of a damage advantage over the alternatives. The percentage of time hex will be up and on one's melee target will vary wildly from table to table (and probably battle to battle).

End conclusion: Bladepact can maintain a slight damage advantage over Shillelagh-based backup-melee at most levels, but does so at considerably greater expenditure of both resources and actions. Bladepact is therefore less efficient. By contrast CE is the most efficient way to gain a secondary melee capability, but comes at the cost of being awful at melee until you spend the ASI to gain the feat.

Methodology note: When calculating average damage against the chosen AC distribution, I only calculated for ACs between 6+Prof and 18+Prof. This accounts for about 99.1% of all results, which means that the numbers on the chart above are all likely low by roughly 1%.

[ApplePen]

Blade locks actually work well with Sorcerer. You get quicken and Twin, then go warlock the rest of the way. Pick up greenfire blade and take magic initiate for shillelagh. go undying light, and suddenly you're a decent front line fighter who can spam 4 attacks by level 5, which each deal 2d8+3xCHA.
It'll drain your points in a hurry, but you can get around this by converting points prior to a short rest. You always can nova on the first round.

It gets better from there, but you are very MAD (CHA, Dex, Con)

[Steampunkette]

I feel like instead of getting a second attack invocation maybe it would be better to just give Warlocks "War Magic" as an invocation.

Cantrip plus 1 attack at level 5+. That right there would solve most bladelock issues thanks to Green Flame Blade (If you wanna avoid disadvantage without grabbing Crossbow Expert) or Eldritch Blasting some fools before you rush in to make a melee attack.

[Xetheral]

Blade locks actually work well with Sorcerer. You get quicken and Twin, then go warlock the rest of the way. Pick up greenfire blade and take magic initiate for shillelagh. go undying light, and suddenly you're a decent front line fighter who can spam 4 attacks by level 5, which each deal 2d8+3xCHA.
It'll drain your points in a hurry, but you can get around this by converting points prior to a short rest. You always can nova on the first round.

It gets better from there, but you are very MAD (CHA, Dex, Con)

Magic Initiate (Shillelagh) leaves Shillelagh based on Wisdom. Also, you can't Quicken and Twin a spell at the same time, so you're left with one Twinned Greenflame Blade and one Quickened Greenflame Blade. Yes, it's three attacks (at level 6, not level 5, because you need to be a Warlock 3/Sorcerer 3 to get both Bladepact and Metamagic), but each only deals 2d8+1xWIS. You need to be level 9 (Warlock 3/Sorcerer 6) before it becomes 1xWIS + 1xCHA, and level 17 (Warlock 11/Sorcerer 6) before it becomes 1xWIS + 2xCHA. (If you count the second-target damage of GFB, add an extra multiple of charisma to each.)

Also, until level 17 you're not gaining any benefit whatsoever from taking Bladepact. You're MUCH better off going Tomepact, because then you can get Shillelagh keyed off of Charisma....

You're right that Bladepact can work well with Sorcerer, but your reasoning has a lot of mistakes.

[Dr. Cliché]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

At the moment, I've gone with Pact of the Blade on one character (purely for fluff). He's a winged tiefling and is currently a Warlock 5, Rogue 2 and has 10 Str, 17 Dex and 16 Cha.

I don't particularly want to take a level in fighter (I'd rather focus on Warlock). Nor do I want to wear medium or heavy armour (he does have Armour of Shadows though, not least because of his wings). If it matters, one of his cantrips is Booming Blade.

Anyway, is there anything useful that can be done with Pact of the Blade with this character, or shall I invest my invocations elsewhere and just leave it as fluff?

[ApplePen]

Hmm. So Tomelock it is then. I wonder how a high WIS cleric/Blade lock would function. There's a cleric that gets WIS to fire cantrips, and you'd get better armor that route. Quarterstaff/Shield cleric to start into undying light blade pact warlock using initiate for shillelagh? If you get heavy armor you could even tank dex and leave STR low. Would take forever to get blade pact online but comes 2 levels lower than if you went sorc. Or you could make those 2 levels Paladin, and enjoy smiting with your weirdlock

[Xetheral]

Hmm. So Tomelock it is then. I wonder how a high WIS cleric/Blade lock would function. There's a cleric that gets WIS to fire cantrips, and you'd get better armor that route. Quarterstaff/Shield cleric to start into undying light blade pact warlock using initiate for shillelagh? If you get heavy armor you could even tank dex and leave STR low. Would take forever to get blade pact online but comes 2 levels lower than if you went sorc. Or you could make those 2 levels Paladin, and enjoy smiting with your weirdlock

The cleric that gets WIS to fire cantrips, Light Domain, only gets the bonus with Cleric cantrips, and there is no way to make Greenflame Blade a Cleric cantrip on a Light cleric. (Actually, Light cleric bonus works on all Cleric cantrips. Still doesn't help this build. If there is a Cleric domain that gets WIS to fire cantrips I don't know what it is.) Instead, take Arcana domain from SCAG. That both lets you get Greenflame Blade as a Cleric cantrip AND lets you add your Wisdom to damage with all Cleric cantrips starting at level 8.

That still leaves the question of why you'd want to take Bladepact with such a character. You get no useful pact bonuses at all until Warlock 11, at which point you're already 19th level (Arcana Cleric 8/Bladepact Warlock 11). Instead, go for Oathbreaker Paladin. You get the same +CHA to damage at Paladin level 7 (15 overall), and Paladin/Cleric is a much more synergistic multiclass than Warlock/Cleric. Alternatively, go with your original plan of Sorcerer to get +CHA to fire damage at level 6 (14 overall), and the ability to Quicken Greenflame blade.

(Also, extra note I forgot to mention in my last post: arguably Greenflame Blade is not eligible to be Twinned because it affects multiple targets.)

[Zalabim]

The main thing the blade pact allows is a warlock that's capable in combat without using Cha as its primary attribute. The boon itself is pretty lackluster though, and its associated invocations are fairly bland.


I wasn't satisfied with previous analyses that assumed a static AC, so I decided to do one of my own treating AC as a distribution.

Remember I'm *strictly* comparing melee-as-a-backup-option. I decided to define that as investing a single ASI/feat into melee capability, and assuming that charisma was still primary for all builds (meaning the opportunity cost of increasing charisma is assumed to be zero). No melee-focused magic items were assumed. I used the standard array. AC was assumed to be normally-distributed, with an average of 12+PC Proficiency Modifier and a standard distribution of 2.5.

Here are the builds I analyzed:

GWM Bladelock
Fights in melee with two daggers and a 14 strength until Bladepact becomes available at level three, whereupon this build switches to a Greatsword and uses Booming Blade for three levels. I assumed the extra Booming Blade damage would trigger on 40% of hits and is not doubled on a critical hit. At sixth level the build takes Thirsting Blade, and stops using Booming Blade in favor of making two attacks. At eighth level the build takes GWM. I assumed the bonus action attack from GWM would trigger 20% of the time on a hit and 40% of the time on a crit. GWM's -5/+10 is only used against ACs where it is advantageous to do so. At eleventh level the build takes Lifedrinker with an 18 charisma. At twelfth level the build bumps charisma to 20. Total opportunity cost: pact choice, 2 invocations, 1 cantrip slot, 8th level ASI

Shillelagh Tomelock
Fights in melee with two daggers and a 14 dex until Tomepact becomes available at level three, whereupon this build switches to using Shillelagh and Booming Blade with a 16 charisma. As above, I assumed the extra Booming Blade damage would trigger on 40% of hits and is not doubled on a critical hit. At level four charisma rises to 18. At eighth level charisma rises to 20. Total opportunity cost: pact choice, 2 cantrip slots

TWF Bladelock
Fights in melee with two daggers and a 14 dex until Bladepact becomes available at level three, whereupon one of the daggers is exchanged for a pact shortsword. At sixth level the build takes thirsting blade, and at eighth level increases its dex to 16. At eleventh level the build takes Lifedrinker with an 18 charisma. At 12th level the build bumps Charisma to 20. Total opportunity cost: pact choice, two invocations, 8th level ASI

CE (Any)lock
Fights in melee with two daggers and a 14 dex until taking Crossbow Expert at level eight, whereupon it switches to using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and an 18 charisma. Charisma is increased to 20 at twelfth level. Total opportunity cost: 8th level ASI

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii192/Xetheral/Bladelock%20Analysis.jpg
Conclusions
As you can see, Shillelagh Tomelock is either neck-and-neck with (or ahead of) GWM Bladelock at every level, and it uses only a small part of the Pact Boon, two fewer invocations, and no ASI to do it. And for any level 8 or above, CE Anylock matches or far-exceeds GWM Bladelock at far less opportunity cost.

In a featless game, comparing Shillelagh Tomelock to TWF Bladelock, Shillelagh again is either neck-and-neck or ahead at every level, and uses far fewer resources to do it.

Different assumptions regarding the AC distribution and the proc rate of Booming Blade and GWM will lead to marginally different results. Also, if one defines melee-as-a-backup-option as involving more or fewer resources, that will also change the results. But this is a good illustration of how Bladepact fails to achieve superior results to other lower-cost options in terms of adding backup-melee capability to a single-classed warlock.

Methodology note: When calculating average damage against the chosen AC distribution, I only calculated for ACs between 6+Prof and 18+Prof. This accounts for about 99.1% of all results, which means that the numbers on the chart above are all likely low by roughly 1%.
I have to disagree with a few of your assumptions and build choices. I'll try to keep it in order anyway. For the bladelock, if you have 14 strength you should be dual wielding Hand Axes at low levels, not Daggers. PAM is probably a better single feat investment than GWM, particularly if you're never going to consider a situation where you have advantage. I don't know why you wouldn't take Thirsting Blade at level 5 and you can't take Lifedrinker until level 12.

For all the Booming Blades, there's roughly a 0% chance that the enemy will trigger the extra damage unless you're spending extra resources to encourage them to do so. I say roughly because an enemy with multiple attacks may drop your warlock and then want to move to their next target, but then has the choice between killing you or taking extra damage to hurt someone else, and you probably don't want to be in that situation.

I don't see any comments on how you're handling bonus action use for the tomelock or the TWF and whether you're including Hex or have another reason the GWM couldn't use its bonus action so often after a critical hit. I also don't know what stats you're actually starting with. You say standard array but you're starting with 16 Cha and haven't listed what race.

For my own backup weapon comparison, the number to beat is the damage of EB with disadvantage. It takes 16 Str/Dex to do that with pact of the blade, but you have to take the invocations. Shillelagh can do that when you get the extra damage from the rider effect on the cantrip, and frequently even without the rider damage.

[Millstone85]

L1:
d8+3d6+Dex3 = 18It looks like I got lost on the first step. :smallconfused:

If I read this correctly... The warlock has called their pact weapon in the form of a rapier and, being 1st level and not having Thirsting Blade yet, can only attack once with it. That's [1d8+Dex]. Thanks to the Dual Wielder feat, they can make a second attack with another weapon, completely ignoring the light property but still not adding the modifier. That's apparently [1d6]. And with the hex spell playing on both hits, they get another [2d6].

But they would still want to be proficient with their second weapon and for it to have the finesse property. So I don't know what weapon they are using here.

[Willie the Duck]

you appear to be right. At first level, this character would be using paired daggers. This entire comparison should be separated into Level 1 and level 3.

[Lombra]

Blastlock > Bladelock makes no sense: it's like saying Wizard > Fighter, they cover two different roles: blastlocks keeps a distance from the enemies and focuses on buffs/ debuffs dumping AEB on them once they're done, bladelock tanks hits and helps directly dealing with the enemies in the frontlines. All around I find bladelock to be funnier to play than blastlock because you have broader options and a great variety of weapons to use.

[Dr. Cliché]

Blastlock > Bladelock makes no sense: it's like saying Wizard > Fighter, they cover two different roles

Surely a more apt comparison would be Archery Fighter vs GWF Fighter. These are subsets of the same class - not two entirely different classes.

[Lombra]

Surely a more apt comparison would be Archery Fighter vs GWF Fighter. These are subsets of the same class - not two entirely different classes.

Logically yes, but Unearthed Arcana is a mess so I tend to not mention it, I just wanted to emphatize on the difference which is pretty close to what I used as examples IMO

[MrStabby]

Blastlock > Bladelock makes no sense: it's like saying Wizard > Fighter, they cover two different roles: blastlocks keeps a distance from the enemies and focuses on buffs/ debuffs dumping AEB on them once they're done, bladelock tanks hits and helps directly dealing with the enemies in the frontlines. All around I find bladelock to be funnier to play than blastlock because you have broader options and a great variety of weapons to use.

I would disagree. You seem to be suggesting that a caster class take a role as a frontline tank, which is rarely a good move for a caster. This seems to be a case of find something the class is bad at and compare it to something the class is good at.

Both archetypes have most of their resources and abilities in their spells and mystic arcana - to focus on the small set of abilities that boost combat is doing the bladelock a disservice.

I am glad you find it fun though. I also find it fun although more fun with a little fighter/rogue added to give more combat options than just "I hit it with my weapon".

[Millstone85]

you appear to be right. At first level, this character would be using paired daggers. This entire comparison should be separated into Level 1 and level 3.I missed that. At 1st level, they indeed wouldn't have a pact weapon yet. So already favoring Dex over Cha at this point isn't so hot.

But let's say they got to 3rd level and the blade. That accounts for [1d8+Dex]. But where does the first [1d6] come from?


Unearthed Arcana is a mess so I tend to not mention itThey were talking about the regular Fighting Style (Archery) feature of the PHB fighter, not the Arcane Archer from UA.

An apt comparison since Pact of the Blade is a single feature, not a true subclass, much less its own class.

[Lombra]

I would disagree. You seem to be suggesting that a caster class take a role as a frontline tank, which is rarely a good move for a caster. This seems to be a case of find something the class is bad at and compare it to something the class is good at.

Both archetypes have most of their resources and abilities in their spells and mystic arcana - to focus on the small set of abilities that boost combat is doing the bladelock a disservice.

I am glad you find it fun though. I also find it fun although more fun with a little fighter/rogue added to give more combat options than just "I hit it with my weapon".

Yes it IS funnier with sprinkles of martial classes here an there.

To adjust my comparison contested by Dr.Clichè: I would like to use Valor Bard vs Lore Bard, but in the Bard's case, it's two archetypes that do the same things from different places of the battlefield. I feel like the Blade vs Blast are completely different one from another, and I think that using a full caster to enhance melee options isn't a loss, but a value, because if you really want and if you are in a really bad situation you can always step back and AEB-push baddies away even if you are a bladelock; "but it would be more effective anyways"; it would be boring anyways... kinda like that guy who plays sorcadin only to smite anything that enters melee range.

[Lombra]

They were talking about the regular Fighting Style (Archery) feature of the PHB fighter, not the Arcane Archer from UA.

An apt comparison since Pact of the Blade is a single feature, not a true subclass, much less its own class.

Oh thank you I totally misunderstood that, anyways I think it would still be a different case the warlock one.

[Willie the Duck]

I missed that. At 1st level, they indeed wouldn't have a pact weapon yet. So already favoring Dex over Cha at this point isn't so hot.

But let's say they got to 3rd level and the blade. That accounts for [1d8+Dex]. But where does the first [1d6] come from?


It doesn't. It is in error. The analyses is using a rapier in a two-weapon fighting scenario at 1st level. To be correct, it should:
Use paired daggers at 1st level, and
Use paired shortswords/scimitars at 3rd

[Dr. Cliché]

So, to go back to what I said before:



At the moment, I've gone with Pact of the Blade on one character (purely for fluff). He's a winged tiefling and is currently a Warlock 5, Rogue 2 and has 10 Str, 17 Dex and 16 Cha.

I don't particularly want to take a level in fighter (I'd rather focus on Warlock). Nor do I want to wear medium or heavy armour (he does have Armour of Shadows though, not least because of his wings). If it matters, one of his cantrips is Booming Blade.

Anyway, is there anything useful that can be done with Pact of the Blade with this character, or shall I invest my invocations elsewhere and just leave it as fluff?

Does anyone have an answer for this? Is there any point in investing in (Pact of the Blade) Invocations/feats for a high-dex warlock with a couple of rogue levels?

[Tanarii]

Surely a more apt comparison would be Archery Fighter vs GWF Fighter. These are subsets of the same class - not two entirely different classes.
That's actually the most apt comparison. Fighting Style vs Pact Boon.

Both are a single class feature. Both have relatively minor benefits overall. But for optimizers, both have fairly significant trickle down affects, resulting in radically different builds and play-styles, to the point they consider them to be different things.


While I'm a big fan of making versatile characters, it would be nice if bladelock was a more mechanically-appealing option for providing said backup option.It's just fine mechanically. I have several single class Warlocks with Pact of the Boon IMC, and they seem perfectly happy having an effective fall-back weapon to use. Although it's a single-class/no-feat campaign, so I can't say what their characters would look like with the added optional rules of Multiclassing and Feats.


Well, yes, but the ideal is what appears. People generally don't look at a major choice like that and say "I want a mediocre secondary option," they say "I want to be a sword-mage!"It's not mediocre.

But a sword-mage is an entirely different thing form a Warlock who chose Pact of the Blade. If that's what a player is thinking, it's incumbent on the DM to point out he'll either need to optimize fairly heavily to arrive at something similar, or choose a different class. Maybe a Fighter(EK)/Wizard(Conjurer or Transmuter for movement/teleport shenanigans) would be more up his alley, if that's what he's trying to build.

I played a Sword Mage only in 4e, so my understanding of what that class means is limited by that. I also played the 4e equivalent of a Dex-based Infernal Pact of the Blade Warlock, and recreated it for a 5e one-shot. It felt almost exactly the same. So they did a damn good job on translating IMO.

[MrStabby]

So, to go back to what I said before:



Does anyone have an answer for this? Is there any point in investing in (Pact of the Blade) Invocations/feats for a high-dex warlock with a couple of rogue levels?

Yeah, it's worth having those second attacks. If you have dipped a bit or rogue that's fine. You just need to work out how much rogue you see in your character. There is a lot of freedom. If you want more rogue then probably your main combat power will come from your attacks so worry less about higher level spells once you hit warlock 5 and get a second attack (to ensure you land the sneak attack damage). If you go arcane trickster you get a lot more flexibility from your spell slots so it augments your casting side a little as well.

If you want mainly a caster you are probably in trouble.

If you still want a close combat guy but mainly warlock you have to know that you will be needing a lot of spell support. Take the bladelock invocations but make great use of your pact magic as well. This more comes down to play-style than character build options.

[Willie the Duck]

So, to go back to what I said before:

"At the moment, I've gone with Pact of the Blade on one character (purely for fluff). He's a winged tiefling and is currently a Warlock 5, Rogue 2 and has 10 Str, 17 Dex and 16 Cha.

I don't particularly want to take a level in fighter (I'd rather focus on Warlock). Nor do I want to wear medium or heavy armour (he does have Armour of Shadows though, not least because of his wings). If it matters, one of his cantrips is Booming Blade.

Anyway, is there anything useful that can be done with Pact of the Blade with this character, or shall I invest my invocations elsewhere and just leave it as fluff?"

Does anyone have an answer for this? Is there any point in investing in (Pact of the Blade) Invocations/feats for a high-dex warlock with a couple of rogue levels?


To be sure, booming blade is something one tends to take when one doesn't have a way to get extra attacks, since you cannot do both at the same time (outside of exceptional cases that use BB as a bonus action or reaction). Likewise, the rogue character who can disengage after hitting with a BB is a strong concept. Therefore, Thirsting blade is a bit redundant, but there's nothing wrong with still picking it up for instances when BB is inappropriate. Likewise, since you've already chosen to be a bladelock, definitely pick up Lifedrinker at Warlock 12.

[Saggo]

Note that I said: better at earlier levels.

When you add in Extra Attack and Lifedrinker, then yeah, you pull away on damage. But the first boost doesn't even come until 5th.

In the meanwhile, you'll be rolling on Str or Dex with what's almost certainly a lower TH and damage bonus. And 1d8--plus being magical just like a Pact Weapon--isn't bad.

Bladelocks--right when they get their Pact Boon--should immediately be markedly better in melee than Warlocks who select a different Boon.

I also feel they shouldn't be MAD for what should be their primary damage-dealing modality. Otherwise, Agonizing Blast often makes more sense day-to-day--just take Crossbow Expert and use it nonstop, even close up. Being MAD automatically makes Bladelocks a less desirable option, imo.

It depends on your criteria. Shillelagh Tomelock has a lot of benefits and it's serviceable for nearly any campaign, but a Bladelock still edges out on offense and defense at level 3.

To-hit and mod damage are non-issues, as any melee build is likely maxing those stats similar to any Tomelock likely maxing Cha.

For any given encounter, since Shillelagh is taking a bonus action, a typical Bladelock is getting an extra Hex in. So in 2 rounds, a Tomelock is looking at 2d8+1d6 (12.5). Compared to a Str Bladelock with 4d6+2d6 (21) or a Dex Bladelock with 2d8+2d6 (16) and a superior Mage Armor. Or even to a Eldritch Blast with 2d10+2d6 (18).

That's a difference of killing an Orc in 2 rounds (Str Bladelock) and 3 rounds (Tome, Dex, EB, but the Dex Bladelock is taking less damage and acting sooner), given your typical 65% to-hit. A few points of damage isn't noticeable, for sure, but killing an Orc in one less round is.

So that is to say Tomelock isn't strictly better, it's dependent on what you're favoring for your build.

[Millstone85]

It doesn't. It is in error. The analyses is using a rapier in a two-weapon fighting scenario at 1st level. To be correct, it should:
Use paired daggers at 1st level, and
Use paired shortswords/scimitars at 3rd
CaptainSarathai mentioned "Dual-Wield", I assume the Dual Wielder feat, so a rapier plus something else is an option at 3rd level. I just think that something else should have been a dagger, because of proficiency and finesse.

Unless you rule that a warlock's proficiency with their pact weapon is about its current form, making it possible to efficiently use, as you just said, paired shortswords or paired scimitars. With the Dual Wielder feat, it could be paired rapiers.


I played a Sword Mage only in 4e, so my understanding of what that class means is limited by that. I also played the 4e equivalent of a Dex-based Infernal Pact of the Blade Warlock, and recreated it for a 5e one-shot. It felt almost exactly the same. So they did a damn good job on translating IMO.I played a 4e swordmage but not a 4e hexblade, if that's what you are talking about.

I think there are two or three ideals to aim for while building a gish:
* The self-buffer / gear-enchanter. Does everything a martial character would, except with magic coursing through flesh and metal. May focus on raw power or tricks.
* The spell-and-sword-in-accord guy. Magic rules ranged combat and weapons rule melee. Uses one or the other depending on the current situation. Very no-nonsense.

I am not sure what Pact of the Blade is best for. Str-Fiend could be the powerful self-buffer, Dex-Archfey the tricky self-buffer and Cha-whatever the S&SiA guy.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

At the moment, I've gone with Pact of the Blade on one character (purely for fluff). He's a winged tiefling and is currently a Warlock 5, Rogue 2 and has 10 Str, 17 Dex and 16 Cha.

I don't particularly want to take a level in fighter (I'd rather focus on Warlock). Nor do I want to wear medium or heavy armour (he does have Armour of Shadows though, not least because of his wings). If it matters, one of his cantrips is Booming Blade.

Anyway, is there anything useful that can be done with Pact of the Blade with this character, or shall I invest my invocations elsewhere and just leave it as fluff?

One more level of Rogue, and take the Swashbuckler archetype. I used to play a Fey pact Tiefling BladeLock/Swashbuckler, and it was awesome!

My favorite part was stacking CHA & DEX on Initiative rolls. Getting 2d6 of Sneak Attack almost every turn was nice damage boost, and the Fancy Footwork feature goes a long way towards shoring up the BladeLock's weak defenses.

Keep Armor of Shadows, don't worry about taking a level of Fighter. Booming Blade is OK, but if you've got the Thirsting Blade Invocation you're probably better off taking two melee attacks with Hex. Besides, it gives you more opportunities to land a Sneak Attack.

I'd need to know which Pact you chose to give any more advice; I played a Fey Pact up to Warlock 12/Rogue 3 so I can tell you all about that one from practice. The others I can only discuss from theory.

[Willie the Duck]

CaptainSarathai mentioned "Dual-Wield", I assume the Dual Wielder feat, so...
Whereas I just interpreted it as the act of two weapon fighting. Otherwise, I think we're in perfect agreement.


Keep Armor of Shadows, don't worry about taking a level of Fighter. Booming Blade is OK, but if you've got the Thirsting Blade Invocation you're probably better off taking two melee attacks with Hex. Besides, it gives you more opportunities to land a Sneak Attack.

three melee attacks. Even without hex, half the point of swashbucklers is being able to twf with a rogue. :-)

[Xetheral]

I have to disagree with a few of your assumptions and build choices. I'll try to keep it in order anyway. For the bladelock, if you have 14 strength you should be dual wielding Hand Axes at low levels, not Daggers. PAM is probably a better single feat investment than GWM, particularly if you're never going to consider a situation where you have advantage. I don't know why you wouldn't take Thirsting Blade at level 5 and you can't take Lifedrinker until level 12.

For all the Booming Blades, there's roughly a 0% chance that the enemy will trigger the extra damage unless you're spending extra resources to encourage them to do so. I say roughly because an enemy with multiple attacks may drop your warlock and then want to move to their next target, but then has the choice between killing you or taking extra damage to hurt someone else, and you probably don't want to be in that situation.

I don't see any comments on how you're handling bonus action use for the tomelock or the TWF and whether you're including Hex or have another reason the GWM couldn't use its bonus action so often after a critical hit. I also don't know what stats you're actually starting with. You say standard array but you're starting with 16 Cha and haven't listed what race.

For my own backup weapon comparison, the number to beat is the damage of EB with disadvantage. It takes 16 Str/Dex to do that with pact of the blade, but you have to take the invocations. Shillelagh can do that when you get the extra damage from the rider effect on the cantrip, and frequently even without the rider damage.

Thanks for your feedback! I've updated the analysis to take into account your comments and the mistakes you identified. Notable changes include a dramatically lessened proc rate for BB, the addition of Mobility (and a higher BB proc rate) to Shillelagh Tomelock, and a massively boosted proc rate for GWM on criticals. I also added a PAM Bladelock which does indeed out-damage GWM at levels beyond 12. I also fleshed out the explanation and conclusion to address some of your other concerns.

[CaptainSarathai]

It looks like I got lost on the first step. :smallconfused:

If I read this correctly... The warlock has called their pact weapon in the form of a rapier and, being 1st level and not having Thirsting Blade yet, can only attack once with it. That's [1d8+Dex]. Thanks to the Dual Wielder feat, they can make a second attack with another weapon, completely ignoring the light property but still not adding the modifier. That's apparently [1d6]. And with the hex spell playing on both hits, they get another [2d6].

But they would still want to be proficient with their second weapon and for it to have the finesse property. So I don't know what weapon they are using here.
My apologies, I was thinking Short Sword but we're not proficient, that should indeed be a dagger. Drop all 2-weapin averages by one point of damage for the error.
Also:


It doesn't. It is in error. The analyses is using a rapier in a two-weapon fighting scenario at 1st level. To be correct, it should:
Use paired daggers at 1st level, and
Use paired shortswords/scimitars at 3rd


This was an error, you are correct. The request was a comparison of Blade to Shillelagh, both of which kick in a 3rd level.

However, I feel that the point still stands. Going Shillelagh and SCAG is inferior for melee than going with Blade and dual wielding, provided you are remaining single-classed.

As much as I like the Warlock, it is without a doubt on par with the Ranger and Monk, perhaps even the Sorcerer. Simply put, they do not fill a role that the standard party would need. The other classes show a clean progression from one end of a spectrum to the other. For instance:

Barbarian -> Fighter -> Paladin -> Cleric
Fighter -> Rogue -> Bard -> Wizard

The Monk, Ranger, Warlock, and Sorcerer don't have an obvious niche in those areas. That's why, when it comes to optimization, they find themselves in a really strange place - they either don't know what they're doing, or there's a class that fits it better, or they are just too specialized to be worth optimizing.

The Warlock catches a break because it has a powerful ability built in: Eldritch Blast and modifier Invocations. If you take EB away from the Warlock, you're left with a mess. I think if you were to remove EB from the equation, you'd see a massive uptick in the use of Blade Pact, and the class would actually almost fill a niche as being something like a Cha Rogue, or a damaging Bard.

[Rhedyn]

You need a good amount of AC to WANT to be in melee.

This effects Bladelock styles more than raw damage numbers.

Str Bladelocks get 18 AC from plate from either two (half) feats or a dip. Fighter 1/Warlock X is pretty decent since you also get CON save prof

[Grod_The_Giant]

But a sword-mage is an entirely different thing form a Warlock who chose Pact of the Blade...I played a Sword Mage only in 4e
(For the record, I wasn't referring to a specific class; just a general sword-and-spells gish type build. I forgot that "Sword Mage" was an actual thing in 4e)

[JakOfAllTirades]

Whereas I just interpreted it as the act of two weapon fighting. Otherwise, I think we're in perfect agreement.



three melee attacks. Even without hex, half the point of swashbucklers is being able to twf with a rogue. :-)

For a pure Swashbuckler, I'd agree absolutely. And the same might be true for some BladeLock/Swashbucklers. However, there's something to be said for keeping a hand free for spellcasting, unless you've got the Warcaster feat. But you're already in need of DEX, CHA, and possibly the Dual Wielder feat, so maybe not?

Anyways, when I played a BladeLock/Swashbuckler, I was fortunate enough to have magic rapier for my Pact Weapon and a Pact Keeper's Rod for casting, so I fought with my Pact Weapon in one hand and the magic rod in the other. It wasn't optimized for one specific thing, but I was ready to do anything.

[CaptainSarathai]

You need a good amount of AC to WANT to be in melee.

This effects Bladelock styles more than raw damage numbers.

Str Bladelocks get 18 AC from plate from either two (half) feats or a dip. Fighter 1/Warlock X is pretty decent since you also get CON save prof

Dex Locks get AC17 from an Invocation and Dex16, at level 2, with any race. By the time any non-VHuman got the two feats, you could pump 2 ASIs in and have Dex20 for AC19. Even VHuman would have to wait for L4 at the earliest to pick up those feats.

[Zalabim]

Dex Locks get AC17 from an Invocation and Dex16, at level 2, with any race. By the time any non-VHuman got the two feats, you could pump 2 ASIs in and have Dex20 for AC19. Even VHuman would have to wait for L4 at the earliest to pick up those feats.

Mage Armor with 16 Dex is AC 16. With 20 Dex, it's AC 18. And I do believe the armored build uses mountain dwarf of V.Human to get heavy armor by level 4 without sacrificing strength (other stats suffer a bit instead). Moderately armored has a lot of value for any kind of warlock already, since it lessens dependence on Dexterity for AC and gives access to shields. Going from AC 18 with 20 Dex to AC 19 with 14 Dex relieves a lot of stat pressure allowing higher Cha and Con. Not every race is likely to have 16 Dex at level 2.

[JakOfAllTirades]

You need a good amount of AC to WANT to be in melee.

This effects Bladelock styles more than raw damage numbers.

Str Bladelocks get 18 AC from plate from either two (half) feats or a dip. Fighter 1/Warlock X is pretty decent since you also get CON save prof

It's worth noting that some of the best Warlock spells and features are triggered by being hit, so I'd take any advice for optimizing AC with a grain of salt.

I've ended a few battles by deliberately triggering an AoO.

[Rhedyn]

It's worth noting that some of the best Warlock spells and features are triggered by being hit, so I'd take any advice for optimizing AC with a grain of salt.

I've ended a few battles by deliberately triggering an AoO.
I find those spells fall off with higher levels. It seems better to me to cast something encounter changing than a single target damage spell.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I find those spells fall off with higher levels. It seems better to me to cast something encounter changing than a single target damage spell.

Note that I said spells and features. The FeyLock's Misty Escape feature is a good example. My Fey Pact BladeLock used that one after taking a hit (deliberately) from a low-level mook; one of a horde of mooks standing in our way of getting to the "boss." Then he used Misty Escape to teleport 60', targeting a point behind the Boss, and turn invisible. This gave him the opportunity to use Cunning action to Hide (he's MC'd into Rogue like Dr. Cliche's Warlock, above) and the following round, he laid into the Boss with his Pact Weapon using Hex, Sneak Attack and everything else he had. Turned out the reason the Boss had a horde of mooks in front of him was that he wasn't all that tough.

They call it Misty Escape, but the way my character used it, Misty Assault would be a better name. The last thing they expect you to do when you've just been injured is teleport deeper into enemy territory.