Undeath vs revival

[GR0PED]

Have been trying to find information on the differences between undeath and revival from a cleric point of view as I have been working on a death cleric who's death God is against undeath.

I have heard of clerics losing their powers before for reviving pcs when their gods forbid them to do such a thing and could not find much on this.. so any and all information would be great !

[Millstone85]

Revival usually requires the soul of the departed to be "free and willing" to return.
And it is my understanding that a soul isn't free to leave its afterlife without a god's help or approval, which is why most clerics are not only okay with the practice but also the main practitioners.
I have seen another player go around that limitation with a wish. It worked but then we were informed that the local god of death had taken another life in exchange. And it wasn't the life of the caster but of some innocent NPC.

Undeath might actually have very little to do with this. I would rather ask the difference between a zombie and a flesh golem.
How is animating a corpse with necrotic energy more abhorrent than animating the same corpse with an elemental spririt?
And the answer I expect is that there is something polluting about necrotic energy, or even outright evil.

[Grey Watcher]

Undeath might actually have very little to do with this. I would rather ask the difference between a zombie and a flesh golem.
How is animating a corpse with necrotic energy more abhorrent than animating the same corpse with an elemental spririt?
And the answer I expect is that there is something polluting about necrotic energy, or even outright evil.

I tend to favor the idea that the original soul is, in whole or in part, trapped or damaged by undeath (even with non-sentient undead), while a flesh golem has no more connection to its original soul(s) than the corpse(s) of which it is made had before the golem builder acquired them. This idea is hinted at in various sourcebooks, but is generally left up to each table-full of people to decide.

[Fishyninja]

Hmm interesting topic. I had a RP scenario like this.
My character is devouted to Kelemvor, so he stoutly beleives thed ead should remain dead and should not be disturbed at all so vehemently hates the undead. We found a necromancer who was trying to convince us that the zombies had no souls and were solely (huh untintentional play on words) tools imbued with magic, there was nothing in them that would class them as being once alive.

Cue theoretical debate about what is a soul for 10 mintues until the Ranger got board and skewered him from 100ft.

It is my opinion that a body that had retained a soul again could be revived (based on teh soul's will to return) as opposed to making a thing move with energy.

[Millstone85]

Of course, even with a clean energy, characters will get angry that you are using grandpa's remains to carry your stuff. They might also want you to respect the corpses of your enemies. And then there is what happens when you lose control of the living dead.

For sapient undead without a master, there has to be some other catch. Typically, it is the need to feed on others.

[Regitnui]

In case people have forgotten, flesh golems aren't exactly seen as wholesome servants either. The average D&D character would have little idea of the difference between a golem made of corpse and an actual walking corpse. Similarly, it's difficult to tell the difference between a stone golem and a statue or gargoyle until one moves or swears at you in Primordial.

[RumoCrytuf]

Of course, even with a clean energy, characters will get angry that you are using grandpa's remains to carry your stuff. They might also want you to respect the corpses of your enemies. And then there is what happens when you lose control of the living dead.

For sapient undead without a master, there has to be some other catch. Typically, it is the need to feed on others.

Respect our enemies? THEY TRIED TO KILL US!!! :P

[Millstone85]

This thread amuses me because there is a cleric of Kelemvor at our table who will not use necromancy in any form, and I do mean any form. No revival for us.

He also insists on being a holy warrior, not a healbot. :smallsigh:

[Fishyninja]

This thread amuses me because there is a cleric of Kelemvor at our table who will not use necromancy in any form, and I do mean any form. No revival for us.

He also insists on being a holy warrior, not a healbot. :smallsigh:

That's character devotion, I feel my WOTLD Monk should share a drink and talk about doctrine.

[ChildofLuthic]

I like the whole "soul trapped in undeath" explanation to explain why revival is different than zombies, say. But for vampires and such, I use the Order of the Stick explanation. Even in a vampire, some external entity controlling the undead person.

[GR0PED]

Lots of good information here and funnily enough also working on a cleric of Kelemvor who wields a scythe aka a reskinned halbered.. seems mostly straight forward for this religion as there's alot of focus on burial and proper respect to the dead.

But was curious on how other clerics treat undeath and revival on the whole.. since after all you are bringing someone back from the dead in a form. Though if undeath just involves necro powers then it seems kinda lame..

[GR0PED]

I like the whole "soul trapped in undeath" explanation to explain why revival is different than zombies, say. But for vampires and such, I use the Order of the Stick explanation. Even in a vampire, some external entity controlling the undead person.

Now that's very interesting, if undeath is explained by external control.. it would make sense the same way as when people are upset by charms etc.

[Fishyninja]

Lots of good information here and funnily enough also working on a cleric of Kelemvor who wields a scythe aka a reskinned halbered.. seems mostly straight forward for this religion as there's alot of focus on burial and proper respect to the dead.

But was curious on how other clerics treat undeath and revival on the whole.. since after all you are bringing someone back from the dead in a form. Though if undeath just involves necro powers then it seems kinda lame..

If I recall Clerics of Kelemvor were called Doomguides.

[M Placeholder]

This thread amuses me because there is a cleric of Kelemvor at our table who will not use necromancy in any form, and I do mean any form. No revival for us.

He also insists on being a holy warrior, not a healbot. :smallsigh:

He shouldn't have a problem with casting Necromantic Spells and being a Priest of Kelemvor - in previous editions, it was stated that as well as Paladins and Doomguides, there were Necromancer/Cleric twin classed members of the clergy. During the Feast of the Moon, high level priests sometimes cast True Resurrection to bring back long fallen heroes so they can despense wisdom. Kelemvorites have an entire order of their church that is dedicated to fighting outbreaks of infectious diseases in the Realms. There is also nothing in the Dogma that forbids revival (as the above example shows).

Its only the Undead that are anathema to Kelemvor, and in previous editions, priests of that order turned a blind eye to creatures like Baelhorns and concentrated their efforts on granting the final rest to undead that "procreate", like wights and vampires.

If he wants to play a holy warrior and not a healbot, then a Paladin would have been a better choice.

As for bringing someone from the dead back, then in Eberron, the gods might not even exist and nobody can ask them, in Athas (Dark Sun) there are no gods and if someone dies, there probably won't be enough of the body left to take to a cleric of sufficient level (and Clerics on that world are few and far between).

As for the Realms, all those that die in the lands under the juristriction of the Faerunian Pantheon go to the Fugue Plane and depending on their faith (or lack of it), they are either claimed by a messenger of their worshipped diety, abducted by fiends or offered a deal by them (if they are fearful of judgement), or judged by Kelemvor himself (those that gave lip service to their chosen gods) or bounded to the Wall of the Faithless (those that believed in no god - Myrkul came up with that punishment.

If you resurrect someone who's still on the Fugue Plane, then his patreon god presumably doesn't find out (unless its Kelemvor or Jergal - not sure about Myrkul). As for those that have gone to the realm of their god, I would say that the patron deity would take the view that they are still needed on the prime material plane and can still spread their faith and influence.

[JellyPooga]

Similarly, it's difficult to tell the difference between a stone golem and a statue or gargoyle until one moves or swears at you in Primordial.

I've got an image stuck in my head now of a group of Gargoyle "youths"; hanging around on church roofs, "tattoos" carved into their stoney hides, chewing on some illegal rock-like substance (you know, instead of smoking), leering at pigeons and hurling abuse at passers by. Darned teen-goyles, with their "moving around" and "not pretending to be statues" *shakes fist*

[Fishyninja]

I've got an image stuck in my head now of a group of Gargoyle "youths"; hanging around on church roofs, "tattoos" carved into their stoney hides, chewing on some illegal rock-like substance (you know, instead of smoking), leering at pigeons and hurling abuse at passers by. Darned teen-goyles, with their "moving around" and "not pretending to be statues" *shakes fist*

I think this is what the Gargoyles in Disney's Hunback of Notre Dame should have been.

[Hrugner]

I think this is what the Gargoyles in Disney's Hunback of Notre Dame should have been.

That would have been much more clever.

[Hrugner]

I think the whole undeath opinion ends up being a matter of perspective. If you can pop over to an outer realm and meet petitioners and talk to them about the afterlife, you'll think differently of resurrection than someone who is earth bound. For the planewalker types, it's little more than astral projection, just a means of visiting the prime material for awhile. Death I guess wouldn't seem like too big a deal and resurrection little more than travel. Undeath to the planewalker is going to look like something much worse. You're stealing the only reliable conveyance a soul has should they wish to return to the prime material. At the very least it would be rude and inconvenient, but it would likely be seen as theft of an important personal belonging as well.

[Temperjoke]

My interpretation of the "hating of undead" part is that the amount of hatred is on a scale. Things like zombies and skeletons, which have no higher mental functions when they act without direct orders, are terrible things that need to be released out of respect for the beings that they once were; creatures that have deliberately avoided death and have chosen an unlife, like vampires and liches, are abominations that are abhorrent to deities like Kelemvor. I think resurrection would fall on a scale like this as well. For example, a party member just died within a 10 minute time frame from "unnatural" means (like killed by an orc versus a heart attack) as opposed to a person who died almost 200 years ago. While a god like Kelemvor might frown on both, he would probably be angrier about the long-dead returning to life, instead of the newly deceased. In either case for someone who was resurrected, death is only being held at bay, not thwarted completely like undeath so it's a lesser sin. Just my thoughts on the matter, anyways. For games where this is a major concern, you could go with a Revenant version of resurrection, where you die permanently when your task is complete or after a set amount of in game time.

[Millstone85]

That's character devotion, I feel my WOTLD Monk should share a drink and talk about doctrine.
He shouldn't have a problem with casting Necromantic Spells and being a Priest of Kelemvor - in previous editions, it was stated that as well as Paladins and Doomguides, there were Necromancer/Cleric twin classed members of the clergy.I didn't know about the necro/clerics but I had a similar discussion with him when he was struggling to find a proper divine domain for his character. I told him that of course anything made for a "death cleric" would involve necromancy and necrotic energy, even if it was used to put the undead to rest. But that's just not the character he wants to play. I don't know if our DM is now reinterpreting the Church of Kelemvor to suit his vision or if his character is an extremist.

And well, I can imagine why someone would want to portray it that way...
Death I guess wouldn't seem like too big a deal and resurrection little more than travel.... for example to avoid this. I personally think it is something of a lost cause. When a story deals with the afterlife, it trivializes the mortal condition at least to a degree. But then you have that character for whom death is meaningful, death is a great mystery of the cosmos, death is equally insulted by animate dead and true resurrection.


If he wants to play a holy warrior and not a healbot, then a Paladin would have been a better choice.Our DM doesn't exactly forbid paladins but he sure discouraged me from playing one.

[Regitnui]

As for bringing someone from the dead back, then in Eberron, the gods might not even exist and nobody can ask them, in Athas (Dark Sun) there are no gods and if someone dies, there probably won't be enough of the body left to take to a cleric of sufficient level (and Clerics on that world are few and far between).

The dead of Eberron all go to Dolurrh, where they fade away into shades. Not shadows, but shades. Since Dolurrh is locked into the same orbital motion as most of Eberron's planes, resurrection spell can actually bring back more souls than intended on days when the plane is close.

[Envyus]

All Undead tend to be very hostile towards the living. Mindles ones will always attack people unless they have orders from their creators not to.

[stollfy]

If we use literature in the forgotten realms, in r.a. salvatores exile the drow used a ritual called zincarla to trap the soul in a zombie to bring more "life and skill" to the undead. Through that i would assume most zombies and skeletons are soulless unless bound with the original soul.
In regards to at least vampires, same author wrote about thibbledwarf pwent, who had been turned into a vampire, whom was trapped in a horn so they could attempt to extract his soul and revert his curse. Vampirism is often talked about as a cursed existence and is stated that people release their souls from the torment afterwards. So some semblance of the soul, i believe remains.
For liches, thats easy, they seperate their soul into a phylactory and maintain a magical connection with it while also using magic to preserve their body and mind. So the soul is no longer in the body but it is linked to the undead.

[Sir cryosin]

I get **** when I say this but I see zombies and skeletons as puppets. They are just a pile of material that you imbue with magic to give it movement. That's why they need a command. When you lose control it's just a machine going haywire and attack anything. They are just biological constructs

[Envyus]

I get **** when I say this but I see zombies and skeletons as puppets. They are just a pile of material that you imbue with magic to give it movement. That's why they need a command. When you lose control it's just a machine going haywire and attack anything. They are just biological constructs

The thing is a machine won't attack things by default.

Zombies and Skels will always attack the living unless told not to by their creator. They are animated with Necrotic energy. Which is hostile towards the living by default.

[Sir cryosin]

If you program a machine to attack anything that it sees. Then you give it commands to only attack what you want attacked. If you lose control of said machine that you programed to kill will kill anything. Your just magically programing a pile of bones to attack and kill anything living. Then you give them a command to do other functions. When the commands broken off it will run it program.