"Standard" sorcadin doesn't actually get 9th-level spells ... ? Are my maths off?

[Mace_Ironhead]

Hi, folks! Long-time lurker, first-time poster (well, except for my "hello" post. :)

I'm playing in a 3.5 game on roll20.net, and my scout/cloistered cleric/ranger recently got killed off by being stupid and not hiding/moving silently while scouting out a dungeon room (he got eaten by lifeleech otyughs, which were concealed in a dungpile ... always a horrible way to go).

So, after a quick look at the forums here, I was intrigued by the idea of the sorcadin, and decided to make one as my new character. +16 BAB *and* 9th-level spells? SIGN ME UP!

However, after building the character up to level 8 (our current party level) and introducing him, I did a bit more research into the build. It really seems to me that the "standard" sorcadin build (paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 8) does NOT actually get any 9th level spells! :smalleek:

Here are my maths ... can you tell me if I'm missing something? Maybe some obscure bit of errata, or a misreading of a chart somewhere? The character's human, not a Naenhoon-sigil Illumian as seems to be recommended, but AFAIK, that shouldn't affect the spells known progression ...

(Excuse the crappy format below, please - I don't know how to incorporate actual properly-aligned charts into a post yet.)


Class Levels, (Arcane) Caster Level, Spells/Day (0-9th), Spells Known (0-9th)
Paladin 1
0, 0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, 0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
Paladin 2
0, 0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, 0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
Sorcerer 1
1, 5/3/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, 4/2/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
Sorcerer 2
2, 6/4/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, 5/2/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
Sorcerer 3
3, 6/5/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, 5/3/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
Sorcerer 4
4, 6/6/3/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, 6/3/1/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
Spellsword 1
5, 6/6/4/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, 6/3/1/0/0/0/0/0/0/0 ***
Abjurant Champion 1
6, 6/6/5/3/0/0/0/0/0/0, 6/4/2/0/0/0/0/0/0/0
Abjurant Champion 2
7, 6/6/6/4/0/0/0/0/0/0, 7/4/2/1/0/0/0/0/0/0
Abjurant Champion 3
8, 6/6/6/5/3/0/0/0/0/0, 7/5/3/2/0/0/0/0/0/0
Abjurant Champion 4
9, 6/6/6/6/4/0/0/0/0/0, 8/5/3/2/1/0/0/0/0/0
Abjurant Champion 5
10, 6/6/6/6/5/3/0/0/0/0, 8/5/4/3/2/0/0/0/0/0
Sacred Exorcist 1
11, 6/6/6/6/6/4/0/0/0/0, 9/5/4/3/2/1/0/0/0/0
Sacred Exorcist 2
12, 6/6/6/6/6/5/3/0/0/0, 9/5/5/4/3/2/0/0/0/0
Sacred Exorcist 3
13, 6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0/0/0, 9/5/5/4/3/2/1/0/0/0
Sacred Exorcist 4
14, 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3/0/0, 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/0/0/0
Sacred Exorcist 5
15, 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0/0, 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1/0/0
Sacred Exorcist 6
16, 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3/0, 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/0/0
Sacred Exorcist 7
17, 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/0, 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1/0
Sacred Exorcist 8
18, 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3, 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/0 <-- !!!

*** - a level 1 spellsword only gets spells/day and caster level increases (by my reading), NOT spells known.

So, by my maths, the "standard" sorcadin is CAPABLE of casting 9th-level arcane spells, but doesn't actually know any!

Tell me I'm wrong, and how I'm wrong, please!

[OldTrees1]

Edit: 18th level sorceror casting(in D&D 3.5) has 1 9th level spell known
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

[OldTrees1]

Could you elaborate a bit, please? Not exactly sure how that sort of trick would work ... feats or something?

I edited my post when I realized that you might have misread a table.

So it really comes down to your interpreting Spellsword as progressing only +1 level of Spells per day rather than +1 level of Spells per day and +1 level of Spells known.

[Mace_Ironhead]

I edited my post when I realized that you might have misread a table.

Yes, an 18th-level sorcerer does get 1 9th-level spell. The problem is that spellsword 1 does NOT (by my reading) add anything to spells known. So a standard sorcadin gets the equivalent of a 18th-level sorcerer's spells/day and caster level, but only gets the spells known of a 17th-level sorcerer ... which doesn't include 9th-level spells. :(

Under the class features of Spellsword, it reads as follows:

Spells per Day: At every odd-numbered level, a spell sword gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on), save for an increased effective level of spellcasting.

Under Abjurant Champion, it reads differently:

Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) [emphasis mine] as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

The Sacred Exorcist section reads like this:

Spells per Day/Spells Known: A sacred exorcist advances in spellcasting ability as well as learning the skills of exorcism. Thus, when a new sacred exorcist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.

To further confuse things, the charts are entitled as follows:

Spellsword: Spells per Day
Abjurant Champion: Spellcasting
Sacred Exorcist: Spells per Day

[OldTrees1]

Yes, an 18th-level sorcerer does get 1 9th-level spell. The problem is that spellsword 1 does NOT (by my reading) add anything to spells known. So a standard sorcadin gets the equivalent of a 18th-level sorcerer's spells/day and caster level, but only gets the spells known of a 17th-level sorcerer.

By your reading you are correct*. In which case you would want a runestaff (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070216a) or another method of adding a 9th level spell to your spells known.

*Although I would caution against such a reading. By RAW, typos are not RAW, also there is no way that reading is RAI so I question when it would be applied.

[Mace_Ironhead]

By your reading you are correct*. In which case you would want a runestaff or another method of adding a 9th level spell to your spells known.

*Although I would caution against such a reading. By RAW, typos are not RAW, also there is no way that reading is RAI so I question when it would be applied.

DM's a bit of a stickler for RAW, unfortunately.

Also, how does having a spell on a runestaff (which he does have, thanks to Ancestral Relic) add it to the character's spells known? I mean, once he gets a 9th-level spell on his staff, he can cast the spell thanks to the Versatile Spellcaster feat, but does it actually add it to his list of spells known ... ?

Oh, and in case anyone's wondering, here's the feat progression I have planned (no flaws allowed, sadly):

HBF: Combat Casting
1: Power Attack, Alertness (granted by familiar)
3: Ancestral Relic
6: Versatile Spellcaster
9: Arcane Preparation
12: Minor Shapeshift
15: Practiced Spellcaster
18: Not sure (maybe Arcane Strike?)

[OldTrees1]

DM's a bit of a stickler for RAW, unfortunately.

Also, how does having a spell on a runestaff (which he does have, thanks to Ancestral Relic) add it to the character's spells known? I mean, once he gets a 9th-level spell on his staff, he can cast the spell thanks to the Versatile Spellcaster feat, but does it actually add it to his list of spells known ... ?

The runestaff does not actually add it as a spell known, but you can spend your 9th level slots though the staff to cast 9th level spells that you do not otherwise know. So it is good enough.

[Troacctid]

Runestaffs generally do not contain spells above 5th level.

If your DM is ruling it this way, why don't you just not take the Spellsword level? *shrug*

[OldTrees1]

Runestaffs generally do not contain spells above 5th level.

If your DM is ruling it this way, why don't you just not take the Spellsword level? *shrug*

That would make it tough to get +16BAB (although that last attack at -15 is not much to worry about). A cursory search turns up Dragonslayer 1 as an alternative although it does require both Dodge and Iron Will.

[Mace_Ironhead]

Runestaffs generally do not contain spells above 5th level.

If your DM is ruling it this way, why don't you just not take the Spellsword level? *shrug*

Generally, no, but there's nothing in the MIC that says that they can't have spells above 5th level. They also usually only have 2-5 spells on them, but again, that's just *usually* - nothing there to say that they can't have more than that.

I'm using the recommended spell list (and runestaff spell list) from the Sorcadin-Spell-List-Optimization post here on the forums (sorry, can't link yet, too much of a n00b :).

As for the DM ruling - he hasn't ruled one way or the other yet; I just want to keep it as close to what it says in the books so that I can point it out to him if he has any questions. The spellsword level's necessary for the BAB +5 requirement to enter Abjurant champion at level 8, as well. Finally, since I've already played the character in a few sessions, and incorporated how he got the spellsword level into his backstory, I can't really just dump it now. :)

[OldTrees1]

Well if you already lost 4 casting levels(1 from Sorceror, 2 from Paladin 2, 1 from your reading of Spellsword) then you will not natively get 9th level spells.

[Mace_Ironhead]

Well if you already lost 4 casting levels(1 from Sorceror, 2 from Paladin 2, 1 from your reading of Spellsword) then you will not natively get 9th level spells.

Three levels, with my reading. You don't lose a caster level for being a sorcerer - you just get the next level of spells one level later than a wizard does.

I'll run it by the DM when we play on Saturday and see what he thinks about the spellsword reading. Either way, since there's already a wizard in the party, getting 9th-level spell(s) on the staff won't be too much of a problem, so I'll still be able to use them. :)

[OldTrees1]

Three levels, with my reading. You don't lose a caster level for being a sorcerer - you just get the next level of spells one level later than a wizard does.

I said casting level not caster level. You know that Sorcerors get spell levels 1 level later than Wizards.

[Flickerdart]

*Although I would caution against such a reading. By RAW, typos are not RAW, also there is no way that reading is RAI so I question when it would be applied.

It's not a typo. "+1 of spellcasting class" has different descriptions even within Core. For example, archmage does not progress caster level.

[ATHATH]

You could take one of those feats that give you spells known, like Mother Cyst. There was an eldritch-themed one in a dragon magazine too, IIRC.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You could take one of those feats that give you spells known, like Mother Cyst. There was an eldritch-themed one in a dragon magazine too, IIRC.

Any idea where that feat is? It sounds highly relevant to my interests.

On topic: Flickerdart is right. +1 Casting means nothing consistent. We always test it as the logical reading but it's actual meaning depends on if they remember to include all the parts.

[Xethik]

Any idea where that feat is? It sounds highly relevant to my interests.

On topic: Flickerdart is right. +1 Casting means nothing consistent. We always test it as the logical reading but it's actual meaning depends on if they remember to include all the parts.
Dragon 330 is what my brain first went to but I can't really say why. Though after a quick Google search, it is the issue with mind eating on the cover so.... Probably that one?

[Crake]

Spells per Day: At every odd-numbered level, a spell sword gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on), save for an increased effective level of spellcasting.

Reading it again, I noticed this: It says the character "gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class." Ok, so this is what you get.

Then it says this is what you don't gain: "any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on)" Ok, fair enough, so no other benfit from the class.

Except it then goes on to say "save for an increased effective level of spellcasting."

Now, last I checked, a sorcerer's "spells known" was tied to their level of spellcasting, so by increasing their effective level of spellcasting, they should also gain spells known.

Edit: Archmage lacks that extra line, so it seems they still don't get their caster levels :smalltongue:

Edit2: Sacred Exorcist is a mixed bag, the special ability is titled "Spells per day/spells known" but doesn't mention spells known until the very last sentence, where it mentions
"If a character had more than one spellcasting class
in which she could cast dismissal or dispel evil before she
became a sacred exorcist, the player must decide which
class to assign each level of sacred exorcist for the purpose
of determining spells per day and spells known."
Though admittedly no mention that the sacred exorcist level actually grants spells known.

[Troacctid]

That would make it tough to get +16BAB (although that last attack at -15 is not much to worry about). A cursory search turns up Dragonslayer 1 as an alternative although it does require both Dodge and Iron Will.
Here is a complete list of prestige classes that have full BAB and advance arcane spellcasting at 1st level, including source, chassis, and all prerequisites.


Prestige Class
Source
Skills
BAB
HD
Fort
Ref
Will
Spell Req.
BAB Req.
Alignment
Skill Req.
Feat Req.
Other Req.


Abjurant Champion
CM
2 + Int
1
d10
-
-
+
1st level arcane incl. an abjuration spell
+5
-
-
Combat Casting
Proficient with at least one martial weapon


Dragon Slayer
Dr
2 + Int
1
d10
+
-
+
-
+5
-
Tumble 2
Dodge, Iron Will
-


Bladesinger
CW
2 + Int
1
d8
-
+
+
1st level arcane
+5
-
Concentration 4, Balance 2, Perform (dance) 2, Perform (sing) 2, Tumble 2
Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier)
Elf or Half-Elf


Spellsword
CW
2 + Int
1
d8
+
-
+
2nd level arcane
+4
-
Know (any) 6
-
Must be proficient with all simple and martial weapons and all armor (heavy, medium, and light); must have defeated a foe through force of arms alone, without recourse to spellcasting or special class abilities


Thrall of Demogorgon
BV/D357
4 + Int
1
d8
+
-
-
-
+4
CE
Know (arc) 2, Know (relig) 2, Know (any other) 2
Willing Deformity, Thrall to Demon
Must be able to cast 1st level spells or make sneak attacks; must be initiated in a horrific rite involving sacrificing an intelligent being to Demogorgon on unhallowed ground, at night, in the presence of a demon


Thrall of Eltab
CR
4 + Int
1
d8
+
-
-
-
-
CE
Know (planes) 8, Know (arc) 4
Willing Deformity, Deformity (Clawed Hands), Thrall to Demon
Must speak Abyssal; must have released a bound or otherwise imprisoned demon without demanding any assurances or anything in return


Thrall of Orcus
BV
2 + Int
1
d8
+
-
+
Any Necromancy spell
+4
Any evil
Know (arc) 2, Know (relig) 2
Lichloved, Thrall to Demon
Must be initiated in a rite involving the sacrifice of an intelligent being in complete darkness atop an altar made of at least 30 skulls


Verdant Lord
MW
4 + Int
1
d8
+
-
+
Control Plants
-
Any nonevil
Prof (herbalist) 8, Survival 8
Plant Control, Plant Defiance
-


Fochlucan Lyrist
CAd (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2)
6 + Int
1
d6
-
+
+
1st level arcane and divine
-
NG, TN, CN, or NE
Perform (string) 13, Decipher Script 7, Diplomacy 7, Gather Info 7, Know (nature) 7, Sleight of Hand 7
-
Bardic knowledge; evasion; must speak Druidic


Hexer
MW
2 + Int
1
d6
-
-
+
Lightning Bolt as a divine spell
-
Any nongood
Know (arc) 10, Survival 10, Spellcraft 8
-
Monstrous humanoid, giant, goblinoid, or other primitive humanoid, such as orc or gnoll




As for the DM ruling - he hasn't ruled one way or the other yet; I just want to keep it as close to what it says in the books so that I can point it out to him if he has any questions. The spellsword level's necessary for the BAB +5 requirement to enter Abjurant champion at level 8, as well. Finally, since I've already played the character in a few sessions, and incorporated how he got the spellsword level into his backstory, I can't really just dump it now. :)
Oh. Never mind the chart then, I guess.

If you've already been playing it that you get spells per day, then just keep playing it that way. That's how it's intended to work for Sorcerers anyway.

[Mace_Ironhead]

Here is a complete list of prestige classes that have full BAB and advance arcane spellcasting at 1st level, including source, chassis, and all prerequisites.

Thanks for the chart in any case! Now I can figure out how to add my own shiny-looking coloured charts to further posts. Have a cookie! :D


Reading it again, I noticed this: It says the character "gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class." Ok, so this is what you get.

Then it says this is what you don't gain: "any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on)" Ok, fair enough, so no other benfit from the class.

Except it then goes on to say "save for an increased effective level of spellcasting."

Now, last I checked, a sorcerer's "spells known" was tied to their level of spellcasting, so by increasing their effective level of spellcasting, they should also gain spells known.

When I read that paragraph the first couple of times, though, I assumed that "effective level of spellcasting" just meant caster level. However, I like your interpretation of it better, so I'll go with that one. Cookie for you, too! :D

[Troacctid]

Thanks for the chart in any case! Now I can figure out how to add my own shiny-looking coloured charts to further posts. Have a cookie! :D
Don't bother copying my formatting, it's much easier to make the chart in Google Sheets and then copy-paste it into your post in WYSIWYG mode. :smallcool: