[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Combat Kickstarter!

[Adam Meyers]

This Saturday, the Spheres of Combat kickstarter goes live!

Spheres of Combat is a book that reimagines marital combat similarly to how Spheres of Power reimagined magic. Through a system of spheres broken down by concept, you can easily build the warrior you imagine, or combine the spheres to create devastating combo techniques to break against your enemies. The book will also feature new martial class options, such as the Armiger, the Blacksmith, the Commander, the Sage, and more.

Stop on by and help us bring this new chapter for the Spheres to life!

[digiman619]

If this is even half as good as SoP, this will be amazing. I eagerly await the results!

[phlidwsn]

Will there be a tier or other option for a 'latecomers starter kit' aka Spheres of Combat & Spheres of Magic? I know I can pick up SoM at retail, but I'm lazy :)

[Psyren]

Will there be a tier or other option for a 'latecomers starter kit' aka Spheres of Combat & Spheres of Magic? I know I can pick up SoM at retail, but I'm lazy :)

Seconding this, if there's a reward tier that includes both books (dead tree, PDF, or both) then I'll throw my coppers into that.

[Ssalarn]

Will there be a tier or other option for a 'latecomers starter kit' aka Spheres of Combat & Spheres of Magic? I know I can pick up SoM at retail, but I'm lazy :)


Seconding this, if there's a reward tier that includes both books (dead tree, PDF, or both) then I'll throw my coppers into that.

I passed these requests on to Adam. He's putting the Kickstarter together as we speak, so if he doesn't get a chance to respond I'll try and convey the status of the request as soon as I know anything.

Also, I'm one of the designers working on this project :smallbiggrin:

[LordOfCain]

Who's been looking at my dreams... I should stop forgetting to wear my tinfoil hat...

[Necroticplague]

OOoh, so we're gonna get 2 PF versions of ToB? Nice, can never have too many options in that area.

[stack]

I am also working on this. Not as big a name as some people around here...

[The Glyphstone]

This Saturday, the Spheres of Combat kickstarter goes live!

Spheres of Combat is a book that reimagines marital combat similarly to how Spheres of Power reimagined magic. Through a system of spheres broken down by concept, you can easily build the warrior you imagine, or combine the spheres to create devastating combo techniques to break against your enemies. The book will also feature new martial class options, such as the Armiger, the Blacksmith, the Commander, the Sage, and more.

Stop on by and help us bring this new chapter for the Spheres to life!

The tpyo demons have struck again, it seems.

[Mehangel]

OOoh, so we're gonna get 2 PF versions of ToB? Nice, can never have too many options in that area.

If I understand correctly, Spheres of Combat isn't a Tome of Battle conversion, that's what Path of War is for. Also from what I have heard that Spheres of Combat will be sufficiently different from Path of War that you could use both and have dramatically different characters.

[LordOfCain]

The tpyo demons have struck again, it seems.

Congrats for making me laugh IRL.

[stack]

OOoh, so we're gonna get 2 PF versions of ToB? Nice, can never have too many options in that area.

I wouldn't call this a ToB like project. Our approach is fundamentally different. This is not a slight to PoW in anyway.

[Ssalarn]

If I understand correctly, Spheres of Combat isn't a Tome of Battle conversion, that's what Path of War is for. Also from what I have heard that Spheres of Combat will be sufficiently different from Path of War that you could use both and have dramatically different characters.

Correct. If you want to use Spheres of Combat with Path of War, you'll be able to, though some actions may conflict with each other or be mutually exclusive. Path of War creates a whole new system and set of terminology and lays it on top of the existing combat rules; Spheres of Combat takes the existing combat rules and builds them out, giving you tons of ways to combine actions and combat maneuvers, enhance the effects of various actions, and build out certain skills with new functionality. There are certain overlaps in design goals, like helping martial characters break away from the full attack a bit more and have more equitable action economy with spellcasters, but these are definitely two very different systems that approach enhancing combat in very different ways.

[Lirya]

I want to get Spheres of Combat right now (or at least as soon as possible), so I can fuse it with my copy of Spheres of Power and thus generate my new CRB.

[Ssalarn]

I want to get Spheres of Combat right now (or at least as soon as possible), so I can fuse it with my copy of Spheres of Power and thus generate my new CRB.

Kickstarter opens the day after tomorrow, so you don't have too much longer to wait!

[Doc_Maynot]

I am also working on this. Not as big a name as some people around here...

Some of us care stack. :smallamused:

[meemaas]

Honestly Stack is one of the authors whose names will prompt me to favor a project, alongside Ssalarn. So even if this wasnt a DDS project I'd still be all over it.

[Ssalarn]

Will there be a tier or other option for a 'latecomers starter kit' aka Spheres of Combat & Spheres of Magic? I know I can pick up SoM at retail, but I'm lazy :)


Yes, there will officially be tiers for backers who would like to pick up copies of both Spheres of Combat and Spheres of Power through their pledge, with options for both .pdf and print + .pdf.

[Ssalarn]

Apologies for the double-post, but we're finalizing the Kickstarter now, and I had a question for everyone who has expressed interest so far:

It was brought up earlier on the Paizo forums that the title "Spheres of Combat" might be a little imprecise and not the best possible title for the book; based on what we've said so far, would "Spheres of Might" appeal to you more as a title? I think it does a better job of conveying that this is a martially oriented book that will provide options that are useful for more than just fighting, but we don't want to change things at this point unless there's a broader feeling that doing so would be a positive change.

[legomaster00156]

I like the Spheres of Combat title. Spheres of Might sounds a bit too similar to Spheres of Power, and may lead to some customer confusion down the line.

[CharonsHelper]

I think I might like "Spheres of Might" a bit more. "Spheres of Combat" isn't bad, but it might lead one to think it was changing attacks/maneuvers etc. sort of like some parts of Unchained, while it sounds like it's all character options. Arguably "Might" might (pun intended) sound like it was strength focused. Maybe something like "Spheres of Valor"?

[inuyasha]

What about Spheres of Festivus

Jokes aside, I honestly think Spheres of Combat is fine, since Might implies physical strength, which not all "combat" characters necessarily possess, while combat is something that everybody goes through in D&D.

[Doc_Maynot]

Spheres of Prowess? Keeping with the SoP moniker? :smalltongue:

[Ssalarn]

Spheres of Prowess? Keeping with the SoP moniker? :smalltongue:

Now that might get confusing :smalltongue:

Forumite 1: "Did you see the new SoP supplement release?"

Forumite 2: "Yeah, it was awesome!"

Forumite 1:"What did you think of the new talents?"

Forumite 2:"I liked the one that lets you turn into a psychopomp!"

Forumite 1:"....Was that before or after the Wild Archer archetype?"

Forumite 2:"....I don't think we're talking about the same thing."

[Doc_Maynot]

Well then we could just shift to SoPow and SoPro. :smallwink:

[digiman619]

I like Spheres of Might, personally.

[Mehangel]

I think I like Spheres of Valor, although I also didn't have much of a problem with it being Spheres of Combat either.

[inuyasha]

"I liked the one that lets you turn into a psychopomp!""

Is there a thing that lets you turn into a Psychopomp? I need this thing.

[khadgar567]

By the way guys n jolly is in the dream team to this product may stole starfinders throne

[Doc_Maynot]

By the way guys n jolly is in the dream team to this product may stole starfinders throne


n jolly

N Jolly, Stack, and Sslarn? I already am throwing money at this the moment it starts, I don't need more reasons to.

[Eldaran]

Sounds amazing, SoP has slowly grown to become my favorite Pathfinder book. I do like Spheres of Valor suggestion the most, but I think as long as it has "Spheres" in the name it will be fine. Gotta have that brand recognition.

[khadgar567]

by the way whats the sage classes job act like blind master on mountain type character or something wholely diffrent

[N. Jolly]

By the way guys n jolly is in the dream team to this product may stole starfinders throne

Oh yeah, I am. Fancy that.

[digiman619]

I take it back, Spheres of Valor sounds even better. That's got my vote.

EDIT: If nothing else, it rhymes. That's gotta count for something.

[Ualaa]

I can see some interesting multiclassing going on...
I'll have the spheres of Conjuration, Divination, Life, with the spheres of Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee.

If anything, I'd change the name of the martial stuff to not be Spheres.
But that is hard, since SoP is such a kick-ass awesome product, and you want the brand recognition.

Despite martial disciplines within Path of War, in the D&D context a Discipline equates to psionics in my mind.
As a Sphere now implies magic.
I'd personally like a classification of martial options, that implies martial and not spheres/magic.

[Psyren]

Is it too late to call the first one "Spheres of Magic" and this one "Spheres of Might?" And then the inevitable compilation release can be "Spheres of Power" :smalltongue:

It probably is too late but that would have been my time traveler vote.

More pragmatically, I have no problems with "Spheres of Combat." It's already obvious (from Ultimate Combat and Inner Sea Combat) that "Combat" means "stuff for martials" in PF parlance.

[A.J.Gibson]

I would have kept 'of Power' instead, and exchanged the words spheres for something else. Maybe 'Styles' because of the different combat styles?

[Mehangel]

A request, can Spheres of Combat include a custom Neceros Style Character Sheet (https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1251675.jpg) that offers 2 or 3 additional columns in the 'Class Recorder' section to keep track of caster level, talents, and spell point totals? It could either be included as a minor milestone, add-on, or part as the Spheres of Power + Spheres of Combat package.

[khadgar567]

I would have kept 'of Power' instead, and exchanged the words spheres for something else. Maybe 'Styles' because of the different combat styles?
how about martials of power its the name i was thinking when the project requested on paizo forums.

[stack]

The spheres aspect of the name functions both as a mechanical description (the system is organized into 'spheres') and as branding (paralleling the studio's other major system). I think focusing on spheres rather than power is stronger branding.

[khadgar567]

@stack whats the sages focus in the setting

[Adam Meyers]

The Kickstarter is now live! (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1708940685/spheres-of-might-a-new-pathfinder-martial-system)

And, after hearing comments both here and in other locations, the name has now been changed to Spheres of Might. I hope that doesn't disappoint anyone. :P

[Milo v3]

Will this be able to do over the top martial stuff at high levels or just be balanced martials?

[Ssalarn]

Will this be able to do over the top martial stuff at high levels or just be balanced martials?

So, all martial characters are going to have level-appropriate options available to them that expand their capabilities laterally, opening up options like control, buffing, debuffing, and various other options.

In the optional Legendary Talents section, you'll have the really over-the-top stuff that might not suit all campaigns, similar to the Advanced Talents section of Spheres of Power. This is going to be where you'll get the abilities inspired by mythological characters like Chu Culainn, Hercules, and Pecos Bill, letting you do stuff like rapidly hack your way through a mountain, punch a river off its course, or swing your sword so hard you cut reality and open a portal to another location.

[meemaas]

Cutting cannonballs in half? Can that be an option? Lol.

Hey, you guys might want to change the thread title to go along with the books name. Can't wait to put my pledge in this week.

[Ssalarn]

Cutting cannonballs in half? Can that be an option?

Yes.



Lol.

Hey, you guys might want to change the thread title to go along with the books name. Can't wait to put my pledge in this week.

I think Adam may have inadvertently created another thread when he came in to fix the title on this one; I'll try and follow up with him so we can fix that. How hard is it normally to get a moderator to merge threads?

[meemaas]

Far as I know you just need to report your opening post and they'll get to it when they can.

[Eldaran]

So looking at the Kickstarter it looks like you're going with Gennifer Bone's art again. Can I ask why? One of the common criticisms I see of SoP is the artwork, and I must agree. Gennifer Bone's artwork seems really bad to me, it clashes strongly with the general Pathfinder aesthetic.

[khadgar567]

So looking at the Kickstarter it looks like you're going with Gennifer Bone's art again. Can I ask why? One of the common criticisms I see of SoP is the artwork, and I must agree. Gennifer Bone's artwork seems really bad to me, it clashes strongly with the general Pathfinder aesthetic.
some how I like to see sajin using armiger stuff as concept art for this product or valerios using convict class to flesh that background of his.

[Manyasone]

I'm reading Legendary talents and 'over-the-top' and I'm visualizing the 'Warriors' Franchise from Koei...But also Guts from Berserk, for instance

[legomaster00156]

Will you be able to eat magic and break rainbows in half? :smallbiggrin:

[Mehangel]

I just hope that talents that allow shields to block ray attacks or breath weapons are not considered "legendary talents". Using weapons to cut through spells as a legendary talent on the other hand, is something I wouldn't mind.

[digiman619]

The Kickstarter is now live! (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1708940685/spheres-of-might-a-new-pathfinder-martial-system)

And, after hearing comments both here and in other locations, the name has now been changed to Spheres of Might. I hope that doesn't disappoint anyone. :P

...Aaaaaaand funded! Within 24 hours, too.

[LordOfCain]

...Aaaaaaand funded! Within 24 hours, too.

I mean... I'm pretty sure everyone was at least sorta expecting that...

[digiman619]

I mean... I'm pretty sure everyone was at least sorta expecting that...

True, but it's good to see nonetheless.

[Ssalarn]

I mean... I'm pretty sure everyone was at least sorta expecting that...


The team is super grateful and thankful to everyone who pledged to this project! Thank you, everybody, seriously.


I just hope that talents that allow shields to block ray attacks or breath weapons are not considered "legendary talents". Using weapons to cut through spells as a legendary talent on the other hand, is something I wouldn't mind.

Definitely not; Legendary Talents are going to be the really big, flashy effects that may be immersion breaking for some groups. I think that deflecting breath weapons and spells with your shield are really classic martial tropes that should be right in the base system.

[digiman619]

My finances are a bit tight right now, so I won't be able to back it, but rest assured, I will be ready to buy it day 1 it comes out.

[Troacctid]

I already spent my D&D budget on DDAL stuff, but I'm definitely looking forward to catching the OGL version later!

[Eldaran]

I just hope that talents that allow shields to block ray attacks or breath weapons are not considered "legendary talents". Using weapons to cut through spells as a legendary talent on the other hand, is something I wouldn't mind.

This already exists in Pathfinder, Ray Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ray-shield-combat) blocks rays and tower shields can grant total cover from a breath weapon (though it's kind of awkward to use).

[ZamielVanWeber]

If this has showed up sooner I would asked for it for Christmas. That being said I will see if my finances can swing a pledge.

[Mehangel]

This already exists in Pathfinder, Ray Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ray-shield-combat) blocks rays and tower shields can grant total cover from a breath weapon (though it's kind of awkward to use).

Yes, but at the cost of four feats and being a level 10 fighter. But as a basic talent, it should be available at 1st level, assuming that Spheres of Might function in the same manner as Spheres of Power.

[Milo v3]

Yes, but at the cost of four feats and being a level 10 fighter. But as a basic talent, it should be available at 1st level, assuming that Spheres of Might function in the same manner as Spheres of Power.

It's worrying when using shields to block rays requires a higher level than cutting mind-affecting spells by punching them....

[digiman619]

First preview is up (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLaYQEFAWU4zQBx58boJPPaySLgJc0Emmw9eKyIJeGI/edit#heading=h.dc1tasckj5bg). Just started looking at it; more details when I've finished.

Looks good so far. Armiger was perhaps not the best choice as a preview class, as grasping the new concepts can be difficult enough, but I muddled through. The fact that the Might-y have a "martial focus" (Basically choosing one sphere effect to get a passive from at a time) makes me want the whoel thing now so I can make a Psychic Warrior archetype that had both kinds of focus. The best analogy for the Athletics sphere is that it's like the Nature sphere: lots of options based around one type of athletics. Sniping was smaller, but I already am planning on how to make an elementalist with this sphere.

So far, so awesome. 'Nuff said.

[LordOfCain]

first preview is up (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLaYQEFAWU4zQBx58boJPPaySLgJc0Emmw9eKyIJeGI/edit#heading=h.dc1tasckj5bg). Just started looking at it; more details when I've finished.

Oh joy, oh joy!

[Milo v3]

Wall Leaper doesn't do anything aside from create an air-breathing mermaid problem. Jumping doesn't take a move-action, it's part of your move action. You can already jump whenever you want in Core PF and nothing in the rules prevents characters from jumping multiple times in a round already.

Aside from that it looks good, and I look forward to actually being able to play a character who uses multiple types of weapons. Though I'm surprised it doesn't get any bonus feats to deal with how many feats some weapon types require.

Edit: Are Dedicate and Deadly Shot packages or do you get both when you take the Sniping sphere?

[stack]

Wall Leaper doesn't do anything aside from create an air-breathing mermaid problem. Jumping doesn't take a move-action, it's part of your move action. You can already jump whenever you want in Core PF.

Aside from that it looks good, and I look forward to actually being able to play a character who uses multiple types of weapons. Though I'm surprised it doesn't get any bonus feats to deal with how many feats some weapon types require.
We will get the jump issue sorted.

The armiger can have different spheres and talents on each bonded weapon and various spheres (not shown yet, obviously) ameliorate the need for the various weapon style enabling feats, so unless you really want weapon focus a bunch of times it shouldn't be an issue in the full product.

[Milo v3]

The armiger can have different spheres and talents on each bonded weapon and various spheres (not shown yet, obviously) ameliorate the need for the various weapon style enabling feats, so unless you really want weapon focus a bunch of times it shouldn't be an issue in the full product.
I was more referring to things like how many feats archery needs than weapon focus. :smalltongue:
Though the class does definitely provide incentive for taking feats like vital strike which can apply to any weapon.

[Ssalarn]

I was more referring to things like how many feats archery needs than weapon focus. :smalltongue:
Though the class does definitely provide incentive for taking feats like vital strike which can apply to any weapon.

The need for a lot of those feats is greatly ameliorated by associated spheres. The various ranged archery styles and Two-Weapon Fighting, in particular, have a lot more tricks and access points through spheres and so generally you won't feel as much pressure to have to acquire 6 or 7 feats to make that combat style functional and effective.

[stack]

I was more referring to things like how many feats archery needs than weapon focus. :smalltongue:
Though the class does definitely provide incentive for taking feats like vital strike which can apply to any weapon.

The ranged combat feat tax is intended to be less of an issue in the complete product.

[Ssalarn]

Wall Leaper doesn't do anything aside from create an air-breathing mermaid problem. Jumping doesn't take a move-action, it's part of your move action. You can already jump whenever you want in Core PF and nothing in the rules prevents characters from jumping multiple times in a round already.

Aside from that it looks good, and I look forward to actually being able to play a character who uses multiple types of weapons. Though I'm surprised it doesn't get any bonus feats to deal with how many feats some weapon types require.

Edit: Are Dedicate and Deadly Shot packages or do you get both when you take the Sniping sphere?


Deadly Shot is a base ability, the Dedicate effect is a bonus you get when you dedicate your martial focus to that sphere.

[Lirya]

It should probably be mentioned under the definition of Martial Focus if you can keep it up out of combat or not. I would tend to assume that you can do this as it helps the skill bonuses, and the mention that it persists until you expend it. Still I have seen massive discussions on the paizo rule-forum about matters that should have been even more clear.

Overall, it looks promising and I look forward to studying it more closely in days to come.

[Ssalarn]

It should probably be mentioned under the definition of Martial Focus if you can keep it up out of combat or not. I would tend to assume that you can do this as it helps the skill bonuses, and the mention that it persists until you expend it. Still I have seen massive discussions on the paizo rule-forum about matters that should have been even more clear.

Overall, it looks promising and I look forward to studying it more closely in days to come.

It is definitely intended to be something you can maintain out of combat; I'll see if we can't do something to make that even more clear.

[jamieth]

A couple questions based on what's currently revealed:

Armiger + Covering Fire talent: if an armiger declares a zone of covering fire, does it lock him into doing AoOs into that zone with a ranged weapon Covering Fire is invested into? Is the ability to make those ranged AoOs retained if the Armiger switches to a different weapon in the course of the turn, then back to the weapon Covering Fire was declared with?

"The armiger may not use talents invested in a bonded weapon to qualify for feats or to meet other prerequisites unless otherwise noted." Does it mean Armiger flat out can't qualify for feats requiring specific talents unless he gets the talents from sources outside Armiger's talent progression?

Also outside the off-class talent sources, am I reading it right that Armiger essentially can't select non-base-sphere talents until level 4 at the earliest - or, rather, he can select, but not benefit from them?

[khadgar567]

small question can armiger and armorist work together

[stack]

A couple questions based on what's currently revealed:

Armiger + Covering Fire talent: if an armiger declares a zone of covering fire, does it lock him into doing AoOs into that zone with a ranged weapon Covering Fire is invested into? Is the ability to make those ranged AoOs retained if the Armiger switches to a different weapon in the course of the turn, then back to the weapon Covering Fire was declared with?

"The armiger may not use talents invested in a bonded weapon to qualify for feats or to meet other prerequisites unless otherwise noted." Does it mean Armiger flat out can't qualify for feats requiring specific talents unless he gets the talents from sources outside Armiger's talent progression?

Also outside the off-class talent sources, am I reading it right that Armiger essentially can't select non-base-sphere talents until level 4 at the earliest - or, rather, he can select, but not benefit from them?

Covering fire is an attack action, so unless you have a way to attack with you move it swift you probably won't benefit from changing away from the weapon you are getting covering fire from. Can you still benefit from a talent that you used to grant an ability with a duration but don't currently possess? Good question. A spell's duration doesn't end if you lose the knowledge of the spell, so in the current wording I would say the armiger could change to a different range weapon and make the covering fire attacks.

The armiger can qualify for feats using his normal talents progression (1 per even level). You can't use the talents you are gaining from your weapons, purely to avoid the issue of having a feat you qualified for using a talent you no longer possess.

Many armigers will want to select base spheres with their normal progression and bonus talents at low levels then expand those spheres using their weapons. There is a technique to increase the talents granted by a bonded weapon, helping you to add options earlier. Another way to build, once the full set of spheres is available, will be to have talents enabling a specific weapon in that weapon (giving you the equivalent of precise shot on a bow for example) and more general talents for movement or that work with a variety of spheres on your base progression.

Khadgar - summon weapon wouldn't be good for an armiger, and bound weapon suffers if you multiclass, though there is no reason a bound weapon could t also be a bonded weapon. Probably not a lot of synergy here though, despite similarities in name and theme.

[jamieth]

The armiger can qualify for feats using his normal talents progression (1 per even level). You can't use the talents you are gaining from your weapons, purely to avoid the issue of having a feat you qualified for using a talent you no longer possess.
That implies I was reading the very core of Armiger wrongly, then :-) I assumed it was "1 maneuver per 2 levels (plus 2 at 1st), and assign maneuver to your weapons from among those you learned. So, Armiger can assign any talents he qualifies for to the bonded weapons, essentially changing majority of his talents every day if desired?~

[NomGarret]

That implies I was reading the very core of Armiger wrongly, then :-) I assumed it was "1 maneuver per 2 levels (plus 2 at 1st), and assign maneuver to your weapons from among those you learned. So, Armiger can assign any talents he qualifies for to the bonded weapons, essentially changing majority of his talents every day if desired?~

Yeah, it took me a couple read-throughs to figure that out as well. I think a line or two of clarifying text is in order. As to the bonded weapons, I don't think they can be swapped out daily, as it's an 8 hour bonding process per weapon. So, you can bond with a new weapon set or two on a day off, or "rebond" on a day off, I suppose.

Does the following example make sense? Am I reading it right?

Sitcon the 1st level Armiger has the following talents, not opting to gain extra through feats, traditions, etc: Sniping and Athletics (Run). He has also bound a bow, a sword, and a trident. The bow has the Covering Fire talent. The sword has the Swift Movement talent. The trident has the Athletics (Swim) package.

[stack]

Yeah, it took me a couple read-throughs to figure that out as well. I think a line or two of clarifying text is in order. As to the bonded weapons, I don't think they can be swapped out daily, as it's an 8 hour bonding process per weapon. So, you can bond with a new weapon set or two on a day off, or "rebond" on a day off, I suppose.

Does the following example make sense? Am I reading it right?

Sitcon the 1st level Armiger has the following talents, not opting to gain extra through feats, traditions, etc: Sniping and Athletics (Run). He has also bound a bow, a sword, and a trident. The bow has the Covering Fire talent. The sword has the Swift Movement talent. The trident has the Athletics (Swim) package.

You have it. I was concerned that the wording wasn't clear and that concern has proven valid. We'll work on making the intent more obvious.

[legomaster00156]

I hope this book includes ways to play the "blind master" archetype effectively. Blind-Fight only goes so far.

[jamieth]

You have it. I was concerned that the wording wasn't clear and that concern has proven valid. We'll work on making the intent more obvious.

Ah, ok, thanks for clarification

[Mehangel]

summon weapon wouldn't be good for an armiger, and bound weapon suffers if you multiclass, though there is no reason a bound weapon could t also be a bonded weapon. Probably not a lot of synergy here though, despite similarities in name and theme.

Any chance of adding a feat that either:

Allows an armiger to devote one slot of "bonded weapon" to the armorist's "summoned weapons", counting any weapon summoned via the armorist's ability to be counted as being bonded.

or

Allows an armorist to count armiger levels to determine the enhancement bonuses of either his bound equipment or summoned equipment (but not for determining any other class features)?

or

Allows an armiger's bonded bonuses to stack with the enhancement bonus of any armorist bound equipment they have bonded with.

[stack]

Interesting ideas for cross- over material. We will see how much SoP support we end up having in the base book verses a release dedicated to blending the systems. Part of the answer will depend on stretch goals I believe. We are excited about the possibilities of blending the two.

[Mehangel]

Interesting ideas for cross- over material. We will see how much SoP support we end up having in the base book verses a release dedicated to blending the systems. Part of the answer will depend on stretch goals I believe. We are excited about the possibilities of blending the two.

On the topic of cross-over material, I would also like to see feats that offer Stamina system support. For example a feat that allows you to regain or switch Martial Focus as a Move action by spending X stamina points, as a Swift action by spending 2X stamina points, or as an immediate action by spending 3X stamina points.

I would prefer that such Stamina integration is done via feats, so that people using Spheres of Might dont need another book (Pathfinder Unchained) to use basic talents; but are still available to those that do use the Stamina system.

[khadgar567]

well its hit the final stretch goal today looks like this book needs major stretch goals like 20k or more. looks like eventual spheres of power patch is lot closer then we think

[LordOfCain]

well its hit the final stretch goal today looks like this book needs major stretch goals like 20k or more. looks like eventual spheres of power patch is lot closer then we think

It already has those:
https://i.imgsafe.org/516701de20.png
They just weren't in the update.

[digiman619]

well its hit the final stretch goal today looks like this book needs major stretch goals like 20k or more. looks like eventual spheres of power patch is lot closer then we think

Umm... I think you might not have read the stretch goals right. Now it's a 12K, we're getting ways for monsters to use SoM, but we still have two more stretch goals: at 15K, we get "even more archetypes", implied to also include archetypes for Paizo martials and (maybe) some SoP classes, and at 20K it's "expanded GM support" by including a mini bestiary of martial monsters of all CRs. If and when we top 20K, then we'll worry about more stretch goals.

[khadgar567]

sorry guys

[AlienFromBeyond]

Khadgar - summon weapon wouldn't be good for an armiger, and bound weapon suffers if you multiclass, though there is no reason a bound weapon could t also be a bonded weapon. Probably not a lot of synergy here though, despite similarities in name and theme.
Could be good for a feat or prestige class though, like DSP did with Soulknife + Psychic Warrior. Given the money raised thus far, a stretch goal for SoM + SoP crossover material would probably be reached, it would be quite popular I think.

[Ssalarn]

Could be good for a feat or prestige class though, like DSP did with Soulknife + Psychic Warrior. Given the money raised thus far, a stretch goal for SoM + SoP crossover material would probably be reached, it would be quite popular I think.

SoP/SoM crossover materials are definitely something that's going to happen, it's just a matter of when and where, and whether it will be part of SoM, a separate add-on type book, or something produced after the fact. We're definitely aware of the demand though, and the design team spent a good chunk of time the other night discussing the many possibilities (like how a Warp armiger is pretty much a must).

[digiman619]

SoP/SoM crossover materials are definitely something that's going to happen, it's just a matter of when and where, and whether it will be part of SoM, a separate add-on type book, or something produced after the fact. We're definitely aware of the demand though, and the design team spent a good chunk of time the other night discussing the many possibilities (like how a Warp armiger is pretty much a must).

I remember seeing Noctis from FFXV and thinking "Well, he's clearly an Armorist with the Warp sphere" until the Armiger showed up.

[Ssalarn]

I remember seeing Noctis from FFXV and thinking "Well, he's clearly an Armorist with the Warp sphere" until the Armiger showed up.


Armorist is a little better at whipping up exactly the right tool for the job, armiger is better at using all the tools. I see Armorist as more Erza Scarlet from Fairy Tail to the Armiger's non-magical Noctis.

I think we're doing some minor rewrite and terminology changes to clarify what the armiger is and how it's doing it though; instead of "bonded" weapons and "investing" talents, it's going to be presented more as the armiger optimizing particular pieces of equipment for his use, with sights designed for hip-firing, shoulder straps and belt hooks to make the weapons easier to store and retrieve, etc. Not really any mechanical changes other than a few clean-ups on some mechanics that were a little confusing to some readers, but a bit more of a shift in tone and presentation.

[Troacctid]

I think we're doing some minor rewrite and terminology changes to clarify what the armiger is and how it's doing it though; instead of "bonded" weapons and "investing" talents, it's going to be presented more as the armiger optimizing particular pieces of equipment for his use, with sights designed for hip-firing, shoulder straps and belt hooks to make the weapons easier to store and retrieve, etc. Not really any mechanical changes other than a few clean-ups on some mechanics that were a little confusing to some readers, but a bit more of a shift in tone and presentation.
I like the sound of that.

[digiman619]

Now that we're going to get GM support, the next really important question arises:

What series will they obliquely mention in describing how to customize the setting? Or we get A:TLA again?

[stack]

Now that we're going to get GM support, the next really important question arises:

What series will they obliquely mention in describing how to customize the setting? Or we get A:TLA again?
Soul Caliber?
Nah.

[phlidwsn]

Soul Caliber?
Nah.

Dark Souls?

[meemaas]

Looking at the Preview document there's only one real thing that stands out as possibly bad and I wanted to bring that up. The Armiger's Rapid Assault notes it triggers on an attack action, like Vital Strike, and the follow-up attacks are attacks of opportunity. In Core Paizo that isn't a bad option, but considering the more recent options made available to Paizo materials, in addition to a specific feat from DSP, which I'm aware you guys don't balance against, but I'm still bringing it up, there's the possibility of gaining Vital Strike on AoO's as well, and that can start to get out of hand, even with the required multiple weapon change.

In other words, while I don't expect you to change it based solely on the existence of the DSP material, I suggest you check numbers on that and possibly future proof it against future Paizo material that may make that possibility more available.

[Eldaran]

Looking at the Preview document there's only one real thing that stands out as possibly bad and I wanted to bring that up. The Armiger's Rapid Assault notes it triggers on an attack action, like Vital Strike, and the follow-up attacks are attacks of opportunity. In Core Paizo that isn't a bad option, but considering the more recent options made available to Paizo materials, in addition to a specific feat from DSP, which I'm aware you guys don't balance against, but I'm still bringing it up, there's the possibility of gaining Vital Strike on AoO's as well, and that can start to get out of hand, even with the required multiple weapon change.

In other words, while I don't expect you to change it based solely on the existence of the DSP material, I suggest you check numbers on that and possibly future proof it against future Paizo material that may make that possibility more available.

I suspect their intention with using terms like attack action and attack of opportunity is quite the opposite. Rather than making it future proof, it makes it open to any other material. Paizo won't be publishing material that affects a Path of War maneuver (for example), but they will publish stuff related to attacks of opportunity.

[meemaas]

I suspect their intention with using terms like attack action and attack of opportunity is quite the opposite. Rather than making it future proof, it makes it open to any other material. Paizo won't be publishing material that affects a Path of War maneuver (for example), but they will publish stuff related to attacks of opportunity.

I understand that. But what comes to mind to me is the possibility of Paizo publishing more material that allows Vital Strike on AoO's, and that snowballing from there. The first thought that came to mind was the very broad Seize the Opportunity feat that Path of War released, and there is nothing to say that Paizo won't do something similar locked behind some feat tree.

On such a possibility, it snowballs from one attack with the dice multiplied, up to the possibility of rolling four attacks with the dice multiplied up to four times at level 16, and all at the same BAB. While Vital Strike isn't the greatest of feats, that still adds up fast, and every time it becomes available, it multiplies. That's all I'm suggesting with the suggestion to future proof it.

[stack]

We are aware of potential issues with seize the opportunity. The combat maneuver aspect of the feat should be fine for the most part, but it is a lot of damage. I don't expect it is likely that Paizo would publish a feat that generates similar issues, but we will take a look and see if we need to adjust the wording.

[Sayt]

I understand that. But what comes to mind to me is the possibility of Paizo publishing more material that allows Vital Strike on AoO's, and that snowballing from there. The first thought that came to mind was the very broad Seize the Opportunity feat that Path of War released, and there is nothing to say that Paizo won't do something similar locked behind some feat tree.

On such a possibility, it snowballs from one attack with the dice multiplied, up to the possibility of rolling four attacks with the dice multiplied up to four times at level 16, and all at the same BAB. While Vital Strike isn't the greatest of feats, that still adds up fast, and every time it becomes available, it multiplies. That's all I'm suggesting with the suggestion to future proof it.

Not a feat tree, halfway through a 10 level PRC that does a lot of "attack as a standard action, with [rider]" you get "whenever you make a melee attack as a standard action, you can improved vital strike"

[Ssalarn]

I suspect their intention with using terms like attack action and attack of opportunity is quite the opposite. Rather than making it future proof, it makes it open to any other material. Paizo won't be publishing material that affects a Path of War maneuver (for example), but they will publish stuff related to attacks of opportunity.

There is quite a bit of truth to this.


Not a feat tree, halfway through a 10 level PRC that does a lot of "attack as a standard action, with [rider]" you get "whenever you make a melee attack as a standard action, you can improved vital strike"

I don't think there'd be any issue with a mechanic like that intersecting with SoM at all. If anything, it sounds more like it's something that's specifically trying to make itself not compatible with things like the mechanics in SoM, but I'd have to look it over to be sure.


I understand that. But what comes to mind to me is the possibility of Paizo publishing more material that allows Vital Strike on AoO's, and that snowballing from there. The first thought that came to mind was the very broad Seize the Opportunity feat that Path of War released, and there is nothing to say that Paizo won't do something similar locked behind some feat tree.

On such a possibility, it snowballs from one attack with the dice multiplied, up to the possibility of rolling four attacks with the dice multiplied up to four times at level 16, and all at the same BAB. While Vital Strike isn't the greatest of feats, that still adds up fast, and every time it becomes available, it multiplies. That's all I'm suggesting with the suggestion to future proof it.

I don't think there's a lot beyond a sidebar with a general admonition for GMs to be aware of the possible consequences of introducing feats from outside the CRB and SoM that give you additional attack actions or allow you to treat other types of actions as attack actions that can or really should be done, but we're definitely aware of the possibilities there and are keeping them in mind. I've been doing some number crunching between the Daevic (Justice), as a 3pp source built without SoM in mind who gets attack action as AoO upgrades, the Blacksmith class from SoM, and a Paizo Fighter Archer (a loose equivalent for a core class that can operate at closer to maximum effectiveness every round without having to take movement breaks to get back into full attack distance) to gauge where the effects of various abilities are moving numbers and general performance to, and things are fairly solid.

As was noted, there is one potentially problematic feat from a popular 3pp source, but I think it's better to warn that such a feat could prove problematic and let the GM make their own wise choices about how they want to handle that interaction than it is to throw out a really great natural rules framework for a solid system that has so much to offer.

[khadgar567]

is there a way to monk to pull kenshiro or chun li(Hyakuretsukyaku for fans out there
) as standard action (like throwing 1d100 and use as attack count on unarmed strike)

[Ssalarn]

is there a way to monk to pull kenshiro or chun li(Hyakuretsukyaku for fans out there
) as standard action (like throwing 1d100 and use as attack count on unarmed strike)

No, mostly because the Foot sphere (name very much subject to change) is still being worked on. We've got Boxing and Open Hand as the two developed unarmed combat spheres, along with Wrestling which is adjacent but a little different since there's not much raw unarmed striking in it, and that covers pretty much everything except kicks, which we're still hammering out. I definitely want something that represents that classic Chun Li flurry of quick light kicks in the final document, but I can't speak to how it'll look mechanically just yet.

[Sayt]

Oh, speaking of the wrestling sphere, is it pulling more from wrestling-the-sport(College wrestling, judo, pankrator) or Wrestling-the-TV-Show(WWF)?

Also, what are the chances of of a feat to get flat damage with firearms and crossbows with less investment than 5 levels in a class?

Also, I have this wry little smile on my face cause of a magic item I brewed a year or two back called the 'Gauntlets of the Armiger', which was basically a hand-slot AoMF that affected any wielded weapons, and was partially intended to mix up weapon use xD

[LordOfCain]

No, mostly because the Foot sphere (name very much subject to change)
Aw... Ya sure you gotta change it?

[stack]

Aw... Ya sure you gotta change it?

There was once an extended family that developed and mastered the foot sphere. They became known as...

The sphere clan.

No, wait, the other one.

[Korahir]

The Footfist Way? There sure is a copyright infringement involved though :P

On a more serious note: thanks for everything you (Meaning the wole DDS) do here and with spheres of power. Simply incredible work.

[RedMop]

SoP/SoM crossover materials are definitely something that's going to happen, it's just a matter of when and where, and whether it will be part of SoM, a separate add-on type book, or something produced after the fact. We're definitely aware of the demand though, and the design team spent a good chunk of time the other night discussing the many possibilities (like how a Warp armiger is pretty much a must).

I don't think crossover stuff should be part of SoM Core. Maybe people like the old style casting, and just want to give the martials some love. They would be paying for stuff they will never use.

Absolutely do crossover with SoP, but maybe in another book.

[khadgar567]

I don't think crossover stuff should be part of SoM Core. Maybe people like the old style casting, and just want to give the martials some love. They would be paying for stuff they will never use.

Absolutely do crossover with SoP, but maybe in another book.
agreed maybe part of spheres of might expended options were we submit our works to expend the material .

[digiman619]

What I think might be a good idea is rather than have archetypes for, say, mageknights and elementalists, have archetypes for magi, warpriests and other 6th/4th casters that are stackable with their SoP conversion archetypes.

[khadgar567]

What I think might be a good idea is rather than have archetypes for, say, mageknights and elementalists, have archetypes for magi, warpriests and other 6th/4th casters that are stackable with their SoP conversion archetypes.
If they stack with out interfacing each other to much we might break the freaking game in half by creating jack and jills of all trade masters of sekai itself .

[digiman619]

If they stack with out interfacing each other to much we might break the freaking game in half by creating jack and jills of all trade masters of sekai itself .

I'm not saying that we should give Incanters an archetype that grants them an equivalent amount of combat talents. I'm just saying that mid- and low-casters getting mid- to low-amounts of combat talents seems fair, seeing as they're supposed to be halfway between full casters and full martials.

[khadgar567]

I'm not saying that we should give Incanters an archetype that grants them an equivalent amount of combat talents. I'm just saying that mid- and low-casters getting mid- to low-amounts of combat talents seems fair, seeing as they're supposed to be halfway between full casters and full martials.
still this looks way to iffy even for me and i have a very good sense when things are to OP for their own good.

[Ssalarn]

I'm not saying that we should give Incanters an archetype that grants them an equivalent amount of combat talents. I'm just saying that mid- and low-casters getting mid- to low-amounts of combat talents seems fair, seeing as they're supposed to be halfway between full casters and full martials.

Presumably, if we're doing things right giving an Incanter full combat talent progression still shouldn't break anything, because he's already a full caster and should have good options there that will suit him better, and because he's 1/2 BAB with no special advantages so all his saves and bonuses for combat talents should suck. I think the biggest "issue" would be that Incanters could stack up Athletic and other mobility sphere abilities to close whatever tiny gap remained keeping them from going full anime. Though if I'm being honest, the idea of an Incanter backflipping off an ogre so he can Movement Burst Iron Man style straight up and then nuke the battlefield from midair is really entertaining. Not necessarily any better than him just flying up and doing the same thing, but certainly more entertaining.

Magus and other gish types can probably leverage more out, but much of the premise of the system is that the options should sync nicely with existing options; so a Magus using SoP and SoM spheres should be operating within the same basic floor to ceiling space as an SoP only Magus who full attacks with Spell Combat.

[digiman619]

still this looks way to iffy even for me and i have a very good sense when things are to OP for their own good.

I get what you're saying, but answer me this: If I take alternating levels of Incanter and Conscript (the "build-a-martial" class, like the incanter is the "build a caster" class), assuming the talent distribution is the same (as I have no evidence it won't be), at 20th level I will have 17 magic talents (15 from class, 2 for being a spherecaster), 17 combat talents (15 from class, 2 for being a martial practitioner) +15 BAB and a CL of 15, 10 if I willfully choose to ignore the Advanced Magical Training feat. My saves might be funky depending on what the Conscripts saves are and whether or not I use Fractional bonuses, but that's not important; the important thing is how is that different that a Warpriest or Magus with a mid-practitioner's amount of talent?

[LordOfCain]

I think the biggest "issue" would be that Incanters could stack up Athletic and other mobility sphere abilities to close whatever tiny gap remained keeping them from going full anime.

What's wrong with anime? :smalltongue:

[Ssalarn]

What's wrong with anime? :smalltongue:

Absolutely nothing :smallbiggrin:

[N. Jolly]

What's wrong with anime? :smalltongue:

We all know you never go FULL anime.

[LordOfCain]

We all know you never go FULL anime.Do we know that?

[Lirya]

I am taking a closer look at the sample spheres, and while I really like the idea with many of the Athletics talents is seems incredibly expensive to gain the fun abilities.

For example, the ability to leap onto a flying dragon requires a minimum of the base sphere + 3 talents (leap package, climb package, scale foe, wall jumper). And Climb check vs. CMD has a large chance of failing due to how CMD scales unless you have magic items that boost Climb or Skill Focus. Most likely you will need to increase your base land speed and have the run package + wall running (for a running start) or unwilling boost + mighty leaper (for a standing jump). Also, how does run package + wall running + increased move speed not completely replace the normal uses of the climb skill?

As attacking during a move is inconvenient, attacking during a jump also becomes inconvenient. As a GM I would typically allow a person to perform a charge ending in a jump to attack a flying enemy and then falling after the attack is resolved, but I am not sure what the actual rules regarding that are in PF.

For comparison, getting Sphere Flight on a non-caster requires Basic Magic Training (Alteration or Telekinesis) + Advanced Magic Training + Extra Magic Talent (Avian Transformation (10th level) or Elemental Transformation for Alteration, or Flight + Powerful Telekinesis + 10th level for Telekinesis). Your "Jump Good" ability needs to be really good to match several minutes of flight multiple times per day.

I think perhaps it would be better if you moved some of the more minor and basic special abilities into the base sphere, and replaced the fake skill ranks with a +1/2 BAB bonus (to match the +1/2 level skill boost many PF classes gain in their specialty skill). If say the Swim package gave +1/2 BAB as a bonus to Swim checks + the Quick Gasp benefit + Focus lets you swim at the same speed as your base land speed, with further talents like Tide Reader and one that removes the attack penalties for underwater combat then that seems like a more acceptable cost in my mind.

Looking at the the Sniping sphere, the base sphere gives 3 different abilities which together turns Attack Action archery into a viable backup fighting style. It is worth noting that at 1st level, rolling twice for the attack roll and dealing 2d10 damage on a hit sounds like it is above the normal damage curve.

The talents look fun and thematic, but it still looks like a backup style for when you cannot enter the melee. I think a (snipe) talent that Entangles the opponent on a successful CMD check would be appropriate as shooting off buckles causing people to lose their pants is a sniper staple (at least in my mind), also pinning clothing to scenery and similar effects. Almost every computer game that features archery powers also seem to have one where you immobilize your enemy for some time.

I would also like a talent somewhere that adds an attribute to crossbow damage (or otherwise boosts crossbows specifically so they keep up with composite bows by spending 1 talent into it). That way a SoM class that only starts with simple weapons (but has the option of gaining composite bows with a talent) might choose to stay with crossbows. Even with sniping adding Strength modifier to damage gives a noticeable increase to DPR.

[Ssalarn]

Just popping into give my thoughts on some of your excellent feedback! The design team is currently discussing a lot of this, but I thought I'd chime in and share my thoughts on a few items-


I am taking a closer look at the sample spheres, and while I really like the idea with many of the Athletics talents is seems incredibly expensive to gain the fun abilities.

For example, the ability to leap onto a flying dragon requires a minimum of the base sphere + 3 talents (leap package, climb package, scale foe, wall jumper).


I don't find that assessment unfair, and we're chatting about how we can maybe alleviate that a bit.



And Climb check vs. CMD has a large chance of failing due to how CMD scales unless you have magic items that boost Climb or Skill Focus.

The biggest thing here is that there are so many ways to boost a skill, and with class skill bonuses acting like a 2 size category CMB increase, I don't see hitting CMD ever really being much of a problem, especially when things like tools and WBL are taken into account. We'll keep an eye on it though, and keep running the numbers.



Most likely you will need to increase your base land speed and have the run package + wall running (for a running start) or unwilling boost + mighty leaper (for a standing jump). Also, how does run package + wall running + increased move speed not completely replace the normal uses of the climb skill?

As attacking during a move is inconvenient, attacking during a jump also becomes inconvenient.

We're going to try and make that as untrue as possible, with really concise rules for exactly how jumping and attacking plays out so you don't have to make them up. This is being actively worked on.



As a GM I would typically allow a person to perform a charge ending in a jump to attack a flying enemy and then falling after the attack is resolved, but I am not sure what the actual rules regarding that are in PF.

For comparison, getting Sphere Flight on a non-caster requires Basic Magic Training (Alteration or Telekinesis) + Advanced Magic Training + Extra Magic Talent (Avian Transformation (10th level) or Elemental Transformation for Alteration, or Flight + Powerful Telekinesis + 10th level for Telekinesis). Your "Jump Good" ability needs to be really good to match several minutes of flight multiple times per day.

I think perhaps it would be better if you moved some of the more minor and basic special abilities into the base sphere, and replaced the fake skill ranks with a +1/2 BAB bonus (to match the +1/2 level skill boost many PF classes gain in their specialty skill). If say the Swim package gave +1/2 BAB as a bonus to Swim checks + the Quick Gasp benefit + Focus lets you swim at the same speed as your base land speed, with further talents like Tide Reader and one that removes the attack penalties for underwater combat then that seems like a more acceptable cost in my mind.


Not much to say here at the moment beyond noting that this is great feedback and we're discussing ways to address it.



Looking at the the Sniping sphere, the base sphere gives 3 different abilities which together turns Attack Action archery into a viable backup fighting style. It is worth noting that at 1st level, rolling twice for the attack roll and dealing 2d10 damage on a hit sounds like it is above the normal damage curve.

The talents look fun and thematic, but it still looks like a backup style for when you cannot enter the melee. I think a (snipe) talent that Entangles the opponent on a successful CMD check would be appropriate as shooting off buckles causing people to lose their pants is a sniper staple (at least in my mind), also pinning clothing to scenery and similar effects. Almost every computer game that features archery powers also seem to have one where you immobilize your enemy for some time.


I'm like 90% sure I added a snipe talent for entangling this morning. All offensive spheres go off the attack action building block, so there are numerous ways to kind of branch out how and when you improve damage. The preview only includes like 5 talents, I think? Each sphere in the full version has or will have about 20.



I would also like a talent somewhere that adds an attribute to crossbow damage (or otherwise boosts crossbows specifically so they keep up with composite bows by spending 1 talent into it). That way a SoM class that only starts with simple weapons (but has the option of gaining composite bows with a talent) might choose to stay with crossbows. Even with sniping adding Strength modifier to damage gives a noticeable increase to DPR.

Crossbows are actually naturally favored by the Sniping sphere, and that's very intentional. Because they have a higher base damage die and a broader critical threat range, the stacking damage dice and 2d20th formula mean they naturally keep pace with bows without needing any additional damage boosts. What they do need help with is reload speed, and there are talents for that in the Barrage and Equipment spheres, depending on what works best for each character.

[Milo v3]

We're going to try and make that as untrue as possible, with really concise rules for exactly how jumping and attacking plays out so you don't have to make them up. This is being actively worked on.
Why would jumping and attacking have different rules to any other form of movement and attacking?

[Ssalarn]

Why would jumping and attacking have different rules to any other form of movement and attacking?


The issue is with resolution; Paizo's core rules don't support doing stuff in mid-air very well, as generally the moment you stop moving, you start falling. So the time to make an attack there falls into a nebulous grey area, especially if you want to combine a jump with a completely separate attack that isn't naturally integrated into being used with jumps.

[Lirya]

The biggest thing here is that there are so many ways to boost a skill, and with class skill bonuses acting like a 2 size category CMB increase, I don't see hitting CMD ever really being much of a problem, especially when things like tools and WBL are taken into account. We'll keep an eye on it though, and keep running the numbers.

Using this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3)this as my source, a 10th level character needs to hit a CMD of 32 on average to succeed the climb check. With 10 ranks + 7 Str + 3 Class skill that requires a roll of 12+ or 45% chance of success. If you still have the opportunity to make an attack action if you fail the climb check and don't have to worry about both the AoO and falling damage, then maybe 45% can be considered acceptable. Most likely however, you need a cheap magic item, Skill Focus, or some other way to buff climb by about +5 (increasing your chance of success to 70%) before your hard purchased talents work reliably.


Crossbows are actually naturally favored by the Sniping sphere, and that's very intentional. Because they have a higher base damage die and a broader critical threat range, the stacking damage dice and 2d20th formula mean they naturally keep pace with bows without needing any additional damage boosts. What they do need help with is reload speed, and there are talents for that in the Barrage and Equipment spheres, depending on what works best for each character.

This depends upon the build. If you look at the average bonus damage per round from a critical hit then that actually favors the composite (crits with double rolls increase the DPR by +19.5% of base DPR that is multiplied with the bow/+38% with improved critical, and +19% or +36% with improved critical using a crossbow). As for the actual DPR of Sniping, I ran the numbers for 10 BAB with Dex 20, Str 16, +3 weapon, Vital Strike, Improved Critical, & Deadly Aim. And that is pretty much tied for damage vs. AC 24 (crossbow is slightly ahead without deadly aim, bow is slightly ahead with, and deadly aim is very much worth using). Higher strength obviously favors composite bows.

Still, it is close enough that I agree using crossbows for Sniping is worth it if you save a talent for something more useful. I really like that Deadly Aim + the base Sniping sphere is enough to give an acceptable ranged option for any Full BAB character.

[CalethosVB]

It is me or is the Armiger just a really easy dip class? 1 level gives you masterwork with all your weapons (who is going to need more than a couple anyway except for the Armiger when he gets Rapid Assault?), 5 free talents, +1 BAB, and Quick Draw. A second level gives you Techniques to start the Extra Technique train, plus a 6th talent.

After that, do whatever. Jump into Rogue or Ranger and flesh out your concept more.

I think you should get 1 Customized Weapon to start, a second at 5 when you gain Rapid Assault so you can take advantage of it, and 1 at each increment of Practiced Reflexes. Or at most 2 weapons at level 1 with the rest not coming until later.

This just seems powerful enough that any martial would be foolish not to take a level or two in just for the starting perks.

Overall the concept seems cool, very flavorful, and I can see it being a contender in DPR races against more well-known and used classes like Barbarians and Fighters. But it gives too much upfront in my opinion.

I could be wrong. I could be missing something. It's been known to happen too often. Someone explain to me why I'm seeing this from the wrong angle.

[stack]

The two bonus talents could be gained from dipping any of the classes or archetypes that use the system, so those should be considered separately from the dippability of the armiger.

The masterwork on three weapons if really nice at level 1, but becomes irrelevant quickly. The armiger treats them as masterwork; they are not actually MW for the purpose of enchantment and such. You also cannot benefit from the weapon's talents at the same time. Still useful, but not the same as flat out getting three talents.

Reducing the number of customized weapons would defeat the mechanical concept of the class, being able to switch your fighting style by changing weapons.

[CalethosVB]

Gotcha. Thanks.

[RedMop]

Using this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3)this as my source, a 10th level character needs to hit a CMD of 32 on average to succeed the climb check. With 10 ranks + 7 Str + 3 Class skill that requires a roll of 12+ or 45% chance of success. If you still have the opportunity to make an attack action if you fail the climb check and don't have to worry about both the AoO and falling damage, then maybe 45% can be considered acceptable. Most likely however, you need a cheap magic item, Skill Focus, or some other way to buff climb by about +5 (increasing your chance of success to 70%) before your hard purchased talents work reliably.

Be careful with that source. Many are way way wrong. The doc says Treant CMD is 67. d20srd says 29.

[Hunter Noventa]

Took a quick look at the Armiger and the spheres presented in the preview, got me excited, as well as hearing what's coming out in this thread. I'll be pledging when I get home from work most likely.

And if the Foot Sphere gives rapid-fire Chun-li kicks, it also needs to give an over-the-top Inazuma Kick.

[Lirya]

Be careful with that source. Many are way way wrong. The doc says Treant CMD is 67. d20srd says 29.

There does indeed seem to be some significant errors with some of the monsters. Are there any better sources for bestiary statistics? And do you think the errors are common enough and significant enough to make the mean/median/mode values give a false impression of what numbers a typical CR X monster has?

[Ssalarn]

Be careful with that source. Many are way way wrong. The doc says Treant CMD is 67. d20srd says 29.

It's definitely 29. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/treant.html#treant)

[CalethosVB]

One of the more out there but effective if it can be pulled off tactics I see and read about when I comes to sword fighting is that the smaller, generally disadvantaged guy, will get in close enough to the guy with the bigger sword, negating his reach advantage. In PFRPG, we can easily visualize this through reach weapon mechanics. If your enemy runs inside the area your reach weapon can't hit, then that weapon becomes useless. But also in PFRPG, there's not rules for the scenario I mentioned above, where a guy with a dagger and a plan invades the square of his opponent, negating the ability to effectively use that greatsword and putting that guy on the defensive. Even while grappling, both opponents are considered located in adjacent but separate squares, according to core combat rules.

Would there be any talents in SoM that may enable such a tactic, or perhaps plans or discussion of such?

[Doc_Maynot]

There does indeed seem to be some significant errors with some of the monsters. Are there any better sources for bestiary statistics? And do you think the errors are common enough and significant enough to make the mean/median/mode values give a false impression of what numbers a typical CR X monster has?

That one error out of the 186 CR8 entries changed the mean by .21. That kind of thing adds up.

[NomGarret]

Well presuming the other classes follow as closely to the SoP model in this regard, dipping any one of the classes will net you 3-5 talents off the bat. If this is a problem, it's systemwide and not unique to the armiger.

The three customized weapons are neat but will fall behind at higher levels without a sizable chunk of your WBL budget, which sticking in the class alleviates. Sure, you can hang onto that masterwork glaive your whole career, never attack with it and only pull it out when you need to swim really fast, but it doesn't strike me as OP dip material at that point.

[RedMop]

That one error out of the 186 CR8 entries changed the mean by .21. That kind of thing adds up.

There are many many errors in there. Several creatures in there have a 90-something CMD... at CR 3. it's not even close to the SRD.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Will we see a SoM equivalent of the Hedgewitch? I love the customizability of the class between picking two traditions, the various secrets for those traditions, and even being able to branch out into additional traditions if so desired. It fulfills the create-a-class fantasy much better than Incanter, as it has a breadth of much more interesting class features than a couple of boring features from cleric/sorcerer/wizard.

[khadgar567]

So any ideas about martial flaws like missing arm or being blind

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm currently working on build based on the alchemist class using poison more effectively than normal using this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F3oPjQ5wguNtE5H_EORqxeBTSpqQRYqZnSUzP-1dALE/edit) as a baseline, although I'm sacrificing some of it by changing some stuff to using an Atomie, which is used as a Stealth sniper. So I'm wondering, if SoM could offer some way to help this build out or even makes it worth to switch completely the class chassis. What I'm missing from the limited preview is a way to deal with the poison crafting/poison use (like DC increase), sneak attack damage and sneaky sniper stuff. The rest of the build is incidental. I'd understand if that is at least partially out of the scope of the project. :smallsmile:

Edit: Based on the Paizo thread, I'd say that some stuff is included already.

BTW, the other thread hasn't been merged yet.

[Eldaran]

So any ideas about martial flaws like missing arm or being blind

If there is such a thing, the bonuses should be minor. If you're at a point where maiming your character is beneficial, it's kinda dumb.

[A.J.Gibson]

I think drawbacks would be more like restrictions on what you can do while maintaining martial focus. Like in G.I.Joe the Movie (1985), Jinx can't use her ninja skills until she puts on a blindfold, because her teacher was blind and taught her to fight that way. Drawbacks to the character as a whole should be handled by the base system.

[A.J.Gibson]

I'm currently working on build based on the alchemist class using poison more effectively than normal using this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F3oPjQ5wguNtE5H_EORqxeBTSpqQRYqZnSUzP-1dALE/edit) as a baseline, although I'm sacrificing some of it by changing some stuff to using an Atomie, which is used as a Stealth sniper. So I'm wondering, if SoM could offer some way to help this build out or even makes it worth to switch completely the class chassis. What I'm missing from the limited preview is a way to deal with the poison crafting/poison use (like DC increase), sneak attack damage and sneaky sniper stuff. The rest of the build is incidental. I'd understand if that is at least partially out of the scope of the project. :smallsmile:

Edit: Based on the Paizo thread, I'd say that some stuff is included already.

BTW, the other thread hasn't been merged yet.

As I said to your during our chat, a poison sphere for SoM sounds great to me. Sneak attack options I'm not certain about, since they are already a class feature for rogues and slayers. For poison, the basic sphere could offer poison use and crafting bonuses, swift action poison applying, and maybe access to some *good* poisons.

[digiman619]

Well, assuming someone is willing to pitch in another $10, we're about toSeeing as we just hit the third stretch goal. I am officially asking that when you make Paizo class archetypes, you make one for the Brawler; DSP still doesn't have an official one and it's kinda annoying. I'd also want one for the Magus and Warpriest, but that's a SoP/SoM mix, so I understand you not wanting to do that right off the bat.

[Coretron03]

So any ideas about martial flaws like missing arm or being blind

The closet I can see in official aterial in missing limbs is Peg legs which at the cost of a trait you can remove its penalties and even gain a nifty +1 on fortitude saves. Although its a skuls and shackles trait it effectively the same as a +1 fort save trait other then the flavour and shark hate.
Link http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/skull-shackles/peg-leg.

[Kaidinah]

Kickstarter is at $15000! Dont have to make hard choices anymore!

[EldritchWeaver]

As I said to your during our chat, a poison sphere for SoM sounds great to me. Sneak attack options I'm not certain about, since they are already a class feature for rogues and slayers. For poison, the basic sphere could offer poison use and crafting bonuses, swift action poison applying, and maybe access to some *good* poisons.

Thinking about more, the reason for sneak attack is for the original poisoner build to be able to trade the damage dice to increase the poison DC. As long there is some way to have a reasonable DC, I suppose not having sneak attack is OK. The other important points of the poisoner build are having a way to speed up poison crafting, if you want to craft the 1PP ones (otherwise it takes far too long to do it yourself) and being able to apply poison to even naturally immune beings (although limited to certain subtypes). Immunity to poison is nice to have, but can be acquired via magic items in the worst case. I'm aware that this is an quite extensive wishlist, so not being able to replicate it completely would be ok, if the hypothetical SoM build still follows the spirit of my adaptation.

[Prime32]

I am officially asking that when you make Paizo class archetypes, you make one for the Brawler; DSP still doesn't have an official one and it's kinda annoying.They do, though? (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#bookmark=kix.5kj5iikmpsq5)

[digiman619]

They do, though? (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#bookmark=kix.5kj5iikmpsq5)

You kinda missed a key word, I'll highlight it for you.

I am officially asking that when you make Paizo class archetypes, you make one for the Brawler; DSP still doesn't have an official one and it's kinda annoying.
Yes, I know about the contender. Yes, it's awesome. It also never got out of playtesting, the public face of the project left DSP to start their own company, and we've not heard a peep about it from DSP for months now.

So that don't really count as "official", does it?

I don't mean to be snippy, but I've been meaning to play one for a while, but my GM won't allow playtest material, so it's a sore point.

EDIT: But that's not important right now. Seeing as SoP's kickstarter got almost 40K, I quiver in anticipation of what further stretch goals might be if we get near that.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Kickstarter is at $15000! Dont have to make hard choices anymore!

I never actually offered my opinion on it, but I'm glad to hear the better option was the one chosen by the rest of the community. Come on, if this can get funded in a day, we can get $26k!

[Lord_Gareth]

You kinda missed a key word, I'll highlight it for you.

Yes, I know about the contender. Yes, it's awesome. It also never got out of playtesting, the public face of the project left DSP to start his own company, and we've not heard a peep about it from DSP for months now.

So that don't really count as "official", does it?

Emphasis mine.

Forrest started her own company but has not left DSP; she's still a vital and valued part of the team. Fool's Errand and Contender are still very much on the slate to be published and nothing about their circumstances has particularly changed.

[LordOfCain]

Emphasis mine.

Forrest started her own company but has not left DSP; she's still a vital and valued part of the team. Fool's Errand and Contender are still very much on the slate to be published and nothing about their circumstances has particularly changed.

That's good! Personally, I hadn't checked on that in a while and thought it already had been published. :smallfrown:

[digiman619]

Emphasis mine.

Forrest started her own company but has not left DSP; she's still a vital and valued part of the team. Fool's Errand and Contender are still very much on the slate to be published and nothing about their circumstances has particularly changed.

Hey, this qualifies as a peep, so I'm glad that it's not dead,.. just hibernating.

[digiman619]

Second preview is up! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pyLq03W2ju58PcKOUq5YXoFowf_weBNzuWtjCMdINXk/edit#heading=h.y11leawaj4ga) Will give my thoughts after I read it.

[Ssalarn]

Second preview is up! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pyLq03W2ju58PcKOUq5YXoFowf_weBNzuWtjCMdINXk/edit#heading=h.y11leawaj4ga) Will give my thoughts after I read it.


Beat us to it!

[digiman619]

Beat us to it!

I just so happened to check in at the right time. It's not like I was keeping a constant eye for updates or anything... *squirms uncomfortably*

[LordOfCain]

Second preview is up! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pyLq03W2ju58PcKOUq5YXoFowf_weBNzuWtjCMdINXk/edit#heading=h.y11leawaj4ga) Will give my thoughts after I read it.

Yay! Another preview!

[khadgar567]

Open palm, boxing and atletics look sweet and i realy dig black smith but i wish i can subsitude hammers with unarmed strike

[Ssalarn]

Open palm, boxing and atletics look sweet and i realy dig black smith but i wish i can subsitude hammers with unarmed strike

I think there's only a couple blacksmith abilities that are currently specifically tied to hammers, and I'd been contemplating changing that to "bludgeoning weapons". The nice part is, you get free unarmed proficiency with unarmed spheres, so you can still make a Blacksmith who swings a warhammer around with one hand and punches fools out with the other. Hmmm..... Boxing and Dual Wielding could be a fun way to build a Blacksmith. Gonna scribble that down for my playtest notes.

[mrguymiah]

Honestly, I'd really love to see a sphere related to the sword and board type of build. It was really disappointing to be told that it's untenable (in favor of 2d6+size increase+powerattack+cleave, etc, etc greatsword builds) when I started playing Pathfinder and would love to see a more epic version.

[Ssalarn]

Honestly, I'd really love to see a sphere related to the sword and board type of build. It was really disappointing to be told that it's untenable (in favor of 2d6+size increase+powerattack+cleave, etc, etc greatsword builds) when I started playing Pathfinder and would love to see a more epic version.

The Shield sphere is still in a development phase, but I think you're going to really dig sword and board once we release it. There's a bunch of cool and iconic tricks available there.

[digiman619]

Open palm, boxing and atletics look sweet and i realy dig black smith but i wish i can subsitude hammers with unarmed strike

Well, unarmed strikes are simple weapons, so he is proficient with them and if he has an unarmed sphere talent (boxing & open hand as far as we've seen) he gets Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, so there's nothing stopping you from using your fists...

[Hunter Noventa]

Blacksmith and Striker both look great. Seriously, Striker is awesome, the Tension mechanic makes me happy. Though I feel like there needs to be some kind of passive bonus for having Tension, perhaps as a technique. And it does have the usual Monk MADness that should be addressed. It already needs 4 stats to be effective.

[Lirya]

I tried my hand at building a 10th level Striker using the elite array. If I understand how this works correctly then Launching Counter is currently a beast of a talent. I am also assuming Extra Combat Talent is a feat that exists and grants 1 extra combat talent.


------------------
The Boxer
------------------
Human Striker 10
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Perception +20
------------------
Defense
------------------
AC 22, Touch 16, Flat-Footed 19 (+3 Dex, +2 Wis, +6 Armor, +1 Deflection)
Hp 99/99 (10d10+40)
Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +8
Gain a +3 Shield bonus to AC when using the attack action to attack, or full attack, or take a total defensive action.
(/3 per round) Expend AoO to gain +3 Dodge to AC vs. a single attack. If the enemy misses make AoO.
------------------
Offense
------------------
Speed 45 ft. (Run Action: 225 ft.)

Unarmed Strike +18/+13 (2d6+12, 16-20/x2)
Attack Action +18 (4d6+12, 16-20/2d6+12)
Counter Punch +20 (4d6+14, 16-20/2d6+14)

Killer Combo: 2 Tension for Attack/Damage + Set Up Strike + Counter Punch &
Launching Counter + 2 Tension for Extra Attack + AoO from falling enemy
DPR vs. AC 24: 102.1

AoO: /4 per turn.
Martial Focus (Yes): Boxing
Tension (/3): Gain 2 when rolling Initiative, gain 1 at the start of each turn (2 if you start your turn with 0 tension), gain 1 whenever you deal damage with an unarmed strike, gain 1 when you take damage from a ranged or melee attack, gain 1 whenever you ready an action to make a counter punch, gain 1 whenever you confirm a critical hit.
1 Tension Techniques
* +1 circumstance bonus to attack and damage rolls per tension spent.
* Gain DR 1/- per tension spent.
* +1 circumstance bonus to AC per tension spent.
* +1 circumstance bonus to CMB per tension spent.
* Swift Action to cause all movement to not provoke AoO
2 Tension Techniques
* Swift Action to regain martial focus.
* +1 circumstance bonus to all saving throws.
* Increase the critical threat range by 1, after all other effects.
* Whenever you make an attack action, spend a Swift Action to make an additional unarmed attack at -2 penalty.
* Whenever you make an AoO or Counter Punch, make an additional unarmed strike at a -2 penalty.
3 Tension Techniques
* Automatically confirm a critical threat.
* Swift Action to move up to your speed.
------------------
Statistics
------------------
Str 20 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 31
Feats: Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike], Combat Reflexes, Extra Combat Talent x2,
Vital Strike, Improved Critical [Unarmed]
Skills: Acrobatics [10] +13 (+17 to Jump), Climb [10] +23, Heal [1] +6,
Intimidate [4] +6, Knowledge (Nature)[1] +4, Perception [10] +20, Ride [1] +7,
Sense Motive [10] +15, Sleight of Hand [1] +7, Stealth [10] +16,
Survival [1] +6, Swim [1] +9
Striker Talents: Exploited Opening x2, High Tension
Favored Class Bonus: +1 Hp/level x10
------------------
Spheres of Might
------------------
Athletics Sphere [Climb, Run]
Expanded Training, Scale Foe, Swift Movement, Wall Runner

Boxing Sphere
Advanced Set Up, Defensive Boxing, Launching Counter, Set Up Strike,
Shoulder Roll, Surprise Counter

Open Hand Sphere
Deadly Hand, Piercing Pound
------------------
Equipment
------------------
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Belt of Physical Perfection
+2 Headband of Inspired Wisdom
+1 Ring of Protection
Ring of Climbing
Eyes of the Eagle
Handy Haversack

2 900 gp

[Ssalarn]

I tried my hand at building a 10th level Striker using the elite array. If I understand how this works correctly then Launching Counter is currently a beast of a talent. I am also assuming Extra Combat Talent is a feat that exists and grants 1 extra combat talent.


------------------
The Boxer
------------------
Human Striker 10
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Perception +20
------------------
Defense
------------------
AC 22, Touch 16, Flat-Footed 19 (+3 Dex, +2 Wis, +6 Armor, +1 Deflection)
Hp 99/99 (10d10+40)
Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +8
Gain a +3 Shield bonus to AC when using the attack action to attack, or full attack, or take a total defensive action.
(/3 per round) Expend AoO to gain +3 Dodge to AC vs. a single attack. If the enemy misses make AoO.
------------------
Offense
------------------
Speed 45 ft. (Run Action: 225 ft.)

Unarmed Strike +18/+13 (2d6+12, 16-20/x2)
Attack Action +18 (4d6+12, 16-20/2d6+12)
Counter Punch +20 (4d6+14, 16-20/2d6+14)

Killer Combo: 2 Tension for Attack/Damage + Set Up Strike + Counter Punch &
Launching Counter + 2 Tension for Extra Attack + AoO from falling enemy
DPR vs. AC 24: 102.1

AoO: /4 per turn.
Martial Focus (Yes): Boxing
Tension (/3): Gain 2 when rolling Initiative, gain 1 at the start of each turn (2 if you start your turn with 0 tension), gain 1 whenever you deal damage with an unarmed strike, gain 1 when you take damage from a ranged or melee attack, gain 1 whenever you ready an action to make a counter punch, gain 1 whenever you confirm a critical hit.
1 Tension Techniques
* +1 circumstance bonus to attack and damage rolls per tension spent.
* Gain DR 1/- per tension spent.
* +1 circumstance bonus to AC per tension spent.
* +1 circumstance bonus to CMB per tension spent.
* Swift Action to cause all movement to not provoke AoO
2 Tension Techniques
* Swift Action to regain martial focus.
* +1 circumstance bonus to all saving throws.
* Increase the critical threat range by 1, after all other effects.
* Whenever you make an attack action, spend a Swift Action to make an additional unarmed attack at -2 penalty.
* Whenever you make an AoO or Counter Punch, make an additional unarmed strike at a -2 penalty.
3 Tension Techniques
* Automatically confirm a critical threat.
* Swift Action to move up to your speed.
------------------
Statistics
------------------
Str 20 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +15; CMD 31
Feats: Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike], Combat Reflexes, Extra Combat Talent x2,
Vital Strike, Improved Critical [Unarmed]
Skills: Acrobatics [10] +13 (+17 to Jump), Climb [10] +23, Heal [1] +6,
Intimidate [4] +6, Knowledge (Nature)[1] +4, Perception [10] +20, Ride [1] +7,
Sense Motive [10] +15, Sleight of Hand [1] +7, Stealth [10] +16,
Survival [1] +6, Swim [1] +9
Striker Talents: Exploited Opening x2, High Tension
Favored Class Bonus: +1 Hp/level x10
------------------
Spheres of Might
------------------
Athletics Sphere [Climb, Run]
Expanded Training, Scale Foe, Swift Movement, Wall Runner

Boxing Sphere
Advanced Set Up, Defensive Boxing, Launching Counter, Set Up Strike,
Shoulder Roll, Surprise Counter

Open Hand Sphere
Deadly Hand, Piercing Pound
------------------
Equipment
------------------
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Belt of Physical Perfection
+2 Headband of Inspired Wisdom
+1 Ring of Protection
Ring of Climbing
Eyes of the Eagle
Handy Haversack

2 900 gp

Nice build! And yes, Extra Combat Talent is a feat, and it grants you 1 additional talent.

[khadgar567]

Nice build! And yes, Extra Combat Talent is a feat, and it grants you 1 additional talent.
can sphere mages take the extra Combat talent to lets say grab athletics sphere wall run talent.

[Lirya]

can sphere mages take the extra Combat talent to lets say grab athletics sphere wall run talent.

From what the preview has to say about Combat Training for Non-Spheres of Might Classes, you would have to take the Basic Combat Training feat first. But yes, that looks very possible.

[Ssalarn]

can sphere mages take the extra Combat talent to lets say grab athletics sphere wall run talent.

Currently, Combat Spheres and Magic Spheres are two different things. However, a spherecaster could take the Basic Combat Training feat to grab a combat sphere and an associated talent, like Athletics and Wall Run.
Or they could trade out some of their feats by level for a combat talent progression as outlined in the preview doc.

[ComaVision]

The Shield sphere is still in a development phase, but I think you're going to really dig sword and board once we release it. There's a bunch of cool and iconic tricks available there.

Will there be a preview of Shield before the Kickstarter ends?

[khadgar567]

Currently, Combat Spheres and Magic Spheres are two different things. However, a spherecaster could take the Basic Combat Training feat to grab a combat sphere and an associated talent, like Athletics and Wall Run.
Or they could trade out some of their feats by level for a combat talent progression as outlined in the preview doc.
lets say you are working on a class and it uses both magic and combat talents in equal power and its full caster how you word his initating / magic abilities.

[Ssalarn]

Will there be a preview of Shield before the Kickstarter ends?

Most likely.


lets say you are working on a class and it uses both magic and combat talents in equal power and its full caster how you word his initating / magic abilities.

I'm... Not sure what you're asking here.

[NomGarret]

It'd be nice to resolve the MAD issues of the Striker without locking it into one or two stat spreads. I think basing tension and AC bonus off CON might be a better way to get there. It's already a needed stat, and it takes some pressure off having that high a WIS. That said, I would keep the talents that are based off WIS the way they are, as it gives different builds different looks.

[Troacctid]

Would it be possible for the Striker to choose her key ability modifier, like some of the Sphere casters do?

[Ssalarn]

It'd be nice to resolve the MAD issues of the Striker without locking it into one or two stat spreads. I think basing tension and AC bonus off CON might be a better way to get there. It's already a needed stat, and it takes some pressure off having that high a WIS. That said, I would keep the talents that are based off WIS the way they are, as it gives different builds different looks.

One of the things we've been chatting about as a team is finding more ways to encourage and support stat diversification instead of feeding into the idea that every class has to be as SAD as possible if it's going to function. I can't speak to what, if any, changes that might mean for the Striker at this time, but it's definitely a discussion that is being had.



Would it be possible for the Striker to choose her key ability modifier, like some of the Sphere casters do?

I can't speak to the Striker specifically, but I think we're generally trying to avoid "pick any stat" or "pick one of these three stats" mechanics this time around. One of the things we've discussed is adding more mechanics like some of the Vigilante talents in Ultimate Intrigue, where you have options like "Add X to damage when using Dex to hit and Str for damage", or similar ideas that reward a character for being well-rounded instead of turning more stats into dump stats.

[Hunter Noventa]

SAD vs. MAD stuff

The issue people are getting at is that before class abilities, martials need 2 to 3 stats at the very least decent in order to function. Adding anything that keys off of a mental stat only makes that worse. The Strike has it pretty bad in that they need Str to hit and deal damage, Dex to not die since they only have Light Armor, Con for HP, and then Wisdom to use the vast majority of their class abilities. needing decent scores in all those stats highlights an issue with the whole d20PF system since it makes certain classes only competent in certain playstyles.

I think someone pointed out in the google doc that the class can't function at all at 15-point buy level. I don't know how many people play there, but despite its cool features, the Striker will be avoided for most of the same reasons as Monk.

You can encourage a wider stat spread all you want. But If people can't actually get those stats, they aren't going to play the class.

[Troacctid]

Personally, my pet peeve that I wish you'd avoid instead is the "Every 2 levels, pick one of these options from this long list of options" mechanic. It adds so much complexity while also being so redundant with what the subsystem is already doing. I don't like that the Blacksmith and Striker are buying into this same paradigm yet again. I'd much rather have a fixed progression where you get progressively stronger abilities at higher levels, rather than a variable progression where you're choosing from the same list at level 20 that you chose from at level 2.

[Ssalarn]

The issue people are getting at is that before class abilities, martials need 2 to 3 stats at the very least decent in order to function. Adding anything that keys off of a mental stat only makes that worse. The Strike has it pretty bad in that they need Str to hit and deal damage, Dex to not die since they only have Light Armor, Con for HP, and then Wisdom to use the vast majority of their class abilities. needing decent scores in all those stats highlights an issue with the whole d20PF system since it makes certain classes only competent in certain playstyles.

I think someone pointed out in the google doc that the class can't function at all at 15-point buy level. I don't know how many people play there, but despite its cool features, the Striker will be avoided for most of the same reasons as Monk.

You can encourage a wider stat spread all you want. But If people can't actually get those stats, they aren't going to play the class.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, it's more that we're looking at potentially different solutions; rather than not using a mental stat, for example, I'd be more inclined to let that mental stat have greater influence over martial abilities rather than having it completely replace a physical stat (or vice versa). I do think we can possibly make some tweaks to the Striker if they're really needed, but I'd rather those tweaks make a 14 Str and a 14 Wis viable rather than encouraging you to forego one or the other in favor of a 16 in a single stat.

[Lirya]

The Striker build i posted earlier uses the elite array (PB 15), and the only real problem that build has is that AC is too low unless you either made an unarmed attack, performed total defense, or spend an AoO for the dodge bonus (and since you are likely to do that most of the time, it is probably fine). Also, we know that there will be easily accessible options for getting Medium/Heavy armor in the Equipment Sphere, and the only thing the Striker loses (that I am aware of) while wearing heavy armor is Wis to AC making that fix perfectly viable.

As for the Wis based class features, the way I see it Tension is a small pool that you want to spend from as soon as it recharges. I would need to see it in play to know for sure, but I doubt increasing maximum Tension beyond 4 would matter much at all.


One of the things we've discussed is adding more mechanics like some of the Vigilante talents in Ultimate Intrigue, where you have options like "Add X to damage when using Dex to hit and Str for damage", or similar ideas that reward a character for being well-rounded instead of turning more stats into dump stats.

I would love some rewards for going with Dex to hit and Str for damage builds.

[N. Jolly]

Blacksmith and Striker both look great. Seriously, Striker is awesome, the Tension mechanic makes me happy. Though I feel like there needs to be some kind of passive bonus for having Tension, perhaps as a technique. And it does have the usual Monk MADness that should be addressed. It already needs 4 stats to be effective.

Originally the striker did have some passive tension mechanics, but the issue is that the class kind of wants you to burn a lot of tension per turn, especially with Rising Tension. Giving it passive stuff will involve numbers switching far too quickly, which is an issue.

As for MADness, that is a slight issue, but you could really sub out putting points in Dex for Wis and end up with similar benefits. We are talking about possibly bumping it up to a d12 to help with con, but I'd say you could pretty easily run this with 3 stats as opposed to 4, focusing on either str/con/wis or dex/con/wis with weapon finesse and such.


It'd be nice to resolve the MAD issues of the Striker without locking it into one or two stat spreads. I think basing tension and AC bonus off CON might be a better way to get there. It's already a needed stat, and it takes some pressure off having that high a WIS. That said, I would keep the talents that are based off WIS the way they are, as it gives different builds different looks.

I'm not opposed to basing tension on Con myself, that's not a terrible idea. If we did that, I'd probably swap the Wis talents to Con though to keep things uniform.


Would it be possible for the Striker to choose her key ability modifier, like some of the Sphere casters do?

Hm, I'll consider this, as it wouldn't be a bad idea.


Personally, my pet peeve that I wish you'd avoid instead is the "Every 2 levels, pick one of these options from this long list of options" mechanic. It adds so much complexity while also being so redundant with what the subsystem is already doing. I don't like that the Blacksmith and Striker are buying into this same paradigm yet again. I'd much rather have a fixed progression where you get progressively stronger abilities at higher levels, rather than a variable progression where you're choosing from the same list at level 20 that you chose from at level 2.

I can say that we're not doing this for every class, the Champion (still unshown) isn't a talent list class.

[Mehangel]

The issue people are getting at is that before class abilities, martials need 2 to 3 stats at the very least decent in order to function. Adding anything that keys off of a mental stat only makes that worse. The Strike has it pretty bad in that they need Str to hit and deal damage, Dex to not die since they only have Light Armor, Con for HP, and then Wisdom to use the vast majority of their class abilities. needing decent scores in all those stats highlights an issue with the whole d20PF system since it makes certain classes only competent in certain playstyles.

I think someone pointed out in the google doc that the class can't function at all at 15-point buy level. I don't know how many people play there, but despite its cool features, the Striker will be avoided for most of the same reasons as Monk.

You can encourage a wider stat spread all you want. But If people can't actually get those stats, they aren't going to play the class.

I have to agree with Hunter Noventa here, I understand why some people dislike SAD characters, but if I have to invest heavily in 4 ability scores, I stay away from it like the plague. If I have to invest in 3 ability scores I avoid it, especially in a 15-point buy game. Investing in 2 ability scores I dont mind and easily accept, even in 15-point buy games, it may not be entirely SAD, but it means that I dont have to spend most of my wealth purchasing Belts of Physical Perfection, or the headband equivalent.

[Troacctid]

I can say that we're not doing this for every class, the Champion (still unshown) isn't a talent list class.
That's the thing, though. This is Spheres of Might. Every class is a talent list class. Why does the Blacksmith need to also have a completely new and separate list of additional talents on top of the Spheres? Is it not complex and customizable enough already? Is it just not possible to integrate the additional options into the existing subsystem, so that there has to be a whole new sub-subsystem for them?

[Ssalarn]

That's the thing, though. This is Spheres of Might. Every class is a talent list class. Why does the Blacksmith need to also have a completely new and separate list of additional talents on top of the Spheres? Is it not complex and customizable enough already? Is it just not possible to integrate the additional options into the existing subsystem, so that there has to be a whole new sub-subsystem for them?

A lot of the Blacksmith talents aren't things that fit neatly into a sphere. They also let your character grow and spread in different ways, while also making the class archetype friendly. That's one of the major issues with "package" class features like Channel Energy, Domains, Arcane Schools, etc., is that they drastically limit what can be done with the class later. That's a big part of why classes like the Cleric and Wizard still have so few archetypes to this day- there's nothing to sub in, so their spell selections serve as the bulk of their "archetypes". We also made a big effort to make sure that the classes with selectable class features had options that scaled appropriately and/or integrated well with the combat system so they're useful at any level they come online. We've got a broad selection of classes, some that use every other level selectables, some that use packages, and some that have a combination of both. The goal with any class is to give players the ability to play the character they want while remaining as true to that vision in their head as possible. Selectables work particularly well that; is your Blacksmith a big smash it shards beefcake, a cunning crafter, a member of a medieval engineering corps? You've got the option to customize towards that.

In addition to all that, Smithing Insights are almost universally stronger than the average talent and work regardless of whether you have or expend your martial focus. They're an option you don't have to play the focus balancing act with. By giving them this way, I can shove in goodies that are equivalent to a class feature but stronger than what most talents should be giving. Obviously everything is still in development and there's some tinkering to be done on both sides there, but at the end of this, if your class features are only as good as a talent, we screwed up.

[N. Jolly]

Hey, what up all? The SoM AMA is started over on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/5os1v0/spheres_of_might_kickstarter_announcement_and_qa/), so go check it out!

[Troacctid]

A lot of the Blacksmith talents aren't things that fit neatly into a sphere. They also let your character grow and spread in different ways, while also making the class archetype friendly. That's one of the major issues with "package" class features like Channel Energy, Domains, Arcane Schools, etc., is that they drastically limit what can be done with the class later. That's a big part of why classes like the Cleric and Wizard still have so few archetypes to this day- there's nothing to sub in, so their spell selections serve as the bulk of their "archetypes". We also made a big effort to make sure that the classes with selectable class features had options that scaled appropriately and/or integrated well with the combat system so they're useful at any level they come online. We've got a broad selection of classes, some that use every other level selectables, some that use packages, and some that have a combination of both. The goal with any class is to give players the ability to play the character they want while remaining as true to that vision in their head as possible. Selectables work particularly well that; is your Blacksmith a big smash it shards beefcake, a cunning crafter, a member of a medieval engineering corps? You've got the option to customize towards that.
I wasn't thinking of a package like Arcane Schools. I was thinking more of a fixed progression of class features along the lines of Bardic Music. Bards don't have to select their music abilities off of a long list of options—they just get a built-in progression of songs. And then you can have more exciting high-level abilities thanks to level-gating, and there is plenty of room for archetypes, and the class is overall much easier to evaluate and grok.

The system is already flooded with options. Layering customizations on top of customizations on top of customizations makes it so much less accessible. I don't want to have to design my own class from the ground up. I don't want to have to consult three different handbooks to figure out which menu items I should be taking. Alternatives are one thing, but there should be a default too. That customizability, that's why we have archetypes, which do a much better job of the same thing IMO.

[stack]

Each menu option is like a micro- archetype. They allow significant customization and open up the ability to include niche stuff that would otherwise be left out, useless to half the builds, or forced into a feat. I think menu options are one of the best design trends to come along in PF. A magus can change spells every day and gets menu options, I haven't seen that as a major issue.

[Sky]

I have some feedback on the second preview.


I don’t like the name “practitioner”. Some ideas: Master (rhymes with caster), Combatant (unfortunately I think might already be used in the rules somewhere), Warrior, and Battler
For the different levels, why not just go with High, Medium, and Low? Easy to understand and works just like SoP.



Lots of people have mentioned this sphere is a big talent drain and the design team has said they’re working on that. One suggestion I have in particular for the Leap basic package is to be able to add both your Strength and Dexterity modifiers to Acrobatics checks made to jump. This would help both STR and DEX builds without breaking too much, since that’s at most a few more feet they can jump. As it is, a DEX-focused character has to spend a talent on the basic package for no benefit, which doesn’t seem right.
Rope Swinger- I love this talent. Lots of fun and useful tactically. However, there should probably be a limit on how far you can move based on the height of the rope. Attaching a rope to a 10-foot ceiling doesn’t let you swing nearly as far as if you attached it to the top of an 80-foot mast. I would suggest this talent lets you designate a circle with a radius equal to the height you’re swinging from and move anywhere in that circle as a move action.
This is more of a problem with the Swim skill than anything else, but the Swim package and talents are very “all-or-nothing”. They are really useful in water, but don’t do much of anything on land. Not sure what can be done about this, though.



This is a very mechanics-heavy sphere. Lots of changing initiative order, borrowing actions against your next round, and readied actions. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not a sphere I would recommend to new players or GMs.



This sphere seems designed like something you dedicate a whole build around, much like the Conjuration or Healing Spheres from SoP. Is this intentional?




I like being able to TWF with a two-handed weapon or a shield. Makes mixed builds more viable.
I like adding the options for tripping, disarming, sundering, etc, as well as dealing different kinds of damage. Really makes it more viable and versatile to have an unarmed-only build.
I would like to see something that lets you avoid monster abilities that deal damage characters using unarmed strikes (quills, heat, etc.) It’s frustrating to be neutered like that.



I’d like to see support for Unarmed and Natural Attack builds, as well as ammunition. Something I would especially like to see addressed is shuriken. As it stands, you can customize them, since they are thrown weapons, but they are destroyed on impact, like ammunition. One possibility for ammunition is to let you customize 50 pieces, like enchanting. I could see customized arrows having Sniping techniques added to them, or being used as crampons for Athletics Climbing package abilities. The only issue is the whole “wielding” requirement gets a little wonky.



I really love the vibe of this class. It’s cool, it’s iconic, and I really want to play one. However, it has some serious limitations as currently written.

Issue 1: One-trick pony. The main schtick of this class is Thunderous Blows. Much like a rogue, it’s your main class feature. The problem is that, even more so than a rogue, you only get this bonus against certain enemies. Aberrations, Animals, Dragons, Fey, Magical Beasts, Outsiders, Plants, and Vermin are most likely not going to be wearing armor. In addition, Thunderous Blows don’t help against magic-users, monks, or others who do not wear armor, or who use items like bracers of armor to get armor bonuses without all of the clanky metal.
Issue 2: Sundering your loot. Unlike a rogue’s sneak attack, you have to break your opponent’s armor to get your bonus damage. While you do have options to fix it back up again, it still feels a bit wrong to have to take 8 hours per piece of enchanted loot to undo your main combat focus. (As an aside, I think Quick Fix should be an automatic class feature, not a Smithing Insight. You shouldn’t have the opportunity cost of passing on better in-combat options just so you don’t have to spend money fixing what you’ve broken.)
Issue 3: Lackluster maintenance. Preparing these ahead of time really drags this down, as does the limit of only one for the whole party. The flying spellcaster doesn’t really need extra weapon damage or the ability to ignore difficult terrain, but would appreciate an armor bonus from her robes. The mounted fighter doesn’t need better armor, but his mount really needs to be able to charge. I would suggest letting the blacksmith mix-and-match among these, as well as adding a Smithing Insight that lets you change a maintenance option in a minute; not suitable for in-combat use, but it doesn’t mean calling a halt for the day when you see the passageway is full of rubble.
Issue 4: Crafting pains. Yes, you get a bonus to crafting, but the problem is Craft is actually many different skills. You need Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), and Craft(Bows) to do your smithing, which is a lot of skill points when you only have 4 + Int

I really like the creation and modification side of the blacksmith concept, but I don’t see it represented here much. I have some suggestions for fleshing out the creating side of the class a little more.

Suggestion #1: Options for non-armored foes.
A Smithing Insight that lets you reduce a creature’s natural armor. (by ½ your Blacksmith Level for one minute could work)
A Smithing Insight that lets you apply your Thunderous Blows against force effects, like a wall of force or bracers of armor.
Applying your Thunderous Blows on checks to open stuck doors. (You could use Thunderous Blows to break the doors, but sometimes you just want to open them.)
A Smithing Insight that lets you use your Thunderous Blows to smash traps. (Sunder in place of Disable Device, perhaps?)
Bonuses to hit and/or damage when using weapons and armor you have made yourself. (or, like the Armiger Technique Shift Training, apply weapon-specific feats to anything you have created yourself)

Suggestion #2: Smithing improvements.
Gain the Master Craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Wondrous Item feats as bonus feats as you progress through the class. Ignore spell/sphere requirements by increasing the Craft DC.
Something similar to the Alchemist class features Swift Alchemy and Instant Alchemy, to produce weapons and armor quickly. (Got swallowed without a dagger to cut your way out? Just make one!)
A Smithing Insight that lets you create alloys, making weapons and armor that count as two special materials.
A Smithing Insight (or several) that let you add (Ex) versions of some enchantments to armor and weapons (Balanced, bashing, clangerous, fortification, impervious, reflecting, adaptive, countering, deadly, distance, impact, impervious, keen, menacing, nimble shot, throwing, and wounding are all good possibilities)
A Smithing Insight that lets you add weapon qualities to weapons that do not normally have them (brace, disarm, distracting, trip, etc.)
Consolidating the various Craft skills down to one, or otherwise alleviating the need to put so many skill points into different Craft skills (treat your blacksmith level as ranks in Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), and Craft(Bows)?)



This is a very fiddly class with lots of abilities that boil down to “spend resource to get +X to Y”. I don’t see a lot of connection between the abilities, and there's not a lot there, flavor-wise. I’m not sure what role this class is intended to fulfill, in mechanics or in fluff. I just don’t think I “get it”, if you understand what I mean. Can someone explain how it all ties together? There’s a Wisdom dependency and you get Boxing for free…. Is this a monk-like class? Is it like the Shifter or Eliciter in SoP, where it’s a whole class built around a sphere? I’m very confused about the inspiration and design goals for this class.

[NomGarret]

Suggestion #2: Smithing improvements.
Gain the Master Craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Wondrous Item feats as bonus feats as you progress through the class. Ignore spell/sphere requirements by increasing the Craft DC.
Something similar to the Alchemist class features Swift Alchemy and Instant Alchemy, to produce weapons and armor quickly. (Got swallowed without a dagger to cut your way out? Just make one!)
A Smithing Insight that lets you create alloys, making weapons and armor that count as two special materials.
A Smithing Insight (or several) that let you add (Ex) versions of some enchantments to armor and weapons (Balanced, bashing, clangerous, fortification, impervious, reflecting, adaptive, countering, deadly, distance, impact, impervious, keen, menacing, nimble shot, throwing, and wounding are all good possibilities)
A Smithing Insight that lets you add weapon qualities to weapons that do not normally have them (brace, disarm, distracting, trip, etc.)
Consolidating the various Craft skills down to one, or otherwise alleviating the need to put so many skill points into different Craft skills (treat your blacksmith level as ranks in Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), and Craft(Bows)?)


What about something akin to Versatile Performance for Crafting?

[Sky]

What about something akin to Versatile Performance for Crafting?

That could work. The problem remains, however, that the Blacksmith isn't playing with as many skill points as a Bard is. My thought was maybe having Craft(Blacksmithing) cover Craft(weapons), Craft(armor), and Craft(bows). That cuts down on the level of investment needed to be effective.

[Lirya]

What about something akin to Versatile Performance for Crafting?

This has to happen.

Apart from that, I hope there will be support for mid-high level characters using awesome mounts like a Pegasus, Griffon, Giant Eagle, Wyvern, Hippogriff, Unicorn, etc.

[Doc_Maynot]

Just saying, I can't wait for more to be released. I'm already looking at mixing boxing, open hand, and guardian. Set up a patrol, enemy provokes, extend focus to sucker punch, launching them into the air, hitting then again as they fall.

[Ssalarn]

I have some feedback on the second preview.


Thought I'd touch on a few of these-




I don’t like the name “practitioner”. Some ideas: Master (rhymes with caster), Combatant (unfortunately I think might already be used in the rules somewhere), Warrior, and Battler
For the different levels, why not just go with High, Medium, and Low? Easy to understand and works just like SoP.



Noted!




Lots of people have mentioned this sphere is a big talent drain and the design team has said they’re working on that. One suggestion I have in particular for the Leap basic package is to be able to add both your Strength and Dexterity modifiers to Acrobatics checks made to jump. This would help both STR and DEX builds without breaking too much, since that’s at most a few more feet they can jump. As it is, a DEX-focused character has to spend a talent on the basic package for no benefit, which doesn’t seem right.
Rope Swinger- I love this talent. Lots of fun and useful tactically. However, there should probably be a limit on how far you can move based on the height of the rope. Attaching a rope to a 10-foot ceiling doesn’t let you swing nearly as far as if you attached it to the top of an 80-foot mast. I would suggest this talent lets you designate a circle with a radius equal to the height you’re swinging from and move anywhere in that circle as a move action.
This is more of a problem with the Swim skill than anything else, but the Swim package and talents are very “all-or-nothing”. They are really useful in water, but don’t do much of anything on land. Not sure what can be done about this, though.



Notes taken on most of the commentary, but I'll address one here- Swim is kind of hard to get around, but amongst other things we have a Legendary talent that lets you "swim" through things that aren't water (effectively a burrow ability) that makes it a lot more useful. Also, swimming sucks, and while it cna be frustrating to use talents on it, not having swim facility ends games. It's a little awkward, I agree, but I think there's really only so much we can do with it. We've discussed adding some flight facility to it potentially.




This is a very mechanics-heavy sphere. Lots of changing initiative order, borrowing actions against your next round, and readied actions. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not a sphere I would recommend to new players or GMs.


Agreed, and we've had a few discussions about how to mitigate that as much as possible, but we also like it quite a bit and are hoping not to have to change too much.




This sphere seems designed like something you dedicate a whole build around, much like the Conjuration or Healing Spheres from SoP. Is this intentional?



To a certain extent, yes. There's still some potential to combo it up with other spheres, but tanking is a pretty big job and some of the facility really needs to require that focus and dedication.




I like being able to TWF with a two-handed weapon or a shield. Makes mixed builds more viable.
I like adding the options for tripping, disarming, sundering, etc, as well as dealing different kinds of damage. Really makes it more viable and versatile to have an unarmed-only build.
I would like to see something that lets you avoid monster abilities that deal damage characters using unarmed strikes (quills, heat, etc.) It’s frustrating to be neutered like that.



Noted!




I’d like to see support for Unarmed and Natural Attack builds, as well as ammunition. Something I would especially like to see addressed is shuriken. As it stands, you can customize them, since they are thrown weapons, but they are destroyed on impact, like ammunition. One possibility for ammunition is to let you customize 50 pieces, like enchanting. I could see customized arrows having Sniping techniques added to them, or being used as crampons for Athletics Climbing package abilities. The only issue is the whole “wielding” requirement gets a little wonky.



I think Stack was working on something along these lines.

I'm going to unspoiler for Blacksmith so I can point by point on it-



I really love the vibe of this class. It’s cool, it’s iconic, and I really want to play one. However, it has some serious limitations as currently written.

Issue 1: One-trick pony. The main schtick of this class is Thunderous Blows. Much like a rogue, it’s your main class feature. The problem is that, even more so than a rogue, you only get this bonus against certain enemies. Aberrations, Animals, Dragons, Fey, Magical Beasts, Outsiders, Plants, and Vermin are most likely not going to be wearing armor. In addition, Thunderous Blows don’t help against magic-users, monks, or others who do not wear armor, or who use items like bracers of armor to get armor bonuses without all of the clanky metal.

Actually, you can sunder (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html#sunder) bracers. And wands. And rings. You can literally sunder the shirt your enemy is wearing and all spill-over damage is dealt directly to the target. It's like how my drill sergeant explained the M249 to us back in basic "This is an anti-equipment weapon. That kevlar you're wearing? That's equipment. Your boots? Also equipment."
We actually just discussed adding some options for sundering natural armor and natural weapons to flesh it out a bit on that front.



Issue 2: Sundering your loot. Unlike a rogue’s sneak attack, you have to break your opponent’s armor to get your bonus damage. While you do have options to fix it back up again, it still feels a bit wrong to have to take 8 hours per piece of enchanted loot to undo your main combat focus. (As an aside, I think Quick Fix should be an automatic class feature, not a Smithing Insight. You shouldn’t have the opportunity cost of passing on better in-combat options just so you don’t have to spend money fixing what you’ve broken.)


I'll look at shifting Quick Fix to the main progression and maybe shortening the time to reforge a destroyed item. I might add a clause that if the item has been destroyed within X timeframe, the reforging time is reduced or something along those lines. I just don't want it being an auto-win where the party is finding the pieces of some McGuffin and the GMs big quest to repair it is solved 5 minutes later.



Issue 3: Lackluster maintenance. Preparing these ahead of time really drags this down, as does the limit of only one for the whole party. The flying spellcaster doesn’t really need extra weapon damage or the ability to ignore difficult terrain, but would appreciate an armor bonus from her robes. The mounted fighter doesn’t need better armor, but his mount really needs to be able to charge. I would suggest letting the blacksmith mix-and-match among these, as well as adding a Smithing Insight that lets you change a maintenance option in a minute; not suitable for in-combat use, but it doesn’t mean calling a halt for the day when you see the passageway is full of rubble.

As an always on class buff, I really don't want Maintenances becoming too flexible or strong; the blacksmith is already a pretty solid chassis. It's kind of the trade-off between a Bard being more flexible but working from limited rounds and being shut off by various magic effects, and the Blacksmith's maintenances being of day-long duration and not counting against his action economy at all.
I could see a Smithing Insight to change your Maintenances mid-day though, I'll work on adding that.



Issue 4: Crafting pains. Yes, you get a bonus to crafting, but the problem is Craft is actually many different skills. You need Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), and Craft(Bows) to do your smithing, which is a lot of skill points when you only have 4 + Int.


The Blacksmith does receive a bonus equal to half level on all Craft checks to alleviate and facilitate that a bit, but I'll run it by the team and see if we can't think of a way to boost that. We've discussed 6 + Int, but the team doesn't like that for a full BAB class and I really like the blacksmith at full BAB. I didn't include your suggestions below this, because some of them are already in progress, and others are actually covered by specific sphere abilities that we didn't want to overlap with.

Thank you very much for your feedback!


What about something akin to Versatile Performance for Crafting?

I dig that. A lot.

[Sky]

Thought I'd touch on a few of these-

Swim is kind of hard to get around, but amongst other things we have a Legendary talent that lets you "swim" through things that aren't water (effectively a burrow ability) that makes it a lot more useful. Also, swimming sucks, and while it can be frustrating to use talents on it, not having swim facility ends games. It's a little awkward, I agree, but I think there's really only so much we can do with it. We've discussed adding some flight facility to it potentially.
Awesome. I agree, there's not a whole lot more you can do with it without Advanced Talents stuff. "Swimming" through the air, ground, or lava would be a good reason to take this instead of just buying Plate Armor of the Deep or something.


To a certain extent, yes. There's still some potential to combo it up with other spheres, but tanking is a pretty big job and some of the facility really needs to require that focus and dedication.
This is true. Are any/what other spheres in the works are build-defining? One of the things I'm hoping for with Spheres of Might is to be able to fill multiple roles that normally require heavy feat investment. (A Sword-and-board/archery switchhitter, for example, or a mounted TWF build) So far, I'm really liking what I'm seeing on this front. :smallsmile:


Actually, you can sunder (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html#sunder) bracers. And wands. And rings. You can literally sunder the shirt your enemy is wearing and all spill-over damage is dealt directly to the target. It's like how my drill sergeant explained the M249 to us back in basic "This is an anti-equipment weapon. That kevlar you're wearing? That's equipment. Your boots? Also equipment."
We actually just discussed adding some options for sundering natural armor and natural weapons to flesh it out a bit on that front.
That's a good point. However, as written, the spillover only happens with weapons, armor, or shields. Expanding it to all worn/carried/held items would make it useful against anything that isn't naked. :smalltongue:
Adding an option to sunder natural armor would expand this ability to include most things in the Bestiaries.
Those two options would make it useable for most games, unless you're playing in an all-Ooze campaign or fighting the Order of Naked Monk-Sorcerers.


I'll look at shifting Quick Fix to the main progression and maybe shortening the time to reforge a destroyed item. I might add a clause that if the item has been destroyed within X timeframe, the reforging time is reduced or something along those lines. I just don't want it being an auto-win where the party is finding the pieces of some McGuffin and the GMs big quest to repair it is solved 5 minutes later.
Thanks. I just don't like abilities that are pretty central to the concept of a class buried in a list of options. It could still be traded-out for a "HULK SMASH" archetype, which could get it with a Smithing Insight (sort of like Mutagen and Cognatogen on the Alchemist).
Adding a timeframe could help.
Additionally, can Quick Fix repair destroyed magic items as well as broken ones? If it can, I'm not sure why Reforge calls out "magic items destroyed by sunder" specifically.
If you can fix even destroyed items with Quick Fix, then Reforge is fine as written; I'd imagine most loot has a lower caster level than the party, and it's fine to wait a little longer to use Reforge to fix the shards of Narsil.


As an always on class buff, I really don't want Maintenances becoming too flexible or strong; the blacksmith is already a pretty solid chassis. It's kind of the trade-off between a Bard being more flexible but working from limited rounds and being shut off by various magic effects, and the Blacksmith's maintenances being of day-long duration and not counting against his action economy at all.
I could see a Smithing Insight to change your Maintenances mid-day though, I'll work on adding that.
I can understand limiting the Maintenances to balance the always-on nature, but I do think you should be able to mix-and-match at least a little bit as you level. Changing your Maintenance mid-day would make a good Smithing Insight, since I don't imagine it would come up too often.


The Blacksmith does receive a bonus equal to half level on all Craft checks to alleviate and facilitate that a bit, but I'll run it by the team and see if we can't think of a way to boost that. We've discussed 6 + Int, but the team doesn't like that for a full BAB class and I really like the blacksmith at full BAB. I didn't include your suggestions below this, because some of them are already in progress, and others are actually covered by specific sphere abilities that we didn't want to overlap with.
Agreed; more skill points isn't the answer. Maybe use Profession(Blacksmith) in place of Craft checks for weapons and armor? That would mean you only need to invest in one skill in place of three.


Thank you very much for your feedback!
You're very welcome! I'm looking forward to the final product!

[stack]

Shield use and switch hitting are definitely going to be viable. The armiger is a natural switch hitter, for example.

[digiman619]

Those two options would make it useable for most games, unless you're playing in an all-Ooze campaign or fighting the Order of Naked Monk-Sorcerers.

That made me spill my drink. Bravo. :smallbiggrin:

[N. Jolly]

I have some feedback on the second preview.


I don’t like the name “practitioner”. Some ideas: Master (rhymes with caster), Combatant (unfortunately I think might already be used in the rules somewhere), Warrior, and Battler
For the different levels, why not just go with High, Medium, and Low? Easy to understand and works just like SoP.



Lots of people have mentioned this sphere is a big talent drain and the design team has said they’re working on that. One suggestion I have in particular for the Leap basic package is to be able to add both your Strength and Dexterity modifiers to Acrobatics checks made to jump. This would help both STR and DEX builds without breaking too much, since that’s at most a few more feet they can jump. As it is, a DEX-focused character has to spend a talent on the basic package for no benefit, which doesn’t seem right.
Rope Swinger- I love this talent. Lots of fun and useful tactically. However, there should probably be a limit on how far you can move based on the height of the rope. Attaching a rope to a 10-foot ceiling doesn’t let you swing nearly as far as if you attached it to the top of an 80-foot mast. I would suggest this talent lets you designate a circle with a radius equal to the height you’re swinging from and move anywhere in that circle as a move action.
This is more of a problem with the Swim skill than anything else, but the Swim package and talents are very “all-or-nothing”. They are really useful in water, but don’t do much of anything on land. Not sure what can be done about this, though.



This is a very mechanics-heavy sphere. Lots of changing initiative order, borrowing actions against your next round, and readied actions. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not a sphere I would recommend to new players or GMs.



This sphere seems designed like something you dedicate a whole build around, much like the Conjuration or Healing Spheres from SoP. Is this intentional?




I like being able to TWF with a two-handed weapon or a shield. Makes mixed builds more viable.
I like adding the options for tripping, disarming, sundering, etc, as well as dealing different kinds of damage. Really makes it more viable and versatile to have an unarmed-only build.
I would like to see something that lets you avoid monster abilities that deal damage characters using unarmed strikes (quills, heat, etc.) It’s frustrating to be neutered like that.



I’d like to see support for Unarmed and Natural Attack builds, as well as ammunition. Something I would especially like to see addressed is shuriken. As it stands, you can customize them, since they are thrown weapons, but they are destroyed on impact, like ammunition. One possibility for ammunition is to let you customize 50 pieces, like enchanting. I could see customized arrows having Sniping techniques added to them, or being used as crampons for Athletics Climbing package abilities. The only issue is the whole “wielding” requirement gets a little wonky.



I really love the vibe of this class. It’s cool, it’s iconic, and I really want to play one. However, it has some serious limitations as currently written.

Issue 1: One-trick pony. The main schtick of this class is Thunderous Blows. Much like a rogue, it’s your main class feature. The problem is that, even more so than a rogue, you only get this bonus against certain enemies. Aberrations, Animals, Dragons, Fey, Magical Beasts, Outsiders, Plants, and Vermin are most likely not going to be wearing armor. In addition, Thunderous Blows don’t help against magic-users, monks, or others who do not wear armor, or who use items like bracers of armor to get armor bonuses without all of the clanky metal.
Issue 2: Sundering your loot. Unlike a rogue’s sneak attack, you have to break your opponent’s armor to get your bonus damage. While you do have options to fix it back up again, it still feels a bit wrong to have to take 8 hours per piece of enchanted loot to undo your main combat focus. (As an aside, I think Quick Fix should be an automatic class feature, not a Smithing Insight. You shouldn’t have the opportunity cost of passing on better in-combat options just so you don’t have to spend money fixing what you’ve broken.)
Issue 3: Lackluster maintenance. Preparing these ahead of time really drags this down, as does the limit of only one for the whole party. The flying spellcaster doesn’t really need extra weapon damage or the ability to ignore difficult terrain, but would appreciate an armor bonus from her robes. The mounted fighter doesn’t need better armor, but his mount really needs to be able to charge. I would suggest letting the blacksmith mix-and-match among these, as well as adding a Smithing Insight that lets you change a maintenance option in a minute; not suitable for in-combat use, but it doesn’t mean calling a halt for the day when you see the passageway is full of rubble.
Issue 4: Crafting pains. Yes, you get a bonus to crafting, but the problem is Craft is actually many different skills. You need Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), and Craft(Bows) to do your smithing, which is a lot of skill points when you only have 4 + Int

I really like the creation and modification side of the blacksmith concept, but I don’t see it represented here much. I have some suggestions for fleshing out the creating side of the class a little more.

Suggestion #1: Options for non-armored foes.
A Smithing Insight that lets you reduce a creature’s natural armor. (by ½ your Blacksmith Level for one minute could work)
A Smithing Insight that lets you apply your Thunderous Blows against force effects, like a wall of force or bracers of armor.
Applying your Thunderous Blows on checks to open stuck doors. (You could use Thunderous Blows to break the doors, but sometimes you just want to open them.)
A Smithing Insight that lets you use your Thunderous Blows to smash traps. (Sunder in place of Disable Device, perhaps?)
Bonuses to hit and/or damage when using weapons and armor you have made yourself. (or, like the Armiger Technique Shift Training, apply weapon-specific feats to anything you have created yourself)

Suggestion #2: Smithing improvements.
Gain the Master Craftsman, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Wondrous Item feats as bonus feats as you progress through the class. Ignore spell/sphere requirements by increasing the Craft DC.
Something similar to the Alchemist class features Swift Alchemy and Instant Alchemy, to produce weapons and armor quickly. (Got swallowed without a dagger to cut your way out? Just make one!)
A Smithing Insight that lets you create alloys, making weapons and armor that count as two special materials.
A Smithing Insight (or several) that let you add (Ex) versions of some enchantments to armor and weapons (Balanced, bashing, clangerous, fortification, impervious, reflecting, adaptive, countering, deadly, distance, impact, impervious, keen, menacing, nimble shot, throwing, and wounding are all good possibilities)
A Smithing Insight that lets you add weapon qualities to weapons that do not normally have them (brace, disarm, distracting, trip, etc.)
Consolidating the various Craft skills down to one, or otherwise alleviating the need to put so many skill points into different Craft skills (treat your blacksmith level as ranks in Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), and Craft(Bows)?)



This is a very fiddly class with lots of abilities that boil down to “spend resource to get +X to Y”. I don’t see a lot of connection between the abilities, and there's not a lot there, flavor-wise. I’m not sure what role this class is intended to fulfill, in mechanics or in fluff. I just don’t think I “get it”, if you understand what I mean. Can someone explain how it all ties together? There’s a Wisdom dependency and you get Boxing for free…. Is this a monk-like class? Is it like the Shifter or Eliciter in SoP, where it’s a whole class built around a sphere? I’m very confused about the inspiration and design goals for this class.


Okay, we've made a few changes to striker, it's now con based and goes off of open hand strike. The idea here was a fighter who flows with combat, who reacts to things and gains powers through responding to actions as they're happening, the real time martial. It's intended to be monk like, as most of its features base around unarmed strikes, even if you want to give it light weapons with the favored weapon striker talent.

[master4sword]

We've discussed 6 + Int, but the team doesn't like that for a full BAB class and I really like the blacksmith at full BAB.

Ranger is 6+Int, full BAB, AND 4th-level casting. Just saying, there is precedent in core.

[Vhaidara]

Ranger is 6+Int, full BAB, AND 4th-level casting. Just saying, there is precedent in core.

Vigilante is also 6+ with the option to have full BAB

[Kaidinah]

Vigilante is also 6+ with the option to have full BABSlayer too, if we wanna name another one.



Agreed; more skill points isn't the answer. Maybe use Profession(Blacksmith) in place of Craft checks for weapons and armor? That would mean you only need to invest in one skill in place of three.
In this case, I prefer Profession (Blacksmith) to all craft checks over more skill points.



The system is already flooded with options. Layering customizations on top of customizations on top of customizations makes it so much less accessible. I don't want to have to design my own class from the ground up. I don't want to have to consult three different handbooks to figure out which menu items I should be taking. Alternatives are one thing, but there should be a default too. That customizability, that's why we have archetypes, which do a much better job of the same thing IMO.Thing is, I know a lot of people that love menu classes. I sometimes like menu classes, but prefer classes without menus. Some people really want to consult three different handbooks. Having that degree of customization is not a bad thing. Besides, not every class in the book sounds like it will have menus. That means there will be something in here for everybody to enjoy.

[Ualaa]

A compromise, if you want to go that way, might be like the classes in the latest 4th edition books. The two paperback 'essentials' books, which had simplified but strong classes in them.

At a given point, instead of having a menu where you pick from a multitude of talents (like a Rogue or Slayer would), give the class one of four options.
That would allow for diverse builds, but simplify the process as well.

Then group the menu options in 'best guess' as to relative power, even if it is a little hard to sometimes say one option is more powerful than the next.
With the option of taking something from a previous menu, at subsequent menu points.

Just a thought.

[Hunter Noventa]

Actually, you can sunder (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html#sunder) bracers. And wands. And rings. You can literally sunder the shirt your enemy is wearing and all spill-over damage is dealt directly to the target. It's like how my drill sergeant explained the M249 to us back in basic "This is an anti-equipment weapon. That kevlar you're wearing? That's equipment. Your boots? Also equipment."
We actually just discussed adding some options for sundering natural armor and natural weapons to flesh it out a bit on that front.

I'll look at shifting Quick Fix to the main progression and maybe shortening the time to reforge a destroyed item. I might add a clause that if the item has been destroyed within X timeframe, the reforging time is reduced or something along those lines. I just don't want it being an auto-win where the party is finding the pieces of some McGuffin and the GMs big quest to repair it is solved 5 minutes later.


I think the simplest fix here, since the biggest concern is the Blacksmith destroying loot, is to make it easier for the Blacksmith to repair something that they destroyed. They know how they broke it after all, and that shouldn't make it super easy to fix a busted McGuffin, unless they broke it on purpose.

[Chimmon]

Notes taken on most of the commentary, but I'll address one here- Swim is kind of hard to get around, but amongst other things we have a Legendary talent that lets you "swim" through things that aren't water (effectively a burrow ability) that makes it a lot more useful. Also, swimming sucks, and while it cna be frustrating to use talents on it, not having swim facility ends games. It's a little awkward, I agree, but I think there's really only so much we can do with it. We've discussed adding some flight facility to it potentially.

Why not some passive buffs that play off of how many [swimming] talents you have? Something simple like extra hitpoints, bonuses to saves, a general bonus to X-based skill checks, or bonuses to avoid fatigue or subdual damage. Sort of a "you're in better shape from swimming, even if you aren't in your element" thing.

You could add one to each talent, so it feels like your character is growing exponentially. Or you could add a table like with Unarmed Combatants that plays off of total [swimming] talents instead of [boxing] and [open-handed].

[Mehangel]

Why not some passive buffs that play off of how many [swimming] talents you have? Something simple like extra hitpoints, bonuses to saves, a general bonus to X-based skill checks, or bonuses to avoid fatigue or subdual damage. Sort of a "you're in better shape from swimming, even if you aren't in your element" thing.

You could add one to each talent, so it feels like your character is growing exponentially. Or you could add a table like with Unarmed Combatants that plays off of total [swimming] talents instead of [boxing] and [open-handed].

I like the idea of adding a minor simple passive buff to each [swimming] talent based on how many [swimming] talents you have.

[khadgar567]

I know athletics has rope swing but is there any support for whips and their exotic kin like rope dart( Get over here talent maybe) or using it in like in kill bill and did any one said we can create this bastard (http://rwby.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Wukong) in speres

[stack]

I feel like a stacking system that reflects general physical conditioning would need to be spread across athletics as a whole to make in- world sense. Of course, that doesn't help the mechanical limits of swim.

Whips will get added to rope swing.

[Mehangel]

Whips will get added to rope swing.

Can double-chained kama, kusarigama, meteor hammer, and spiked chains be added for rope swing aswell?

[khadgar567]

Can double-chained kama, kusarigama, meteor hammer, and spiked chains be added for rope swing aswell?
this is why I said and their exotic kin cuz i want rope dart as legit weapon.

[stack]

Can double-chained kama, kusarigama, meteor hammer, and spiked chains be added for rope swing aswell?

Maybe the entire flails weapon group? Most of them need some love.

[ComaVision]

I'm really hoping this Spheres product will stop everyone from choosing Greatsword/Falchion/Spiked Chain all the time in my group. Any plans for a double-weapon sphere?

[Vhaidara]

I'm really hoping this Spheres product will stop everyone from choosing Greatsword/Falchion/Spiked Chain all the time in my group. Any plans for a double-weapon sphere?

People use the PF spiked chain? 3.5 it was actually worth the feat, but the PF one is terrible (they took away the reach, for the unaware)

[khadgar567]

I'm really hoping this Spheres product will stop everyone from choosing Greatsword/Falchion/Spiked Chain all the time in my group. Any plans for a double-weapon sphere?
If we can get some solid wuxia s*th to work with even chopsticks I am sold.

[ComaVision]

People use the PF spiked chain? 3.5 it was actually worth the feat, but the PF one is terrible (they took away the reach, for the unaware)

I play 3.5 but I also use Spheres of Power in my games.

[Ssalarn]

I'm really hoping this Spheres product will stop everyone from choosing Greatsword/Falchion/Spiked Chain all the time in my group. Any plans for a double-weapon sphere?

There's a Dual Wielding sphere focused on TWF and double weapons, but not a double weapon sphere specifically since that would be somewhat narrow and probably overlap with Dual Wielding quite a bit.

[Lirya]

Hopefully a combination of the Dual Wielding sphere and the Lancer sphere can turn the Quarterstaff into something awesome.

[NomGarret]

So we have:

Athletics, Boxing, Guardian, Sniping, and Open Hand that we've seen.

Berzerking, Dual Wield, Dueling, Equipment, Fencing, Lancer, and Shield I believe have all been mentioned.

That leaves about 8 more to reveal. I'm just trying to get a handle on how far we've seen.

[Ssalarn]

So we have:

Athletics, Boxing, Guardian, Sniping, and Open Hand that we've seen.

Berzerking, Dual Wield, Dueling, Equipment, Fencing, Lancer, and Shield I believe have all been mentioned.

That leaves about 8 more to reveal. I'm just trying to get a handle on how far we've seen.

Barrage, Barroom, Brute, Equestrian, Gladiator, Scout, Throwing, Traps, Trickster, Tumbling, Warleader, Wrestling makes all the ones currently written or under development, I believe. I think Tumbling may end up folded into Athletics, but all the others are pretty well developed. We're probably going to end up with a few more spheres than SoP had when all is said and done.

[Doc_Maynot]

Will there be any support for Centaurs to count as mounted while using Equestrian?

[Mehangel]

Will there be any support for Centaurs to count as mounted while using Equestrian?

Please say yes.

[Manyasone]

I'm seeing the 'unwilling boost' talent in the leap package, I'm reading 'lancer'... Please, please make a FF style Dragoon possible with this

[stack]

Will there be any support for Centaurs to count as mounted while using Equestrian?


Please say yes.

That won't really work for the sphere's abilities that involve mounting and dismounting. That would ve messy. I will try to keep it in mind for abilities where it makes sense though.

[EldritchWeaver]

What chassis does the Scholar have? d8, medium BAB, 6 SP?

[Ssalarn]

what chassis does the scholar have? D8, medium bab, 6 sp?

d6, 1/2 bab, 8 sp.

[EldritchWeaver]

d6, 1/2 bab, 8 sp.

So considering other information released s ofar, the Scholar is the class capable of fulfilling the roguish niche. I've planned for a stealth sniper build (meaning the enemy does not find me after I hit him), but with this chassis, I'm not sure how viable it is now. Using bows seems not that effective, even with the advantage mechanic. Any option left, I could pursue instead?

[Ssalarn]

So considering other information released s ofar, the Scholar is the class capable of fulfilling the roguish niche. I've planned for a stealth sniper build (meaning the enemy does not find me after I hit him), but with this chassis, I'm not sure how viable it is now. Using bows seems not that effective, even with the advantage mechanic. Any option left, I could pursue instead?

Scholar has a few different ways of overcoming her natural BAB shortcomings, depending on exactly what you're hoping to do. Her cunning attacker ability lets her use Int to attack and adds a competence bonus on attack rolls against targets she's successfully scouted, for example.

There's also going to be some other options that will let you get your rogue-ishness on, depending on how exactly you want to build your character; the Troubadour is a 3/4 BAB class that gets Personas it can swap between, kind of like a martial combination of the Medium and the Vigilante. With the right Persona sets, you can get your Assassin's Creed on and merc a fool before swapping to a different Persona and disappearing into a crowd.

[stack]

Also depends on what you want from your rogue. Sneak attack, trapfinding, skill points?

[digiman619]

...the Troubadour is a 3/4 BAB class that gets Personas it can swap between, kind of like a martial combination of the Medium and the Vigilante. With the right Persona sets, you can get your Assassin's Creed on and merc a fool before swapping to a different Persona and disappearing into a crowd.

Will they let you be the shadow, the true self?

[Doc_Maynot]

One more question, with guardian being such a high AoO sphere, will there be a feat akin to seize the opportunity, or a talent (legendary or not) that allows it to treat AoOs as attack actions?

[Lirya]

I have been looking and thinking a bit about Open Hand. Currently, it suffers from the fact that apart from boosts to raw numbers with unarmed attacks it feels very bland. The talents that add riders to unarmed attack actions mostly just does that, instead of setting up potential combination attacks. I would prefer if some of these moves cannot be triggered by the same action, but are instead chained together on AoO or by spending Martial Focus.

The Base Sphere ability, Deadly Hand, Lunging Strikes, Mystic Fists, and Piercing Pound are solid raw boosts. Eye Gouger is also a very strong talent, but it is probably stronger for characters who specialize in a piercing weapon and thus forces a Fort save vs. blind with every Attack Action instead of for unarmed fighters who Dedicate Focus to make their attacks piercing. I might even be tempted to have the more nasty conditions from Eye Gouge and Knockout Blow only activate if you spend your Focus or confirm a crit, and otherwise only apply a lesser condition.

Currently, Sweeping Kicks has some synergy with Snap Kick and Axe Kick. However, as far as raw number boosts go Axe Kick is fairly minor since it only applies to Attack Actions, and you would typically need to spend your attack action to knock something prone in the first place. Perhaps Snap Kick could get a note that if you have Axe Kick then the extra damage from that talent applies to the AoO granted by Snap Kick?

Hammer Palm grants you a free Bull Rush attempt, but there is nothing else in Open Hand that interacts with Bull Rush. The talent would be much more tempting if there also existed (or it included) options that allow you to Bull Rush creatures into objects or other creatures for additional effects. Or perhaps turning a successful Bull Rush into a Throw. Basically, make a trio of talents that create enough synergy around Bull Rush to make it a tempting investment.

Shattering Palm and Waving Hand give bonuses to maneuvers that none of the other talents give you free attempts at them or special effects that are triggered from a successful use of the maneuver. I assume more talents are being written to solve this issue, but for now it just looks strange. They could also work if other spheres and abilities interact with the weapon properties, as tax to open up unarmed with those styles. An example would be if Shattering Palm lets the Blacksmith treat unarmed strikes as a hammer for most of his abilities.

Edit: What I want to be able to achieve is something like this. "You move up to an enemy and perform a Sweeping Axe Kick followed by a Snap Axe Kick for massive damage. Then you expend your Martial Focus to allow Hammer Palm to trigger from the AoO granted by Snap Kick, and use the Bull Rush to throw your target into a 2nd creature for further effect."

[EldritchWeaver]

Scholar has a few different ways of overcoming her natural BAB shortcomings, depending on exactly what you're hoping to do. Her cunning attacker ability lets her use Int to attack and adds a competence bonus on attack rolls against targets she's successfully scouted, for example.

There's also going to be some other options that will let you get your rogue-ishness on, depending on how exactly you want to build your character; the Troubadour is a 3/4 BAB class that gets Personas it can swap between, kind of like a martial combination of the Medium and the Vigilante. With the right Persona sets, you can get your Assassin's Creed on and merc a fool before swapping to a different Persona and disappearing into a crowd.


Also depends on what you want from your rogue. Sneak attack, trapfinding, skill points?

Considering the background and intended use, I need to have the ability to employ/create poison and to be able to hide effectively from enemies in combat. This is supposed to be a secondary character and should be able to switched on only if he needs to be actually involved. For the hiding part I might get (discussion with GM still going on) via a special transformation ability, which leaves me at diminutive or tiny size. So not necessarily via the Scouting package. As that character is already in hiding and using ranged weaponry is making more sense for when actually getting involved in combat, I've been thinking about using the Expert Sniper feat, which allows me to employ the "keep hiding after shooting someone" option for only a -10 penalty. Admittedly, that part would be a nice synergistic benefit and not strictly necessary.

For the roguish part, trapfinding is a must, as is dealing with locked doors. Sneaking around is probably covered thanks to above. If I can do stealth attacks, then having sneak attack damage is certainly nice, but there might be other damage options. Strictly speaking, the rogue VMC would be ok to get some of the parts here. Personally, I wouldn't mind being able to do something extra (like the Scholar's healing), but that is purely gravy.

[khadgar567]

I am interested in Troubadour class can this puppy can be used to create v from vendetta series or how thousand faced this guy is( vanilla vigilante, or complete master mind of disguise like diabolik were freaking no one catch him while disguised?

[Sky]

What kind of item support is in the works for Spheres of Might? In particular:

Will there be a way to get an enhancement bonus to BAB, like you can enhance your caster level with a staff?

Will there be a way to purchase objects with talents/spheres invested in them? (e.g. a staff or wand) I see some of this in the Armiger, but will it be available for other classes?

Will there be a way to temporarily grant spheres/talents? (e.g. potions)

Any plans for new armor or weapon enchantments or enhancements?

[NomGarret]

What kind of item support is in the works for Spheres of Might? In particular:

Will there be a way to get an enhancement bonus to BAB, like you can enhance your caster level with a staff?

Will there be a way to purchase objects with talents/spheres invested in them? (e.g. a staff or wand) I see some of this in the Armiger, but will it be available for other classes?

Will there be a way to temporarily grant spheres/talents? (e.g. potions)

Any plans for new armor or weapon enchantments or enhancements?

I have trouble seeing enhancement bonus to BAB as a broad rule, but a specific enchantment that lets you count your BAB as X higher for determining the effects of talents might work.

On a different note, I'm convinced that the Dueling sphere will support Iaijutsu. If I'm wrong, please let me down now.

[khadgar567]

can flurry sphere be used with odd objects like sword ala unlimited blade works or gate of babylon?

[phlidwsn]

I have trouble seeing enhancement bonus to BAB as a broad rule, but a specific enchantment that lets you count your BAB as X higher for determining the effects of talents might work.

On a different note, I'm convinced that the Dueling sphere will support Iaijutsu. If I'm wrong, please let me down now.

Or cap it at character level like the various multiclassing helper feats/trais.

[khadgar567]

Or cap it at character level like the various multiclassing helper feats/trais.
still it gives full bab to even wizard which bit unnecessary one thing i like to see actually way to put might talents to weapons and let fighter use them by using weapon it self like shirou emiya with his trace on skill .

[LordOfCain]

I'm playing a striker from the preview in an online campaign with my friends right now and it's really fun!

[N. Jolly]

I'm playing a striker from the preview in an online campaign with my friends right now and it's really fun!

Awesome, glad to hear it! Please let us know what did (or didn't) work for you with the class so we can make sure to help tune it to perfection.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Am I the only one that's somewhat concerned with the talents like Rope Swinger that seem to represent something characters should already be able to do? Using a grappling hook to swing across a gap/past enemies shouldn't be gated behind a talent imo. This was actually one of the first things I house-ruled out of my D&D and Pathfinder games, like the Rogue Crawl talent, Leadership, and most Teamwork feats. I'd hate to remove these options from characters and ignoring a bunch of options baked into the system would not be my preferred way to avoid that.

I'm also confused as to why Combat Stamina isn't being used as the obvious answer to Spell Points? Only having Martial Focus seems like it severely limits an already more limited system compared to SoP.

I'd be glad to have these worries prove unfounded, but right now I've seen nothing to assuage them.

[digiman619]

Noticed the 10 planned Mighty classes, and I've gotta say, I'm liking that there are 2 low-BAB classes, as it mirrors the two low-casters in SoP. The Technician sounds like a class for brother (who wanted to build steampunk stuff in my RotRL campaign) and part of me wants a Troubador archetype about shadows just so I can make the Persona joke. Also, if Troubadors work like the fluff suggests, an archetype using Vigilante talents seems like a no-brainer.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

part of me wants a Troubadour archetype about shadows just so I can make the Persona joke.

Might take a look at the Master Chymist. Having a "superpowered evil/id form" a la shadows or Mr. Hyde seems right up this class' alley.

[khadgar567]

Might take a look at the Master Chymist. Having a "superpowered evil/id form" a la shadows or Mr. Hyde seems right up this class' alley.
nah its more about summoner then alchemist with weird cocktails the basic premise of 5th game progtagonist and his cast uses masks as focus to summon their eidolons with small problem hero uses multiple eidolons bound to multiple masks.

[digiman619]

Might take a look at the Master Chymist. Having a "superpowered evil/id form" a la shadows or Mr. Hyde seems right up this class' alley.


nah its more about summoner then alchemist with weird cocktails the basic premise of 5th game progtagonist and his cast uses masks as focus to summon their eidolons with small problem hero uses multiple eidolons bound to multiple masks.

Yeah, but they literally have a class feature named Persona. How could I not make that joke?

[khadgar567]

Yeah, but they literally have a class feature named Persona. How could I not make that joke?
chemist or trobodour which one you are talking about.

[Milo v3]

chemist or trobodour which one you are talking about.

Trobodour, the dev's said it has an ability called Persona. So he made a joke about the Persona line of games.

[stack]

Am I the only one that's somewhat concerned with the talents like Rope Swinger that seem to represent something characters should already be able to do? Using a grappling hook to swing across a gap/past enemies shouldn't be gated behind a talent imo. This was actually one of the first things I house-ruled out of my D&D and Pathfinder games, like the Rogue Crawl talent, Leadership, and most Teamwork feats. I'd hate to remove these options from characters and ignoring a bunch of options baked into the system would not be my preferred way to avoid that.

I'm also confused as to why Combat Stamina isn't being used as the obvious answer to Spell Points? Only having Martial Focus seems like it severely limits an already more limited system compared to SoP.

I'd be glad to have these worries prove unfounded, but right now I've seen nothing to assuage them.
Can you already tie a rope to something and try to swing around? Yes. What the talent does is allow you to do so quickly, avoid AOOs and obstacles in between start and finish, and otherwise gives rules to make doing it easy and useful. We don't want to rule out things that you should be able to do normally, but I believe that talent goes a ways beyond what you would normally be allowed to do.

[N. Jolly]

Am I the only one that's somewhat concerned with the talents like Rope Swinger that seem to represent something characters should already be able to do? Using a grappling hook to swing across a gap/past enemies shouldn't be gated behind a talent imo. This was actually one of the first things I house-ruled out of my D&D and Pathfinder games, like the Rogue Crawl talent, Leadership, and most Teamwork feats. I'd hate to remove these options from characters and ignoring a bunch of options baked into the system would not be my preferred way to avoid that.

I'm also confused as to why Combat Stamina isn't being used as the obvious answer to Spell Points? Only having Martial Focus seems like it severely limits an already more limited system compared to SoP.

I'd be glad to have these worries prove unfounded, but right now I've seen nothing to assuage them.

One thing I can say is we can't account for people's house rules, which is an issue. If it's something your players can normally do, they won't need this talent, but for others, it's something that isn't really covered in the rules, making it a helpful talent.

As far as stamina points, we've agreed that we don't want to use any subsystems that require other books, such as Pathfinder Unchained, for the core mechanics. Plus almost all of our talents aren't things to which we believe should cost a limited resource to use, unlike Spheres of Power, where a resource was very much needed. Martial Focus is more of a 'big thing' to blow, something we think shouldn't be available constantly. It's our balance feature, but it only really plays into a few talents for a few spheres, and isn't something that's always needed to expend for a lot of things. We're still playing around with things, but martial focus gives us the ability to give a slightly stronger ability than normal without having to come up with a different way to balance it, which is very liberating on our part design wise.

[NomGarret]

Can you already tie a rope to something and try to swing around? Yes. What the talent does is allow you to do so quickly, avoid AOOs and obstacles in between start and finish, and otherwise gives rules to make doing it easy and useful. We don't want to rule out things that you should be able to do normally, but I believe that talent goes a ways beyond what you would normally be allowed to do.

In this example in particular, I think some of the text could be separated out to lessen this kind of confusion. Perhaps a "Normal" line can be added below, like many feats have, to quickly reference what a regular grappling hook range increment is. The main text of the talent should be any rules that are different from standard. Reminding people that untying someone's rope is a standard action is perhaps better as a sidebar. Hopefully this makes it clearer that the talent is not making rope swinging possible, just more efficient.

[Mehangel]

In this example in particular, I think some of the text could be separated out to lessen this kind of confusion. Perhaps a "Normal" line can be added below, like many feats have, to quickly reference what a regular grappling hook range increment is. The main text of the talent should be any rules that are different from standard. Reminding people that untying someone's rope is a standard action is perhaps better as a sidebar. Hopefully this makes it clearer that the talent is not making rope swinging possible, just more efficient.

I actually think it would be awesome if the relevant Combat talents each had a Normal: line below the main text of the talent. There were a number of people who disliked Pathfinder's Vigilante and Skill Unlocks, because they made things which should've already been possible devoted to specific classes and feats.

By including a "Normal" line, it will emphasize that these actions were already possible, but were simply more difficult to accomplish.

[Ssalarn]

I actually think it would be awesome if the relevant Combat talents each had a Normal: line below the main text of the talent. There were a number of people who disliked Pathfinder's Vigilante and Skill Unlocks, because they made things which should've already been possible devoted to specific classes and feats.

By including a "Normal" line, it will emphasize that these actions were already possible, but were simply more difficult to accomplish.

The biggest issue with "Normal" lines (other than potentially adding nearly 1/3 additional word count to the existing text and thus forcing us to cut material elsewhere) is that many interactions aren't clearly defined, and we can't assume a normal that's not based specifically on core rules.

Rope Swinger may incorporate some existing rules into its framework, but reprinting those rules again in a Normal line would make that single talent nearly a quarter page all by itself, and many people may not already know what those rules actually are. I'd much rather see a talent that stands alone with some minor redundancy than have the talent send you searching for corresponding rules, or have it become so bloated with text that we have no choice but to cut it entirely.

[Mehangel]

I'd much rather see a talent that stands alone with some minor redundancy than have the talent send you searching for corresponding rules, or have it become so bloated with text that we have no choice but to cut it entirely.

I understand what you are saying, but the last thing I want to see is GM's telling players that that they must use Combat Sphere X or Combat Talent Y to do mundane tasks such as 'Climb ontop a larger creature' or 'Swing on a rope across the room'. What if instead a 'Normal' line for the relevant talents, a sidebar is included that explains that many of these Talents merely make tasks easier, and then giving a couple examples such as the 'Climbing ontop larger creatures' or 'Rope Swinging'.

[JoshuaZ]

I understand what you are saying, but the last thing I want to see is GM's telling players that that they must use Combat Sphere X or Combat Talent Y to do mundane tasks such as 'Climb ontop a larger creature' or 'Swing on a rope across the room'. What if instead a 'Normal' line for the relevant talents, a sidebar is included that explains that many of these Talents merely make tasks easier, and then giving a couple examples such as the 'Climbing ontop larger creatures' or 'Rope Swinging'.

This seems like a really good idea; one of the problems that 3.5 had was how many feats and skill tricks essentially ended up functionally saying that you couldn't try to do things if you didn't have the relevant feats even though they were reasonable things to try.

[LordOfCain]

Maybe just say that: "Effects of these spheres may not be exclusive to these spheres. The GM may rule that with sufficient skill checks, ability checks, feats, or other statistics, a character is capable of doing a similar thing to that in a sphere. Most of the more "supernatural" talents should not be able to be accessed this way, i.e. the legendary talents." or something similar. I'm not sure.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Oh, so it's more like how the base talents make you better at swimming or climbing, rather than presenting it as a "Cool and New Option?" That's a relief. It could do with better wording, as the above posts have suggested.

Am I correct then in my new understanding that most talents will be passive bonuses that do not require Focus to use?