Shadowcraft Mage Sorcerer build help?

[Schattenbach]

I'm currently working on creating an Sorcerer-based Shadowcraft Mage and still busy with trying to figure out how to improve it further. The main points are the class levels, what domains and feats to pick as well as what spells known to use and which spells to put on the runestaff.

Race: Sylph
ECL: 20
32-Point-buy-Stats (& Racial Adjustment):
Str. 10-2
Dex. 12+2
Con. 14-2
Int. 16+4
Wis. 8+6
Cha. 16+6
Classes and such thus far (could still be improved): RHD+3 + Sorcerer 1 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Dweomerkeeper 4 / Nightmare Spinner 1 ... not particulary sure about how to develope the character into epic levels, though. Eventually, it is supposed to also gain at least 8 Cosmic Descryer levels but there's quite a bit of space to fill in between then. Incanatrix (well, three Incanatrix levels to persist stuff up to at least eight times per day) would most certainly increase the power even further, but I don't think that it - in terms of fluff and flavour - fits together with this character concept all that well.

Knowledge Domain (comes for free anyway and Knowledge skills are going to be important this time around) and Magic Domain (for Dweomerkeeper access) are necessary, so that leaves one domain slot free to put in something that fits in just fine. Time and Luck are always great choices, I guess ... Destiny would be much better with Incanatrix (Persistent Choose Destiny is simply too good), but ... well, be that as it may be. Creation doesn't seem all that bad for attemps to somehow get access to True Creation, but doesn't provide much otherwise. Any other suggestion?

Feats ...

1) Spell Focus (illusion)
3) Heighten Spell
6) Sanctum Spell (though there's still some need for some reliable access to Acorns of Far Travel to actually make Sanctum spell carry its weight)

Otherwise ...

Rapid Metamagic & Residual Magic seem both pretty crucial. What to use the remaining feat(s) for? 1x Expanded Spell Knowledge (although that seems like quite the waste as far as feats go)? The required item creation feat for
Dweomerkeeper can be replaced, if I remember right, once the required magic item has been created (the cheapest option for that should be Scribe Scroll & the most practical might be the Staff Creation feat). Hm ...

As for spells ... they're supposed to be suiteable for both exploration (in Sandbox situations where suddenly running in highly dangerous stuff - like, for example, some Bone Ooze or something even worse - might just happen) AND everyday tasks (and other stuff any character that isn't just focused on adventuring might feel like to use its magical power for), so some stuff that's useful for general roleplay and such

1: Grease, True Strike, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image ... one of these spells might#ve to be replaced by Net of Shadows, though
2: Glitterdust, Ray of Stupidity, Mirror Image, Resist Energy, Rope Trick ... some other stuff that might be worthwhile might be Dimension Hop, Locate Object and Detect Thoughts (I'm not sure Web, Wings of Cover See Invisibility are worthwhile here as well as in regard of if they can be properly be replicated through Silent Image)
3: Fly, Heart of Water, ???, Stinking Cloud (though that could, with spell resistance, just be replicated by Heightened Silent Image, although then there isn't much to use against Golems and high SR targets at all), ??? ... some spells among Suggestion, Magic Circle Against Evil, Alter Fortune, Slow, Sleet Storm (though that could, with spell resistance, just be replicated by Heightened Silent Image) and Unluck might be worthwhile when it comes to filling those slots ...
4: Enervation?, Dimension Door, ???, ??? ... some spells among Orb of Force (though that could, with spell resistance, just be replicated by Heightened Silent Image, although then there isn't much to use against Golems and high SR targets at all), Dimensional Anchor, Greater Invisibility, Celerity, Heart of Earth could also be selected here, I guess, while useful stuff like Resilient Sphere and Wings of Flurry could just be replicated by Heightened Silent Image.
5: Teleport, Telekinesis, ???, Contact Other Plane ... some spells among Greater Blink and Lesser Planar Binding (kind of unnecessary once Greater Planar Binding is there expect for qualifying for Cosmic Descryer) and such could be used to fill up whatever space remains here ... I'm not too sure about if Solid Fog or Wall of Stone would serve any purpose here (expect for things with high spellresistance/magic immunity)
6: Greater Dispel Magic, ???, ??? ... Disintegrate (only really useful for getting through obstacles later on, though ... and that could be done via some other spells as well), Superior Resistance?, Gemjump?, Planar Binding (kind of unnecessary once Greater Planar Binding is there expect for qualifying for Cosmic Descryer), Probe Thoughts?, Scry Location?, Fleshshiver, Freezing Glance? ... Freezing Fog?
7: Plane Shift, Limited Wish, ??? ... some spells among Simulacrum, Greater Teleport, Fey Ring, (((Moment of Prescience))), Greater Scrying, Project Image, Elemental Body, Control Weather, Reverse Gravity could be used here as well but there isn't much space left to fill up here to begin with
8: Mind Blank, Polymorph any Object, Greater Planar Binding ... that's pretty much it, I guess, though I'm not sure if anything among stuff like Moment of Prescience, (((Foresight))), (((True Creation))), Ghostform, Otto’s irresistible dance or Avascular Mass could still be fitted in there.
9: Shapechange, Time Stop, Wish ... while stuff like Foresight, Gate (though Gate is necessary if Silent Image replicated isn't enough to qualify for Cosmic Descryer) or Prismatic Sphere is nice, there shouldn't be much space left to fit them in there, I guess.

Has someone some helpful ideas about how to improve this build?

Thanks in advance.

Edit ... Update

Updated Spells Known (the list above is now spoilered to avoid confusion):

1: Grease, True Strike, Shield, Silent Image, Net of Shadows ... Net of Shadows for Shadowcraft Mage access and such, could be replaced with Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Ray of Stupidity, Mirror Image, Resist Energy, Locate Object, Rope Trick
3: Fly?, Heart of Water?, Suggestion?, Stinking Cloud?, Alter Fortune? ...
4: Dimension Door, Orb of Force, Celerity, Friendly Fire ... Enervation?, Heart of Earth?, Greater Mirror Image?, Shadow Well?, Scrying?
5: Teleport, Telekinesis, ???, Contact Other Plane ... Arcane Fusion?, Persistent Image?, Dominate Person?, Necrotic Skull Bomb?, ???
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Scry Location?, ??? ... Gemjump?, Probe Thoughts?, Permanent Image?, Superior Resistance?, Freezing Glance?
7: Limited Wish, ???, Arcane Spellsurge ...
8: Polymorph any Object, Moment of Prescience, Greater Planar Binding ...
9: Shapechange, Time Stop, Wish ...


(Sample Build ... I although quite like the Ultimate Magus version suggested below, too) (LA+5) + 3 RHD + Sorcerer1(+1) / Cloistered Cleric1(+1) / Shadowcraft Mage5(+5) / Dweomerkeeper4(+4) / Nightmare Spinner1(+1) / Dweomerkeeper10(+6) / Cosmic Descryer 8+


Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer, I guess? The familiar is pretty useless with only one sorcerer level to begin with and as such, is just a hassle to keep safe.

Updated Feats (the list above is now spoilered to avoid confusion):


1.) Spellfocus: Illusion ... Lvl.5? Sorcerer Spellcasting
3.) Heighten Spell ... Lvl.7 Sorcerer Spellcasting
6.) Arcane Disciple (Balance Domain) ... Lvl.12 Sorcerer Spellcasting
9.) ((Item Creation Feat)) ... Lvl.18 Sorcerer Spellcasting
12.) Sanctum Spell ... Lvl.24 Sorcerer Spellcasting
15.) Persistent Spell ... Lvl.29 Sorcerer Spellcasting
18.) Residual Magic ... Lvl.36 Sorcerer Spellcasting
21.) Epic Spellcasting ((or Energy Resistance Epic Feat?)) ... Lvl.42 Sorcerer Spellcasting

Somewhere, Spell Focus: Conjuration would've to be fitted in to properly qualify for Cosmic Descryer, though.

When using 2 flaws, Eschew Material (for practical reasons) and Spellfocus: Illusion through flaws and:
1.) Heighten Spell
3.) Sanctum Spell ... Lvl.7 Sorcerer Spellcasting
6.) Arcane Disciple (Balance Domain) ... Lvl.12 Sorcerer Spellcasting
9.) ((Item Creation Feat)) ... Lvl.18 Sorcerer Spellcasting
12.) Persistent Spell ... Lvl.24 Sorcerer Spellcasting
15.) Residual Magic ... Lvl.29 Sorcerer Spellcasting
18.) Twin Spell ((or Spellfocus: Conjuration?)) ... Lvl.36 Sorcerer Spellcasting
21.) Epic Spellcasting Feat ((or Energy Resistance Epic Feat?)) ... Lvl.42 Sorcerer Spellcasting

Edit ... Update 2:

Updated Spells Known (the lists above are now spoilered to avoid confusion):

0: ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ??? ...
1: Grease, True Strike, Charm Person, Silent Image, Net of Shadows ... Net of Shadows for Shadowcraft Mage access and such, could be replaced with Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Ray of Stupidity, Mirror Image, Wings of Cover, Locate Object, Rope Trick
3: Fly?, Heart of Water?, Suggestion?, Stinking Cloud?, Alter Fortune? ... Major Image?
4: Dimension Door, Orb of Force, Celerity, Friendly Fire ...
5: Teleport, Telekinesis, Arcane Fusion?, Contact Other Plane ... Persistent Image?
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Scry Location, ??? ... Gemjump?, Probe Thoughts?, Permanent Image?, Superior Resistance?, Freezing Glance?
7: Limited Wish, ???, Arcane Spellsurge ...
8: Polymorph any Object, Moment of Prescience, Greater Arcane Fusion ...
9: Shapechange, Time Stop, Wish ...

Updated Spells Known while using the Spellpoint System for Spontaneous casters:

0: ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ???, ??? ...
1: Grease, True Strike, Charm Person, Silent Image, Net of Shadows ... Net of Shadows for Shadowcraft Mage access and such, could be replaced with Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Ray of Stupidity, Mirror Image, Wings of Cover, Locate Object, Rope Trick
3: Fly?, Heart of Water?, Suggestion?, Stinking Cloud?, Alter Fortune? ... Major Image?
4: Dimension Door, Orb of Force, Celerity, Friendly Fire ...
5: Teleport, Telekinesis, Arcane Fusion, Contact Other Plane ...
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Scry Location, Analyze Dweomer? or Probe Thoughts?? ... Gemjump?, Permanent Image?, Superior Resistance?, Freezing Glance?
7: Limited Wish, Energy Immunity, Arcane Spellsurge ...
8: Polymorph any Object, Moment of Prescience, Greater Arcane Fusion ...
9: Wish, Shapechange, Time Stop ...


(Sample Build ... I although quite like the Ultimate Magus version suggested below, too) (LA+5) + 3 RHD + Sorcerer1(+1) / Cloistered Cleric1(+1) / Dweomerkeeper4(+4) / Shadowcraft Mage5(+5) / Mindbender1(+1) / Dweomerkeeper10(+6) + Epic Dweomerkeeper6(+6)

Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer ...

Updated Feats (the list above is now spoilered to avoid confusion):


1.) Heighten Spell ... Lvl.5? Sorcerer Spellcasting
3.) ((Item Creation Feat)) ... Lvl.7 Sorcerer Spellcasting ((some important item creation feats aren't available, so cannot be swapped out for these at that level, yet))
6.) Arcane Disciple (Balance Domain) or Arcane Disciple (Luck Domain) ... Lvl.12 Sorcerer Spellcasting
9.) Spellfocus: Illusion ... Lvl.18 Sorcerer Spellcasting
12.) Sanctum Spell ... Lvl.24 Sorcerer Spellcasting ((Could be swapped out while crafting magic items for magic item creation feats that couldn't be taken at level 3))
15.) Persistent Spell ... Lvl.30 Sorcerer Spellcasting
18.) Residual Magic or Mindsight ... Lvl.36 Sorcerer Spellcasting
21.) Epic Spellcasting ... Lvl.42 Sorcerer Spellcasting

Somewhere, Spell Focus: Conjuration would've to be fitted in to properly qualify for Cosmic Descryer, though.

When using 2 flaws, Eschew Material (for practical reasons) and Spellfocus: Illusion through flaws and:
1.) Heighten Spell
3.) ((Item Creation Feat)) ... Lvl.7 Sorcerer Spellcasting ((some important item creation feats aren't available, so cannot be swapped out for these at that level, yet))
6.) Arcane Disciple (Balance Domain) or Arcane Disciple (Luck Domain) ... Lvl.12 Sorcerer Spellcasting
9.) Sanctum Spell ... Lvl.18 Sorcerer Spellcasting ((Could be swapped out while crafting magic items for magic item creation feats that couldn't be taken at level 3))
12.) Persistent Spell ... Lvl.24 Sorcerer Spellcasting
15.) Residual Magic (or Mindsight) ... Lvl.30 Sorcerer Spellcasting
18.) Mindsight or Repeat Spell (or Residual Magic) ... Lvl.36 Sorcerer Spellcasting
21.) Epic Spellcasting Feat ... Lvl.42 Sorcerer Spellcasting

Note ... post updated yet again ... important updates bolded within text above.

[Ludic]

If Forgotten Realms is allowed. Shadow Adept is nice.

It requires the Shadoweave Magic feat, but a one level dip gives you Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, and Tenacious Magic for free all make you better equipped against casters than don't have the Shadowweave Magic feat. Granted you lose some effectiveness of Evocation spells, but, with SHadow Evocation who really cares.

Also, this idea is usually built on a Gnome, so you can take the Shadowcraft Mage PrC as well.

[Anthrowhale]

Are class HD advancing Sylph casting here (i.e. cast spells as Sorcerer level 29 at ECL 20?)?

[Schattenbach]

If Forgotten Realms is allowed. Shadow Adept is nice.

Shadow Adept itself is reasonably nice indeed, so that's a nice suggestion in and itself ... Problem here is that it eats up a feat (Wizard does it better) and the things that it provide don't really make up for it besides the fact that, when taking that first level while epic, it#s easy to Dark Chaos Shuffle those three feats away for some decent to broken epic feats. However, the more important problem, however, is that Shadow Adept is (though one could rule otherwise) is completely incompatible with Dweomerkeeper, and Dweomerkeeper >>> Shadow Adept, so Shadow Adept doesn't help much in this case.


Also, this idea is usually built on a Gnome, so you can take the Shadowcraft Mage PrC as well.

The cabal option is pretty much free for every concept that is sufficiently compatible with that kind of organisation (i.e. beings that aren't particulary bad with illusions and that aren't against associating with one such cabal).


Are class HD advancing Sylph casting here (i.e. cast spells as Sorcerer level 29 at ECL 20?)?

They should be advancing Sylph casting here ... though as I'm planning to let the character stay true neutral, there isn't much point in trying to get something like Word of Chaos, Dictum and such on the character that makes high caster levels as troublesome as it could actually be.

[Anthrowhale]

They should be advancing Sylph casting here ... true neutral

W.r.t. classes, using the extra levels to pick up DK 10 seems nice. That (a) fully advances casting (b) provides more Supernatural spells, eliminating the downside of SR:Yes in illusions and (c) reduces the cost of metamagic. Although this is powerful, it actually seems underpowered to other characters with undelayed access to epic feats... You should definitely use level buyoff when/if you can.

For feats, you could acquire "Word of Balance" via the Balance Domain via the Arcane Disciple feat which gives you a no-save no-SR (with Supernatural spell) kill spell that can be cast off your Silent Image.

Residual Magic seems helpful.

Rapid Metamagic seems less necessary because Arcane Spellsurge (7th level spell) + Persistent Spell allows you to cast two spells instead. Take the planning domain for Extend Spell. Then, DK 10 + Shapechange[Tome Dragon] reduces Persistent Spell to +2 so Persistent Arcane Spellsurge (possibly extended with a rod) requires only a 9th level slot. The advantage of Arcane Spellsurge is that you can cast 2 spells/round (one with metamagic, and one without).

An item creation feat is not optional for DK if you want to continue meeting prerequisites.

Sanctum spell is ok, but seems relatively expendable here.

I really like Twin Spell for the casting doubler that implies.

Glitterdust is a conjuration[creation] spell that you can mimic, so ehh... The 4th level spell Celerity pairs well with Supernatural Limited Wish[Persistent Favor of the Martyr]. The 5th level spell Arcane Fusion is great. I'd put Greater Arcane Fusion ahead of Greater Planar Binding. One Orb of Force seems good. Friendly Fire is a good ranged defense. You might be able to get mindblank via an item instead, and you want true seeing the same way. If you can scrape up room for an extra feat, Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] would allow you to make a Persistent[Ghostform] allowing you to ignore all mundane damage sources. Combine with Persistent[Mystic Shield] and not much will hit you. Being very elusive seems consistent with the character.

[Schattenbach]

Sorry for the late answer. Thanks for the - very helpful - advice.


W.r.t. classes, using the extra levels to pick up DK 10 seems nice. That (a) fully advances casting (b) provides more Supernatural spells, eliminating the downside of SR:Yes in illusions and (c) reduces the cost of metamagic. Although this is powerful, it actually seems underpowered to other characters with undelayed access to epic feats... You should definitely use level buyoff when/if you can.

That seems like it's the best option, indeed.


For feats, you could acquire "Word of Balance" via the Balance Domain via the Arcane Disciple feat which gives you a no-save no-SR (with Supernatural spell) kill spell that can be cast off your Silent Image.

As far as I'm aware, there's no 100-% consensus of what constitutes the Sorcerer and Wizard spell list, so while it adds it to the spell list of the charactr's arcane class, it might still not be part of THE sorcerer/wizard spell list (and thus replicateable via Silent Image)? It's sad that the Mantle of Spells is pretty much useless here, too.


Residual Magic seems helpful.

Rapid Metamagic seems less necessary because Arcane Spellsurge (7th level spell) + Persistent Spell allows you to cast two spells instead. Take the planning domain for Extend Spell. Then, DK 10 + Shapechange[Tome Dragon] reduces Persistent Spell to +2 so Persistent Arcane Spellsurge (possibly extended with a rod) requires only a 9th level slot. The advantage of Arcane Spellsurge is that you can cast 2 spells/round (one with metamagic, and one without).

That's a great suggestion, thanks.


An item creation feat is not optional for DK if you want to continue meeting prerequisites.

Ah .. that's right, I guess. I forgot about the "and" part of the prerequisites. What item creation feat might be the best choice here?


Sanctum spell is ok, but seems relatively expendable here.

Without the use of Sanctum spell, it becomes kind of hard to replicate 9th level spells, though, even if the epic feat version of heighten takes care of that somewhat later on.


I really like Twin Spell for the casting doubler that implies.

Twin Spell is very good, it's hard to fit in, though.


Glitterdust is a conjuration[creation] spell that you can mimic, so ehh... The 4th level spell Celerity pairs well with Supernatural Limited Wish[Persistent Favor of the Martyr]. The 5th level spell Arcane Fusion is great. I'd put Greater Arcane Fusion ahead of Greater Planar Binding. One Orb of Force seems good. Friendly Fire is a good ranged defense. You might be able to get mindblank via an item instead, and you want true seeing the same way. If you can scrape up room for an extra feat, Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] would allow you to make a Persistent[Ghostform] allowing you to ignore all mundane damage sources. Combine with Persistent[Mystic Shield] and not much will hit you. Being very elusive seems consistent with the character.

I forgot about Glitterdust being an Creation effect, thanks for pointing that out ... "Persistent Favor of the Martyr" as item is (crafting price, was it? No idea about the market price ... ) ~128,000gp (i.e. at least 5 castings of Supernatural Wish in terms of gp), so it might be more efficient to get it as item instead (just like Mind Blank). I'm not sure about giving up greater Planar Binding ... Otherwise, all of these suggestions look very nice. I will update the first post above this evening.

Hm ... what equipment to use?

[Anthrowhale]

As far as I'm aware, there's no 100-% consensus of what constitutes the Sorcerer and Wizard spell list, so while it adds it to the spell list of the charactr's arcane class, it might still not be part of THE sorcerer/wizard spell list (and thus replicateable via Silent Image)? It's sad that the Mantle of Spells is pretty much useless here, too.


When Arcane Disciple says:
Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list... it becomes a sorcerer spell for you (only, not sorcerers generally). Then, when Shadow Illusion says:
...mimic any sorcerer or wizard ... evocation spell ... you can mimic because it is a sorcerer spell for you. Critically, there is no "and" in this clause, because it is not a wizard spell for you.



Ah .. that's right, I guess. I forgot about the "and" part of the prerequisites. What item creation feat might be the best choice here?


The choice seems irrelevant since Supernatural[Wish[Psychic Reformation]] allows you to reset on any given day for free.



Without the use of Sanctum spell, it becomes kind of hard to replicate 9th level spells, though, even if the epic feat version of heighten takes care of that somewhat later on.

Which 9th level spells do you want? It seems like a lot of bother for not much gain. Keep in mind that you can purchase access to 9th level spell with a Knowstone for 81K.

I also wanted to mention a plan B, which is Sylph 3/Illusionist 3/Sorcerer 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Ultimate Magus X. Illusionist 3 qualifies you for "Theurgic Specialist" and "Enhanced Shadow Reality" (+20% real). Add in "Practiced Spellcaster[Wizard]. Ultimate Magus + Sylph + Theurgic specialist allows you to legitimately triple advance caster level. So at Ultimate Magus 3 you would have spells as a Sorcerer 20/Illusionist 11 and a caster level of Sorcerer 22/Wizard 15/Illusions 37. At Ultimate Magus 10 this becomes spells as Sorcerer 20/Illusionist 18 With caster levels of Sorcerer 33/Wizard 22/Illusions 55(!). Ultimate Magus is also a nice class to take into epic levels due to the way the Augmented Casting class feature works since eventually you'll be able to persist anything. Overall, I think Plan A makes a more interesting set of capabilities with Supernatural Spell while plan B is more of an ultimate illusionist with a bonus helping of wizard spells to shore up Sorcerer weaknesses.

[Schattenbach]

I updated the first post a bit.


When Arcane Disciple says: it becomes a sorcerer spell for you (only, not sorcerers generally). Then, when Shadow Illusion says: you can mimic because it is a sorcerer spell for you. Critically, there is no "and" in this clause, because it is not a wizard spell for you.

Thanks for clearing that up


The choice seems irrelevant since Supernatural[Wish[Psychic Reformation]] allows you to reset on any given day for free.

That's true, thanks for pointing that out as that feat could just be switched out (for any crafting feat that could be taken at the level the crafting feat was selected). Though limited wish is already enough for that and, due to much lower exp costs, can be used more freely in that regard as Supernatural Spell isn't quite necessary for that.


Which 9th level spells do you want? It seems like a lot of bother for not much gain. Keep in mind that you can purchase access to 9th level spell with a Knowstone for 81K.

To sum it up ... in addition to things likes of Foresight, Prismatic Sphere, Mage’s Disjunction and such ... there is stuff (i.e. 9th level spells that could be replicated through other means) that I would prefer to not spend gold on to make getting hit by Disjunction hit a lot less painful than it would otherwise be. Sanctum spell itself (by reducing the involved spell slot costs) isn't particulary outstanding for this build in and itself but it does allow one to get access to some 9th level things that, while quite useful in some situations (like Genesis or Summon Elemental Monolith or Gate's Planar Travel version or Black Sphere of Destruction/Black Blade of Disaster or some of the few nuke spells that's actually good), are otherwise not really good enough to keep around otherwise, what with the sorcerer's small selection of spells known to begin with.


I also wanted to mention a plan B, which is Sylph 3/Illusionist 3/Sorcerer 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Ultimate Magus X. Illusionist 3 qualifies you for "Theurgic Specialist" and "Enhanced Shadow Reality" (+20% real). Add in "Practiced Spellcaster[Wizard]. Ultimate Magus + Sylph + Theurgic specialist allows you to legitimately triple advance caster level. So at Ultimate Magus 3 you would have spells as a Sorcerer 20/Illusionist 11 and a caster level of Sorcerer 22/Wizard 15/Illusions 37. At Ultimate Magus 10 this becomes spells as Sorcerer 20/Illusionist 18 With caster levels of Sorcerer 33/Wizard 22/Illusions 55(!). Ultimate Magus is also a nice class to take into epic levels due to the way the Augmented Casting class feature works since eventually you'll be able to persist anything. Overall, I think Plan A makes a more interesting set of capabilities with Supernatural Spell while plan B is more of an ultimate illusionist with a bonus helping of wizard spells to shore up Sorcerer weaknesses.

I like that Ultimate Magus Build quite a bit ... it also plays much better to the strengths of the character than it would be when using Dweomerkeeper, as the late access to epic feats weakens the character considerably, but once epic spellcasting comes into play, Dweomerkeeper seems to completely outclass it due to Supernatural Epic Spells being just that good (or rather ... nearly as good as epic spellcasting is broken in and itself). So investing at least 4 levels into Dweomerkeeper somewhere still seems like a good idea even for the Ultimate Magus build. That reminds me ... the advantage of that ... with 2 classes reaching 9th level+ spells, the number of available epic spell slots increases accordingly ... only applies when the other half is some form of divine spellcasting (or something else that would, seperatly, qualify for epic spells) correct?

Edit: Now that I think about it ... the Ultimate Magus build suggested by you might become much more powerful by also getting access to the Destiny Domain spell list, as the stuff provided by that domain is extremely powerful and works quite well with the mechanics of Ultimate Magus.

Edit 2: ///

Edit 3: Still got several issues, though, and seems more difficult in terms of actually being put to work than the Dweomerkeeper-based one, though.

Edit 4: ... 3 Levels of Incanatrix can pull that kind of thing with a lot more ease (i.e. persisting Choose Destiny and such). Thus I removed that build part ...

[Anthrowhale]

A few comments on the updates:

(1) You don't need Word of Balance as spell known to use it, right?
(2) The L21 feat should be epic spellcasting, no?
(3) Metamagic Specialist sounds great on this build.
(4) Technically, Sanctum Spell cannot be the first metamagic feat taken.
(5) Supernatural Spell[Epic spell] is ... yeash. I guess you'll take a standard -200 DC modifier on every epic spell.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help.


A few comments on the updates:

(1) You don't need Word of Balance as spell known to use it, right?

Yeah, I forgot to cut it out of the list before the update. Thanks for pointing that out. Any suggestion about what to to fill that 7th level spell knownn slot with, as there are plenty of good options for that?


(2) The L21 feat should be epic spellcasting, no?

Should be ... but that slows down the Cosmic Descryer entry by a few levels ... though it's questionable if Cosmic Descryer is that good in this build to begin with (as its main strong point is Cosmic Connection ... often paried with Delay Death and the Heal Seed to perform pretty much any skill check ... while the rest, while useful, what with improving the level cap of the Planar Binding spells and such, as well as some other benefits that aren't bad the way they are, they also slow down the epic progression as such as it doesn't provide anything "that" outstanding until its 7th level) until quite late epic levels (30+) where things start to go downhill pretty badly in terms of game balance.

What (besides Dweomerkeeper until its 10th level capstone) to use for the first few epic levels instead? I didn't look into the epic progression of Dweomerkeeper up until now ... is it reasonably decent? Edit2: Doesn't look all that good in terms of feats ... Mantle of Spells is pretty much useless for sorcerers, after all.


(3) Metamagic Specialist sounds great on this build.

Then that it is, I guess.


(4) Technically, Sanctum Spell cannot be the first metamagic feat taken.

I somehow ended up switching that up with Heighten Spell. Thanks for pointing that out.


(5) Supernatural Spell[Epic spell] is ... yeash. I guess you'll take a standard -200 DC modifier on every epic spell.

That seems quite useful indeed. Edit: The DC reduction could actually be higher than that (at least according to some of the sample epic spells provided, some of which burn something between like 2,000 exp and 20,000 exp per epic caster/participant? ... but then again, the sample epic spells are quite often messy in the way they were created, to begin with ... what with the permanent backslash damage each round and such) while used as ritual, but then again ... ritual based epic spells are some different topic altogether.

[Anthrowhale]

Yeah, I forgot to cut it out of the list before the update. Thanks for pointing that out. Any suggestion about what to to fill that 7th level spell knownn slot with, as there are plenty of good options for that?


Simulacrum seems exceptional as a 7th level spell on this build, because you can spam fully obedient minions (of you or anyone else) using Supernatural Spell with Sorcerer 20 casting. If you can make it a reach spell and somehow get a rod of chain spell... You might want to play with the order of your classes to make Supernatural Spell or Shadow Illusion more easily available to you-minions. If you do DK 4 before SCM 5, then when you hit DK 8, you-minions achieve 1/day recursion.

Greater Planer binding seems like a 'eh' spell to me here, because it's so subject to DM interpretation. I'd drop it in favor of one of {Ghostform, Superior Invisibility, Mystic Shield, Greater Arcane Fusion}. If you drop Sanctum Spell or Eschew Materials you could pick up Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] which allows persisting L8 spells in combination with everything else. You don't seem to have a form of invisibility, so definitely pick up Superior Invisibility or Greater Invisibility.

You may want to pick up Wings of Cover, because you can't duplicate that as an immediate action.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the personal Evocation, Conjuration(creation), Conjuration(Summoning) spells that you can persist. At a glance, Dragon Breath, Fire Shield, Lightning Ring, Radiant Shield, Sonic Shield, Tail Slap, Toothed Tentacle, Wreath of Flames, Acid Sheath, Body Blaze. Other useful personal spells: Contingency, Instant Refuge, Invoke Magic and Mycontil's last resort (for minion-nukes).



What (besides Dweomerkeeper until its 10th level capstone) to use for the first few epic levels instead? I didn't look into the epic progression of Dweomerkeeper up until now ... is it reasonably decent?


It doesn't exist so it's DM-decides. I would assume continued access to Supernatural Spell and caster level increases but nothing else. Incantatrix 3 is another logical choice. A level of Mindbender allows you to pick up Telepathy which enables mindsight. Then, when you Shapechange into a Formian queen you get a 50 mile radius has-intelligence detector, a borderline deific effect.

[Schattenbach]

Simulacrum seems exceptional as a 7th level spell on this build, because you can spam fully obedient minions (of you or anyone else) using Supernatural Spell with Sorcerer 20 casting. If you can make it a reach spell and somehow get a rod of chain spell... You might want to play with the order of your classes to make Supernatural Spell or Shadow Illusion more easily available to you-minions. If you do DK 4 before SCM 5, then when you hit DK 8, you-minions achieve 1/day recursion.

Pushing it back a few levels wouldn't matter all that much, I guess. Sylph 3 + Sorcerer1(+1) / Cloistered Cleric1(+1) / Dweomerkeeper4(+4) / Shadowcraft Mage5(+5) / Dweomerkeeper10(+6) + ???

Other decent options, like Project Image or Greater Teleport and such, while highly useful, could just be put on some item (or Runestaff), I guess, while other useful stuff like Elemental Body (or Energy immunity) can be replaced by other means. So Simulacrum really seems like one of the strongest choices here.


Greater Planer binding seems like a 'eh' spell to me here, because it's so subject to DM interpretation. I'd drop it in favor of one of {Ghostform, Superior Invisibility, Mystic Shield, Greater Arcane Fusion}. If you drop Sanctum Spell or Eschew Materials you could pick up Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] which allows persisting L8 spells in combination with everything else.

Thanks for the advice; I will think about it.


You don't seem to have a form of invisibility, so definitely pick up Superior Invisibility or Greater Invisibility.

Sylphs actually get Improved Invisibility (or whatever it might've been replaced with in DnD 3.5) as at-will SLA (though I'm not quite sure at what caster level they cast it at), so that might not be necessary. Edit: According to MM2, it's Supernatural.


You may want to pick up Wings of Cover, because you can't duplicate that as an immediate action.

What 2th level spell to replace it with, though?


You might want to familiarize yourself with the personal Evocation, Conjuration(creation), Conjuration(Summoning) spells that you can persist. At a glance, Dragon Breath, Fire Shield, Lightning Ring, Radiant Shield, Sonic Shield, Tail Slap, Toothed Tentacle, Wreath of Flames, Acid Sheath, Body Blaze. Other useful personal spells: Contingency, Instant Refuge, Invoke Magic and Mycontil's last resort (for minion-nukes).

Thanks for the suggestion.


It doesn't exist so it's DM-decides. I would assume continued access to Supernatural Spell and caster level increases but nothing else.

Actually ... it does exist (as Epic Insight web article for Faiths and Pantheons) and the only things it provides are the higher number of spells to put into the Mantle of Spells as well as the usual epic bonus feats. It's quite sad, actually.


Incantatrix 3 is another logical choice.

While Incanatrix 3 does make that build much stronger by actually allowing the character to persist stuff without any trouble (though burning two feats for Alternate Source Spell to cast Arcane Spells as and Divine Metamagic to burn the mostly unused Turn Undead pool might also make things quite a bit easier, but feats is what this build lacks the most right now, isn#t it?), it doesn't really fit the character concept itself all that much.



A level of Mindbender allows you to pick up Telepathy which enables mindsight. Then, when you Shapechange into a Formian queen you get a 50 mile radius has-intelligence detector, a borderline deific effect.

One level of Mindbender seems like quite the good idea, but Mindsight eats up another feat (though its probably enough to compet with the better epic feats) and Charm Person isn't particulary ... bad ... as far as first level spells go (what to replace it with, though? Shield?), so a level of Mindbender, it is.

While talking about first level spells and such ... what 0th and 1th level Cleric spells (including those domain spells) are good enough to actually be put on the (otherwise mostly useless) Mantle of Spells?

I'm also still undecided about to choose as last 5th and 6th spell known.

[Anthrowhale]

Sylphs actually get Improved Invisibility (or whatever it might've been replaced with in DnD 3.5) as at-will SLA (though I'm not quite sure at what caster level they cast it at), so that might not be necessary. Edit: According to MM2, it's Supernatural.


Oh, that's great then. Strike Superior Invisibility off the list.



What 2th level spell to replace it with, though?


Resist Energy seems unappealing---you can easily use wealth to duplicate the effect.



Actually ... it does exist (as Epic Insight web article for Faiths and Pantheons) and the only things it provides are the higher number of spells to put into the Mantle of Spells as well as the usual epic bonus feats.

I wasn't aware, but the old DK doesn't have Supernatural Spell, so this is not the right extension for the new DK.



Divine Metamagic

You don't need this. Shapechange[Tome Dragon] + Cloak of Mysteries makes Persistent Spell into a +2 metamagic. Add a rod of extend spell for 48 hour coverage and salt to taste.



One level of Mindbender seems like quite the good idea


On second thought, I don't think you need Mindbender. Shapechange[Formian Queen] then Supernatural[Limited Wish[Psychic Reformation]] to get Mindsight. Mindsight won't work when you don't have telepathy, but you can get telepathy at will as a free action while Shapechange is up. You should get it as soon as you have Shapechange as it's amazing.



While talking about first level spells and such ... what 0th and 1th level Cleric spells (including those domain spells) are good enough to actually be put on the (otherwise mostly useless) Mantle of Spells?


Wieldskill, Lesser Vigor, Know Protections, Command?



I'm also still undecided about to choose as last 5th and 6th spell known.

I'd strongly recommend Arcane Fusion. The ability to cast two spells at once is super handy.

For a 6th level spells, it's less clear. Disintegrate? Shalantha's Delicate Disk allows you to save spells for the future. But, probably Antimagic Field is the best. Use Supernatural[Simulacrum] on a Brute-type monster, then cast AMF into a ring of spell storing, give it to the brute and let it cast AMF on itself. A loyal brute minion in an AMF can wreck magic dependent enemies.

[Anthrowhale]

I remembered that casting times impose sharp limits on Supernatural Spell. In particular, for Epic Spells, you must reduce the casting time to a standard action (+20 DC). Similarly for Simulacrum the casting time is 12 hours, so you are really only going to get there via Supernatural[Wish[Simulacrum]]. Hence, there is no value to having Simulacrum in spells known. Instead, you might consider Energy Immunity defensively and Avasculate offensively.

This greater reliance on Wish suggests that you might also prefer Repeat Spell over Twin Spell, because the Repeat Wish need not be for the same thing as the first Wish, implying significantly more versatility than Twin Spell.

Since Repeat Spell is only +3 metamagic, Shapechange[Tome Dragon] can directly cancel the metamagic costs without the need for the DK capstone.

Since you don't need the DK capstone, you could freely enter Incantatrix earlier. If you can use an Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will for 3K gp, that makes Incantatrix entry cost no feats. Even without that though the bonus feats granted by Incantatrix typically makes it a win w.r.t. feat costs. Incantatrix allows you to stop worrying about metamagic costs for a few persistent spells/day. Instead, you need to worry about spellcraft which can generally be handled via item-based access to Guidance of the Avatar (+20 Competence), Divine Insight (+15 Insight), and/or Improvisation (+caster level/2 Luck).

Overall, something like: Sylph 3/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/DK 4/SCM 3/Incantatrix 3 by ECL 20 packs in the possibilities. After that, SCM+2/Nightmare Spinner 1/DK+2 brings you up to CL 20. Then further levels in DK (supernatural spells) or Incantatrix (bonus feats + unique spell control) seem handy.

Separately, I also wanted to note that a supernatural[wish[simulacrum]] ignores the need for material components, and hence you can duplicate any creature up to caster level*2 creating a loyal minion with up to caster level HD. At ECL 20, your caster level is 30 so you can create a simulacrum of anything with up to 60 HD which is pretty much everything. Hence Simulacrum is something like a Gate spell which lasts forever and works on unique individuals, although with only 1/2 the HD.

And I calculated the damage for Mycontil's Last Resort finally: ~500 is pretty impressive.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help and sorry for the late answer.

I've updated the first post, added one alternate spell list in case the Spellpoint System is in use ... and also noticed that I've forgot about the sorcerer's 0th level spells.


Oh, that's great then. Strike Superior Invisibility off the list.

I have no idea how long that invisibility lasts, though, as it hasn't been stated in its entry.


Resist Energy seems unappealing---you can easily use wealth to duplicate the effect.

That's true.


I wasn't aware, but the old DK doesn't have Supernatural Spell, so this is not the right extension for the new DK.

Yeah ... but the fact is that there is some different progression (even if its outdated) that advances that (for sorcerers useless ... prepared castrers might love it) mantle of spells instead of Supernatural spell is still there. What would seem like an reasonable epic progression? Bonus feat at 1th, 5th, 10th, ecetera level and supernatural spell at 2th, 4th, 6th, ecetera level?


You don't need this. Shapechange[Tome Dragon] + Cloak of Mysteries makes Persistent Spell into a +2 metamagic. Add a rod of extend spell for 48 hour coverage and salt to taste.

What to do with those turn (or rebuke, which is arguably superior) attemps then? Use it to actually deal with undeads? I wonder how effective that is going to be with this character.


On second thought, I don't think you need Mindbender. Shapechange[Formian Queen] then Supernatural[Limited Wish[Psychic Reformation]] to get Mindsight. Mindsight won't work when you don't have telepathy, but you can get telepathy at will as a free action while Shapechange is up. You should get it as soon as you have Shapechange as it's amazing.

Being forced to run around Shapechanged as Formian Queen for that seems like quite the downside, at least from an RP point of view ... there are other forms that provide telepathy, too, I guess, but well ... being forced to shapechange to have access to the specialized protection that Mindsight provides (even if Shapchange is good pretty much all the time) might be a bit much ... so a level of Mindbender might be worth it for that alone.


Wieldskill, Lesser Vigor, Know Protections, Command?

Command seems a bit weak, though. Hm ... what about some of the Divination options that don't care much about only being first level (i.e. Detect Secret Door, Detect Evil, Deathwatch, Comprehend Language, ecetera)?


I'd strongly recommend Arcane Fusion. The ability to cast two spells at once is super handy.

Though without the right low level spells to use it with in combat, it's significantly weaker.


For a 6th level spells, it's less clear. Disintegrate? Shalantha's Delicate Disk allows you to save spells for the future. But, probably Antimagic Field is the best. Use Supernatural[Simulacrum] on a Brute-type monster, then cast AMF into a ring of spell storing, give it to the brute and let it cast AMF on itself. A loyal brute minion in an AMF can wreck magic dependent enemies.

Disintegrate could be replicated via Black Sphere of Destruction/Black Blade of Disaster or whatever these two are called ... Shalantha's Delicate Disk is creation, isn't it and could thus be replicated by Silent Image? Antimagic Field is kind of weak other than that, for this character ... its basically means nearly completely gimping oneself.

##################################


I remembered that casting times impose sharp limits on Supernatural Spell. In particular, for Epic Spells, you must reduce the casting time to a standard action (+20 DC).

Thanks for pointing that out. Thugh long casting times for epic spells usually are usually highly impractical, anyway, what with the DC reduction for that casting time increase usually being not all that good and epic casters could use that time for other stuff.


Similarly for Simulacrum the casting time is 12 hours, so you are really only going to get there via Supernatural[Wish[Simulacrum]].

Is it possible to chain Simulacrum that way via some Chain Spell metamagic rod?


Hence, there is no value to having Simulacrum in spells known. Instead, you might consider Energy Immunity defensively and Avasculate offensively.

It's hard to pick between the two of them, though. Avasculate Mass (the all around superior version) could just be put on some runestaff, but then it's hard to pair it with True Strike or something similiar.


This greater reliance on Wish suggests that you might also prefer Repeat Spell over Twin Spell, because the Repeat Wish need not be for the same thing as the first Wish, implying significantly more versatility than Twin Spell.

Since Repeat Spell is only +3 metamagic, Shapechange[Tome Dragon] can directly cancel the metamagic costs without the need for the DK capstone.

Thanks for the suggestion, I didn't think about that. Though in at least some cases, some uses of one Chain Spell Metamagic rod might help here, too.


Since you don't need the DK capstone, you could freely enter Incantatrix earlier. If you can use an Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will for 3K gp, that makes Incantatrix entry cost no feats. Even without that though the bonus feats granted by Incantatrix typically makes it a win w.r.t. feat costs. Incantatrix allows you to stop worrying about metamagic costs for a few persistent spells/day. Instead, you need to worry about spellcraft which can generally be handled via item-based access to Guidance of the Avatar (+20 Competence), Divine Insight (+15 Insight), and/or Improvisation (+caster level/2 Luck).

Overall, something like: Sylph 3/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/DK 4/SCM 3/Incantatrix 3 by ECL 20 packs in the possibilities. After that, SCM+2/Nightmare Spinner 1/DK+2 brings you up to CL 20. Then further levels in DK (supernatural spells) or Incantatrix (bonus feats + unique spell control) seem handy.

Thanks again for that suggestion about Incanatrix, but I would really prefer it if that build wouldn't include it (for the reasons stated in the first post), as while it does indeed make the build much stronger, Incanatrix still (even though their DnD 3.5 version is slightly different and more an metamagic specialist than anything) have the Anti-Outsider label attachet to them.


Separately, I also wanted to note that a supernatural[wish[simulacrum]] ignores the need for material components, and hence you can duplicate any creature up to caster level*2 creating a loyal minion with up to caster level HD. At ECL 20, your caster level is 30 so you can create a simulacrum of anything with up to 60 HD which is pretty much everything. Hence Simulacrum is something like a Gate spell which lasts forever and works on unique individuals, although with only 1/2 the HD.

The problem here is that it requires body parts (but those could be aquired through the use of Wish) and that its hard to pinpoint what the actual capabilities of the creatures at half those HD would've been ... if one somehow got hold of one creature that's advanced to twice its HD, then that would be less problematic (but, in some ways, more dangerous).


And I calculated the damage for Mycontil's Last Resort finally: ~500 is pretty impressive.

It's quite the solid nuke spell that could be used through, for example, some simulacrum ... but that Reflex safe makes it that much less efficient.

[Anthrowhale]

I have no idea how long that invisibility lasts, though, as it hasn't been stated in its entry.

The generic Supernatural rules apply. Standard action activation and caster level = HD.



What would seem like an reasonable epic progression?

Mantle of spells every odd level, Supernatural Spell every even level, full casting advancement, and a bonus feat every _n_ levels where _n_ is determined by the DM.



What to do with those turn (or rebuke, which is arguably superior) attemps then? Use it to actually deal with undeads? I wonder how effective that is going to be with this character.

Well, if you don't want to go with Incantatrix, that suggests DMM[Persist] indeed, using the mentioned tricks to reduce the costs.



Being forced to run around Shapechanged as Formian Queen for that seems like quite the downside, at least from an RP point of view ...


It's your priority, but note that (a) Shapechange is a free action every round (b) Draconic Polymorph[Sylph] turns you into a sylph with +8 Str and +2 Con while preserving Supernatural Abilities and being persistable. So, if you Shapechange[Formian Queen] then Draconic Polymorph[Sylph] you can run around as a Sylph with 50 mile int-dar. Note that if you use Shapechange after that, it will override the Draconic Polymorph.



Command seems a bit weak, though. Hm ... what about some of the Divination options that don't care much about only being first level (i.e. Detect Secret Door, Detect Evil, Deathwatch, Comprehend Language, ecetera)?

These seem reasonable.



Though without the right low level spells to use it with in combat, it's significantly weaker.


You have Truestrike and every L4- Conjuration[creation] or Evocation spell.



Antimagic Field is kind of weak other than that, for this character ... its basically means nearly completely gimping oneself.


AMF is not for you---it's for minions. There are some dangerous magic-based monsters that are shutdown by the right choice of minion with AMF.



Is it possible to chain Simulacrum that way via some Chain Spell metamagic rod?


If you get DK 10, then maybe yes as Reach Simulacrum is an 8th level spell. Or maybe no if the DM decides to be superstrict about spell duplication vs. metamagic spell duplication.



The problem here is that it requires body parts (but those could be aquired through the use of Wish) and that its hard to pinpoint what the actual capabilities of the creatures at half those HD would've been ... if one somehow got hold of one creature that's advanced to twice its HD, then that would be less problematic (but, in some ways, more dangerous).


You don't need body parts because that's part of the material component stripped by Supernatural Spell. Using advanced by 2x or more creatures is a good idea for simplicity.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help.


The generic Supernatural rules apply. Standard action activation and caster level = HD.

That's great. Thanks for clearing that up.


Mantle of spells every odd level, Supernatural Spell every even level, full casting advancement, and a bonus feat every _n_ levels where _n_ is determined by the DM.

The mantle of spells doesn't seem particulary necessary ... other classes would probably be quite happy about it also progressing further, though.


Well, if you don't want to go with Incantatrix, that suggests DMM[Persist] indeed, using the mentioned tricks to reduce the costs.

Though there isn't enough room for that preepic, anyway.


It's your priority, but note that (a) Shapechange is a free action every round (b) Draconic Polymorph[Sylph] turns you into a sylph with +8 Str and +2 Con while preserving Supernatural Abilities and being persistable. So, if you Shapechange[Formian Queen] then Draconic Polymorph[Sylph] you can run around as a Sylph with 50 mile int-dar. Note that if you use Shapechange after that, it will override the Draconic Polymorph.

Seems promising despite the pitfalls involved. It might still be easier (and cheaper, if taking a dip in something that doesn't progress casting would normally considered to be cheap, that is) to simply take that Mindbender dip, though.


You have Truestrike and every L4- Conjuration[creation] or Evocation spell.

That's right, I was just comparing it to the usual metanagic-fueled Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion Incanatrix blasting (or debuffing ... in case of Enveration), but even without that, the options at hand for 4th level and below are still plenty strong, I guess.


AMF is not for you---it's for minions. There are some dangerous magic-based monsters that are shutdown by the right choice of minion with AMF.

In that case, though, it would be easier to get the Antimagic Field on some Runestaff/Staff or the like instead.


If you get DK 10, then maybe yes as Reach Simulacrum is an 8th level spell. Or maybe no if the DM decides to be superstrict about spell duplication vs. metamagic spell duplication.

Interestingly, the range# of Simulacrum isn't "Touch" but the nonstandard category of "0 feet" (which, more or less is touch when it comes down to it but at the same time, it isn't), isn't it?


You don't need body parts because that's part of the material component stripped by Supernatural Spell.

I forgot about those body parts specificially being spelled out as material component. Problem solved, then.


Using advanced by 2x or more creatures is a good idea for simplicity.

I thought so, too ... the size increase of the scaled up hypothetical original (that may or may not have existed somewhen somewhere?) that often happens once RHD are increased past specific tresholds (according to that creature's advancement table) could be ignored here, unless it's about some specific individual, right?

Four additional things to think about ... one of them is Runestaff related ... what Corrupt Spells (and other things like that that spontaneous casters are unable to cast) to put on runestaves? Death by Thorns seems extremly useful ... so one combat based runestaff with something like ... Prismatic Sphere, Gate? (or Foresight), Avasculate Mass (or Maze), Death by Thorns and Project Imagine ... seems reasonably useful in terms of covering offensive and defensive combat needs that aren't already taken care of through the spells known list. While one utility runestaff for covering things done in some save location ... with things like Greater Planar Binding, Fey Ring and other useful stuff, doesn't look like it's ... bad or anything, either. The lack of direct access to Greater Teleport would be somewhat irritating, though, even if emergency (safe long range) transportation could also be dealt with through one Supernatural Wish.

The second thing to think about What's the upper limit of creating/improving magic items through (Supernatural) Wish? There's a list for the max value of nonmagical items, but as for magical items, besides their doubeled exp costs in addition to the cost of wish, there isn't any stated upper limit as far as I could tell.

The third thing to think about is when to take these two prc dips that don#t progress casting (i.e. Mindbender and Nightmare Spinner ... though it's questionable if Nightmare Spinner is going to do all that much later on).

The fourth thing to think about is what feats to take at epic levels (besides Epic Spellcasting ... as well as, eventually, those feat tax requirments for Cosmic Descryer). Improved Heighten Spell seems kind of unnecessary with Sanctum spell around ... maybe taking Spell Knowledge once to deal with the Shortage of Spelld known? ... what else ... things that provide access to Divine Metamagic? ... Improved Spell Capacity seems like quite the obvious standard choice to fill in the blanks ... maybe one of the better epic staff or wand related feats, too? Eventually trying to get access to the Destiny Domain spell list (or rather ... some of its excellent spells) seems like it's also worthy of some consideration ...

[Anthrowhale]

Though there isn't enough room for that preepic, anyway.


I agree. You need DMM(Persist), Alternative Source Spell, and Arcane Preparation, which seems to expensive to consider. There seems to be no good use for Turn Undead.



That's right, I was just comparing it to the usual metanagic-fueled Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion Incanatrix blasting (or debuffing ... in case of Enveration), but even without that, the options at hand for 4th level and below are still plenty strong, I guess.


Since you are not using Incantatrix, reaching DK 10 is feasible by a reasonable level leaving Supernatural Twin Wish[Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Limited Wish[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin L4, Twin L1]],Twin L1]] a possibility.



Interestingly, the range# of Simulacrum isn't "Touch" but the nonstandard category of "0 feet" (which, more or less is touch when it comes down to it but at the same time, it isn't), isn't it?


I can't convince myself that 0 ft is a "range greater than touch" which is needed for chain spell.



I thought so, too ... the size increase of the scaled up hypothetical original (that may or may not have existed somewhen somewhere?) that often happens once RHD are increased past specific tresholds (according to that creature's advancement table) could be ignored here, unless it's about some specific individual, right?


Technically no, but in practice I expect a DM would be fine with that.



Four additional things to think about ... one of them is Runestaff related ... what Corrupt Spells (and other things like that that spontaneous casters are unable to cast) to put on runestaves? Death by Thorns seems extremly useful ... so one combat based runestaff with something like ... Prismatic Sphere, Gate? (or Foresight), Avasculate Mass (or Maze), Death by Thorns and Project Imagine ... seems reasonably useful in terms of covering offensive and defensive combat needs that aren't already taken care of through the spells known list. While one utility runestaff for covering things done in some save location ... with things like Greater Planar Binding, Fey Ring and other useful stuff, doesn't look like it's ... bad or anything, either. The lack of direct access to Greater Teleport would be somewhat irritating, though, even if emergency (safe long range) transportation could also be dealt with through one Supernatural Wish.


If you have access to 9th level Conjuration[Creation] spells, then you can use Gate twice to go anywhere you want. Prismatic Sphere also seems iffy to me in the sense that you have plenty of barrier spells via Conjuration[Creation]. Foresight is awesome. Death by Thorns has wisdom drain and a weirdo touch-but-not-touch range asking for DM intervention, so Maze seems better. Project Image is ok, but I wouldn't want to use it without allies/minions to watch my back and if you have you-minions and 50 mile int-dar the minions seem probably more effective anyways as they can teleport, cast any spell, and not be in line of effect.

Since metamagic works with a Runestaff, I still think you should consider Ghostform and possibly Mystic Shield. Immune to all mundane sources of damage is pretty nice and it complements your built-in invisibility. When entering an object, int-dar should still work as there is no line of effect constraint on your telepathy, so you could be out of line of effect, but still directing what goes on.

Mystic Shield is more expensive but the immunity to L6- spells is nice. As an alternative, you might consider Otiluke's Suppressing Field + Arcane Mastery which would allow you to create a field that zeros out individual schools of magic cast by lower level casters around you. OSF works on higher level spells, but not high level spellcasters. Since your caster level is elevated, it's a reasonable choice (also, persistable).



The second thing to think about What's the upper limit of creating/improving magic items through (Supernatural) Wish? There's a list for the max value of nonmagical items, but as for magical items, besides their doubeled exp costs in addition to the cost of wish, there isn't any stated upper limit as far as I could tell.


I would assume that epic items are out as is anything which requires more XP than your level would allow. A DK with Wish can easily break the game with wealth. I'd recommend voluntarily and consciously avoiding exceeding WBL guidelines.



The third thing to think about is when to take these two prc dips that don#t progress casting (i.e. Mindbender and Nightmare Spinner ... though it's questionable if Nightmare Spinner is going to do all that much later on).


Mindbender 1 does progress spellcasting. The bonus spells for Nightmare spinner are ok but fundamentally optional... I'd probably go for DK 10 sooner.



The fourth thing to think about is what feats to take at epic levels (besides Epic Spellcasting ... as well as, eventually, those feat tax requirments for Cosmic Descryer). Improved Heighten Spell seems kind of unnecessary with Sanctum spell around ... maybe taking Spell Knowledge once to deal with the Shortage of Spelld known? ... what else ... things that provide access to Divine Metamagic? ... Improved Spell Capacity seems like quite the obvious standard choice to fill in the blanks ... maybe one of the better epic staff or wand related feats, too? Eventually trying to get access to the Destiny Domain spell list (or rather ... some of its excellent spells) seems like it's also worthy of some consideration ...

Spell Knowledge seems like a waste to me given that you can buy/create Knowstones instead. Master Staff seems ok although it fixes your metamagic feat to Craft Staff for use. Improved spell capacity seems nice. Improved Heighten Spell seems better than Sanctum Spell to me, and you can always Supernatural[Limited Wish[Psychic Reformation]] to scavenge the Sanctum Spell slot for another use. Improved Metamagic is also potentially useful, although note that Easy Metamagic[Dragon #325] is pre-epic.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help.


Since you are not using Incantatrix, reaching DK 10 is feasible by a reasonable level leaving Supernatural Twin Wish[Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Limited Wish[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin L4, Twin L1]],Twin L1]] a possibility.

Sylph 3 / Sorc1 / Cloistered Cleric1 / DK 4 / SCM 5 / Mindbender1 / DK to 10 / Epic DK 6+ would mean that, if I didn't miss anything, that becomes available somewhere during the mid-twenties?


I can't convince myself that 0 ft is a "range greater than touch" which is needed for chain spell.

That requires quite a bit of creative raw reading, I guess.


Technically no, but in practice I expect a DM would be fine with that.

That size increase is irritating to begin with, anyway. Sure, it makes those creatures better grapplers, ectera, but otherwise it causes plenty of practical issues.


If you have access to 9th level Conjuration[Creation] spells, then you can use Gate twice to go anywhere you want. Prismatic Sphere also seems iffy to me in the sense that you have plenty of barrier spells via Conjuration[Creation]. Foresight is awesome. Death by Thorns has wisdom drain and a weirdo touch-but-not-touch range asking for DM intervention, so Maze seems better. Project Image is ok, but I wouldn't want to use it without allies/minions to watch my back and if you have you-minions and 50 mile int-dar the minions seem probably more effective anyways as they can teleport, cast any spell, and not be in line of effect.

Gate is for Gating in something to deal with stuff that would otherwise be hard to deal with, as the Planar Travel version replicated through Silent Image shouldn't be able to do that. ...


Since metamagic works with a Runestaff, I still think you should consider Ghostform and possibly Mystic Shield. Immune to all mundane sources of damage is pretty nice and it complements your built-in invisibility. When entering an object, int-dar should still work as there is no line of effect constraint on your telepathy, so you could be out of line of effect, but still directing what goes on.

Ghostform seems like an excellent suggestion.


Mystic Shield is more expensive but the immunity to L6- spells is nice. As an alternative, you might consider Otiluke's Suppressing Field + Arcane Mastery which would allow you to create a field that zeros out individual schools of magic cast by lower level casters around you. OSF works on higher level spells, but not high level spellcasters. Since your caster level is elevated, it's a reasonable choice (also, persistable).

Could Otiluke's Suppressing Field be used to block Disjunction, too? If so, it would become much more useful than it already is.

So on that runestaff ... Foresight, Maze, Avasculate Mass?, Ghostform and something else ... Otiluke's Suppressing Field or Greater Teleport or some other spell ...

... hm ... stuff like Maw of Chaos or Replicate Casting provide some situational utility, but I#m not quite sure that they're worth it.


I would assume that epic items are out as is anything which requires more XP than your level would allow. A DK with Wish can easily break the game with wealth. I'd recommend voluntarily and consciously avoiding exceeding WBL guidelines.

Thanks for the suggestion ... so they actually didn't set some specific limit in terms of gp value ... hm ... breaking WBL is - especially in Sandbox settings where there's plenty of time to do stuff - too easy in general, though, anyway, so no need to use supernatural wish for that.


Mindbender 1 does progress spellcasting. The bonus spells for Nightmare spinner are ok but fundamentally optional... I'd probably go for DK 10 sooner.

Ah ... I mixed that up with the first level Sandshaper/Nightmare Spinner/Void Disciple (and all those other classes that either don't advance casting at first level). I guess I should edit the first post accordingly (as the caster level at level 15 is thus not 29 but 30 instead).


Spell Knowledge seems like a waste to me given that you can buy/create Knowstones instead. Master Staff seems ok although it fixes your metamagic feat to Craft Staff for use. Improved spell capacity seems nice.

It sucks that it requires one additional crafting feat ...


Improved Heighten Spell seems better than Sanctum Spell to me, and you can always Supernatural[Limited Wish[Psychic Reformation]] to scavenge the Sanctum Spell slot for another use.

That's true, but until there are plenty spell slots beyond 9th level, it shouldn't see all that much use and until then, Sanctum spell's side job of keeping the cost of those heightened silent images down might still be enough to prevent it from being too outclassed.


Improved Metamagic is also potentially useful, although note that Easy Metamagic[Dragon #325] is pre-epic.

There isn't much space for Easy Metamagic pre-epic, so Improved Metamagic might do just fine.

[Anthrowhale]

Sylph 3 / Sorc1 / Cloistered Cleric1 / DK 4 / SCM 5 / Mindbender1 / DK to 10 / Epic DK 6+ would mean that, if I didn't miss anything, that becomes available somewhere during the mid-twenties?


Or earlier with Shapechange[Tome Dragon].



Gate is for Gating in something to deal with stuff that would otherwise be hard to deal with, as the Planar Travel version replicated through Silent Image shouldn't be able to do that. ...


You can't do Silent Image[Gate[Calling]], but you can do Silent Image[Gate[Creation]]. Gate[Creation] is the Planar Travel version while Gate[Calling] is the Gating-something-in version.



Could Otiluke's Suppressing Field be used to block Disjunction, too? If so, it would become much more useful than it already is.


Plausibly yes but the exact precedence of effects has only ambiguous resolution as far as I now.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help.


You can't do Silent Image[Gate[Calling]], but you can do Silent Image[Gate[Creation]]. Gate[Creation] is the Planar Travel version while Gate[Calling] is the Gating-something-in version.

I know, I was actually refering to that Calling function of Gate, so sorry if there was some misunderstanding going on about that. Caster level 29/30 is enough to gate in something like some Old Prismatic Dragon (stated 58 HD version is there after all and if it isn't abused or anything, it shouldn't hold any significant grude in particular) or some Hecatoncheires (some other Abomination might also work, but plenty of them CAN teleport and do look like they would seek revenge ... or, like the Dream Larva, have their irritating side effects) to deal with specific in-combat issues.


Plausibly yes but the exact precedence of effects has only ambiguous resolution as far as I now.

As the wording is - for the most part - the same as Disjunction, it might work ... what it boils down to is if Disjunction could somehow erase it while it supresses the effect of such spells cast within (or into) its area of effect, i.e., what happens once Disjunction hits the boundary (as Disjunction has no specific wording that allows it to break through it on some minor chance, as it is the case with the antimagic field, it shouldn't be able to break through it that easily if it cannot directly affect it without having to make that caster level check). Without Arcane Mastery, it could also potentially affect some important buffs when used that way, like Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement, right?

Correction for something about, it seems like I was slightly tired as I rechecked Improved Invisibility ... it's not (Su) but (Sp). Still lasts equal to caster level = HD, though, so there isn't much of an issue.

About something else ... do two levels of Divine Oracle seem worthwhile enough to replace two levels of Epic Dweomerkeeper with it?

Was there some erreta that I missed that changed the Sylph's Animal Empathy class skill into something else in DnD 3.5? If not, what would seem suiteable to replace it with (the Sylph lacks Knowledge Arcane and Spellcraft ... giving it Spellcraft seems like the most reasonable approach here in terms of optimizaton, which also seems reasonable due to its magical nature)?

[Anthrowhale]

... gate in something like some Old Prismatic Dragon (stated 58 HD version is there after all ...


This can work, but you need to spell on your spell list, you need to use Supernatural Spell to avoid the XP costs, and you need to use an action to cast in combat, all of which are precious resources.

The Simulacrum approach gives you somewhat weaker monsters that are precast without additions to your spells known while using an otherwise unused Supernatural Spell.



As the wording is - for the most part - the same as Disjunction, it might work ... what it boils down to is if Disjunction could somehow erase it while it supresses the effect of such spells cast within (or into) its area of effect, i.e., what happens once Disjunction hits the boundary (as Disjunction has no specific wording that allows it to break through it on some minor chance, as it is the case with the antimagic field, it shouldn't be able to break through it that easily if it cannot directly affect it without having to make that caster level check).


This was discussed once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?398518-Disjunction-vs-Otiluke-s-Suppressing-Field).



Without Arcane Mastery, it could also potentially affect some important buffs when used that way, like Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement, right?


Yes, unless you used a significantly lower level. Even then OSF[Abjuration] has a 50% of self-suppression.



... Improved Invisibility ... it's not (Su) but (Sp). Still lasts equal to caster level = HD, though, so there isn't much of an issue.


So, OSF[Illusion] would suppress it. Luckily, you can use True Seeing does most of what you want instead.



About something else ... do two levels of Divine Oracle seem worthwhile enough to replace two levels of Epic Dweomerkeeper with it?


Prescient Sense vs. 20% more Supernatural Spell? It's certainly a good tradeoff in some situations. I think it depends on play style, so you might decide later. Remember that a Ring of Evasion is a thing.



Was there some erreta that I missed that changed the Sylph's Animal Empathy class skill into something else in DnD 3.5?


The official update is here (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a). Unfortunately, no K[Arcana] or Spellcraft.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help.


This can work, but you need to spell on your spell list, you need to use Supernatural Spell to avoid the XP costs, and you need to use an action to cast in combat, all of which are precious resources.

1000 XP and one slot on the runestaff would still be a reasonably cheap price to pay for some big emergency solution ... but well, putting it on some scroll would work as well.


This was discussed once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?398518-Disjunction-vs-Otiluke-s-Suppressing-Field).

Thanks for the link. I guess there really isn#t much of an clear consensus about this issue. Hm ... would - eventually - some permanent epic Warding spell - that's specific about blocking Disjunction - work?


Yes, unless you used a significantly lower level. Even then OSF[Abjuration] has a 50% of self-suppression.

That's quite troublesome.


So, OSF[Illusion] would suppress it. Luckily, you can use True Seeing does most of what you want instead.

Supernatural? See Invisibility + Permanency is one option as well (when it comes to Invisibility) that's a lot easier to use than repeatly using True Seeing and the At-Will Arcane Sight (for however long that concentration lasts) from Dweomerkeeper also helps to detect strange stuff or anomalies to some degree. ((Edit: But permanent item-based true seeing is quite cheap and, as you#ve already said, item-based true seeing is recommended anyway, so that is only some issue if the item is, for some reason, not equiped right now))


Prescient Sense vs. 20% more Supernatural Spell? It's certainly a good tradeoff in some situations. I think it depends on play style, so you might decide later. Remember that a Ring of Evasion is a thing.

Thanks for the advice. The trade of is actually also ... Oracle Domain (that could be substituted for something useful I guess ... Pride Domain is quite nice, I guess ... though while taking Dweomerkeeper levels, the Knowledge Domain could be substituted for the Pride Domain, anyway, as the Dweomerkeeper should have all knowledge skills if I didn't miss something) and some slight improved Divination DC vs. better class skills, one potential epic bonus feat more (as, depending on bonus feat progression, those two levels might provide one bonus feat, I guess), no need to invest some feat in Spellfocus: Religion and, maybe, also one more spell for the Mantle of Spells.

About the Ring of Evasion ... that eats up one additional ring item slot and isn't Extraordinary Evasion, still less expensive than investing into Divine Oracle, though, so I think it leans at least slightly towards taking Dweomerkeeper instead.


The official update is here (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a). Unfortunately, no K[Arcana] or Spellcraft.

Ah ... thanks for the link. Too bad it isn't one of the two ... those class skills are still much better (and more numerous) than the ones of the original MM2 version and Wild Empathy is provided for free (which isn't bad and has some indirect synergy with Diplomancy that Cloistered Cleric, Dweomerkeeper and Mindbender (as well as Cosmic Descryer, I guess) provide as class skill).


Some other issues ...

When using the Spell Point System for Spontaneous Casters, would they still need Arcane Prepartion to use Pearls of Power, the Vest of the Archmagi and such, that allow to recover spell points, or is that unnecessary, then?

When would be the best time to get inherent boni to ability scores (Cha and Int in particular)?

Would a precreated (as that several months or even years to reach respectable size) and expanded Demiplane (for example .... 4x Genesis use) be included in the WBL (or could otherwise deemed to be one use of wealth, i.e. at least around 100,000 gp ... + whatever stuff was put in place that has significant value?)?

[Anthrowhale]

1000 XP and one slot on the runestaff would still be a reasonably cheap price to pay for some big emergency solution ... but well, putting it on some scroll would work as well.


You would need to craft such scrolls as otherwise the caster level would not be that high.



Hm ... would - eventually - some permanent epic Warding spell - that's specific about blocking Disjunction - work?


This seems like a DM adjudication thing.



Supernatural?


Using a feat for Supernatural Transformation seems expensive. Supernatural spell does not work on a SLA. Invisibility can only be made permanent on objects. Just not using OSF[Illusion] seems the easiest.



About the Ring of Evasion ... that eats up one additional ring item slot and isn't Extraordinary Evasion, still less expensive than investing into Divine Oracle, though, so I think it leans at least slightly towards taking Dweomerkeeper instead.


Remember that you can combine deflect+5 with evasion as per the end of Magic Item Compendium.



When using the Spell Point System for Spontaneous Casters, would they still need Arcane Prepartion to use Pearls of Power, the Vest of the Archmagi and such, that allow to recover spell points, or is that unnecessary, then?


I'm thinking "yes".



When would be the best time to get inherent boni to ability scores (Cha and Int in particular)?


Inherent bonus to Int should generally be taken as early as possible to maximize skill points. That means ECL 16 or 17.



Would a precreated (as that several months or even years to reach respectable size) and expanded Demiplane (for example .... 4x Genesis use) be included in the WBL (or could otherwise deemed to be one use of wealth, i.e. at least around 100,000 gp ... + whatever stuff was put in place that has significant value?)?

I would count it towards wealth. Not also that Supernatural Spell cannot apply directly Genesis without some significant additional effort to reduce casting time. One approach: Uncanny Forethought, which requires Spell Mastery, which requires Wizard 1.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help.


You would need to craft such scrolls as otherwise the caster level would not be that high.

Crafting them or create them through wish seems both feasible ... there isn't much of a reason to not create scrolls as sorcerer anyway, besides the fact that they're expensive and that staffs and such could potentialy be more feasible. I remember something about there being eternal scrolls, too ... where are they from again? Was it Eberron?


Using a feat for Supernatural Transformation seems expensive. Supernatural spell does not work on a SLA. Invisibility can only be made permanent on objects. Just not using OSF[Illusion] seems the easiest.

Item-based True Seeing (or see permanent See Invisibility + Arcane Sight at will to check out suspicious stuff) would make OSF[Illusion] pretty rendundant, anyway.


Remember that you can combine deflect+5 with evasion as per the end of Magic Item Compendium.

I didn't think about that ... true, that would make it slightly more useful. Would improving it via Wish later on work as well?


I'm thinking "yes".

So the feat still seems necessary (if I didn't misunderstood you here)? Would it be worth it in this case (as directly restoring spellpoints is much more useful than what Pearls of Power would otherwise provide for sorcerers) to use up one feat for that?



Inherent bonus to Int should generally be taken as early as possible to maximize skill points. That means ECL 16 or 17.

Earlier isn't possible due to WBL restrictions? Though as the WBL should already be plenty high at those levels, that shouldn't be it, right? Supernatural Wish would be viable earlier than that. Int seems like one of the few ability scores for getting inherent boni of only +4 seems like its not much of an issue (expect for ability damage/drain) when the starting values where even to begin with.


I would count it towards wealth. Not also that Supernatural Spell cannot apply directly Genesis without some significant additional effort to reduce casting time. One approach: Uncanny Forethought, which requires Spell Mastery, which requires Wizard 1.

Thanks for the advice. Wizard levels cannot be swapped out, though, so that wouldn#t be worth it ... to as part of the background wealth, it is.

What skills (besides concentration, spellcraft, knowledge arcane, diplomancy and prc prerequisite skills) seem like good choices to invest in (or to invest in to at least an limited degree, like Tumble, Balance, Autohypnosis, Heal, ecetera, that provide somewhat decent benefits for minor investment)?

[Anthrowhale]

Crafting them or create them through wish seems both feasible ... there isn't much of a reason to not create scrolls as sorcerer anyway, besides the fact that they're expensive and that staffs and such could potentialy be more feasible. I remember something about there being eternal scrolls, too ... where are they from again? Was it Eberron?


Wishing for a scroll does seem good. I don't know about eternal scrolls but there are eternal wands.



I didn't think about that ... true, that would make it slightly more useful. Would improving it via Wish later on work as well?


It should---improving magic items is a part of the rules.



So the feat still seems necessary (if I didn't misunderstood you here)? Would it be worth it in this case (as directly restoring spellpoints is much more useful than what Pearls of Power would otherwise provide for sorcerers) to use up one feat for that?


I'm not sure. Extra spellcasting ability is nice, but it doesn't seem super necessary. You can get much more extra spellcasting ability from a Supernatural[Simulacrum[you]].



Earlier isn't possible due to WBL restrictions? Though as the WBL should already be plenty high at those levels, that shouldn't be it, right? Supernatural Wish would be viable earlier than that. Int seems like one of the few ability scores for getting inherent boni of only +4 seems like its not much of an issue (expect for ability damage/drain) when the starting values where even to begin with.


It's a good point that you only need Int+4(inherent) and that you can cast it yourself. Generally, you aren't supposed to spend more than 1/2 WBL on a single thing. At ECL 14 you get the first Supernatural Spell and L9 spell, which could be wish. So, you could get Int+2 at ECL 14 via Shapechange[Tome Dragon] and Supernatural[Repeat Wish]. So, at ECL 14, you can get +2 inherent to Int (with an implied WBL cost of ~50K), then at ECL 15, you buy two scrolls of wish, use them, then cap it off with Supernatural[Repeat Wish] for Int+4 (and an implied WBL cost of ~100K).



What skills (besides concentration, spellcraft, knowledge arcane, diplomancy and prc prerequisite skills) seem like good choices to invest in (or to invest in to at least an limited degree, like Tumble, Balance, Autohypnosis, Heal, ecetera, that provide somewhat decent benefits for minor investment)?

Tumble is pretty nice. Balance seems meaningless with flight. Autohypnosis is ok. There are a number of skills which are trained-only so investing a point in them allows you to use them with skill-boosting spells in the worst case.

[Schattenbach]

Sorry for the late answer and thanks for the help.

I've updated the non-spoilered text in the first post. Important changes have been bolded.

Arcane Disciple (Luck) does seem much more powerful than Arcane Disciple (Balance), but has the downside of being more expensive to use (i.e. Miracle ... and the need for Sanctum Spell, but as Sanctum Spell has been part of the build for a while now to begin with, it isn#t all that bad) as well as the downside of Miracle-replicated Word of Balance being potentially dependend on the whims of the deity (edit: though in emergency, could there be some option to replicate it by some other means?). There's also the issue with deities (or a host of deities) only being capable of possessing (or, in case of one group of deities, providing) one limited set of domains.

Analyze Dweomer has been added to save up quite a bit of trouble (and to not get screwed over by cursed items, as some of those - like Scarab of Death - just instantly screw the character over ((Edit: ... though it might be more cost efficient to simply put that on some wand, as it's something for out-of-combat usage, anyway)) ...), though I#m still not sure about the 0th, 3th and 6th level spell selection.


Wishing for a scroll does seem good. I don't know about eternal scrolls but there are eternal wands.

Thanks. Maybe I will remember eventually what source (if there's any and I'm not just misremembering things) they're found in.


It should---improving magic items is a part of the rules.

Then that saves quite a bit of trouble.


I'm not sure. Extra spellcasting ability is nice, but it doesn't seem super necessary. You can get much more extra spellcasting ability from a Supernatural[Simulacrum[you]].

It also conflicts with other (epic) feats ... hm ... about feats ... would Arcane Disciple (Luck) - if the character keeps Arcane Disciple (Balance) - or some Reserve feats (or feats that increase the caster level cap of spells in general) be worth the trouble here?


It's a good point that you only need Int+4(inherent) and that you can cast it yourself. Generally, you aren't supposed to spend more than 1/2 WBL on a single thing. At ECL 14 you get the first Supernatural Spell and L9 spell, which could be wish. So, you could get Int+2 at ECL 14 via Shapechange[Tome Dragon] and Supernatural[Repeat Wish]. So, at ECL 14, you can get +2 inherent to Int (with an implied WBL cost of ~50K), then at ECL 15, you buy two scrolls of wish, use them, then cap it off with Supernatural[Repeat Wish] for Int+4 (and an implied WBL cost of ~100K).

Thanks for the help.


Tumble is pretty nice. Balance seems meaningless with flight. Autohypnosis is ok. There are a number of skills which are trained-only so investing a point in them allows you to use them with skill-boosting spells in the worst case.

Bluff (with added buffs to make it even more powerful) seems useful, too, though it conflicts a bit with diplomancy and isn't a class skill for plenty of levels ... Use Magic Device is a cross-class skill for pretty much every level, isn't it (or did I miss something here)? That's a bit sad. Any (cross-class) skills in particular that you would recommend to invest at least a little bit of points in?