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Person_Man
2007-07-18, 10:49 AM
The Grapple special attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple). Confusing and situational. But I smell potential.

Complete Champion Bear Totem Barbarian variant: Lose Fast Movement, gain the Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) ability. Now whenever you make a successful attack, you get a free Grapple attempt, though it only works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than you.

Knifefighter: Feat from Player's Guide to Faerun: You can use a light weapon to attack your opponent in a grapple with no penalty on the attack roll. In addition, you need not win a grapple check to draw a light weapon while grappling, although you still must use a move action to do so. If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you can make a full attack with a light weapon while grappling, provided that you already have your weapon drawn.

Unarmed Strikes are light weapons, are always drawn, that also qualify for Power Attack.

The combo is simple. Make an Improved Unarmed Combat Barbarian build, like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2891887). Be a Goliath (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5) or Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm), for the Powerful Build ability, so that you count as a Large size and can use your Improved Grab ability against Medium enemies. A Barbarian/Psychic Warrior build with Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) would be great as well. But if you do that, I'd suggest being a Half-Giant anyway.

Hit your enemy with Improved Unarmed Strike. Deal your unarmed damage. Get free Grapple check. If you win, you deal your unarmed damage again. You're now "Grappling," and so is your opponent. You can finish off your full attack against the enemy thanks to Knifefighter (which you could have done anyway with your Improved Grab ability if you were willing to accept a -20 penalty to your Grapple Check). And unless your enemy is also an unarmed grapple build, his actions are extremely limited, and he will probably soon be dead, assuming you didn't kill him with your first (essentially double damage) attack or iterative attacks already.

Plus, your enemy loses his Dex bonus while Grappling, making him a lot easier to hit, and subject to Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Mind (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) Cripple (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5), Crippling Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm), etc.

And it works as early as ECL 2 (first level Goliath Barbarian with +1 LA, or a Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion).

Fun, useful, playable at low levels, strong but not game breaking, and relatively simple once you learn the Grapple rules.

The only real downside is the Knifefighter is a campaign specific regional feat that obviously requires special DM approval. But that's really not a huge barrier unless your DM is a jerk or is running a very low powered game.

Suggestions? Build ideas?

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-18, 11:12 AM
Just remember that your enemy only loses Dex bonus to everyone except those grappling him. Unless you go with the Multigrab option(well, Multigrab reduces the penalty), whereby you choose to take a -20 penalty to not count as grappled while grappling(-5 or 10 with Multigrab, and another reduction in the penalty with Improved Multigrab).

That being said, go with the feats in Lords of Madness, get some of them Grappling Tentacles from Fiend Folio.

lord_khaine
2007-07-18, 11:15 AM
well i personaly prefer some lvs of monk for my grapple builds, but besides that if you allready are a psycic warrior then a lot of fun can be had with the claws of the beast power.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-18, 11:38 AM
The combo is simple. Make an Improved Unarmed Combat Barbarian build, like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2891887). Be a Goliath (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5) or Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm), for the Powerful Build ability, so that you count as a Large size and can use your Improved Grab ability against Medium enemies. A Barbarian/Psychic Warrior build with Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) would be great as well. But if you do that, I'd suggest being a Half-Giant anyway.


I like your ideas, but the Powerful Build quality might not work for Improved Grab medium vs. medium.


Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.


The creature is only considered larger for the purpose of special abilities affecting him, not abilities he is using.

Tormsskull
2007-07-18, 12:39 PM
The only real downside is the Knifefighter is a campaign specific regional feat that obviously requires special DM approval. But that's really not a huge barrier unless your DM is a jerk or is running a very low powered game.


I'm not familiar with Knifefighter feat, but your language is awfully antagonistic. You could have just said "Knifefighter is a campaign specific regional feat from [x book], which is of course subject to DM approval."

lord_khaine
2007-07-18, 03:55 PM
it is actualy mentioned in the description that it works in grapple


Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-18, 04:23 PM
it is actualy mentioned in the description that it works in grapple

Yes, everyone (in this thread at least) agrees about that.

We were talking about the Improved Grab special ability that allows a creature to start a grapple as a free action on a melee hit with its natural weapon against an opponent of a smaller size category.

That has nothing to do with opposed check, which was the part you were referencing.


Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

(My emphasis)

Person_Man
2007-07-18, 04:40 PM
I'm not familiar with Knifefighter feat, but your language is awfully antagonistic. You could have just said "Knifefighter is a campaign specific regional feat from [x book], which is of course subject to DM approval."

Knifefighter is from Player's Guide to Faerun. In order to take it, your PC has to have a background from a specific list of races that come from a specific list of regions, such as a Human from the Sword Coast. Player's Guide to Faerun was published before Races of Stone. WotC acknowledges this and suggests regions for Goliaths in Faerun, but doesn't require it. If your DM isn't playing in the Forgotten Realms, or doesn't allow Goliaths or Half-Giants in this world, or he won't allow Goliaths to take Knifefighter because it doesn't explicitly list Goliaths as a race that can take it, then you can't take it, and the build just doesn't work very well. However, if you're playing in the Forgotten Realms, as many players do, then it should be quite easy to pull of this build in a normal campaign, either as a Goliath with your DMs approval or as a Human Psychic Warrior.


Silvanos, I am officially confused about the whole Powerful Build+Improved Grab factor.

I think I would rule that it does work for someone with Powerful Build, because that's clearly the intent of the Powerful Build ability. But you have a way of being right about rules disputes 99% of the time. So I won't even try to dispute your interpretation of the RAW.

The_Snark
2007-07-18, 04:41 PM
There's an easier way to do this... The Scorpion's Grasp feat from Sandstorm allows you to start a grapple after hitting with a light or one-handed weapon (or an unarmed strike). It also lets you forgo the penalty on attack rolls with a light weapon while grappling. It'll also work on creatures of any size.

Me, I'd combine this with the Complete Champion variant that gives you Pounce. You can finish off your full attack while grappling, after all.

Person_Man
2007-07-18, 04:48 PM
There's an easier way to do this... The Scorpion's Grasp feat from Sandstorm allows you to start a grapple after hitting with a light or one-handed weapon (or an unarmed strike). It also lets you forgo the penalty on attack rolls with a light weapon while grappling. It'll also work on creatures of any size.

Me, I'd combine this with the Complete Champion variant that gives you Pounce. You can finish off your full attack while grappling, after all.

WOOT!! Problem solved. A Human from Anauroch clearly qualifies for both Knifefighter and Scorpion's Grasp, resolving all our problems. And taking Pounce instead of Improved Grab means you can even use your full attack on a charge. Thanks Snark.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-18, 04:59 PM
Silvanos, I am officially confused about the whole Powerful Build+Improved Grab factor.

I think I would rule that it does work for someone with Powerful Build, because that's clearly the intent of the Powerful Build ability. But you have a way of being right about rules disputes 99% of the time. So I won't even try to dispute your interpretation of the RAW.

There is no doubt about the RAW, but I am not sure that the RAI is in conflict with RAW on this.


In any case it does not matter now that you found the feat that is more powerful than the special ability it tries to emulate.

When the scorpions starts taking the feat instead of relying on their natural grasp you know you made the right choice.:smallamused: