Combat use of dimension door - dropping the ape bomb

[Decstarr]

Hey guys,

recently my PCs have become really creative in literally dropping bombs on their enemies. The way it goes is as follows:

The sorceror twins dimension door, casts it about 70 feet above an enemy - or a group of enemies - and touches the warrior to take him up in the air. On arrival up air, the bard casts polymorph on the warrior, turning him into a giant ape. The sorceror uses his twinned dimension door to get himself down on earth without taking fall damage (graceful acrobatics check included). The giant ape falls on the enemies.

The way I've been doing this is: Fall damage equals 1d6 per 200pounds of weight per 10feet. The giant ape being a huge creature weighs between 2 - 16 tons. Since Polymorphs cast range is limited to 60 feet, they can't really do a higher fall, yet. But still, the impact damage, assuming the ape weighs 2 pounds and falls 60 feet, it would be 10d6 per 10feet, so 60d6. Since the Giant ape is a huge creature, thats also in an AOE, so its bigger than any AOE spell my lvl 8 party would've access to. Granted, it burns through quite a bit of ressources, but it seems to be an incredibly powerful move.

So far, I've allowed it because:
- the sorceror can't Dimension Door heavy objects, but can take the Human Warrior
- Polymorph has a range of 60 feet, but I am assuming the Bard is preparing to cast it as soon as the warrior reaches 60 feet, so I didnt see the need to subtract some feet from the fall (which probably would be physically accurate)
- Since fall damage is "only" 1d6 per 10feet, the giant ape only takes 7d6 fall damage, which he can handle

Downside:
- Burns 2 level 4 spell slots and sorcery points for the twinning
- doesn't work in confined space for obvious reasons

Am I missing anything? I got really excited when they tried that because it is just a super awesome move to let a giant ape rain from the air!

[Ninja_Prawn]

assuming the ape weighs 2 pounds

Sounds legit.

Personally, I'm not a fan of allowing the Twinned Dimension Doors to have a delay between them. It's an instantaneous spell that teleports you - it doesn't actually open a door. I'd say that the RAW demands you use Arcane Gate for this trick, which is two levels higher.

[Decstarr]

Pardon me, the ape weighs 2 tons of course.

I didn't think about the instantaneous nature at all, but of course what you are saying makes sense. But I guess that leads to a discussion of twinned spell itself? I mean, it is a similar issue with using twin spell on any concentration spell, isn't it? By your argument, that shouldn't work either then because if I understand you correctly, you're assuming that twin spell causes both spells to be cast at the same time. The wording of Twinned has always confused me because I think it is meant to be exactly that way: One spell split up in two entities but both cast simultaneously. But interpreted this way, you wouldn't be able to use any Concentration spell or spells like Dimension Door, thus pretty much limiting it to using it merely for damage.

[JellyPooga]

Pardon me, the ape weighs 2 tons of course.

I didn't think about the instantaneous nature at all, but of course what you are saying makes sense. But I guess that leads to a discussion of twinned spell itself? I mean, it is a similar issue with using twin spell on any concentration spell, isn't it? By your argument, that shouldn't work either then because if I understand you correctly, you're assuming that twin spell causes both spells to be cast at the same time. The wording of Twinned has always confused me because I think it is meant to be exactly that way: One spell split up in two entities but both cast simultaneously. But interpreted this way, you wouldn't be able to use any Concentration spell or spells like Dimension Door, thus pretty much limiting it to using it merely for damage.

I'm with Prawn on this one; Twinning Dimension Door would simultaneously try to teleport you to two locations...which could be an interesting sensation for the rest of your (now) very short existence.

Arcane Gate also wouldn't work; they've been very careful with the wording on that spell, making it all but useless for anything fun (:smallannoyed:).

[Ninja_Prawn]

But interpreted this way, you wouldn't be able to use any Concentration spell or spells like Dimension Door, thus pretty much limiting it to using it merely for damage.

There may have been Sage Advice or Errata on this. I allow a Twinned spell to 'count as' one spell for concentration purposes (so both instances would drop if you lose concentration), but yes, I don't see how Twinned Di Door makes any sense. You can't be teleported to two different places at once...

What I would say is: you don't need to twin the Di Door to make this trick work if the sorcerer has a Ring of Feather Falling.

Edit: oh, and Jelly is right. You can't have an Arcane Gate hanging in mid-air. You might be able to work something out with it on a landscape with a lit of relief, but that's getting kind of niche...

[Decstarr]

Thanks for the input so far. Would you allow a use like this if the sorcerer quickens Dimension Door rather than twinning it? So it would be like "action - Dimension Door up air", "bonus action - Dimension Door back down". Would that work?

Also, the question arose whether the PC could take an enemy with him or not. The spell states "a willing creature" so the answer is obviously "no". But the bard then decides to use Charm or any other control based spell, telling the creature to travel with the sorcerer. Would that work? They figured, this way they could at least drop the enemies from 500ft and I am not sure if a controlled enemy would obey such a command, realizing it would be harmful.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Thanks for the input so far. Would you allow a use like this if the sorcerer quickens Dimension Door rather than twinning it? So it would be like "action - Dimension Door up air", "bonus action - Dimension Door back down". Would that work?

Can't cast a non-cantrip if you cast a full spell as a bonus action, I'm afraid.

I think the best solution is make it so the sorcerer doesn't need to magic back down.

[jaappleton]

I think twinning Dimension Door works for this. You can have the Sorc create the second door so when he falls out of the first one with the warrior, he immediately has to fall to the right (or left) in order to land into it.

Anybody play Portal 2 in co-op mode? You see where I'm going.

However, the Sorc would have to make an Acrobatics check to make it into the second portal which brings him back down to land. And another check to land gracefully, or take falling damage.

Though I'd argue he's actually only falling maybe like 10ft total, since he's actually only physically traveling and falling a VERY short distance. Maybe not even a check for falling damage, but a check to land on his feet.

I think the cost is... alright. They're burning Sorcery Points and two fourth level spells. They're being creative. It all works. I once did this myself by jumping off a roof and polymorphing myself into a whale to crush some would-be Assassins.


EDIT: If you wanted him to not even require Twinning the Dimension Door at all, let him buy a Ring of Feather Falling.

[Decstarr]

Can't cast a non-cantrip if you cast a full spell as a bonus action, I'm afraid.

Can you elaborate on that? The way I understand quicken, it does exactly that: When you cast a spell as action, by quickening it you can cast it again (or instead?) as Bonus Action. I can't find anything about only cantrips in any of the books.

[jaappleton]

Can you elaborate on that? The way I understand quicken, it does exactly that: When you cast a spell as action, by quickening it you can cast it again (or instead?) as Bonus Action. I can't find anything about only cantrips in any of the books.

It's not in the Sorc section but in the spellcasting rules. He's right: If you use your Action to cast a spell of first level or higher, you can only cast a cantrip using a bonus action.

[Decstarr]

It's not in the Sorc section but in the spellcasting rules. He's right: If you use your Action to cast a spell of first level or higher, you can only cast a cantrip using a bonus action.

Thanks. My PC won't be too happy about that, but I always thought it too strong anyways, especially now that they reach higher levels.

So, to conclude this: The way they have been doing it is not exactly according to the rules. But dropping the polymorph ape bomb works if the sorcerer accepts the fall damage - hence using Dimension Door only once - or finds another solution for not falling too hard (e.g. via items).

[jaappleton]

Thanks. My PC won't be too happy about that, but I always thought it too strong anyways, especially now that they reach higher levels.

So, to conclude this: The way they have been doing it is not exactly according to the rules. But dropping the polymorph ape bomb works if the sorcerer accepts the fall damage - hence using Dimension Door only once - or finds another solution for not falling too hard (e.g. via items).

Yeah, pretty much.

Be prepared for your spellcasters to be a bit miffed about that rule. It's going to alter what they can do quite a bit.

[BiPolar]

What if you took an insect, cast catapult, and then once in the air, cast polymorph?

[Decstarr]

What if you took an insect, cast catapult, and then once in the air, cast polymorph?

If I am not mistaken, Polymorph transforms into a beast of equal or lower level. So to use the Ape I think you need a lvl 7 or 8 creature. I doubt any insects qualify for that :P Might be an incentive to find a way to level up that familiar, though :P

[BiPolar]

If I am not mistaken, Polymorph transforms into a beast of equal or lower level. So to use the Ape I think you need a lvl 7 or 8 creature. I doubt any insects qualify for that :P Might be an incentive to find a way to level up that familiar, though :P

darnit, you are correct sir. I guess you'd have to Polymorph the fighter into an insect, catapult, and then cast another polymorph into ape.

[Decstarr]

One more question: How would you tackle cast range in such a situation?

Let's say the enemies are 20 feet away from the PCs. The sorcerer uses Dimension Door to teleport himself lets say 80 feet above them. Cast range of polymorph is only 60 feet, so the bard wouldn't be able to polymorph him when he's 60 feet above the enemies, since he's 20 feet away from the enemies? Does that mean I'll have to do the math anytime they pull this off? O_o

[JellyPooga]

Does that mean I'll have to do the math anytime they pull this off? O_o

If they were players in my game, I'd make them do it.

(I'd do it too, but then I like doing maths...).

[ProphetSword]

Hey guys,
The sorceror twins dimension door, casts it about 70 feet above an enemy - or a group of enemies - and touches the warrior to take him up in the air. On arrival up air, the bard casts polymorph on the warrior, turning him into a giant ape. The sorceror uses his twinned dimension door to get himself down on earth without taking fall damage (graceful acrobatics check included). The giant ape falls on the enemies.


You could probably put an end to these shenanigans by just pointing out the following from the text of Twinned Spell:

TWINNED SPELL
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and
doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of
sorcery points equal to the spell's levei to target a second
creature in range with the same spell (I sorcery point if
the spell is a cantrip).


Or, this from Sage Advice:

Q: Does Twinned Spell make two spell instances or change one spell instance to 2 targets?
A: One spell instance, two targets.

And this bit of wisdom that someone else said in a blog post, which I think they got right:
Twin Spell doesn't cast two spells. It allows a spell which targets a single target to target two targets instead. The ability doesn't modify the number of spells being cast. It simply modifies the number of targets the spell you're casting has. It's otherwise unchanged.


They can still do this with a normal casting, but it means the Sorcerer is falling right alongside the ape...

[Little boy]

The first rule of "breaking DnD" works here. The DM can make more of them

[RumoCrytuf]

This... sound... AWESOME!!! I might have to try this myself. Let your players do it! This kind of creativity is what we need in D&D!!! Even as a LE DM, I have to appreciate the players using their brains. Screw RAW. If this is what works (and you're okay with it) Go for it!!

[BiPolar]

One more question: How would you tackle cast range in such a situation?

Let's say the enemies are 20 feet away from the PCs. The sorcerer uses Dimension Door to teleport himself lets say 80 feet above them. Cast range of polymorph is only 60 feet, so the bard wouldn't be able to polymorph him when he's 60 feet above the enemies, since he's 20 feet away from the enemies? Does that mean I'll have to do the math anytime they pull this off? O_o

That's definitely an issue, especially with OP's original plan.

And even my suggestion of Polymorph Fighter to Insect->catapult->Polymorph to Giant Ape is limited by the 60' range.

[Laserlight]

Why are they going through all this with 4th level Dim Door when they can just cast 3rd level Fly and make it reusable? Giant Ape Makes Enemies His Trampoline!

[jaappleton]

That's definitely an issue, especially with OP's original plan.

And even my suggestion of Polymorph Fighter to Insect->catapult->Polymorph to Giant Ape is limited by the 60' range.

Is it really worth doing the calculation of falling at a rate of 9.8 meters per second and then converting that to feet to determine how much time has to pass in a 6 second round before he's within 60ft of the Bard so he can cast Polymorph?

I mean... IS IT WORTH IT?!

Sincerely, think of the sanity.

[MrStabby]

Why is the ape doing more damage to stuff on the ground than they are to it? If falling speed is enough to do say 5d6 to the ape - shouldn't the ape be doing 5d6 to the things it hits - possibly spread amongst them? Unless of course the ape is approaching the ground at a slower speed than the ground is approaching the ape...

[Dalebert]

DD doesn't actually make a door. It's a misnomer like many spells and effects. It's a short-range teleport. That's all. It's also not twinable since it's not single target. It affects you and one other creature next to you.

Don't be discouraged though. Just have your bard ready a polymorph and make sure you can Feather Fall somehow. Generally all my casters who can FF do learn it because it's just so useful. I doubt you'll regret learning it. It's not just for avoiding falling damage when you fall unexpectedly. It's also a way to move a whole party safely, quickly, and cheaply (1st level slot) from a high place to a low place purposefully.


It's not in the Sorc section but in the spellcasting rules. He's right: If you use your Action to cast a spell of first level or higher, you can only cast a cantrip using a bonus action.

Close. To be technically correct (the best kind of correct) the rule is if you cast a spell using your bonus action, you can't cast a spell other than a cantrip that turn. It's an important distinction. It means if you quicken that DD, you won't be able to Feather Fall down so make sure you just use your regular action to cast it! This is also why you CAN use action surge to cast two full spells in a turn because no bonus action spell is being cast.

[jaappleton]

Close. To be technically correct (the best kind of correct)

Did you...

Did you just drop a Futurama reference?

-slow clap-

[Dalebert]

OMG! I wasn't technically correct. I am editing it now. If you cast ANY spell with a bonus action, even a cantrip, the only other spell you can cast that turn is a cantrip that takes an action. That means if you cast anything with your bonus action (including a standard Misty Step for instance), no Feather Fall or Counterspell that same turn.

http://i.imgur.com/OkIUJe7.png

[TheTeaMustFlow]

DD doesn't actually make a door. It's a misnomer like many spells and effects. It's a short-range teleport. That's all. It's also not twinable since it's not single target. It affects you and one other creature next to you.

To be fair, I think it used to, a very long time ago. As in, prior to 3rd edition.

[Dalebert]

To be fair, I think it used to, a very long time ago. As in, prior to 3rd edition.

I was explaining this very same thing back in 2nd edition (AD&D). If you mean even earlier than that, then... maybe. I used to read and memorize details of all the spells when I got to play very little so I would just read and scheme up ideas. I remember when a player tried to cast DD and then just throw some gear through the door. I face-palmed.

[Biggstick]

Close. To be technically correct (the best kind of correct) the rule is if you cast a 1st level or higher spell using your bonus action, you can't cast a spell other than a cantrip that turn. It's an important distinction. It means if you quicken that DD, you won't be able to Feather Fall down so make sure you just use your regular action to cast it! This is also why you CAN use action surge to cast two full spells in a turn because no bonus action spell is being cast.

To be technically correct, you will be able to cast Feather Fall down.

Feather Fall is a reaction, and you can cast a spell with your reaction even if you've cast a spell with your Bonus action or regular Action.

This has been hashed out already whether a spell caster can Counterspell an enemy Counterspelling the spellcaster's spell (read: you can cast Counterspell on the same turn you're casting another spell).



As for the OP, you definitely can't Twin Dimension Door. The Sorcerer needs to have Feather Fall somehow. This will allow for him/her to safely fall without taking damage. I also suspect the damage being done is a little high, but as long as you the DM are fine with it, good on em!

[Dalebert]

Feather Fall is a reaction, and you can cast a spell with your reaction even if you've cast a spell with your Bonus action or regular Action.

Here's the wording C&Ped verbatim. (emphasis mine)


A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

So no you can't. You can't cast any other spell the same turn. The one exception: a cantrip with a casting time of one action.


This has been hashed out already whether a spell caster can Counterspell an enemy Counterspelling the spellcaster's spell (read: you can cast Counterspell on the same turn you're casting another spell).

That's fine if you're casting a spell with your action that gets counterspelled. You can still cast Counterspell. If someone Counterspells your Misty Step, you ain't goin' nowhere.

[RulesJD]

To be technically correct, you will be able to cast Feather Fall down.

Feather Fall is a reaction, and you can cast a spell with your reaction even if you've cast a spell with your Bonus action or regular Action.

This has been hashed out already whether a spell caster can Counterspell an enemy Counterspelling the spellcaster's spell (read: you can cast Counterspell on the same turn you're casting another spell).



As for the OP, you definitely can't Twin Dimension Door. The Sorcerer needs to have Feather Fall somehow. This will allow for him/her to safely fall without taking damage. I also suspect the damage being done is a little high, but as long as you the DM are fine with it, good on em!

You're wrong. Please actually read the rules before claiming what they mean.

Spell -> Counterspell -> Counterspell works ONLY IF the original spell WASN'T a Bonus Action spell.

PHB pg. 202 - Casting Time - Bonus Action

"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

Result:

1. If you cast a spell as a Bonus Action, you can't then cast a spell as a Reaction on the same turn.

2. HOWEVER, you can cast a spell as a Reaction during the same round. You won't be able to understand this rule until you realize the difference between a Round and a Turn.

3. Spell -> CS -> CS works precisely because no one is using a Bonus Action to cast a spell as a Bonus Action. The First spellcaster uses their Action and Reaction, NOT their Bonus Action.

[Biggstick]

So no you can't. You can't cast any other spell the same turn. The one exception: a cantrip with a casting time of one action.

That's fine if you're casting a spell with your action that gets counterspelled. You can still cast Counterspell. If someone Counterspells your Misty Step, you ain't goin' nowhere.

Alright then sure. You can't Counterspell a Counterspell for your Bonus action spell. But you don't need to Quicken Dimension Door, you can just simply cast the spell as an action and then Reaction cast Feather Fall. Thus the player can still achieve what they were setting out to do, as long as they have Feather Fall available to them.

If I could link to it, I would. Reading through the Errata'd content gives the example of a Wizard named Cornelius casting Fireball and then Counterspelling the Counterspell for his Fireball. It doesn't specify using an action to cast Fireball, simply that the Wizard is casting Fireball. I can't seem to find any Sage Advice or Errata anywhere suggesting that the casting of a bonus action spell doesn't mean you can't Reaction cast a spell the same way you can Reaction cast a spell with the casting of an Action spell.

[SharkForce]

Alright then sure. You can't Counterspell a Counterspell for your Bonus action spell. But you don't need to Quicken Dimension Door, you can just simply cast the spell as an action and then Reaction cast Feather Fall. Thus the player can still achieve what they were setting out to do, as long as they have Feather Fall available to them.

If I could link to it, I would. Reading through the Errata'd content gives the example of a Wizard named Cornelius casting Fireball and then Counterspelling the Counterspell for his Fireball. It doesn't specify using an action to cast Fireball, simply that the Wizard is casting Fireball. I can't seem to find any Sage Advice or Errata anywhere suggesting that the casting of a bonus action spell doesn't mean you can't Reaction cast a spell the same way you can Reaction cast a spell with the casting of an Action spell.

yes, they're quite aware that you can counterspell on your own turn if you use a regular action to cast a spell. they've mentioned that. twice.

but seeing as how that was not the situation they were responding to, it is completely irrelevant. the rules for what happens when you cast a spell as a normal action are not the rules to look up when you're wondering what happens if you cast a spell as a bonus action.

[Dalebert]

But you don't need to Quicken Dimension Door, you can just simply cast the spell as an action and then Reaction cast Feather Fall. Thus the player can still achieve what they were setting out to do, as long as they have Feather Fall available to them.

Scroll up and you will see me suggesting exactly that strategy. I said just make sure you don't Quicken DD or you won't be able to Feather Fall down. Otherwise it works fine.


I can't seem to find any Sage Advice or Errata anywhere suggesting that the casting of a bonus action spell doesn't mean you can't Reaction cast a spell the same way you can Reaction cast a spell with the casting of an Action spell.

It doesn't need to be errated. Two of us have quoted the exact wording from the PHB that says it.

[Decstarr]

To be technically correct, you will be able to cast Feather Fall down.

Feather Fall is a reaction, and you can cast a spell with your reaction even if you've cast a spell with your Bonus action or regular Action.

This has been hashed out already whether a spell caster can Counterspell an enemy Counterspelling the spellcaster's spell (read: you can cast Counterspell on the same turn you're casting another spell).



As for the OP, you definitely can't Twin Dimension Door. The Sorcerer needs to have Feather Fall somehow. This will allow for him/her to safely fall without taking damage. I also suspect the damage being done is a little high, but as long as you the DM are fine with it, good on em!

Why is the damage high? And how would you handle the damage? I applied to rules for damage by an object 1d6 per 10feet fall per 200pounds. But it IS indeed kinda weird and irrational, that the ape would take only 6d6 fall damage while doing up to 480d6 damage to the things he lands upon (assuming the ape is a fat one weighing 16 tons). Am i missing something here? I'd treat the falling ape like an object on impact on other creatures and simultaneously apply creature fall damage to it (which iirc correctly is limited to 20d6). It seems somewhat strange.

[Jarlhen]

Isn't fall damage limited to 20d6? I don't have the book in front of me. Maybe it's only to the faller.

[Decstarr]

Isn't fall damage limited to 20d6? I don't have the book in front of me. Maybe it's only to the faller.

Yes, iirc there is different kinds of damage: The one done to a creature that is falling down (which is 1d6 per 10 feet and limited to 20d6) and the damage done to people being hit by a falling object (which is 1d6 per 200 pounds per 10 feet of fall). That's why a huge creature like a giant ape weighing between 2 - 16 tons could theoretically deal an insane amount of damage by just falling on the enemies, while taking a maximum of 20d6 fall damage himself (which to me seems broken and not logical, given the fact that the giant ape has 157 HP, he just can't die from whatever height he's falling off?)

[MrStabby]

I think it's also worth noting that the falling damage rules are probably intended only for PCs. Also it is assumed that the PCs are all small or medium sized creatures.

I would simply scale up damage by the expected change in mass - based on scaling up dimensions. Large creatures take 8 times damage, huge take 27 times damage and so on. Go the other way for tiny. The bigger you are the more damage you take when you fall.

At a minimum I wouldn't allow the faller to take less damage than the people fallen upon. Two bits of meat collide at 250ft per second and it doesn't matter which fell and which was on the ground - it is just the relative speed at impact that matters. Sure the falling creature may have an area of effect and split the damage between multiple targets if it wants.


A big thing to think of when making these rulings is the party. If its something very effective that 3 members can do and there are two who have no part in it then you are making them relatively less effective. This isn't always a problem and they may have other non-combat ways to do their thing but by allowing this you may be making things less fun for some players.

[Ravinsild]

Twinned Spell = Havoc: Marks a target with Havoc for 8 sec, causing your single target spells to also strike the Havoc victim. Limit 1.

[CursedRhubarb]

Why waste a second spell or an item resource for the Sorcerer after the Dimension Door? It would be oddly fitting for the Sorcerer to grab the ape and ride it down like Maj. "King" Kong in Dr. Strangelove.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/riding_the_bomb.jpg

Or just have the ape grab the Sorcerer so he avoids the fall damage since he won't hit the ground.