Invocatiions Stack, Right?

[Pichu]

Right now, we are a group of (usually) 6 players, although it can get down to 4 or up to 10. Anyways, we got into an encounter with 3 frost giants, one of the being the Volo's variant. The party was 8 level 6 characters and a friendly frost giant. When it's the warlock's turn, he Hexes and then casts Eldritch Blast. He crits and the second beam hits also. So, he has Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast. In total, he rolls 3d10+2d6+8 (+4*2 from Agonizing Blast) (Q: If I crit, do I double hex?) Anyways, he then says to the DM that the creature gets knocked back 20 ft (10*2). The DM replies and says that he can only apply one per beam. Can invocation stack or not? I haven't found anything to say they can't but I wanted to be sure. Thanks!

[Clone]

Right now, we are a group of (usually) 6 players, although it can get down to 4 or up to 10. Anyways, we got into an encounter with 3 frost giants, one of the being the Volo's variant. The party was 8 level 6 characters and a friendly frost giant. When it's the warlock's turn, he Hexes and then casts Eldritch Blast. He crits and the second beam hits also. So, he has Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast. In total, he rolls 3d10+2d6+8 (+4*2 from Agonizing Blast) (Q: If I crit, do I double hex?) Anyways, he then says to the DM that the creature gets knocked back 20 ft (10*2). The DM replies and says that he can only apply one per beam. Can invocation stack or not? I haven't found anything to say they can't but I wanted to be sure. Thanks!

As far as my understanding is, and what the vast majority of forums seem to say, it indeed is applied to each beam. So hitting the giant twice would send it back 20ft. Since Eldritch Blast is the Warlock's bread and butter, the invos tend to be powerful.

[Millstone85]

Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast can be applied on every hit of eldritch blast, and they can be applied together.

And I am less sure but I believe the extra damage of hex is doubled on a critical hit.

[Kryx]

Hex, being an additional damage dice, is doubled on a crit, yes. It functions the same as hunter's mark, colossus slayer, smite, sneak attack, etc.

Invocations do stack. Though I find repelling blast to be too strong. I houserule it to be once per turn.

[Theodoxus]

All dice are doubled on a crit, all static damage is not.

Regarding repelling blast - it's the DMs call. It's one of those 'rulings, not rules' that people Love/Hate.

You'll never find anything RAW that states that 4 hits on the same target will knock it back 40'. It tends to come down how simulationist the DM/Table plays... if the general consensus is that all EBs hit at the same time, then the force of their hits would likewise be simultaneous, so the target is knocked back only 10'. (Encouraging a Repelling Blast Warlock to fire at multiple targets.) However, if the general consensus is that EB is more like World of Warcraft's 'Arcane Missiles', where each is a discrete missile hitting in succession, then it's more likely the DM will rule that the repelling forces are cumulative.

I've yet to encounter a situation in game where the difference between 10' and 20' would be statistically significant. The same can be said with the invo that increases the range to 300'... Sniping with EB just never comes up...

[Pichu]

Thanks for all your replies and help folks!



I've yet to encounter a situation in game where the difference between 10' and 20' would be statistically significant.

It didn't make a difference, I was just asking if they could stack, Agonizing and Repelling. I'm not focused on 10' vs 20', just if I could add my Charisma bonus AND knock it back.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Thanks for all your replies and help folks!



It didn't make a difference, I was just asking if they could stack, Agonizing and Repelling. I'm not focused on 10' vs 20', just if I could add my Charisma bonus AND knock it back.

Of course you can, and you should, as frequently as possible.

[Theodoxus]

Gotcha. I was replying to what you'd written...


Anyways, he then says to the DM that the creature gets knocked back 20 ft (10*2). The DM replies and says that he can only apply one per beam. Can invocation stack or not? I haven't found anything to say they can't but I wanted to be sure. Thanks!

It was all about knocking back 20'; you didn't clarify that it was about both Agonizing and Repelling. No worries. Yes, RAW, the effects of two different invocations can be applied to a single (and every single) attack from an Eldritch Blast.

[Christian]

I've yet to encounter a situation in game where the difference between 10' and 20' would be statistically significant. The same can be said with the invo that increases the range to 300'... Sniping with EB just never comes up...

Joe was a Warlock with the Repelling Blast invocation.

Jane was a Druid who prepared Spike Growth.

This is the story of how they became the best of pals forever and ever ...

DM: "The clattering gets louder, and suddenly, four minotaur skeletons burst around the corner and charge down the long corridor towards you!"

Jane looked at Joe.

Joe looked at Jane.

Slowly, they began to smile.

"I knew that someday this day would come," said Joe.

************

Note: I actually did see this exact situation once. There was also an Open Hand monk in the party. The one minotaur skeleton that got through the Corridor of Spiky Death untouched by the Eldritch Blasts of Repelling Doom was rapidly reduced to bone fragments by the Flurry of Hey I Hear You're Vulnerable To Bludgeoning Damage Oh And Please Enjoy That Last 15 Feet of The Corridor of Spiky Death a Couple More Times.

DM didn't care. It was just a random encounter. And it's good to let the party think they're doing well once in a while.

[RumoCrytuf]

it's good to let the party think they're doing well once in a while.

Yes...keep thinking that... your doing absolutely fine...*Starts brewing a nasty amalgam of minotaur bones for a boss 3 doors down the dungeon* :P

[AvatarVecna]

Friend directed me to this thread, figured I'd add my two cents: the invocation says that you push the target 10 ft whenever you hit it with Eldritch Blast. There would be a slight argument if all the EB rays had to be fired at exactly the same time, but that's not how the spell works, or indeed how most spells with attack rolls work: the only spell I can think of that works that way is Magic Missile, and that's because Magic Missile explicitly states that the missiles are fired simultaneously (additionally, Magic Missile doesn't require an attack roll, so it's still not even necessarily operating under the standard rules). Also, I'm not sure why your DM is allowing the damage bonus invocation multiple times but not the push. Weird...


Hex, being an additional damage dice, is doubled on a crit, yes. It functions the same as hunter's mark, colossus slayer, smite, sneak attack, etc.

Invocations do stack. Though I find repelling blast to be too strong. I houserule it to be once per turn.

Yeah, because that's the problem with Repelling Blast: not that it can apply to a target of any size, and not that it doesn't involve a saving throw or ability check to resist, but that it can potentially occur multiple times a round. If it was size restricted to Large like most shoving abilities and involved a Str save, it wouldn't be nearly so useful past the early levels where you don't fight tons of strong/big enemies.

[Kryx]

Yeah, because that's the problem with Repelling Blast: not that it can apply to a target of any size, and not that it doesn't involve a saving throw or ability check to resist, but that it can potentially occur multiple times a round. If it was size restricted to Large like most shoving abilities and involved a Str save, it wouldn't be nearly so useful past the early levels where you don't fight tons of strong/big enemies.
I previously attached a save instead of limiting it once per round, but that was far too cumbersome in actual play. Therefore I used the once per round solution. I don't agree with the size limitations (many other pushes don't have them either - monk Open Hand for example).

[Talionis]

As you get to three and four Eldritch Blasts you are now moving adversaries outside of their movement in one turn, many creatures can't close the distance and use melee attacks. If they have decent ranged attacks it may not bother a DM, but since EB is available every round it may make sense for DMs to want to limit the push effect to once per turn per target.

It also always makes a difference when the chasm is fifteen feet away. So it's important that DMs think hard about how and if they limit Warlocks push. It tends to be a major factor in every battle.

We also rule that invocations are optional for Warlock so if they want to repelling blast their own team they don't have to add Agonizing Damage to those blasts and if you are blasting the monster in melee with the Barbarian, you may not want to add repelling to that attack. I've played in games where DMs wouldn't let you turn invocations off.

[AvatarVecna]

I previously attached a save instead of limiting it once per round, but that was far too cumbersome in actual play. Therefore I used the once per round solution. I don't agree with the size limitations (many other pushes don't have them either - monk Open Hand for example).

The cumbersome nature of saves is very much a YMMV; I'm willing to accept a slightly slower combat round in one of the faster editions I've played in exchange for nerfing this ability in a way that makes it more similar to other pushes without heavily nerfing the ability.

Also, I'm legitimately curious to hear what other examples you have of pushes with no size restriction. The standard Shove available to everybody (and available as a bonus action to people with the Shield Master feat) has it, and the battlemaster maneuver available to some fighters (or anybody who takes Martial Adept) has it. When you say "many other pushes", did you actually have a second example? Perhaps a spell or something that doesn't have a size restriction, there's probably one or two of those, right?

[Kryx]

Also, I'm legitimately curious to hear what other examples you have of pushes with no size restriction. The standard Shove available to everybody (and available as a bonus action to people with the Shield Master feat) has it, and the battlemaster maneuver available to some fighters (or anybody who takes Martial Adept) has it. When you say "many other pushes", did you actually have a second example? Perhaps a spell or something that doesn't have a size restriction, there's probably one or two of those, right?
Ugh, this kind of egoism is really intolerable.. There really is no need for speaking in such an aggressive manner.

Spells
Bigby's Hand is a check which has no size limitation
Dust Devil is a save with no size limitation
Forcecage pushes creatures outside of the dome with no save or size limitation (tertiary effect)
Gust of Wind is a save with no size limitation
Thunderous Smite is a save with no size limitation
Thunderwave is a save with no size limitation
Wall of Force, Wall of Ice, and Wall of Stone push without a save or size limitation (tertiary effect)

Features
Monk's Open Hand is a save with no size limitation
Monk's Fist of the Unbroken Air is a save with no size limitation
Warlock's Repelling blast is based on a hit with no size limitation
Storm Sorcerer's Storm's Fury is a save with no size limitation

Misc
Charger feat is based on a hit with no size limitation

Really, there is no need to be so aggressive..

[AvatarVecna]

Ugh, this kind of egoism is really intolerable.. There really is no need for speaking in such an aggressive manner.

Spells
Bigby's Hand is a check which has no size limitation
Dust Devil is a save with no size limitation
Forcecage pushes creatures outside of the dome with no save or size limitation (tertiary effect)
Gust of Wind is a save with no size limitation
Thunderous Smite is a save with no size limitation
Thunderwave is a save with no size limitation
Wall of Force, Wall of Ice, and Wall of Stone push without a save or size limitation (tertiary effect)

Features
Monk's Open Hand is a save with no size limitation
Monk's Fist of the Unbroken Air is a save with no size limitation
Warlock's Repelling blast is based on a hit with no size limitation
Storm Sorcerer's Storm's Fury is a save with no size limitation

Misc
Charger feat is based on a hit with no size limitation

Really, there is no need to be so aggressive..

I'm sorry if it came across as aggressive. When I said I was legitimately curious, I wasn't being sarcastic, I actually meant it; most of the Push abilities I was familiar with through discussion here in the forums had a size limit, and I was curious if you had other examples of common pushes that didn't have a size limit.

[Sicarius Victis]

Ugh, this kind of egoism is really intolerable.. There really is no need for speaking in such an aggressive manner.



Really, there is no need to be so aggressive..

"Agressive"? Seriously? There was nothing "agressive" about that.

Come to think of it, there was nothing "egoistic" either. Are you sure those were the words you'd intended to use?

Edit: Ninja'd.

[AvatarVecna]

"Agressive"? Seriously? There was nothing "agressive" about that.

Come to think of it, there was nothing "egoistic" either. Are you sure those were the words you'd intended to use?

Nah, both are fair; it wasn't written with that intent, but reading it over again I can definitely see where they're getting that subtext from, even if it wasn't intended at all. It's hard to judge intent through the internet, I should work harder to make my posts less...I dunno, less aggressive-adjacent?

EDIT: Also, I wanna thank you both for helping expand my knowledge, both in regards to push effects in 5e and the English language (I wasn't aware "egoistic" was actually a word, but it turns out that it is, and is basically interchangeable with what I thought was the more appropriate word "egotistic").

[Sicarius Victis]

Nah, both are fair; it wasn't written with that intent, but reading it over again I can definitely see where they're getting that subtext from, even if it wasn't intended at all. It's hard to judge intent through the internet, I should work harder to make my posts less...I dunno, less aggressive-adjacent?

EDIT: Also, I wanna thank you both for helping expand my knowledge, both in regards to push effects in 5e and the English language (I wasn't aware "egoistic" was actually a word, but it turns out that it is, and is basically interchangeable with what I thought was the more appropriate word "egotistic").

I suppose it could have been seen as aggressive, if the reader had automatically assumed it was sarcastic without reading through it. Egoistic, though, I see none of.

Wait, why am I arguing that your post wasn't offensive, while you are arguing that it could have been seen as offensive? I feel like we're both on the wrong sides of the argument...

[Kryx]

When you say "many other pushes", did you actually have a second example? Perhaps a spell or something that doesn't have a size restriction, there's probably one or two of those, right?
This was the part that I interpreted to being rude. It sounded like you were trying to prove a point, but it seems I was mistaken and you didn't intended it how I had read it, my apologies.

Back on topic: There are many different ways pushes are handled in 5e. Mostly saves and about half are restricted by size. For Repelling Blast I think either limiting it to once per creature per round or adding a save is a good option. I don't think a size limitation will really balance it much as the problems of pushing 40 feet will exist for all creatures of the sizes you allow.

[8wGremlin]

It's a 3.5 warlock hangover.
3.5 warlocks were only allowed to have one affect rider on their eldritch blast.

in 5e there is no such limitation.

[Mongobear]

Ugh, this kind of egoism is really intolerable.. There really is no need for speaking in such an aggressive manner.

Spells
Bigby's Hand is a check which has no size limitation
Dust Devil is a save with no size limitation
Forcecage pushes creatures outside of the dome with no save or size limitation (tertiary effect)
Gust of Wind is a save with no size limitation
Thunderous Smite is a save with no size limitation
Thunderwave is a save with no size limitation
Wall of Force, Wall of Ice, and Wall of Stone push without a save or size limitation (tertiary effect)

Features
Monk's Open Hand is a save with no size limitation
Monk's Fist of the Unbroken Air is a save with no size limitation
Warlock's Repelling blast is based on a hit with no size limitation
Storm Sorcerer's Storm's Fury is a save with no size limitation

Misc
Charger feat is based on a hit with no size limitation

Really, there is no need to be so aggressive..

How is anything he said agressive? I think you're reading too far into something that isn't there and are just getting heated because somebody disagrees with you AND asked you to cite sources.

As far as your examples, almost all of them are spells, or some other limited resource. Not an infinitely available Cantrip + class feature choice. Another thing, almost all of them have either a size restriction OR a save to resist the shove. Repelling Blast has neither, all you need to do is hit them with your at will attack cantrip and shove them back. It doesn't matter if you're hitting a Pixie, an Ogre, the Kraken, or the damned Avatar of Tiamat, they go flying backwards.

THAT is the issue being brought up with it, compared to EVERY OTHER Shove effect, Repelling Blast ignores the basic mechanics for reasons.

[rollingForInit]

if the general consensus is that all EBs hit at the same time, then the force of their hits would likewise be simultaneous, so the target is knocked back only 10'. (Encouraging a Repelling Blast Warlock to fire at multiple targets.) However, if the general consensus is that EB is more like World of Warcraft's 'Arcane Missiles', where each is a discrete missile hitting in succession, then it's more likely the DM will rule that the repelling forces are cumulative.

But the general consensus is the latter, isn't it? Since you can even target different creatures with different beams. At least, that's the intended mechanics of all such spells. And most people seem to accept RAI as what goes.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/02/spells-that-target-one-after-another/

[Kryx]

As far as your examples, almost all of them are spells, or some other limited resource. Not an infinitely available Cantrip + class feature choice. Another thing, almost all of them have either a size restriction OR a save to resist the shove. Repelling Blast has neither, all you need to do is hit them with your at will attack cantrip and shove them back. It doesn't matter if you're hitting a Pixie, an Ogre, or the damned Avatar of Timat, they go flying backwards.

THAT is the issue being brought up with it, compared to EVERY OTHER Shove effect, Repelling Blast ignores the basic mechanics for reasons.
Perhaps you should reread what I've written above. I'm not one to defend Repelling Blast. For quite a while now I've been one to discuss it's imbalance on these forums. See the post 2 above suggesting 2 options to improve it's balance:


For Repelling Blast I think either limiting it to once per creature per round or adding a save is a good option. I don't think a size limitation will really balance it much as the problems of pushing 40 feet will exist for all creatures of the sizes you allow.



=================



But the general consensus is the latter, isn't it? Since you can even target different creatures with different beams. At least, that's the intended mechanics of all such spells. And most people seem to accept RAI as what goes.
Correct.

[AvatarVecna]

I suppose it could have been seen as aggressive, if the reader had automatically assumed it was sarcastic without reading through it. Egoistic, though, I see none of.

Wait, why am I arguing that your post wasn't offensive, while you are arguing that it could have been seen as offensive? I feel like we're both on the wrong sides of the argument...

It's possibly interpret-able as egotistic if you assume the person is defending their position with fallacies to avoid admitting they're wrong, but I'm not sure if that was the assumption Kryx made?

In any case, whether it was intended in an offensive manner or not, we have a responsibility for how we are viewed, in that we have a choice about how we present ourselves. Being careless with words and tone can give an unintended impression, but it's not just on the other person for making a bad assumption based on your unintended subtext.

[AvatarVecna]

This was the part that I interpreted to being rude. It sounded like you were trying to prove a point, but it seems I was mistaken and you didn't intended it how I had read it, my apologies.

Back on topic: There are many different ways pushes are handled in 5e. Mostly saves and about half are restricted by size. For Repelling Blast I think either limiting it to once per creature per round or adding a save is a good option. I don't think a size limitation will really balance it much as the problems of pushing 40 feet will exist for all creatures of the sizes you allow.

I don't think being able to push somebody 40 ft at lvl 17 is a huge problem. A dual-wielder can do it every round once they pick up Extra Attack (although they give up damage), and Fighter can pull it off with Action Surge and Extra Attack no matter what weapon they're using. Open Hand Monk at lvl 3 can push 30ft (albeit with a save). Come to think of it, that last one might have RAW issues; my friend mentioned something about a weird RAI with the Flurry Of Blows ability the other day...

Anyway, I don't think getting the 10 ft push multiple times is a problem, because by the time it becomes particularly significant, there's a lot of competition for your action every round, even on a Warlock. I just think it should have either a size limitation or a save, rather than a per-round limit, and of the two I'd prefer a save to resist over a size limitation to allow it to continue being useful in the late-game.

[Sicarius Victis]

In any case, whether it was intended in an offensive manner or not, we have a responsibility for how we are viewed, in that we have a choice about how we present ourselves. Being careless with words and tone can give an unintended impression, but it's not just on the other person for making a bad assumption based on your unintended subtext.

I've always felt that life is too short for that. I prefer to just say what I say, and if somebody chooses to get offended I don't blame myself for their choice. But I suppose there are sometimes problems with treating people the way I want to be treated.

Back to the point if the thread, I think the 5e Warlock as a whole, and Repelling Blast by extension, is just a mess of a class in general. They combined upgrades for a single optional feature, a group of subclasses that have almost nothing to do with each other, a variety of different feature-recharge schedules that just make it overly complicated to keep track of what comes back when, and a lot of optional features in a game that tries to avoid them. I think we just need a new Warlock, then the rest of it would be easier to figure out.