Would Cantrips as Bonus actions be too powerful...

[Toofey]

I'm working up some homebrew options for a table I run and I'm looking at putting together a combat specialist mage and was considering giving them the ability to cast cantrips as bonus actions as either a 6th or 14th level ability.

What are your thoughts hivemind? This is very thematic and a nice addition to mage action economy, but I'm worried that someone who uses it every round for damage is going to outshine the more damage oriented classes.

[Sirithhyando]

My first thought is that the sorcerer class is able to do it with the quicken metamagic.

Maybe as a 6th level ability, being able to cast a cantrip as a bonus action a number of time equal to your intel mod per long rest? Or straight up, a mage can quicken (as a sorcerer) a number of time equal to his intel mod per long rest.

EDIT : Oh, and look at the Eldritch Knight, i think it's at level 6 or 7 that he can cast a cantrip after take the attack action with a weapon, or something like that (away from my books :smalltongue:)

[Innocent_bystan]

someone who uses it every round for damage is going to outshine the more damage oriented classes.

This. People multiclass Sorcerer and Warlock specifically to cast Eldritch Blast as a bonus action.

If I were creating a class, I'd give them the ability to do this a couple of times per long rest. Look at Fighter (action surge) and Sorcerer (quicken spell) for an indication as to how many times.

[DireSickFish]

Giving it to them a limited number of times a day will be needed as it's a strong damage bump. Basing it off of stat mod seems easiest.

One option is you could allow the casting of a cantrip that normally takes a standard action as a bonus action when the caster casts a spell of 1st level or higher. You're making them burst harder but making sure when they're fighting mooks there damage is the same as other casters.

[MrStabby]

It might depend what you mean by "mage". If it is a wizard archetype then it is going to need to be seriously limited.

If it is a different class with a different casting progression and this can be a key feature - then it could be balanced. Poorer casting offset with powerful at will cantrip damage is how the warlock works and that is kind of ok.

It is worth looking at bounds though - ensure that typical at will damage doesn't exceed a fighter with similar AC - i.e. probably sword and shield build. Likewise if it's at will options are comparable to the warlock then it should be similarly restricted in it's casting.

[Sicarius Victis]

EDIT : Oh, and look at the Eldritch Knight, i think it's at level 6 or 7 that he can cast a cantrip after take the attack action with a weapon, or something like that (away from my books :smalltongue:)

...No, the EK can make a single weapon attack as a bonus action after taking the Cast A Spell action. You had the right theory, but exactly backwards.

And yes, it's at level 7. Until higher levels, they can also only do it with cantrips.

[Toofey]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Making it based on the stat mod works great with the theme of the character.

[Joe the Rat]

Assuming a Wizard variant. If you are using one of the other casters, change all references to the appropriate casting stat.

[[When you cast a spell / when you cast a cantrip / when you cast a spell of 1st level or higher]] (pick one)
You may cast a cantrip as a bonus action [[once per short or long rest (increases to twice per short or long rest at X level / a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). This resets on a long rest]] (pick one).

First decide what your trigger is. Is it any magic? Are you requiring a resource expense (have to use a slotted spell)? Or are you limiting this to a beam spam effect (cantrips only)?
The 1/rest and Int Mod/ long rest are based on Action Surge (Fighter) and War Priest (Cleric War Domain) resources.

If it's strictly double cantrip casting, you could make this a level 2 feature (where Wizards pick up their specialty schools). You could start it cantrip only, then have it follow leveled spells as a later feature (paralleling fighter War Magic).

The limited use angle is due to the nature of cantrip damage. Each die increase parallel's the extra attacks of the fighter (and other boosts for non-fighters). It is rather like an action surge in terms of combat effect. But it is a more limited or structured use, which I think would allow some flexibility on the resource setup.

[BigONotation]

Cantrip scaling and mod bonus to damage are already far too good to do anything that will allow full casters even more power. Full stop. Now, if full casters scaled at 7th and 14th and never got another cantrip scaling and your archetype/class feature existed, that would be different. As it stands I think allowing more powerful cantrip use is a mistake.

[clash]

I would just give them War Magic verbatim. Casting a cantrip as a bonus action is a lot more powerful and versatile then allowing one attack when you cast a cantrip

[SillyPopeNachos]

Not if it requires a feat.

[MrStabby]

Hmm. A lot of bonus action stuff is conditional - it could be more balanced that way. It would differentiate it from the sorcerer as well.

Something like if you take the dodge, disengage or dash action you may cast a cantrip as a bonus action. This sidesteps the problem of casting two spells per turn. Add in the hide action if you want a stealthy shoot-from-the-shadows type wizard. If this is a level 6+ ability it also makes it hard to abuse in multiclassing.

[Stan]

Something like if you take the dodge, disengage or dash action you may cast a cantrip as a bonus action. This sidesteps the problem of casting two spells per turn. Add in the hide action if you want a stealthy shoot-from-the-shadows type wizard. If this is a level 6+ ability it also makes it hard to abuse in multiclassing.

That's a really good idea. It has no effect on max damage but it allows the character to do more things and likely have an easier time surviving.

[BillyBobShorton]

Short answer: YES.

That's why only a very small handful actually ARE bonus action cantrips.

But there are ways to to earn the bonus/reaction ability for others via feats, builds, classes, and races. Again, it's not an easy road and should be rightfully EARNED, while also limited.

[JNAProductions]

Hmm. A lot of bonus action stuff is conditional - it could be more balanced that way. It would differentiate it from the sorcerer as well.

Something like if you take the dodge, disengage or dash action you may cast a cantrip as a bonus action. This sidesteps the problem of casting two spells per turn. Add in the hide action if you want a stealthy shoot-from-the-shadows type wizard. If this is a level 6+ ability it also makes it hard to abuse in multiclassing.

Not Dodge. That damn near doubles your survivability. There's a reason Cunning Action doesn't grant Dodge.

[Asmotherion]

Yes.

The reason is that, the whole Sorcerer class is designed behind the mechanic of being able to cast more spells in the same turn, and does so by spending resource points. Or at least that's the reason why most people would pick Sorcerer over Wizard when they do so.

The only way to make this work, is limiting this to 3-4 times per day, and lowering the cost of a Sorcerer doing so to 1 SP instead of 2.

[Vorpalchicken]

Remember, if you cast a spell using a bonus action (even a cantrip) then the only other spell you can cast that round is a cantrip. So having this ability would not allow a wizard to, say, cast a bonus action fire bolt and follow with a fireball. It would be two fire bolts or fire bolt and some other action that is not casting a spell.

[gfishfunk]

Here is how I would approach it: Cost = Opportunity.

Give them a feature that allows them to use a spell slot (level 1 or higher) to cast a cantrip as a bonus action after casting a spell. It works, but it eats up later opportunity. You are trading later output for current damage at a ratio (a level 1 spell would generally be better, but a cantrip NOW is worth the trade).

[Crusher]

Another possibility would be to have it consume a spellslot to use. A level 1 slot (minimum, could use higher) for a utility cantrip, level 2 for an attack cantrip and 3 for an attack cantrip if its doing 3 or more dice of damage (level 11+?).

Then it can be available relatively early because they wont have the resources to spam it.

[Gignere]

One alternative is to allow the player to pick a favored cantrip. He can cast that one cantrip number of times per long rest = int as a bonus action. This naturally lead to a level 14 ability allowing a second cantrip to cast as a bonus action.

Maybe even allow them to pick two cantrips at level 2, and another 2 at level 14.

[Grod_The_Giant]

On the other hand, a bonus action cantrip at a reduced caster level would probably be fine; an extra die or two of damage as a bonus action is roughly competitive with TWF or PAM.

Another interesting (I think) twist on this: you can break up a cantrip so that each die of damage is delivered in a separate attack, basically turning them all into Eldrich Blast style effects. That could be coupled with your usual stat-to-damage for a reasonable DPR rate*, or perhaps with a "increase your cantrip damage die by 1 as a bonus action" type of thing.


*Warlocks will still be better with Hex and Repelling Blast, mind

[ApplePen]

Quicken costs sorc points and can really only be done once per long rest without sacking slots when a sorc first gets it.

Clerics get Spiritual Weapon, which allows for 1d8+WIS as a bonus action.. as a lv 2 spell.

Spiritual weapon does less damage than any of the scaling cantrips.

Casting a cantrip as a bonus action should cost you something, otherwise you're just buffing casters without need.

If you want to base it off int mod, have it replace a class feature that gives something comparable. I would personally make it a rod that needs to be attuned to. 5 charges, restores 1d4+1 charges per long rest, each charge allows a cantrip to be cast as a bonus action.

Call it a lesser rod of quickening.

*Goes to check if this is already a thing*

[Asmotherion]

On the other hand, an epic boon that allows just that is not half bad of an idea. Or as a Reaction instead, trigered by any creature that moves within 10 feet of the caster, so that it buffs all epic spellcasters, including sorcerers.

[Dr. Cliché]

What about casting non-damaging cantrips as bonus actions?

[Coffee_Dragon]

What about casting non-damaging cantrips as bonus actions?

Cue someone using a twisted freewheeling application of a twisted literal reading of any cantrip to argue they should be allowed to use it for damage or debuffing.

"Prestidigitation allows me to soil things, so I cover my enemies in plutonium dust. It's RAW, but of course you can say it does no damage if you want to be that kind of DM."

[Grod_The_Giant]

What about casting non-damaging cantrips as bonus actions?
I'd say casting Blade Ward every round as a bonus is much more disruptive than an extra Fire Bolt.

[Spectre9000]

Along these same lines, what would be a good wizard bonus action? Seems like wizards don't really get much for a bonus action. It'd be nice if there was a bonus action cantrip for them, but everyone seems to think this would destroy the planes if it ever happened (nevermind most builds get at will, or close to, damage as a bonus action; Sorc gets Quicken Spell, Monk gets 2 2d10+Str/Dex attacks, Cleric gets Spiritual Weapon, PAM, CE, TWF, etc).

[Asmotherion]

Along these same lines, what would be a good wizard bonus action? Seems like wizards don't really get much for a bonus action. It'd be nice if there was a bonus action cantrip for them, but everyone seems to think this would destroy the planes if it ever happened (nevermind most builds get at will, or close to, damage as a bonus action; Sorc gets Quicken Spell, Monk gets 2 2d10+Str/Dex attacks, Cleric gets Spiritual Weapon, PAM, CE, TWF, etc).

Wizards have a lot of things to do with their bonus action if they have the right spell choices: Flaming Sphere is an amazing spell available from level 3 and stays relevant for the whole game. Bigby's hand can be... handy (pardon the pun). And you can always use a misty-step or an expeditious retreat.

The damaging options above are only avalable to the wizard (and bard obviously) as they are only on the Wizard Spell List