Why does no one talk about Spell Dancer?

[SangoProduction]

I mean, wow. 4 feat taxes, but 5/5 spell casting, and you can get a free persist safely with 1 level and +5 ...Oh, Constitution. Well, still. That's one of the main stats that spell casters want after their primary casting stat. And you can go further if you have a cleric who can restore the damage. And then if you have a dancing bard in the group (or if you are...say...a Dvati, and invest points in to Perform (dance)), then you can cut the spell level adjustment by another 3, by level 3.

And there's nothing preventing you from using other methods to reduce the adjustment before spell dancing, getting even more value. Also, Endurance grants +4 on the save for spell dancing, so less of a feat tax, and effectively means you get another 4 rounds of spell dancing (for the same save). [OK, I was reading a bad online reference. It isn't just for any strenous, extended activity. But a reasonable...OK, he's letting you persist by dancing. Not the point!... DM would say Endurance applies.]

If you get get that Initiator Maneuver to replace the save with a Concentration check, you can effectively get another +4 from that feat of Combat Casting (since it gives +4 to concentration checks). AND IT STACKS WITH ENDURANCE! Because Endurance allows for checks to be modified too. [Again, bad online reference, so this is again subject to DM approval.]

And there are multiple ways to take 10 on skill checks, such as Exemplar, which can basically mean you can reliably get even more metamagic!

[Zanos]

People do talk about spell dancer. It's in the BG metamagic guide. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0) It probably isn't talked about as much as other options because Incantatrix only requires one crap feat that you can buy for 2k, while spelldancer requires 4 and has some usually non-ideal flavor tacked on. Dancing fits most characters rather poorly.

[Darrin]

Well, you know, the first rule of Spelldance Club... ahem.

The four prereq feats are really, really annoying and difficult to get into a full caster build without sacrificing something important. And since Perform doesn't appear on a lot of skill lists outside of bard, you're probably looking at five annoying prereq feats to qualify.

If you're looking to Persist a bunch of spells with a skill check, Incantatrix is much easier to deal with.

[Zanos]

Also, you generally don't need Exemplar to take 10 on skillchecks, but that has less to do with spelldancer than just a general thing people should know when their DMs try to troll them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The four prereq feats are really, really annoying and difficult to get into a full caster build without sacrificing something important. And since Perform doesn't appear on a lot of skill lists outside of bard, you're probably looking at five annoying prereq feats to qualify.
On top of the two for Persistent Spell.

But hey! If you have even more feats to spare, somehow, and a way to prevent fatigue (or at least exhaustion), you can grab Strongheart Vest (Strongheart Vest) and +1 essentia and Spelldance all day long.

[Xethik]

Pretty common in Fochlucan Lyrist builds to get Evasion, too.

[Crake]

Combat casting only gives +4 to concentration checks when casting defensively, and you wouldn't get endurance to the check either, since you're replacing it with a concentration check.

But still, that's actually completely irrelevant, because all the downsides of spelldancing beyond your limit are completely negated by one spell: Sheltered vitality. Immunity to fatigue and ability damage. So just... persist that first, then go ahead and spell dance all day long for all you care.

I'd say the main reason you don't see it around much is probably because it's 3.0 content, which, while technically acceptable, most people frown at it, especially when you see the "Invocation" school :smalltongue: (that may be a faerun thing, but regular 3.0 has no invocation school).

But yeah, when the only thing limiting you from spelldancing all day is literally countered by a level 4 spell, or hell, just being undead, seems kinda shady.

[SangoProduction]

Also, you generally don't need Exemplar to take 10 on skillchecks, but that has less to do with spelldancer than just a general thing people should know when their DMs try to troll them.

Yeah. I know. But some DMs would say that you could normally take 10 on that check, since you're under threat of taking damage.

[SangoProduction]

Combat casting only gives +4 to concentration checks when casting defensively, and you wouldn't get endurance to the check either, since you're replacing it with a concentration check.

But still, that's actually completely irrelevant, because all the downsides of spelldancing beyond your limit are completely negated by one spell: Sheltered vitality. Immunity to fatigue and ability damage. So just... persist that first, then go ahead and spell dance all day long for all you care.

I'd say the main reason you don't see it around much is probably because it's 3.0 content, which, while technically acceptable, most people frown at it, especially when you see the "Invocation" school :smalltongue: (that may be a faerun thing, but regular 3.0 has no invocation school).

But yeah, when the only thing limiting you from spelldancing all day is literally countered by a level 4 spell, or hell, just being undead, seems kinda shady.

Eh, pretty sure they meant evocation lol. Endurance, can apply to checks not just saves. However, by default, doesn't apply to spell dancing. And you can cast the spell you're manifesting defensively. But yeah. Sheltered Vitality...roflmao. Also being undead (necropolitan). Although I can't imagine there being many DMs who would put up with that for long.

[Crake]

Yeah. I know. But some DMs would say that you could normally take 10 on that check, since you're under threat of taking damage.

"The threat of taking damage" makes taking 10 so pointless in so many circumstances.

I guess tight rope walkers cant take 10 on balance checks? Swimmers cant take 10 on swim checks either, because there's the threat of drowning there? Cant take 10 on a jump check to safely jump down from a ledge, because you're definitely taking damage there.

Being threatened is different from a threat actually existing, and you're certainly not being distracted in these cases. That's just a cop-out excuse for DM's who want to simulate "danger" when all it does is make you roll your eyes and just cast guidance of the avatar or divine insight beforehand just to shut them up.

[Cosi]

It's not relevant now, but in 3.0 the Spelldancer was involved in some seriously hardcore cheese. In 3.0, you could apply metamagic feats multiple times, with effects stacking. For example, Extending something twice would give x4 duration. Also, the boost provided by the bear's endurance cycle of spells was random (as was the reality of a simulacrum). As a result, an enterprising Spelldancer could use spelldance to stack Empower onto bear's endurance to the limits of their constitution, get boosted constitution from that Empowered bear's endurance, and repeat to infinite constitution (and then intelligence, and charisma, and wisdom).

There's a similar trick to be had in one of the Elder Scrolls games (I think Morrowind), though it uses potions.

[Crake]

It's not relevant now, but in 3.0 the Spelldancer was involved in some seriously hardcore cheese. In 3.0, you could apply metamagic feats multiple times, with effects stacking. For example, Extending something twice would give x4 duration. Also, the boost provided by the bear's endurance cycle of spells was random (as was the reality of a simulacrum). As a result, an enterprising Spelldancer could use spelldance to stack Empower onto bear's endurance to the limits of their constitution, get boosted constitution from that Empowered bear's endurance, and repeat to infinite constitution (and then intelligence, and charisma, and wisdom).

There's a similar trick to be had in one of the Elder Scrolls games (I think Morrowind), though it uses potions.

N-no... it's skyrim... In skyrim you can infinitely stack enchanting and alchemy ontop of one another for game breaking results, literally healing all of your hp in the same game tick you take it, having 100% resists to practically everything, having 0 magicka cost spells across the board, and generally one shotting everything with any source of damage you have.

Because why not?!The unofficial patch fixed all that of course.


Eh, pretty sure they meant evocation lol. Endurance, can apply to checks not just saves. However, by default, doesn't apply to spell dancing. And you can cast the spell you're manifesting defensively. But yeah. Sheltered Vitality...roflmao. Also being undead (necropolitan). Although I can't imagine there being many DMs who would put up with that for long.

Just saw this, didn't realise you'd posted again in reply. The defensive casting check would be it's own check, so it still wouldn't apply. You could argue that endurance would apply, though I wouldn't allow it, as you're no longer making an endurance check, but rather replacing it with a concentration check. Also, nothing in there actually says endurance applies to the save, so... not sure where you got that from. Endurance has a very specific list of what it applies to, and the spelldance ability doesn't expand that list.

But yeah, honestly, if you're going to have spelldancers in your game, and you're also going to have undead in there too, you have to accept the fact that those two things can be combined. If you cannot accept that, then your option is to either remove one or the other. I figure most DMs would be fine with seeing spelldancers go, but would rather keep the option for having undead in their game

[Cruiser1]

The four prereq feats are really, really annoying and difficult to get into a full caster build without sacrificing something important.
If the DM allows qualifying for PRC's with items or buffs, then all four Spelldancer prerequisite feats can be obtained without wasting a build's actual feat slots:

Dodge: Cast Heroics (SC), or take Devil Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#devil)
Mobility: Cast Heroics (SC), or wear +1 armor of Mobility
Endurance: Cast Unfailing Endurance (DotF)
Combat Casting: Cast Mirror Move (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a), then cast Summon Monster VII to bring in a Djinni, or Summon Monster VIII to bring in a Lillend, and watch it defensively cast a spell

It's not relevant now, but in 3.0 the Spelldancer was involved in some seriously hardcore cheese.
In 3.5 you can still do extremely overpowered builds centered around Spelldancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum), that are just shy of Pun-Pun in power. You can have infinite spells, infinite standard actions in a row (even before initiative is rolled), and infinite arbitrarily high XP wishes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268501-3-5-Metamagic-Wish-Wishing-for-Infinite-Wishes). :smallcool:

[ExLibrisMortis]

People do talk about Spelldancer. I typically bring it up when talking about Swiftblade gishes. Swiftblade shares two prerequisite feats with Spelldancer, and provides its benefits fast (without delaying Swiftblade goodies very much), so it's a convenient combination.

[Getsugaru]

As others have said, the prerequisites make it difficult in many builds to add it. 4 feats is a lot in a standard game, where a non-human will have seven over the course of 20 levels. 7. Do you really want to spend more than half your standard feats on entry when playing a Wizard or similar?


Well, you know, the first rule of Spelldance Club... ahem.
That was close, Darrin. You almost broke the rules. :smalltongue:

[A_S]

N-no... it's skyrim... In skyrim you can infinitely stack enchanting and alchemy ontop of one another for game breaking results, literally healing all of your hp in the same game tick you take it, having 100% resists to practically everything, having 0 magicka cost spells across the board, and generally one shotting everything with any source of damage you have.

Because why not?!The unofficial patch fixed all that of course.
Also Morrowind, and as far as I know never fixed.

You could use this trick to buff your health to ridiculous levels via Fortify Health potions, and then equip Sunder and Keening (the two plot artifacts required to beat the game, both of which were supposed to kill you if you equipped them without the harder-to-obtain plot artifact Wraithguard, but actually did so by doing very large amounts of damage), thereby skipping almost the entire main quest.

[Xethik]

Also Morrowind, and as far as I know never fixed.

You could use this trick to buff your health to ridiculous levels via Fortify Health potions, and then equip Sunder and Keening (the two plot artifacts required to beat the game, both of which were supposed to kill you if you equipped them without the harder-to-obtain plot artifact Wraithguard, but actually did so by doing very large amounts of damage), thereby skipping almost the entire main quest.
Can confirm. The best part of Morrowind's version is that it is just alchemy, no need to bounce between two different skills. You just make Potions of Alchemy, which boost your alchemy skill by an amount based on your alchemy skill. So then the second potion of alchemy you make boosts your alchemy by even more, letting you make even more powerful potions of alchemy...

And yeah. Then you make some speed potions and fortify health potions and murder the **** out of Dagoth Ur, just after you started the game.

[A_S]

Can confirm. The best part of Morrowind's version is that it is just alchemy, no need to bounce between two different skills. You just make Potions of Alchemy, which boost your alchemy skill by an amount based on your alchemy skill. So then the second potion of alchemy you make boosts your alchemy by even more, letting you make even more powerful potions of alchemy...

And yeah. Then you make some speed potions and fortify health potions and murder the **** out of Dagoth Ur, just after you started the game.
I think it was Fortify Intelligence potions, rather than directly boosting your Alchemy skill (but Intelligence improved the quality of the potions you made).

That game had a lot of broken stuff. Kind of like 3.5. No wonder I liked it so much!