Using Vivacious Creature for arbitrarily high HP

[Jowgen]

Looking through templates for my little scaling SLA thread (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510902-Things-that-gain-more-SLAs-as-they-increase-in-HD) I noticed the Vivacious Creature template and thought there might be some use there.

The template makes you Incorporeal, gives some boring stuff like fast healing and limited SR, but most significantly gives a 10 ft positive energy aura that heals 1 HP/round and then heals above orignal HP, which the requires saves against exploding from positive energy as if on a positive dominant plane (DC 20 fort save/round).

At +5 LA, it is effectively useless for PCs, but if someone had Steadfast Determination and a Fort save bonus of +19, they'd be able to boost their HP endlessly (600 HP/hour) simply by using a captive vivacious creature. Extra issue is, these HP fade after 1d20 hours after leaving the positive area, so to be effective you need to stay within 10 ft of your captive Vivacious creature at all times (or at least return to there 1/hour, arguably).

So the goal here is to devise a means by which one can a) trap a vicacious (i.e. incorporeal) creature and b) carry that creature around in a way that it's positive energy aura continues to affect you.

[Mr Adventurer]

Vivacious Treant and Acorn of Far Travel?

[Doctor Despair]

Vivacious Treant and Acorn of Far Travel?

If that works, /thread, haha

[Inevitability]

Securing a vivacious creature is fortunately trivial. Using Halaster's Fetch II, call a vivacious giant fire beetle. Then, use Summon Undead IV to summon an allip and have it drain the beetle's wisdom to 0.

The beetle falls unconscious, which causes its aura to remain continuously active. Simply stand next to it and enjoy the free HP. Because it can't heal wisdom drain on its own and doesn't need food or drink, it'll remain in this state forever.

[Jowgen]

Securing a vivacious creature is fortunately trivial. Using Halaster's Fetch II, call a vivacious giant fire beetle. Then, use Summon Undead IV to summon an allip and have it drain the beetle's wisdom to 0.

The beetle falls unconscious, which causes its aura to remain continuously active. Simply stand next to it and enjoy the free HP. Because it can't heal wisdom drain on its own and doesn't need food or drink, it'll remain in this state forever.

That takes care of capture and containment most elegantly. Kudos. :smallsmile:

Now for keeping the creature within 10 ft at all times, I personally think it would be most practical to keep it around in a way that keeps its aura from affecting anything but the carrier (don't want to explode random people or heal enemies), or at least so that the aura only affects the carrier's 5 ft square. My initial thought was to use a Portable Hole or something of the sort, set up to be constantly open in the carrier's space; but that seems a tad clunky... :smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

That takes care of capture and containment most elegantly. Kudos. :smallsmile:

Now for keeping the creature within 10 ft at all times, I personally think it would be most practical to keep it around in a way that keeps its aura from affecting anything but the carrier (don't want to explode random people or heal enemies), or at least so that the aura only affects the carrier's 5 ft square. My initial thought was to use a Portable Hole or something of the sort, set up to be constantly open in the carrier's space; but that seems a tad clunky... :smallconfused:

Good news - it's a suppository.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Good news - it's a suppository.
I totally read that in his voice.

[Rijan_Sai]

This also works (by RAW, at least) for undead:

1) Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) have "•Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)."

2) They cannot have Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration) (due to "CON -",) but Fast Healing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing) is just fine!

(I used this idea for a (theory-crafted) high-level lich that uses Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) to create a Major Positive Dominant demi-plane, builds a "modest" castle, populates it with various undead minions and guards, and uses Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) to continue whatever naughtiness she was up to on the Material plane (in this case, adventuring!))

[GilesTheCleric]

There's at least two magical items that let you trap ghosts just like in Ghostbusters. I'm AFB, but I bet they're in LM. Edit: I revise my bet to Gw.

[Thurbane]

Vivacious Symbiont? Maybe something like a Gutworm so it can't be seen or targeted.

NI hit points and at will Rage! :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

It has an LA. Take it as a cohort.

It's not immune to mind-affecting effects. Cast Dominate Monster.

It's a Living creature. Try pairing Necrotic Cyst and Necrotic Tumor (Libris Mortis), although you may want a Ghost Touch Gauntlet or something to deliver the first spell.

[WhamBamSam]

Unless it clears subtypes, with the right base creature and domain choice, you can just rebuke the vivacious creature and have it follow you around under its own power.

[Novolin]

Unless it clears subtypes, with the right base creature and domain choice, you can just rebuke the vivacious creature and have it follow you around under its own power.

What Domain is that

[Jack_Simth]

What Domain is that
Lots of 'em. Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Cold, Plant, Scalykind, Slime, Warforged, and Spider all grant the ability to rebuke/command a certain kind of critter. There's probably more. You just need to find one that doesn't get nulled by the template, and match it to the critter (Plant is out, for instance, as it references type, which the Vivacious template changes to Outsider).

Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Cold all reference subtypes rather than types (again, there's probably more), and you just have to have a matching domain to the critter. As an example, a Vivacious Wyrmling White Dragon is an Ousider (Incorporal, Extraplanar, Cold, Augmented[Dragon]); a 6th level Cleric with the Cold domain can permanently enthrall the creature via the domain power.

[Jowgen]

Vivacious Symbiont? Maybe something like a Gutworm so it can't be seen or targeted.

NI hit points and at will Rage! :smalltongue:

I love the idea, as it's so flavourful and elegant, but it comes with problem.

The incorporeality granted by the template seems to make a lot of symbionts unviable, as their attachment process relies on physical contact. Only Ghostly visage and Shadow Sibling are already incoroporeal. Ghostly visage is obviously a no-go (unless you subscribe to Rijan_Sai's raw reading).

Shadow Sibling would work (in a weird shadow x light kind of way), though with that the aura will invariably also affect the environment. Fun part though, Shadow Siblings have Strenght as a non-ability, so they can suppress the aura at will. I think this is quite the powerful combo.


There's at least two magical items that let you trap ghosts just like in Ghostbusters. I'm AFB, but I bet they're in LM. Edit: I revise my bet to Gw.

Your revised bet paid off. Phasestone and Ghost Trap are the items in question, but they only work on Ghosts specifically, and have a limited number of uses. :smallfrown:


It has an LA. Take it as a cohort.

It's not immune to mind-affecting effects. Cast Dominate Monster.

It's a Living creature. Try pairing Necrotic Cyst and Necrotic Tumor (Libris Mortis), although you may want a Ghost Touch Gauntlet or something to deliver the first spell.

Cohort would work, though the Halaster's Fetch and Symbiont approaches seem more effective.

Dominate would work, but is most vulnerable to magic circles against X.

Necrotic also seems viable, though unless a character already uses them, I don't think it's efficient to go out of ones way to use that route.


Unless it clears subtypes, with the right base creature and domain choice, you can just rebuke the vivacious creature and have it follow you around under its own power.

This is most interesting. Worst case, you can add an Elemental subtype to make it viable.

Only thing I'm unclear on is whether the Command function is subject to certain counters. It's naturally not tagged as mind-affecting, but it might qualify as a mental control effect for the purposes of the Opposing Mental Control Effects rule.


Something that has just occured to me: are Incorporeal creatures permitted to enter living creatures? I recall there being some discussion about that at some point, but can't find it. If they can, a sufficiently small Vivacious creature that's under secure control could simply hide out inside its master's body to benefit them with its' aura, but without affecting the outside world.

However, to keep that advantage, there would also need to be a way to "box" the creature in. Perhaps some kind of force effect that creates a barrier around a creature to prevent incorpreal contact from the outside (and thus arguable keeps them in as well)? Even if there is nothing suitable there, a Riverine piece of armor might work (provided there is no movement in certain directions that might "dislodge" the vivacious creature)? Ergh... even with something like that, any given teleportation effect would still seperate the master from the vivacious creature, wouldn't it? I get the feeling Shadow Sibling is the only way to go this route with after all...

[Endarire]

A Pokeball? (Surely there's a D&D version of it!)

[Inevitability]

A Pokeball? (Surely there's a D&D version of it!)

Iron Flask?


Vivacious Symbiont? Maybe something like a Gutworm so it can't be seen or targeted.

NI hit points and at will Rage! :smalltongue:

What if an enemy casts Remove Disease?

[Thurbane]

What if an enemy casts Remove Disease?

Good point.

I think Jowgen's idea of Shadow Sibling may be better overall.

Although I am a big fan of Gutworm's on NPCs. This thread has now got me wondering what other templates or abilities could be put on them to empower the host.

[Pleh]

Ghosts have an ability to possess living creatures, but I don't know if incorporeal creatures do in general. I also don't know if the aura would persist while possessing a body.

I wonder if there's a way to get a familiar to gain this template?

[Jack_Simth]

Shadow Siblings have Strenght as a non-ability, so they can suppress the aura at will.That's inherent to being incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype):
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. (Emphasis added).

It's also mentioned in the template itself that a Vivacious creature has no strength score under the ability modifier section. The template is dysfunctional, the strength damage from the aura should likely be migrated to Charisma or something.

[Jowgen]

Huh. That did irk me for a moment, but I'd simply figured that I must've overlooked some clause about them keeping their Str (kinda like Ghosts, which have it for when they're not manifested). Checked the errata and yeah, that is a blatant dysfunction. They must've unwittingly copy-pasted from Entropic creature, the Negative Energy version...

For the switch to a different ability score, if the original one were Con I'd be with you on making it Cha (because undead stuff), but I think Dex is the most reasonable candidate here. Incorpreals sub it for Str when attacking, and the result of it being reduced to 0 is functionally the same (i.e. pseudo paralysis, as opposed to unconscious/dead). One might make an argument for Con, but they have that as a Non-ability as well (very strange, since they're aberations...). In either case, Shadow Simbiont continues to seem uniquely suited to this.

EDIT: To add further to the unique suitedness of the Shadow Sibling, the lack of Con score in spite of not being undead arguably makes these things ideal for getting the template onto them. They can't die due to the Positive Energy Plane's HP overload. Seems like an ideal base to get one to "adapt" to the conditions of the plane.