Throwing the net - always disadvantaged?

[Escribblings]

The net has a thrown range of 5/15.

Obviously, 6-15 is beyond normal range and incurs disadvantage.

But as the net is only ever thrown, does it incur disadvantage under 5 as per the ranged attack rules


Aiming a ranged attack is more difficult when a foe is next to you. When you make a ranged attack with a weapon, a spell, or some other means, you have disadvantage on the attack roll if you are within 5 feet of a hostile creature who can see you and who isn’t Incapacitated.

[Millstone85]

But as the net is only ever thrownIs it, though? Do you have to let go of the net as you envelop your opponent in it?

[Ninja_Prawn]

The net has a thrown range of 5/15.

Obviously, 6-15 is beyond normal range and incurs disadvantage.

But as the net is only ever thrown, does it incur disadvantage under 5 as per the ranged attack rules

According to the devs (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1900-D-D-5th-Edition-Sage-Advice-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VBMsu2OaVp5), yes it always has disadvantage.

You know, I never noticed that before. It makes sense that throwing a net very far is difficult and it also makes sense that it's hard to net someone who is right up in your face. But would it kill them to put in a sweet spot at 10 feet?

You can get around this with the Sharpshooter or Crossbow Master feats.

[Plaguescarred]

No not always - since there'd be no disadvantage if the adjacent enemy can't see you or is incapacitated - but most of the time it will.

[cobaltstarfire]

No not always - since there'd be no disadvantage if the adjacent enemy can't see you or is incapacitated - but most of the time it will.

Or if you happen to be a kobold with a friend nearby.

[Lombra]

It makes sense: you don't simply throw a net at something, you use it for a trap or for an ambush where you create an advantageous position for yourself canceling the innate disadvantage of the weapon.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I have no idea what RAI is on this, did they even recognize what RAW did?

Nets are messy and awkward, so I'd say go with it.

But I'd also say that if a PC want to try it, let the target AC = 10 plus DEX. A net is not trying to penetrate armor, and a shield really doesn't help. Disadvantaged is a BIG penalty (only 25% of success vs AC 10) already.

[The Shadowdove]

Give them one of these if they wanna catch people.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Man_catcher%2C_Germany%2C_1601-1800_Wellcome_L0057575.jpg/250px-Man_catcher%2C_Germany%2C_1601-1800_Wellcome_L0057575.jpg

Note: Google + man catcher = brutal

[ChildofLuthic]

You can get around this with the Sharpshooter or Crossbow Master feats.

"I'm good with nets, which is why they call me a Crossbow Expert."

[Millstone85]

"I'm good with nets, which is why they call me a Crossbow Expert.""I have efficiently brought eldritch blast to melee, which is why they call me a Crossbow Expert."

[Ninja_Prawn]

"I'm good with nets, which is why they call me a Crossbow Expert."

"Oh man, he's 15 feet away. If ever there was a need for our eagle-eyed sharpshooter, it's now!"


I have no idea what RAI is on this, did they even recognize what RAW did?

I already linked the SA from Mearls & Crawford. They intended it to always have disadvantage (unless you cancel it out or get a feat, as discussed).


Another thought: in some settings, you might want to include things like a bolas or lasso/lariat that have longer ranges or even finesse.

[Escribblings]

I already linked the SA from Mearls & Crawford. They intended it to always have disadvantage (unless you cancel it out or get a feat, as discussed)

And thank you for doing so as that dies clarify the situation RAW.

My gripe is this though, if that is what was intended - as stated - why didn't they give it a range of 0/15?

Because anyone who gains the advantage of surprise can throw normally.

Unless the DM is supposed to rule that even with surprise you are disadvantaged over 5'.

Also, it's a special weapon, so most characters won't have proficiency in it either.

Then think about the real world mechanics.

If you throw a 6'×6' net (think of a bed sheet or tablecloth), as you throw it you release one edge but his on to the other so that it opens up.

If you were to actually throw it away from you, you would do the same, but only release the edge closest to you just before it pulls taught.

Another reason to not apply disadvantage under 5'.

But RAW is RAW and it has been clarified, so it's up to DM's to house rule differently.

[cobaltstarfire]

I have no idea what RAI is on this, did they even recognize what RAW did?

Nets are messy and awkward, so I'd say go with it.

But I'd also say that if a PC want to try it, let the target AC = 10 plus DEX. A net is not trying to penetrate armor, and a shield really doesn't help. Disadvantaged is a BIG penalty (only 25% of success vs AC 10) already.

I wouldn't say all nets are messy and awkward, at least not on an initial throw.

Cast nets for example just require finesse, and the knowledge in how to throw one properly. Folks who use cast nets can already hit a moving target easily, and most cast nets cover a large area (5-15 foot radius). Though after an initial throw yeah, you probably won't get another one in, cause collecting it and getting it ready for another clean throw would take several rounds.

If I was making a new (cast) net, I'd make it a Dexterity save. Range is kind of weird because the battle grid though. I'd probably give it something weird like a 7/15 range or something like that. If someone tried to throw a cast net within melee range the worst they could probably do is entangle the opponents weapon, but that isn't really enough distance for the net to open enough to fully capture medium creatures.

[Escribblings]

Good point.

In fact, with your description of the cast net it would make sense for the net to have a range of 5/10/15 where a distance of 6-10 did not incur disadvantage.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Good point.

In fact, with your description of the cast net it would make sense for the net to have a range of 5/10/15 where a distance of 6-10 did not incur disadvantage.

I feel the same say. 10/15 range feels entirely believable, and it's not like nets are game-breakingly good.

[cobaltstarfire]

I figure I should also clarify something, because I feel I gave an imprecise description, when I say "5-15 foot radius" I meant the net part of a cast net is usually that large. There's another component to the net, a line you hold onto while throwing it, when you want to pull the net back you pull on the line and it pulls the net closed while you draw it in.

I last used a cast net when I was very young, and can't really remember the general length of it relative to the net. But the length of your line would also impose a hard limit to the upper range of such a net before it would close on itself.

[Vogonjeltz]

If they can't see you then there's no disadvantage at 5 feet; so invisibility, or hiding, works fine. A camouflaged ranger could throw a net on an enemy as they walk by, for example.

Actually come to think on it they would have advantage if hidden since the disadvantage wouldn't apply; normal at long range.

It would only be normal at normal range if the net throw was made on a charmed or not yet hostile opponent.

[JAL_1138]

Actually come to think on it they would have advantage if hidden since the disadvantage wouldn't apply; normal at long range.

What would remove the 5ft disadvantage? That the creature isn't hostile yet? I'm not entirely sure that works. Otherwise, even if hidden the advantage from being hidden would just cancel the disadvantage from being within 5ft, so your 5ft throw would be made normal, with neither advantage nor disadvantage.

Nevermind, the hostile creature needs to see you, per p.195. You're correct.

[Sabeta]

Wasn't there a really silly build a while back involving an Eldritch Knight, Sharpshooter, and declaring a Net as your second Eldritch Weapon. I know it wasn't exactly RAW, but the idea was to throw the net at an enemy and then teleport them to you and just start stabbing them while they were ensnared.

[Escribblings]

If they can't see you then there's no disadvantage at 5 feet; so invisibility, or hiding, works fine. A camouflaged ranger could throw a net on an enemy as they walk by, for example.

Actually come to think on it they would have advantage if hidden since the disadvantage wouldn't apply; normal at long range.

It would only be normal at normal range if the net throw was made on a charmed or not yet hostile opponent.

If hidden they would have neither advantage nor disadvantage as the advantage gained by surprise is cancelled by the fact the net is disadvantaged at all ranges as confirmed by the devs.

The link was posted in the one of the first replies to me.

Here it is again


Do nets (thrown) use STR or DEX for attack rolls? Are they exempt from close combat disadvantage, as normal range is only 5feet?
Dex, since you can't make melee attacks with it. still take disad in close combat despite range. -M

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1900-D-D-5th-Edition-Sage-Advice-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VBMsu2OaVp5#ixzz4V9gx6oRz

[Ninja_Prawn]

If hidden they would have neither advantage nor disadvantage as the advantage gained by surprise is cancelled by the fact the net is disadvantaged at all ranges as confirmed by the devs.

Actually I think Vogonjeltz is right on this one. The SA only applies under 'normal' circumstances, i.e. when the enemy can see you and isn't incapacitated. Being unseen prevents the melee disadvantage from occurring, while also bestowing advantage. So you end up with advantage on 5' attacks and advantage/disadvantage cancelling out on 10 and 15' attacks.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Actually I think Vogonjeltz is right on this one. The SA only applies under 'normal' circumstances, i.e. when the enemy can see you and isn't incapacitated. Being unseen prevents the melee disadvantage from occurring, while also bestowing advantage. So you end up with advantage on 5' attacks and advantage/disadvantage cancelling out on 10 and 15' attacks.

A weapon soooo complicated it needs it's own table to figure out the to hit roll...is one I am likely to ban for sake of simplicity unless someone else this time writes up the table

IF...
ATK is hidden and TGT unaware of ATK THEN 5' ADV 10' NORMAL 15'NORMAL

ATK has crossbow master feat but not hidden THEN----UNLESS----

SO who wants it? (puts index finger on nose)

[Zalabim]

A weapon soooo complicated it needs it's own table to figure out the to hit roll...is one I am likely to ban for sake of simplicity unless someone else this time writes up the table

IF...
ATK is hidden and TGT unaware of ATK THEN 5' ADV 10' NORMAL 15'NORMAL

ATK has crossbow master feat but not hidden THEN----UNLESS----

SO who wants it? (puts index finger on nose)

The weapon's attacks just follow the normal rules for ranged weapons. Do you need to ban ranged weapons? How about all ranged attacks?

[Escribblings]

Actually I think Vogonjeltz is right on this one. The SA only applies under 'normal' circumstances, i.e. when the enemy can see you and isn't incapacitated. Being unseen prevents the melee disadvantage from occurring, while also bestowing advantage. So you end up with advantage on 5' attacks and advantage/disadvantage cancelling out on 10 and 15' attacks.

Advantage and disadvantage don't stack.



If multiple situations affect a roll and each one grants advantage or imposes disadvantage on it, you don't roll more than one additional d20. If two favorable situations grant advantage, for example, you still roll only one additional d20.
If circumstances cause a roll to have both advantage and disadvantage, you are considered to have neither of them, and you roll one d20. His is true even if multiple
circumstances impose disadvantage and only one grants advantage or vice versa. In such a situation, you have neither advantage nor disadvantage.


So you can only throw normally if you have advantage as the net ALWAYS has disadvantage at all distances.

[Lombra]

A net thrown by someone won't ever be at advantage, except by feats means. It's pretty simple.

[JAL_1138]

Advantage and disadvantage don't stack.



So you can only throw normally if you have advantage as the net ALWAYS has disadvantage at all distances.

They don't need to. There's no disadvantage on ranged attacks in melee range if you are unseen.



"When you make a ranged attack with a weapon, spell, or some other means, you have disadvantage on the attack roll if you are within 5 feet of an enemy who can see you and who isn't incapacitated.
(emphasis added)

If you are within 5ft of an enemy who can't see you, your ranged attack rolls are not Disadvantaged. Since you are attacking a target who can't see you, your attack roll has Advantage.

[Escribblings]

Ahhhh - I get it now.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Thus why I'd consider a house rule of AC10+ DEX mod if the TGT is unaware. But that's overcomplicating it.

IMHO this thing needs to be rewritten as DEX or STR Advantaged Save or grappled/restrained with resave at start of TGT turn, perhaps the resaves are normal as there is no chance to dodge it. If TGT is not aware, then save is not advantaged.

[Saeviomage]

Why do I suspect that someone simply dropped the ball and then said "yeah, we meant to do that" afterwards?