The mailman, dragonblood and incantatrix

[Tamorlin]

It is possible to build the mailman without the dragonblood subtype for Practical Metamagic and/or the incantatrix? If so, how the build should look like?

[Inevitability]

Dragonwrought kobolds can get Practical Metamagic without having to be dragonblooded. :smalltongue:

[Pleh]

The marbles cold easily be considered ammunition for a sling. Get some magic enchantments and start using touch spells as far as you can sling them.

[Inevitability]

The marbles cold easily be considered ammunition for a sling. Get some magic enchantments and start using touch spells as far as you can sling them.

I believe you've replied to the wrong thread. :smalltongue:

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can, but you may lose some power. For example, you can mailman with something like this:


illumian cloistered cleric 1/wizard 5/dweomerkeeper 10 (not in order)

Which will get you some nice metamagic reduction, as well as significant spontaneous casting on your wizard side, though no persistomancy: you'll have to use something else. The sha'ir (and under some interpretations, Soutern Magician) offers even easier access to Dweomerkeeper, but the cleric level isn't a terrible loss: you compensate for the CL with illumian, and get a (metamagic) feat or two for free, plus skill points and Turn Undead.

A two-level dip in Wyrm Wizard can get you greater arcane fusion, but you need 7th-level spells (which your Improved Krau Sigil early entry boosts to 8). If you hold off WW until your 15th and 16th levels, you can use the last Mantle of Spells ability to spontaneously cast greater arcane fusion. Of course, Versatile Spellcaster will, if ruled to work for wizards, do a much better job than Mantle of Spells.

A two-level dip in Halruaan Elder can provide additional metamagic reduction, and five levels provides Circle Magic. The entry requirements are, however, moderately annoying.




In the end, almost nothing can compete with the Incantatrix' powerful abilities and low requirements. Even the bonus feats are making a huge difference, as metamagic is quite feat-intensive (Extend, Persist, Empower, Twin, Practical Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, Substitution + Admixture...).


P.S. You can probably do some sweet blasting with Dominant Ideal ardents, if you can keep the PP cost under control (Metapower is practical).

[Anthrowhale]

Two other sources of general metamagic reduction:

(1) Easy Metamagic (Dragon #325) -1.
(2) Tome Dragon (Dragon #343) as a Su ability that can be picked up with "Assume Supernatural Ability" or Shapechange. -1 to -3.

Hence a Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor(*) 2/Dweomerkeeper 10/?? 5 Shapechanged into a Tome Dragon using Versatile Spellcaster, Practical metamagic[Persistent Spell], and Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] can Persist or Twin spells for free. Greater Arcane Fusion(**) also works on metamagic spells if you can acquire Alternative Source Spell or Southern Magician and use Arcane Spellsurge to reduce the casting time of spontaneous metamagic spells to a standard action. This allows you to cast Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin L4, Twin L1], Twin L4] for the cost of 7 feats (Versatile Spellcaster, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Practical MM, Easy MM, Twin Spell, Alt Source Spell). As a bonus, you can nova with Supernatural Twin Wish[Twin GAF[Twin Limited Wish[Twin AF[Twin L4, Twin L1] ], Twin L4] ] 4 times/day at zero XP cost.

(*) Gives a domain which via Substitute Domain can provide access to Anyspell -> Arcane spellcasting and then again to get the magic domain to qualify for Dweomerkeeper.
(**) Acquired by one of numerous ways to scribe a divine scroll of course. Extra explicit is Customize Domain for the Magic Domain in Dragon #325.

[DualWeild]

You can, but you may lose some power. For example, you can mailman with something like this:


illumian cloistered cleric 1/wizard 5/dweomerkeeper 10 (not in order)

Which will get you some nice metamagic reduction, as well as significant spontaneous casting on your wizard side, though no persistomancy: you'll have to use something else. The sha'ir (and under some interpretations, Soutern Magician) offers even easier access to Dweomerkeeper, but the cleric level isn't a terrible loss: you compensate for the CL with illumian, and get a (metamagic) feat or two for free, plus skill points and Turn Undead.

A two-level dip in Wyrm Wizard can get you greater arcane fusion, but you need 7th-level spells (which your Improved Krau Sigil early entry boosts to 8). If you hold off WW until your 15th and 16th levels, you can use the last Mantle of Spells ability to spontaneously cast greater arcane fusion. Of course, Versatile Spellcaster will, if ruled to work for wizards, do a much better job than Mantle of Spells.

A two-level dip in Halruaan Elder can provide additional metamagic reduction, and five levels provides Circle Magic. The entry requirements are, however, moderately annoying.




In the end, almost nothing can compete with the Incantatrix' powerful abilities and low requirements. Even the bonus feats are making a huge difference, as metamagic is quite feat-intensive (Extend, Persist, Empower, Twin, Practical Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, Substitution + Admixture...).


P.S. You can probably do some sweet blasting with Dominant Ideal ardents, if you can keep the PP cost under control (Metapower is practical).


Both builds try to use greater arcane fusion. But they can not. Greater Arcane Fusion require Sorcerer Spells know



Arcane Fusion, Greater

(Complete Mage, p. 96)

Universal
Level: Sorcerer 8,
Components: V, S, see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You weave two powerful spells together in your mind and release them in a single intertwined display of magical prowess.
This spell works like arcane fusion, except that you choose any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell that you know and any 7th-level or lower sorcerer spell that you know to cast together.



Wizard Spell by RAW
Elder Evil pg. 54
Soelma Nilaenish CR 18
hp 104 (18 HD)
Female elf wizard 7/loremaster 10/rogue 1
NE Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven,
Giant, Gnome, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan
AC 20, touch 19, fl at-footed 16
Immune mind-affecting spells and abilities, magic sleep
effects
Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +12; +2 against enchantments
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +3 unholy rapier of spell storing +10/+5 (1d6–1 plus 2d6
against good/18–20)
Base Atk +8; Grp +7
Atk Options sneak attack +1d6
Special Actions Deformity (madness), Refl exive Psychosis
Combat Gear 3 potions of cure serious wounds, potion of lesser
restoration, potion of neutralize poison, potion of protection
from good
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 17th):
9th—crushing fi st of spiteBoVD (DC 27)
8th—greater shout (DC 24), Otto’s irresistible dance
7th—ghostformCAr, reverse gravity, whirlwind of teethBoVD
(DC 23)
6th—chain lightning (DC 22), greater dispel magic, mislead
(DC 22), summon monster VI, true seeing
5th—baleful polymorph (DC 21), cloudkill (DC 21), friend
to foePH2 (DC 21), greater blinkCAr, greater fireburstCAr
(DC 21)
4th—bestow curse (DC 20), burning bloodCAr, greater
invisibility, stoneskin, wall of fire
3rd—drownBoVD (DC 19), evil eyeBoVD (DC 19), greater mage
armorCAr, vampiric touch, vertigo fieldPH2 (DC 19)
2nd—cat’s grace, darkness, electric vengeancePH2, mirror
image (2), resist energy (2)
1st—bestow woundBoVD (DC 17), mage armor, magic missile
(2), shield, true strike
0—ghost sound (DC 16), mage hand, prestidigitation,
resistance
Abilities Str 8, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 22, Wis 7, Cha 12
SQ dodge trick (loremaster secret; +1 dodge bonus to AC),
trapfi nding
Feats Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Deformity
(madness)B, Forge Ring, Improved ToughnessLM, Maximize
SpellB, Quicken Spell, Refl exive Psychosis, Scribe
ScrollB,Willing Deformity
Skills Bluff +22, Concentration +22, Decipher Script +26,
Diplomacy +3, Disguise +1 (+3 acting), Gather Information
+21, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (arcana) +27, Knowledge
(history) +26, Listen +0, Search +13, Spellcraft +28,
Survival –2 (+0 following tracks)
Possessions combat gear plus +3 spell storing unholy rapier,
bracers of armor +1, ring of protection +5, boots of the winterlands,
6 potions of undetectable alignment




Wizards dont know sorcerer spell, Wizard know Wizard spells by RAW



https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55327963.jpg



Two other sources of general metamagic reduction:

(1) Easy Metamagic (Dragon #325) -1.
(2) Tome Dragon (Dragon #343) as a Su ability that can be picked up with "Assume Supernatural Ability" or Shapechange. -1 to -3.

Hence a Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor(*) 2/Dweomerkeeper 10/?? 5 Shapechanged into a Tome Dragon using Versatile Spellcaster, Practical metamagic[Persistent Spell], and Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] can Persist or Twin spells for free. Greater Arcane Fusion(**) also works on metamagic spells if you can acquire Alternative Source Spell or Southern Magician and use Arcane Spellsurge to reduce the casting time of spontaneous metamagic spells to a standard action. This allows you to cast Twin Greater Arcane Fusion[Twin Arcane Fusion[Twin L4, Twin L1], Twin L4] for the cost of 7 feats (Versatile Spellcaster, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Practical MM, Easy MM, Twin Spell, Alt Source Spell). As a bonus, you can nova with Supernatural Twin Wish[Twin GAF[Twin Limited Wish[Twin AF[Twin L4, Twin L1] ], Twin L4] ] 4 times/day at zero XP cost.

(*) Gives a domain which via Substitute Domain can provide access to Anyspell -> Arcane spellcasting and then again to get the magic domain to qualify for Dweomerkeeper.
(**) Acquired by one of numerous ways to scribe a divine scroll of course. Extra explicit is the Arcane Disciple cleric ACF in Dragon #311.



The BIG problem to be Dragon is... Hide from dragon spell can be dangerous.
Please, do not be an archivist or cleric. A simple Evil Weather spell/ Malefic Propriety (Elder Evil) can end your game.

Wait, WAIT? How will you achieve a divine scroll of greater arcane fusion(Its sorcerer only, not Sorcerer/Wizard list)? LOL

[Troacctid]

Dragonwrought kobolds can get Practical Metamagic without having to be dragonblooded. :smalltongue:
They have the dragonblood subtype, yes, so I believe they actually cannot?

[DualWeild]

They have the dragonblood subtype, yes, so I believe they actually cannot?
They are dragons, automatically qualify to dragonblood subtype requirement.

[Troacctid]

Well yeah, but if they always have the dragonblood subtype, then they can't do it without having the dragonblood subtype, because they do have it, right?

[DualWeild]

yes, they qualify
Dragons automatically qualifty to dragonblood. (Races of the dragons)

[Anthrowhale]

...


You post appears off-topic, as your build is not in a mailman style. I'd give it a 95% LordDrako.



Wizards dont know sorcerer spell, Wizard know Wizard spells by RAW


You seem to be arguing that a sorcerer/wizard spell that a wizard knows is not a sorcerer spell. This requires stronger proof than assertion.



The BIG problem to be Dragon is... Hide from dragon spell can be dangerous.
Please, do not be an archivist or cleric. A simple Evil Weather spell/ Malefic Propriety (Elder Evil) can end your game.


These are irrelevant for the original question.



Wait, WAIT? How will you achieve a divine scroll of greater arcane fusion(Its sorcerer only, not Sorcerer/Wizard list)? LOL

Feel free to look into the reference given.

[DualWeild]

You post appears off-topic, as your build is not in a mailman style. I'd give it a 95% LordDrako.

You seem to be arguing that a sorcerer/wizard spell that a wizard knows is not a sorcerer spell. This requires stronger proof than assertion.

Feel free to look into the reference given.

Sorcerer king build is Mailman 5.0

It's proven all that said above, Wizard Spell is not Sorcerer Spell know. Just read above, Wish also quotes, Wizard OR Sorcerer spell. Being Different by RAW.

I've seen your reference, your build does not have access to greater arcane fusion.

[Inevitability]

The problem is simple: each of you are interpreting the rules in a certain way, and both of you are stubbornly sticking to your own interpretation. Without a doubt one of you is right, but I don't think the other party is going to agree anyway.

LordDrako, do you really think that you're going to change Anthrowhale's viewpoint?

Anthrowhale, do you really think that you're going to change LordDrako's viewpoint?


If the answer is 'no', consider just stopping this discussion.

[DualWeild]

The problem is simple: each of you are interpreting the rules in a certain way, and both of you are stubbornly sticking to your own interpretation. Without a doubt one of you is right, but I don't think the other party is going to agree anyway.

LordDrako, do you really think that you're going to change Anthrowhale's viewpoint?

Anthrowhale, do you really think that you're going to change LordDrako's viewpoint?


If the answer is 'no', consider just stopping this discussion.


All My viewpoint is based by RAW.

He is using a cleric alternative concept. But this is a serious problem.
1) He is not an alternative cleric(He's a Archivist)
2) He can not add Greater Arcane Fusion, the spell must be Sorcerer / Wizard list or Bard List, Arcane Fusion is Sorcerer only spell.
3) If it optimizes an allied, this is just a Theorical Optimization.
4) He does not have Sorcerer Spell know.

He can't do it, by RAW.

But still is a powerful build,
I make these observations, but, he's a good optimizer. I particularly love your ExFighter build. I hope your build is legal.

[Anthrowhale]

1) He is not an alternative cleric(He's a Archivist)

This is true, but irrelevant. Stated another way, when building a character, you need not establish that the character can craft all items owned. The only important question is whether or not a divine scroll can exist. Given that, maybe you buy it, maybe you just wish for it, or maybe you buy a scroll of wish and use that to wish for it. It does not matter which, because wealth by level is nowhere near used up.



2) He can not add Greater Arcane Fusion, the spell must be Sorcerer / Wizard list or Bard List, Arcane Fusion is Sorcerer only spell.

This is correct, to my surprise. I adjusted to point out that you can unambiguously get it with Customize Domain[Magic].



3) If it optimizes an allied, this is just a Theorical Optimization.


I can't follow this. If the complaint is that the build is too powerful for normal play, I agree.



4) He does not have Sorcerer Spell know.


Many cleric spells are also Sorcerer spells, so this is a nonissue in my view. I don't believe you can effectively argue that a known cleric spell which is also a sorcerer spell is not a known sorcerer spell.

If you want to argue that the same spell is a different spell when cast by two different classes, then that has implications on stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects) which makes everyone uncomfortable. For instance, "Cloud Wings" would stack when cast by a Druid and an Archivist if an Archivist spell is different from a Druid Spell. To avoid stacking we must admit they are the same spell.

You could also try to argue that "sorcerer spell that you know" is referring to some special thing rather than a spell that is known and on the sorcerer spell list. I'm not aware of any convincing argument here since many other classes are explicitly described as "knowing" spells under various conditions and that particular phrase does not come up in the sorcerer description.