War Cleric

[Trask]

I'm playing D&D 5e for the first time after DMing it for a while. The rest of my party is a fighter, ranger and bard. I'm thinking about a Cleric and I rolled up these stats.

11,18,13,8,12,13

I want to use heavy armor and melee along with my magic so I decided on the war domain. These stats are not incredibly conducive to MAD which the war domain is a bit. How would you build this? I was thinking V human and taking war caster or sentinel and arranging the stats like this

Str: 14
Dex: 11
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

[djreynolds]

I'm playing D&D 5e for the first time after DMing it for a while. The rest of my party is a fighter, ranger and bard. I'm thinking about a Cleric and I rolled up these stats.

11,18,13,8,12,13

I want to use heavy armor and melee along with my magic so I decided on the war domain. These stats are not incredibly conducive to MAD which the war domain is a bit. How would you build this? I was thinking V human and taking war caster or sentinel and arranging the stats like this

Str: 14
Dex: 11
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

Hill/Mountain dwarf nature cleric. Grab shillelagh as druid cantrip. Focus on con and wisdom, all at 1st level.

[Sander]

That's a darn high wis score, have you considered either a druid dip or the magic initiate feat for shillelagh (and find familiar for constant advantage if going for the feat)? Utilizing wis for atk/dmg as well as casting is... AWESOME! Said quarterstaff would work with sentinel and PAM too, if you're so inclined

[Willie the Duck]

I would tend to agree with a shillelagh build for these stats. I hate always going that route, and a two-handed weapon wielding str-based war cleric is an idea I really want to see play out, but with these rolls, I don't see it being very good.

An alternative to a dwarven nature cleric would be to arrange your stats as such:
Str: 11
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 12
(or move the 11 to int, for knowledge skill checks)

And then be a medium armor wearing vHuman Life Cleric. With your initial feat, take Magic Initiate (druid), and pick up shillelagh (same as nature cleric), thorn whip (useful for dragging opponents into your sacred guardian radius), and goodberry (with life cleric, each berry heals 4 hp, so that's 40 hp/day healing at level 1).

It depends on which domain's spells you consider more useful, whether you want the dwarves' darkvision, and roleplaying elements.

Honestly, there are few bad choices. Even without shillelagh, a only-high-Wis build is fine using sacred flame instead of a melee weapon most of the time.

[Trask]

I considered shillelagh and it does seem potent, but what I dont like is how it will be competing for my bonus action with the war cleric ability, spiritual weapon and sometimes healing word.

obv i could just not be a war domain cleric but that was kind of my idea for it and nature doesnt really appeal to me in any other way for me to justify it just for shillelagh


I see what youre saying though, the strength is not amazing. Maybe just tough it out until i hit level 4 and i take my ASI to my strength to bring it to 16?

[Willie the Duck]

I see what youre saying though, the strength is not amazing. Maybe just tough it out until i hit level 4 and i take my ASI to my strength to bring it to 16?

Or start out 18 Strength and 14 Wisdom.

Regardless, you are running into the problem that the main benefit of martial strength weapons is that they work well with feats like PAM, sentinel, GWF, etc. Without those feats, it's not worth building up a warrior-type character from a class that never gets extra attack, but with those feats, it'll be hard to get both your Wis and Str up to reasonable levels.

Unless RP trumps effectiveness, I would suggest holding off on the war cleric until you can roll stats that with the right race you can start with wis and str of 16+.

[Sander]

You could, sure... But do note that shillelagh only takes a single bonus and then lasts a minute. So it'd only compete with other actions the very first round, and this is assuming you're surprised and couldn't reasonably cast it beforehand. As such, shillelagh is still rather efficient, imo

[GorogIrongut]

Whenever I see someone playing a cleric with an 18 in Wisdom (pre racial modifiers), I can't help but think they NEED to play an Arcana cleric. You get so many bonuses from it that in the long run it's awesome.

IF, you don't want to go the Arcana route, then go for the new Forge Cleric. Lots of magic and lots of combat.

While for the first couple of levels, V Human will seem better, I would still recommend you go Hill Dwarf. Even with an odd wisdom (19), you're still hit pointed up, resistent to poison and have darkvision. Combine that with the extra constitution and your hit points should be within the range of what you want for being a melee character.

[Trask]

Or start out 18 Strength and 14 Wisdom.

Regardless, you are running into the problem that the main benefit of martial strength weapons is that they work well with feats like PAM, sentinel, GWF, etc. Without those feats, it's not worth building up a warrior-type character from a class that never gets extra attack, but with those feats, it'll be hard to get both your Wis and Str up to reasonable levels.

Unless RP trumps effectiveness, I would suggest holding off on the war cleric until you can roll stats that with the right race you can start with wis and str of 16+.

What if I started as a half orc/mountain dwarf instead of a human? I was considering those races also.

[Sander]

Well, I mean.. You'd start with 20 wisdom with dwarf. Very little would beat that...

[Trask]

Well, I mean.. You'd start with 20 wisdom with dwarf. Very little would beat that...

I think the hill dwarf only gets a +1 to wis? If im not mistaken

[Sander]

Entirely correct. Not sure where I got that from... Oh well. Mountain dwarf could however put you at 15/15/18 for str/con/wis. Your first ASI would push those 15's to 16's.. Not bad tbh

[Willie the Duck]

What if I started as a half orc/mountain dwarf instead of a human? I was considering those races also.

Well, then you could start out with 15 Str/18 Wis or 20 str/14 Wis. Firbolg could gets you 3 additional points in the Wis-Str category (14/20 or 19/15).

None of these address the central point: If you are going to bother creating a martial-weapon-based character out of a cleric, you need to address their lack of extra attack (otherwise you may as well be casting sacred flame). To do so, you need to take feats (PAM-Sentinel-GWF line to increase attacks and damage, or war caster/resilient:con so you can be reasonably assured to keep plugging with spiritual weapon and/or spiritual guardians when frontlining, or some specific build like mobility and magic initiate to pick up booming blade or something). These conflict with your desire to use ASIs to bring up your lagging attribute.

I don't know what you are expecting to hear from us. You've been screwed by your rolls for the build you want to make. I'm not going to say don't do this, since fun trumps effectiveness, but I would not suggest it from a strategic standpoint.

Edit: I see that some people think starting 15/15/18 would work, and it would... it's just a 4 level delay on getting to what makes a war cleric stand out.

[jaappleton]

Well, then you could start out with 15 Str/18 Wis or 20 str/14 Wis. Firbolg could gets you 3 additional points in the Wis-Str category (14/20 or 19/15).

None of these address the central point: If you are going to bother creating a martial-weapon-based character out of a cleric, you need to address their lack of extra attack (otherwise you may as well be casting sacred flame). To do so, you need to take feats (PAM-Sentinel-GWF line to increase attacks and damage, or war caster/resilient:con so you can be reasonably assured to keep plugging with spiritual weapon and/or spiritual guardians when frontlining, or some specific build like mobility and magic initiate to pick up booming blade or something). These conflict with your desire to use ASIs to bring up your lagging attribute.

I don't know what you are expecting to hear from us. You've been screwed by your roles for the build you want to make. I'm not going to say don't do this, since fun trumps effectiveness, but I would not suggest it from a strategic standpoint.

He's entirely correct.

Clerics are not warriors. They're armored spellcasters.

To get them doing respectable weapon damage past level 4, you need to really specialize your build. This requires Feats. In a world where they only get so many, every so often, it almost requires you to start as a VHuman.

The only 'shortcut' is to do it with an alternative build. In this case, VHuman Arcana Cleric using SCAG cantrips, with Magic Initiate to use the cantrips with Wisdom. However, the SCAG cantrips like GFB and BB are somewhat... You get one attack roll. That's it. One swing. Hit or miss. And missing SUCKS. You can help yourself a bit with Bless, but without a reliable well to get Advantage, be prepared to wait quite awhile for your turn only to get one swing and... hope.

[Pex]

Or start out 18 Strength and 14 Wisdom.

Regardless, you are running into the problem that the main benefit of martial strength weapons is that they work well with feats like PAM, sentinel, GWF, etc. Without those feats, it's not worth building up a warrior-type character from a class that never gets extra attack, but with those feats, it'll be hard to get both your Wis and Str up to reasonable levels.

Unless RP trumps effectiveness, I would suggest holding off on the war cleric until you can roll stats that with the right race you can start with wis and str of 16+.

Spiritual Weapon is the "extra attack", though that does lend to wanting Shillelagh. Still, 2d8 + 6 is nice to have without it (1d8 + 2 weapon, 1d8 + 4 spell). Those feats are nice and if a cleric can get them early, great, but they aren't absolutely necessary. Let the warrior classes do their thing. When the warriors are doing Extra Attack at 5th level with PAM and/or GWF, the cleric has his regular weapon, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians. He has nothing to complain about.

Shillelagh is not necessary. With Wisdom at 18 already the War Cleric has room to grow. Variant Human for Warcaster feat at 1st level. Put racial +1s in ST and CO. At 4th level put +1 in both again for 16s. At 8th level determine for yourself if 16 ST is good enough for you, at least for then up to 12th level. If no, make it 18. If yes, WI to 20 is now tempting or you can enjoy another feat. Alternate route: Mountain Dwarf for race and take Warcaster at 4th level.

[Willie the Duck]

Spiritual Weapon is the "extra attack", though that does lend to wanting Shillelagh. Still, 2d8 + 6 is nice to have without it (1d8 + 2 weapon, 1d8 + 4 spell). Those feats are nice and if a cleric can get them early, great, but they aren't absolutely necessary. Let the warrior classes do their thing. When the warriors are doing Extra Attack at 5th level with PAM and/or GWF, the cleric has his regular weapon, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians. He has nothing to complain about.

Yes, but you can do the whole Spiritual Weapon/ Spirit Guardians thing while dropping sacred flames instead of striding in with your prof+2 to hit, d8+2 damage weapon attack. If you don't have war caster and/or resilient:con, that's what you'd better do. This was all mentioned in the post you are referencing. Likewise, if you are looking at a 1d8 weapon, you are doing avg. 1 point more than the non-war cleric coming in with a mace. In which case, what is the point of going war cleric? This is general fine advise on the subject of how to make a cleric, but that's not what we're talking about.


Shillelagh is not necessary. With Wisdom at 18 already the War Cleric has room to grow. Variant Human for Warcaster feat at 1st level. Put racial +1s in ST and CO. At 4th level put +1 in both again for 16s. At 8th level determine for yourself if 16 ST is good enough for you, at least for then up to 12th level. If no, make it 18. If yes, WI to 20 is now tempting or you can enjoy another feat. Alternate route: Mountain Dwarf for race and take Warcaster at 4th level.

If he chooses VHuman, and puts his +1s in STR and CON, he will have 14s. If he wants a 16 in both Str and Con, he will have to wait until 8th level. He can then decide if 16 str is enough at level 12. He can still do this, and I have said repeatedly that he should if the roleplaying aspects overrule the optimization ones. However, his melee capacity is going to be quickly outpaced by even his own cantrips, which he can use without the strength investment. So again, separating out by pre-stipulation roleplaying reasons or he just really wants to play this guy as a underwhelming war cleric, what is the point of this decision?

[BigONotation]

If I rolled 11,18,13,8,12,13 for a War Cleric I'd go Hill Dwarf with this arrangement:
STR 13
DEX 12
CON 18 (20)
INT 11
WIS 13 (14)
CHA 8

Heavy Armor is no longer debilitating because I'm a Dwarf.
Use a Warhammer and Shield.
All my ASIs go to WIS.
My "Extra Attack" is Spiritual Weapon (2nd level spell).
My badass melee spell is Spiritual Guardians (3rd level).
WIS times a day Extra Attack as a Bonus Action for when I don't have Spiritual Weapon up.
Bless for when I can't or don' want to Spirit Guardians.

Heavy armor clerics are melee badasses, they just don't gain their attacks traditionally.

[poolio]

I think OP might be looking at war cleric the same way i used to, like most here i would have to agree with just focusing on getting wis to 20 asap, the weapon proficiencys are nice and all, but the war cleric (or any of the clerics for that matter) are not really meant to be fighting with melee, they should be a row or two back, using spiritual weapon and guardians to rack up damage, and up casting inflict wounds using their Channel devinity to help insure a heavy hit, should they need to,

I think you should take a look at the Eldritch knight, i was really skeptical about it, i hated how few spells he had and how few slots to use them, but after trying one out finally, I'm having trouble wanting to play anything else right now lol he's pretty much exactly what i thought a war cleric should be, lots of sword swinging, cut 'em action, and probably one of the best tanks around, I've lost count of how many attacks he's been able to just shield away, he once held off four bandits when only he and one other from my group got jumped in a city ally, okay before i ramble on about how much i love the EK let me suggest a built that might suit your tastes :smallsmile:

V human
Str 18
Dex 11
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 8 (switch wis and cha if you like, i just like having a better perception myself, and there's usually someone better at social situations anyway)

And for the feat, take War caster, or Magic initiate, get whatever you like, personal i like war caster, advantage on concentration saves could come in handy later, as well as being able to booming blade anyone that wants to try to get away from you, you'll do more melee damage, have a decent cantrip with ether Firebolt or chill touch for a ranged option, and you can always give him the acolyte background if you want him to "feel" more like a holy warrior.

I'm sure you'll love this class/build if you try it, I played a war cleric before the EK and the EK feels exactly like how i hoped the cleric would but fell short.

Whatever you go with, have fun! May the rolls be ever in your favor :smallwink:

[ApplePen]

I play a war cleric and I gotta say, you will rock the low levels like crazy.

Variant Human for Magic Initiate is actually optional, since you won't be relying on weapon attacks most of the time. Starting from lv 3 you'll get Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon, which are going to be your mainstays for the rest of your career.

Magic initiate for shillelagh does let you make better use of your divine inspiration, and will help on those occasions where you don't get a long rest for a string of encounters. Personally I grabbed heavy armor master for the DR 3/magic, as it helps when maintaining concentration.

I concur with the 14 STR/CON 18 WIS start.

A war cleric is really not a DPS machine so much as a front line force multiplier. You can flank an enemy for the rogue AND spiritual weapon flank for the fighter while putting some hurt on the enemy with Spirit Guardians. Your standard can be reserved for casting spells. I'm lv 11 and my first round of any combat is still "Spirit Guardians, spiritual weapon and move to flank something"

I usually use my reaction to turn a fighter miss into a hit.

[Gignere]

The following is how I plan to build my "War Cleric"

Battle Master 6 - Defense style
Nabbing HAM at 1, +2 Str at level 4, GWM at level 6.

Now start War Cleric levels.

So at level 8 this build comes together, bless+ precise + channel divinity means you will just constantly power attack. If you don't roll a crit or kill something, use the wis bonus action or at level 9 cast spirit weapon. Continue with as many cleric levels as you like and go back to fighter if you like more feats.

Current plan is 8 BM and 8 Cleric the campaign that I plan to use this guy should end by then.

[Saggo]

Clerics function just fine in melee, if built right. With the introduction of Booming/Greenflame Blade and using Divine Strike, offensive power is no longer an issue for Clerics and "just armored spellcasters" is no longer applicable. Trickery is the only one that still struggles, but War, Tempest, and Nature will do fine.


I want to use heavy armor and melee along with my magic so I decided on the war domain.

Depends on what you really intend to do with bringing magic into melee.

Here's an option if you're not hooked on using offensive magic as much:

Variant Human, Tempest or War
Mage Initiate for Booming and/or Greenflame Blade and Find Familiar (Owl Help for Adv)
18 Str, 14 Con, 14 Wisdom

Level 4 take War Caster, then use ASIs for Wisdom and maybe one for 20 Str at some point. Spiritual Weapon will be inaccurate for a while but it's always available.

It's not optimal for a frontliner, but you'll have good damage (the d8s from BB/GFB and Divine Strike match pace with Fighter's extra attacks for reference) and bring all the Cleric heals and buffs. Eventually your Spell DC will be catch up too. The biggest thing you'll be missing is a good Con for max HP.

[Pex]

Ok, misread/misinterpreted stat array.

Still good to go for Variant Human. ST to 16 at 4th level still happens. 14 CO is not terrible. Mountain Dwarf still gives equivalency. Healing Word on yourself as necessary. You're a cleric who can handle himself well enough in melee, not a fighter, so don't fret you're not a fighter. You have Bless when you need that plus to hit (and/or saving throw bonus) and Shield of Faith when you need not to get hit instead. Spirit Guardians is for when you want to control crowds. The character will be fine.

[Addaran]

If you want a "war" cleric feel, you could go with 18 in str and take Shield Master. Focus on being the off-tank with your eventual 20 AC and support with your bonus action trip. Your wis will only be 14 at first, but it doesn't matter that much for healing word (just want to stave off death saves), bless, and other buffing spells. Even thing like spirit guardian, it only affect the DC for half damage, not directly how much damage you do.

Bonus trip will compete with your free war cleric attack, but it's only a few times a day. When you want damage instead of trip, you can use them.

Just for perspective, with 18 str and athletic trained, you'll have more then 50% chance to succeed tripping the likes of trolls and ogres at lvl 1.

[KnotaGuru]

Have you thought of arcane cleric? vHuman w/magic initiate (Druid) feat for shillelagh (and possibly goodberry and mold earth for fun). You'd have medium armor + shield + DEX for AC which equates to 1 lower AC than plate & shield. You'd also have better DEX saves and initiative. You get 2 free wizard cantrips (GFB and/or BB, could also take firebolt/ray of frost/or chill touch for a ranged attack roll cantrip with your other selection). At level 1, you'd have 7 cantrips (3 from cleric, 2 from feat, 2 from arcane domain)! And, you add WIS mod to all cantrip damage at 8th level :smallsmile:

You don't have the strength for heavy armor unless you go dwarf, but then you're out a feat and move a little slower. Arcane cleric keeps the build SAD and does more damage with cantrips so you can easily switch between melee or ranged. Don't worry about the bonus action cast time of shillelagh, it lasts 1 minute and it's a cantrip, so spam cast it all day long! The domain spells are not as sexy as the war domain spells but do add some versatility (arcane eye might make your DM cry and magic weapon could be very helpful). If you do make it to 17th level, congrats, you get to cherry-pick some potent wizard spells.

Here's my suggested array:
Str: 11 (high enough to carry your gear)
Dex: 14 (a little more agile than most)
Con: 14 (a little tougher than most)
Int: 12 (you might have the highest INT in the party, plus you do worship an arcane god you can't be an idiot, let the fighter take that title)
Wis: 18 (now the only stat you really need)
Cha: 8 (let the bard do the talking)

Level 1 vHuman feat: Magic Initiate (Druid)
Level 4 ASI: warcaster
Level 8 ASI: +2 WIS
Level 12/16/19 ASI: have fun (Lucky, Alert...)

[Arkhios]

If OP is up for multiclassing, 6 levels of Eldritch Knight might be good. I know that would leave you without War Magic (7th level feature to attack as a bonus action after you've cast a spell), but 7th level is wasted on total spellcasting level.

With 6 levels of EK, you would...:
...technically lose only 4 levels of total spellcasting
...get extra attack.
...get two ASI. (Still a total of 5 with cleric 14)
...get fighting style.
...have proficiency in Constitution saves (great for caster). Although, you'd have to start with Fighter.
...get action surge (you know how you can only cast a spell other than cantrip once? Guess what, 1/rest with Action Surge, you can do that twice!)
...get second wind for 1d10+6 HP regain with bonus action, 1/rest.
...have a rather neat Weapon Bond and summon your weapon to you.
...have total spellcasting up to 16th level, meaning you'd get 8th level spell slot, even though you'd only have up to 7th level cleric spells known. But, you'd also know a few 1st level abjuration and evocation spells from wizard!)

What's best, you could use your first race/stat combination for full effect; EK doesn't require you to have high intelligence. Most wizard abjuration spells work just fine without any intelligence! (Shield, for example, but there are many more) Also, you could choose to have Find Familiar for a little extra reach for your healing (or other touch) spells.

[djreynolds]

Agreed EK is a better dip the battlemaster, just use your slots to cast cleric spells or defensive eldritch Knight spells.

But for me, my hill dwarf life cleric did fine with a 14 strength. Your spells are your power, the only heavy lifting is your armor.

Get in the middle of stuff and cast away. Buff your party. By 8th level your wisdom is maxed, grab resilient con at 12th and then max out strength. Too easy