Sherlock Season 4 [Expect Spoilers]

[DomaDoma]

We're one episode in and my centerpiece theory for the season (on Mary's backstory) has already turned out to be a bust. But then, what else is new? My centerpiece theories have fallen through since I began making them. (Which does, on the bright side, bode well for the Empire of Tamriel.) And the track record for adapting Valley of Fear makes my own track record look downright sterling. It's been done all of three times - two that were so badly handled that it was not at all apparent there was supposed to be a twist, and one lost silent film we can probably mark for a ditto.

But I have to take it as a very ominous sign that everyone who liked this episode is firmly convinced that it's not strictly representing reality, and then goes on to propose a theory which, on screen, would be even MORE baffling than Six Thatchers already was.

I'd simplify. It's an incoherent pile of coagulated soap opera. And that just breaks my heart into little pieces.

[DallerMan]

Adore Sherlock series, new season really good

[Kato]

Adore Sherlock series, new season really good

Well, that's... Compact?

I need to watch the latest episode, tomorrow probably.

First one was a mixed batch.. Overall I was entertained enough, though still not up to the old glory, but I hated the final bits. Like, why? WHY? Maybe we'll get some resolution but overall I'm suspicious on whether it will be convincing...

[grimbold]

First one was a mixed batch.. Overall I was entertained enough, though still not up to the old glory, but I hated the final bits. Like, why? WHY? Maybe we'll get some resolution but overall I'm suspicious on whether it will be convincing...

I agree... it seemed like a sort of Sherlock 'best of' but at the same time they've been away for like... more than 2 years so you can hardly expect them to be on top of their game right away. They need to reacclimate old fans and introduce new fans.

[Legato Endless]

Well, that's... Compact?

I think it's a bot.

[Asmodean_]

Why would Mary take a bullet for Sherlock anyway?

If she has time to jump in front of the bullet, he has time to move.

[Dienekes]

Why would Mary take a bullet for Sherlock anyway?

If she has time to jump in front of the bullet, he has time to move.

She's a highly trained super spy in peak physical condition.

He's an arrogant selfish prick who is delusional about his own infallibility who admittedly is somewhat talented at punching people.

[Joran]

Why would Mary take a bullet for Sherlock anyway?

If she has time to jump in front of the bullet, he has time to move.

I'm more puzzled why it even got to that point.

She's a super agent who's confronting the person who killed her friends/family. I'd have thought she'd put a bullet in the woman's head before she could even raise the gun.

[Olinser]

Why would Mary take a bullet for Sherlock anyway?

If she has time to jump in front of the bullet, he has time to move.

Because bullets travel at the Speed of Plot, that's why.

[DomaDoma]

Still not as contrived as John's affair. And the affair wasn't even contrived in the sense of facilitating anything else in the plot. It's just... the OOC. It burns.

New episode's out. Word says Culvy is every bit as creepy as he ought to be. But I think I'll wait for the all-clear from you guys. You're picky. Usually too picky, but that last episode burned me but hard.

[Nai_Calus]

The second episode was a lot better than the first. It still wasn't great but I didn't hate it and I'll watch the third one now.

[grimbold]

The second episode was a lot better than the first. It still wasn't great but I didn't hate it and I'll watch the third one now.

It was solid - It just feels like now the show is more dedicated to creating loosely connected movies rather than a proper tv show. Does that make sense?

[DomaDoma]

Yeah. It's like, their new artistic focus is on psychedelic montage cuts as framing device. I mean, there were significant amounts of deduction in this one. As well as a very good Culverton Smith (shoot, he even looked the part, and that's no mean feat; I always pictured him looking like Victoria's dad from The Corpse Bride.) But the whole game of figuring out what this or that random cut has to do with anything currently going on... not a fan. Nor am I a fan of the way Sherlock sounded exactly as self-medicated in the first episode as he did in the second, where he WAS self-medicated. It's just so strange to film Sherlock Holmes, a story that's about high reasoning if it's about anything, in such a fundamentally disorienting style.

But I did like this one a lot better. For the reasons already listed, but also because I went in knowing that, as far as Dying Detective is concerned, Jeremy Brett had the competition in the bag.

[grimbold]

It's just so strange to film Sherlock Holmes, a story that's about high reasoning if it's about anything, in such a fundamentally disorienting style.

This. I want Sherlock to be fairly clean cut and precise. This is... overwhelming.

[random11]

Saw the third episode, and I'm not sure what I feel about it...



The sister's ability to control someone after just a few minutes of conversation goes beyond what I'm willing to believe and WAY into the territory of sci-fi.
I find it funny that almost at the same time a character from "The Librarians" got more or less the same ability.

The ending was also "huh?". I mean, really? All she needed was a hug?

There is also the point that I generally dislike "escape room" episodes, but that's a personal preference.

Still there are a few points that I can give the episode.
The part with the glass was awesome, the revelation about the plane was also good, and I'm also not against a plot based on Sherlock's repressed memories

[Noldo]

She's a highly trained super spy in peak physical condition.

He's an arrogant selfish prick who is delusional about his own infallibility who admittedly is somewhat talented at punching people.

Together, they fight crime? (http://theyfightcrime.net/)

[huttj509]

Saw the third episode, and I'm not sure what I feel about it...



The sister's ability to control someone after just a few minutes of conversation goes beyond what I'm willing to believe and WAY into the territory of sci-fi.
I find it funny that almost at the same time a character from "The Librarians" got more or less the same ability.

The ending was also "huh?". I mean, really? All she needed was a hug?

There is also the point that I generally dislike "escape room" episodes, but that's a personal preference.

Still there are a few points that I can give the episode.
The part with the glass was awesome, the revelation about the plane was also good, and I'm also not against a plot based on Sherlock's repressed memories


The Librarians ability is very different. Reading and Sending thoughts to someone else.

[Leewei]

Why would Mary take a bullet for Sherlock anyway?

If she has time to jump in front of the bullet, he has time to move.

I finally got around to watching, so now I get to involve myself with this thread.

The bullet is something Mary would consider hers because it is (from her perspective) her past catching up to her.

Although, people faking their own deaths (as Holmes apparently did) leaves the door open a crack to a different possibility. Moriarty was actually the actor he claimed to be, and Mary is the antagonist of the series. I'm pretty sure this isn't the case because she died in Dr. Watson's arms, making it extremely unlikely he'd be tricked.

[Joran]

Saw the third episode, and I'm not sure what I feel about it...



The sister's ability to control someone after just a few minutes of conversation goes beyond what I'm willing to believe and WAY into the territory of sci-fi.
I find it funny that almost at the same time a character from "The Librarians" got more or less the same ability.

The ending was also "huh?". I mean, really? All she needed was a hug?

There is also the point that I generally dislike "escape room" episodes, but that's a personal preference.

Still there are a few points that I can give the episode.
The part with the glass was awesome, the revelation about the plane was also good, and I'm also not against a plot based on Sherlock's repressed memories



I liked the 3rd episode all the way up to the ending, which is meant to be a pat ending (in case this is the last episode of the series, even though that hasn't been announced). The entire episode was pretty dark and having it end as a "and they lived happily ever after" just felt weird.

[factotum]

Just finished watching the third episode myself and I was distinctly underwhelmed. It just didn't seem to make much sense.


Euros tried to kill Sherlock by burning down the house, and definitely *did* kill his best friend--or possibly another brother we'd not heard about, that part was unclear--yet it was him threatening to kill himself that forced her hand in the prison?


If they do a fifth season they really need to go back to the "solving crimes" stuff and drop the cloak and dagger, I think.

[Joran]

Just finished watching the third episode myself and I was distinctly underwhelmed. It just didn't seem to make much sense.


Euros tried to kill Sherlock by burning down the house, and definitely *did* kill his best friend--or possibly another brother we'd not heard about, that part was unclear--yet it was him threatening to kill himself that forced her hand in the prison?


If they do a fifth season they really need to go back to the "solving crimes" stuff and drop the cloak and dagger, I think.


Adult Eurus subconsciously wanted Sherlock to help her. She didn't want him to kill himself. The conscious "torture Sherlock" portion of Eurus didn't want Sherlock to end the game by just choosing to off himself; that's cheating.

[Benthesquid]

Well, I'm a right sucker for criminal mind games...

And it was a lot of fun to imagine Moriarty sitting around thinking of irritating/ominous recordings to leave for Eurus to screw with Sherlock after his death.

Not crazy about them killing off the consistently capable female character in the show (not counting Irene for a number of reasons, not the least being that she only appears as sexy moaning text alerts) and then revealing that the one Holmes sister is smarter than all of them, but wildly emotionally unstable.

On a different note, it would be nice if they told us that Mycroft was the smarter one a bit less and showed us a bit more.

[Rodin]

Well, I'm a right sucker for criminal mind games...


On a different note, it would be nice if they told us that Mycroft was the smarter one a bit less and showed us a bit more.

This is one of the big reasons I hated the final episode.

Mycroft is shown as being both smart and ruthless in earlier episodes. In this one, he's an absolute idiot. It takes Watson to make the connection that the prison is compromised, when even I worked that out before they even arrived on the island. Mycroft knows his sister best, and should have known that playing along with her games was stupid, plane or not. NONE of them come to realization that she'll never let them win, even when she kills the innocents along with the guilty party with the 3 dudes. As for Dr Watson, he's already shown he can act decisively when lives are on the line...so why did he not shoot the warden, exactly? Her killing the wife was exactly predictable after the warden offed himself.

Beyond that, the entire thing is just stupid and impossible. Someone with the ability to mind control someone within 5 minutes is utterly unbelievable. Everyone knows this ability of hers...and yet her cell has speakers. Holmes's house just happens to have gravestones that make no sense...just so that Euros can make a puzzle out of them? Euros is enough in control over the scared little girl part of her subconscious that she can whip it out just to taunt them, but can then insta-snap it away again with no side-effects? At the end, Mycroft says security has been tightened, because "people have died". Um, people freaking died already - that psychologist the prison warden got to interview her. The security wasn't tightened then? Or was he already in her pocket before that?

If she has to be alone with someone to control them, how the heck did she take control of the ENTIRE PRISON? Didn't any of the other dozens of guards notice anything amiss? Did the prison warden send them in for 1 one 1 counseling sessions or something?? It really feels like Moffat ran out of Sherlock plots and dug into his "rejected scripts" drawer to pull out a Doctor Who episode that got vetoed.

The whole thing was a hot mess, and I'd much rather have ended my watching of the series after the second episode.

[DomaDoma]

Moffat explains that now, humanized at long last, Benedict Cumberbatch can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Basil Rathbone and Jeremy Brett. Dude, Benedict Cumberbatch started off in that position. A cold Sherlock Holmes, a warm Sherlock Holmes, a... looks-really-good-on-posters Sherlock Holmes (okay, so I've never been too thrilled with Rathbone) - these are all capable of greatness. A Sherlock Holmes that has ceased to make sense? Not a snowball's.

Oddly, a search for "sherlock season 4 jumped the shark", no phrases, brings up a vast opinion that season three was the actual jump point. Am I alone in liking season three? If so, could it be simply because I was just so sure that Mary was going to be Jack McMurdo (having heard of Jack McMurdo being something I've long since accepted being mostly alone in)? Man. Makes me feel like a Luke/Leia diehard walking out of Return of the Jedi.

As regards your spoiler, Rodin:

Is there any evidence that Moftiss have read the Foundation Trilogy? I elected to spoil myself rather than bother with the finale, but that might explain a lot about Eurus. Not least her more-twist-than-sense identity reveal at the end of episode two. Second Foundation was pretty much 60% made up of scenes like that.

[Dienekes]

Well, I might be in the minority here but I actually kind of enjoyed this season. But I do think it doesn't really compare to the first 2, which were great.

I also agree that Mycroft really has been a let down, really the whole show, but it really reaches new heights here. It's been fairly consistent since the beginning that he is "The smart one." But the only thing he's done that's been truly smart has been to figure out a minor case about a guy killing himself with a boomerang from the police report, while Sherlock required John to go out and record the area with a laptop. This is Mycroft Holmes. The only character in the books that is quantifiably smarter than Sherlock. And I know that he's a very changed character from his book counterpart, really his work ethic is the exact opposite end of the spectrum. But, if they keep bringing up how intelligent he is, it's strange and annoying that the writers keep going out of their way to dumb him down.

[factotum]

Oddly, a search for "sherlock season 4 jumped the shark", no phrases, brings up a vast opinion that season three was the actual jump point. Am I alone in liking season three?

Pretty clearly not. Just look at the individual season scores on Rotten Tomatoes:

Season 1: 100%
Season 2: 100%
Season 3: 97%
Victorian Christmas special: 69%
Season 4: 57%

So, there was arguably a small drop in form in season 3--enough that *every single critic* didn't sing the show's praises like they did for the first two--but it's clear that any shark-jumping shenanigans are firmly after that point.

[jayem]

Pretty clearly not. Just look at the individual season scores on Rotten Tomatoes:

Season 1: 100%
Season 2: 100%
Season 3: 97%
Victorian Christmas special: 69%
Season 4: 57%

So, there was arguably a small drop in form in season 3--enough that *every single critic* didn't sing the show's praises like they did for the first two--but it's clear that any shark-jumping shenanigans are firmly after that point.

I did feel a bit cheated between season 2&3 (and reminded of that between 3&VCS). They made a big thing about the survival being a puzzle we could work out ('clue everyone missed'), and then apparently didn't have a really working solution. But the season itself was ok.

4-1& 4-3, especially had some nice scenes, but logic seems to fall apart very very quickly between them.

Before the end Eurus seemed very in control of her 'in a plane' persona (did Holmes hear her as a child or as an adult).
Moving the 'cell' to the 'house', why?
The grenade seems too chaotic to be rely on them surviving.
When were the graves marked.
(Mycroft did explain why he was in disguise though)


Agree with Mycroft, being sold short, he had the authority, but didn't show the genius. It would have been nice to see him doing sherlock stuff with countries or something (with no space for the little details).

[Rodin]

For me, the first episode was reasonably decent - about as strong as some of the weaker episodes of the earlier seasons like the Hound of the Baskervilles one. The second episode was just all around great, mainly because Toby Jones is awesome. It was really only the third episode that let me down completely.

[Flickerdart]

Episode 2 was the only good thing about Season 3, but every episode of Season 4 made me pine for even the bad episodes of old.

[DomaDoma]

Blind Banker is still the third-worst and something I'm not keen on watching ever again. But I will never reject any other episode in the first three seasons.

[Flickerdart]

Blind Banker is still the third-worst and something I'm not keen on watching ever again. But I will never reject any other episode in the first three seasons.

Really? Not Hounds of Baskerville? Not even The Last Vow?

[DomaDoma]

I have never understood what people have against His Last Vow- it's only one edgy step removed from what actually happened in Charles Augustus Milverton, folks, this is completely par for the course on Sherlock - and I've never heard anyone criticize Hounds before and so don't know what your basis is for not liking it.

(As for Blind Banker, it was much more thriller than mystery, was completely unnecessary in every way, and yeah, it really was racist.)

[Dienekes]

Really? Not Hounds of Baskerville? Not even The Last Vow?

I liked Hound... it was weird and funny. Not the best by any means but I still remember it over say, the one with the tea kettles which I can only comment on that I only vaguely remember it involved tea kettles.

[Kato]

Oh my gods, what a train wreck that finale was...
Do we need spoilers after a week? Okay, I'll be short.
It started and fell with our new antagonist and as was said it's just stupid to a) give her such a super power (and that's the only explanation) and b) have her use it freely like that. This basically destroyed every credibility the episode had. Seeing Jim again was kind of nice as a farewell but there could have been far better uses. Nothing against Gatiss' acting but mycroft was bad, Watson was sub-par and the ending was pretty cringe worthy as well...
It had a few entertaining moments but boy do I wish they'd done something terribly different.

As things are, episode 4-2 was the best of the season and was okay but could have been much better, too... I think the last I liked pretty well was... The mid-season one? My memory is fuzzy on that.. Last Vow? 3-1? Hm... Let's just say this last season was a poor send off and I'd rather the last episode didn't exist. (I watched it with friends and we pretty much agreed on that)

[Aedilred]

The Hounds of Baskerville was the dodgiest episode of the first two seasons by some distance, I felt, managing to be both pretty far-fetched and also fairly obvious at the same time. Other than that they were pretty note-perfect.

Season three... well. This was the point I think at which the show stopped having its focus on solving puzzles based on clues and became a spy drama. It's also the point at which Mary gets introduced, who in her better moments served to perk up the Sherlock-Watson relationship at the heart of the show (which otherwise might have become played out) but also turned out to be the source of much of the silliness which came to overwhelm the show itself.

The first episode of the three is probably the worst for this as it lacks much of a clear and consistent thread. The case around which the story is nominally structured is given such short and basic shrift that solving it feels like an afterthought. You have the business with resolving the cliffhanger from the previous episode, which is entertaining but ultimately doesn't answer any of the questions anyone had. You also have scenes like John in the bonfire which, not having anything to do with the story apparently at hand, make the plot feel disjointed and muddled. The second episode is the best of the three in my opinion, as it features Sherlock actually solving a case using his brain and available clues, and the case is foregrounded sufficiently against an entertaining backdrop that it works. It's self-indulgent, perhaps, but for my money it's the closest Sherlock has come to the quality of the first two seasons.

The third episode is going well until the final act when it goes completely off the rails. We have a compelling villain, but now it turns out his blackmail is his precursor to Taking Over The World! Sherlock uses some Hollywood Drugs to force a confrontation, at which point the villain pulls an implausible "aha!" out of his hat* to foil Sherlock's plan, and Sherlock resolves the situation by shooting him in the head. Then he's packed off to Siberia or wherever. Then he is immediately called back. All this happens within the space of about ten minutes.

It's all still good television, but it's drifting away from what made the first two seasons so special. And the fourth season is much closer to the third than the first two in most respects. I think part of the reason why the second episode of both seasons three and four is the best is partly because the writers feel a bit more able to tell a self-contained story, without having to recap and resolve cliffhangers from the previous season, as with the first episode, or wrap up the "plot arc" as they do in the third, which leads to those episodes feeling muddled, forced or stretched for at least some of their length. (Interestingly, though, for the first two seasons the reverse was true, with the middle episode being the weakest). I didn't feel that The Lying Detective was as good as The Sign of Three, let alone any of the first six episodes (with Hounds of Baskerville possibly excepted), but it was still the best of this season.

All of which is to say ultimately that I think if I had to identify a shark-jump moment it'd be somewhere between seasons two and three. Before that point, it was extraordinary. After that point, it's still pretty good, but it's lost its way, and is something of a shadow of its former self.

*Mind palaces I can get behind as an idea. But a mind archive full of personnel files is just cheating, and not how that whole thing works.

[Flickerdart]

The issue with all the bad episodes before Season 4 is mostly that they're not about Sherlock Holmes. If exactly the same plots were in a completely unrelated detective show, I wouldn't bat an eye. But Sherlock is a guy that solves crimes by deduction! As soon as the episodes veer away from that, it starts to fall apart. S03E02 is a perfect example of how the deduction thing can be combined with a really good episode about the personalities involved. I guess the bad ones tried and failed.

[grimbold]

.

Season three... well. This was the point I think at which the show stopped having its focus on solving puzzles based on clues and became a spy drama. It's also the point at which Mary gets introduced, who in her better moments served to perk up the Sherlock-Watson relationship at the heart of the show (which otherwise might have become played out) but also turned out to be the source of much of the silliness which came to overwhelm the show itself.



Pretty much this.
I had a bit of a Sherlock marathon with my roommate over the weekend to see if we were misremembering how good the old episodes were - we weren't. The change in the feel of the show is dramatic and hard to come to terms with.

[Rodin]

The issue with all the bad episodes before Season 4 is mostly that they're not about Sherlock Holmes. If exactly the same plots were in a completely unrelated detective show, I wouldn't bat an eye. But Sherlock is a guy that solves crimes by deduction! As soon as the episodes veer away from that, it starts to fall apart. S03E02 is a perfect example of how the deduction thing can be combined with a really good episode about the personalities involved. I guess the bad ones tried and failed.

That lack of focus was much of what I had a problem with in the most recent finale.

We go from Doctor Who (the weird, impossible dream sequence) to Mission Impossible (infiltrating the prison) to Saw (prison warden and his wife), and then it looks like we're finally going to get some deductions...and Sherlock effortlessly deduces who the shooter is in a couple minutes. Then we're right back to Saw.

The Victorian special came closest to replicating the Sherlock feel, because most of the episode is Sherlock focusing on a single case with no spy shenanigans going on, and a real mystery behind how the murder was committed.

[The_Ditto]

I didn't mind the season 4 .. not as good as first 2, though .. definitely first 2 were awesome :)

That final episode though ... was i the only one that kept hearing Euro's voice as Gladys? and feeling they were in a Portal game? O.o

[Pex]

It was ok for me, but I really wanted an actual mystery instead of just soap opera/spy movie nonsense. At least the second episode was an actual case, but there really wasn't a mystery. I suppose it's like "Columbo" where we know who the murderer is and the entertainment is watching the process Columbo uses to prove it, but here it there is no proof to get. Nothing means anything until the end.

It's a common annoyance I have with various television shows, usually happening with dramas. They abandon their original premise and go meta. The only thing about this season that was Sherlock Holmes was the name of the characters. I was interested about the mystery of how the son was killed in the car, but once that was solved 20 minutes into the show everything else was James Bond. I really didn't care. The mystery of the son was sad, anti-climactic, and irrelevant.