D&D 3.5E LG Melee Hybrid help

[Clock90Tower]

Hey guys. First post here but there seems to be a ton of information so I'd love some help.

I am playing in a D&D 3.5E with Living Greyhawk rule set / limitations and starting at level 2. My group is very competitive and doesn't want any slackers so I want a strong build. I've only ever really done your basic cookie cutter melee THF stuff but am looking to change it up.

Basically looking for some ideas within the rule set we have to see if I can play something that can shovel out damage that's a little out of the box. If I have to go back to a barb/fighter to do the damage that's what I'll do. But a feral druid or battle cleric just sounds awesome in the books. Any brainstorming here would help me a lot! Thanks!

Books permitted:

(Within these books there are still some base classes and PRC banned. Races start from PHB as well. No evil alignment stuff.)

Comp Adv
Comp Arcane
Comp Divine
Comp Mage
Comp Scoundrel
Come Warrior
Frostburn
Miniatures Handbook
PHB 2
Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the wild
Sandstorm
Spell Compendium
Stormwrack

[Tiri]

You don't appear to understand how the Shapeshift ability works. You're not actually turning into a wolf. You're turning into something that you have the option to make look like a wolf, but mechanically the ability is not related to wolves or any other form you could assume with the ability, like a panther or a smallish lion or whatever.

As a result, you apply the natural armour increase to the amount of natural armour you normally have, which, assuming you are a standard human/elf/dwarf/halfling/gnome/half-elf/half-orc, is 0.

[Clock90Tower]

But it says I gain a primary bite attack? Does that just replace my weapon? Do I retain my armor bonus in this case?

I guess I just don't understand what all is replaced.

[Tiri]

All your held, carried, or worn gear melds into your new
form and becomes nonfunctional until you return to your
normal form. You cannot speak in shapeshifted form, and
your limbs lack the precision required to wield a weapon or
perform tasks requiring fine manipulation.


So, weapons cannot be used. Neither can armour, unless you take it off and get someone to put it on you after you transform.

[Red Fel]

My group is very competitive and doesn't want any slackers so I want a strong build.

. . .

My idea is start with the alternate progression Druid to have shape changing at level 1 and be primarily melee damage out of the gates..where to go from there..natures warrior / warshaper? Not really concerned at all with my ability to cast spells.

These two statements are a bit incongruous.

Generally speaking, people don't consider the Shapeshift Druid ACF to be "competitive." In fact, it's seen as a deliberate "nerf" to a strong character.

Druids are normally one of the most powerful classes, with spells, summons, and Wild Shape enabling them to melee as effectively as any Fighter. You're giving up Wild Shape for something weaker.

And let me explain why, specifically, Shapeshift is a weaker option. When a Druid uses Shapeshift, he can take one from a list of pre-set forms, and gains small boosts to his stats. When a Druid uses Wild Shape, he has a massively expansive list of forms, which he can expand further with feats; additionally, his stats aren't boosted, they are replaced.

For example, if your Druid has high Wis, Int, and Cha, but low Str, Dex, and Con, Shapeshift won't help a lot with those physical stats - it will make them a little better. But Wild Shape will replace his physical stats with those of the target form - which is, again, quite varied - which allows him to be an effective melee despite having low physical stats.

In short: Are you sure this is what you want to be playing?

[Clock90Tower]

These two statements are a bit incongruous.

Generally speaking, people don't consider the Shapeshift Druid ACF to be "competitive." In fact, it's seen as a deliberate "nerf" to a strong character.

Druids are normally one of the most powerful classes, with spells, summons, and Wild Shape enabling them to melee as effectively as any Fighter. You're giving up Wild Shape for something weaker.

And let me explain why, specifically, Shapeshift is a weaker option. When a Druid uses Shapeshift, he can take one from a list of pre-set forms, and gains small boosts to his stats. When a Druid uses Wild Shape, he has a massively expansive list of forms, which he can expand further with feats; additionally, his stats aren't boosted, they are replaced.

For example, if your Druid has high Wis, Int, and Cha, but low Str, Dex, and Con, Shapeshift won't help a lot with those physical stats - it will make them a little better. But Wild Shape will replace his physical stats with those of the target form - which is, again, quite varied - which allows him to be an effective melee despite having low physical stats.

In short: Are you sure this is what you want to be playing?

No, I'm not sure that's what I want to play. Leafing through the book it seemed like it would've been pretty cool but I guess I didn't really understand the alternate version of it.

[GilesTheCleric]

Welcome to the playground.

Perhaps you could tell us a little about what builds your group is playing/ has historically played, and what sorts of builds you've played and enjoyed. It sounds like you primarily want a powerful character so that you're not left behind, right? We can give you some pointers to help you find an appropriate build that's something you should enjoy, if you're fixed on playing something specific (ie shapechange acf). Further, everyone has a different idea of what "powerful" is, so it helps us to see what your groups' standard of powerful is.

[Clock90Tower]

Well, there's typically 5-6 of us at a table and somebody different runs the game every time. It's not a set storyline as the modules are from the RPGA LG series. The group is basically starting new characters to bring my friend and I into the mix. I know that he will be playing a wizard, and I've told them I'm playing a melee combatant that can shovel out damage. So they're going to fill in the gaps.

I really like the idea of a battle cleric or feral druid type. They're not set in stone, because I just like to roll dice and feel like a badass dropping monsters in an round or two. I've always played the THF barb or fighter so if I can't make something work with those hybrids, I'll go back to what I know. I've read a little bit on here about strong builds for both, but mostly at higher level games and they 'sound' weak at the lower levels.

[Red Fel]

Well, there's typically 5-6 of us at a table and somebody different runs the game every time. It's not a set storyline as the modules are from the RPGA LG series. The group is basically starting new characters to bring my friend and I into the mix. I know that he will be playing a wizard, and I've told them I'm playing a melee combatant that can shovel out damage. So they're going to fill in the gaps.

I really like the idea of a battle cleric or feral druid type. They're not set in stone, because I just like to roll dice and feel like a badass dropping monsters in an round or two. I've always played the THF barb or fighter so if I can't make something work with those hybrids, I'll go back to what I know. I've read a little bit on here about strong builds for both, but mostly at higher level games and they 'sound' weak at the lower levels.

There's something to be said for a Wild Shape-focused Druid, if that's your goal. There are a lot of feats that give you more options in Wild Shape. You can always take Natural Spell to cast spells while in Wild Shape, and then use various buffs to make your Wild Shape even more vicious. There are some real nasty tricks, too. For example, the Frozen Wild Shape feat (Frostburn) allows you to Wild Shape into Magical Beasts with the (Cold) subtype. A Cryohydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm#cryohydra) is such a creature, and it's really vicious. Alternatively, take the Dragon Wild Shape feat (Draconomicon) and turn into a freaking Dragon, complete with (Ex) and (Su) abilities. There's also the Enhance Wild Shape spell that grants the (Ex) abilities of your Wild Shape form, which can be pretty brutal with the right combination.

The fact is, a well-build Cleric or Druid (collectively, CoDzilla) is never weak, not even at low levels. They just get stronger. Depending on your interests, there are a lot of pretty solid builds out there you can make.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Obligatory mention of cleric 4/ crusader 1/ ruby knight vindicator 10/ X 5 where X is something that advances cleric casting 5/5. Maybe make X Sacred exorcist?

In any case, you get full spellcasting minus 3 levels (Still get 9th level spells), decent maneuver progression (4th or 5th level maneuvers if you're willing to shuffle things at the tail end), BAB 17, d10's and d8's through your whole career, full armor and weapons...

It's just a -really- solid divine gish build. If you want to cast divine spells and hit things with a pointy stick, it's hard to beat.

[Clock90Tower]

I appreciate the help! However a lot of the recommendations aren't allowed in the game we're playing. Maybe it's not as familiar as I thought so here's a list of the books allowed:

Within these books there are still some base classes and PRC banned. Races start from PHB as well. No evil alignment stuff.

Comp Adv
Comp Arcane
Comp Divine
Comp Mage
Comp Scoundrel
Come Warrior
Frostburn
Miniatures Handbook
PHB 2
Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the wild
Sandstorm
Spell Compendium
Stormwrack

With the idea I had of a druid being so weak..I've now focused more on a battle cleric.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Comp Adv
Comp Arcane
Comp Divine
Comp Mage
Comp Scoundrel
Come Warrior
Frostburn
Miniatures Handbook
PHB 2
Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the wild
Sandstorm
Spell Compendium
Stormwrack

Oh... that's... disappointing.

Yeah, all I've really got is cleric/church inquisitor and get good at spell selection. Least you've got the spell compendium.

[Clock90Tower]

Oh... that's... disappointing.

Yeah, all I've really got is cleric/church inquisitor and get good at spell selection. Least you've got the spell compendium.

Hahah yeah it's a bit of a bummer. Persist is also banned so I can't even be a buff monster on myself. Have to get divine metamagic for quickened buffs.

[GilesTheCleric]

You can't politely request Complete Champion? That's about the best book for Clerics outside of SC and SK. Kelb has about got the gist of it, but it's really not all that bad. I recommend investing in PA, Scribe Scroll, Quicken Spell, and then whatever other feats you like. You'll do just fine on spell selection alone. DMM: Quicken is good if Persist is banned, definitely.

[Clock90Tower]

You can't politely request Complete Champion? That's about the best book for Clerics outside of SC and SK. Kelb has about got the gist of it, but it's really not all that bad. I recommend investing in PA, Scribe Scroll, Quicken Spell, and then whatever other feats you like. You'll do just fine on spell selection alone. DMM: Quicken is good if Persist is banned, definitely.

The game modules are developed based on this ruleset. It was basically competitive D&D the way I see it.. lol everything was recorded and you could go to conventions all over to play just bring your character and everything is updated. They had guys there to officiate and everything.

Some little things I'm sure they'd be cool with, but the mods are just balanced around what's been banned is all. So allowing a whole new book isn't going to fly. Plenty of other stuff I could play inside the rules haha.

[GilesTheCleric]

When you said living grayhawk, I thought it was just your table's rule. I didn't know there was actually any living greyhawk still running anywhere.

[Clock90Tower]

Still looking for some ideas for this build. Seems the books we have really clip the wings of the traditional battle clerics I've read about on here using the CC book. I've never played an arcane class, are there any that can be used in melee and keep pace all levels of the game?

[GilesTheCleric]

I think Abjurant Champion (CAr) is popular for arcane gishes, but I can't say I know much about them. You can do fine without CC as a Cleric, since you have both Fb and SC to pick spells from. Even if you're not using DMM:P, DMM: Quicken is very good, and DMM: Extend isn't bad, either -- there's a decent number of buff spells with hr/lvl, which benefit more from Extend than Persist.

I think all you really need as a gish Cleric is power attack and an okay str score. You said your party was pretty competitive, so they'd probably be fine with letting you use more powerful tactics like Meld with Stone.

What build options were you considering as a Cleric? I'd rather not make your build for you, but we can easily give some pointers on where to improve things.

[gorfnab]

I've never played an arcane class, are there any that can be used in melee and keep pace all levels of the game?
You might want to consider a Gish build. The Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook)
For a LG build you could go with the standard Sorcadin setup:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8