Aasimar Paladin, Lawful Evil Rogue and Tiefling Alchemist Party

[Wardog442]

I'm beginning a campaign this Friday the 13th and as the title states I will be playing an Aasimar Paladin, and a very angelic one at that, with wings and halo! I come to you guys seeking some guidance. I have never played a paladin before, nor anything close to it. I have however played with paladins in the past, but they have not been the best examples either. I've been reading up on guides, and watching videos by Dawnforge, with hopes that I play a decent Paladin that follows his own code, and not the stereotypical goodie-too-shoes or "you must do good things or i'll kill you" types. The main reason why I'm writing this is however is because I need help with a certain predicament. The party is composed of six players. A NG Human Barbarian, N Ranger, Oracle, LE Rogue, Tiefling Rogue (alignment unknown), and myself the Aasimar Paladin. The issue here is mainly the Tiefling. My Paladin has taken on the Oath Against Fiends (Archetype) and has a background with enough reasons to hate devils, demons and daemons. How in the hell can I work together with a race that is product of the very demons I despise?! Nothing is for certain until the game begins, and my DM is very capable. But I wanted to ask y'all some questions any ways. Thank you in advance.

Can any one suggest me ways of how to deal with this Tiefling verbally (to possibly avoid a fight)?
Any tips when dealing with Lawful evil party members (The LE Rogue in this case)?
Any paladin tips in general (Mainly Roleplaying)?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Obvious solution to the tiefling problem; pity. He isn't a fiend himself but somewhere down the line one of his ancestors was surely the victim of one's "attentions." Show them excessive sympathy for the plight the poor soul faces because of his own blood.

The rogue is easy: acknowledge he's evil, insist he keep whatever dark-deeds marked him as such to himself (forgiveness and mercy are tennets of good and it's easier to forgive deeds you don't know about), and proselytize at him once in a while. As long as he's not doing evi in front of you, you can delude yourself into thinking that your "lessons on being good" are getting through. Heck, the rogue's player might even go along with it and become redeemed (don't count on it.)

Be aware, it's not inevitable that the rogue and your paladin will come into conflict. It is, however, quite likely and you need to be ready to give up the paladin character if the other members of the party side with him. Be prepared to declare that you're willing to let just this one act go, on account of your history together, but that you and he cannot continue to travel in one another's company.

Honestly, the party is likely to side with the rogue (just seems to go that way) so accept it with grace and have your replacement charcacter at the ready.

[Geddy2112]

Tieflings did not choose to be born, and I am certain that that fiendish ancestry in their bloodline was not always welcome either.

You took an oath against fiends which states "A paladin who takes an oath against demons, devils, daemons, and other evil outsiders is constantly on the lookout for malicious fiendish insurgence into the world, and faces it with swift and unwavering defiance. Often she works closely with inquisitors, searching for signs of outsider manipulation and possession."

Fiends are irredeemable capital E evil monsters who cannot be anything else. Tieflings have fiendish ancestry, but are not evil outsiders. They are native outsiders and can be evil, but they are not an objectively evil with the evil subtype. You might be pleasantly surprised if the tiefling plays a good alignment. I second pity or sympathy to his heritage, and also some understanding that his heritage does not damn him, no more than your divine heritage is an automatic pass to be good. Certainly your goal is to stop fiends from getting their genetic material all over the material plane,

If you are starting at a lower level, the rogue won't ping as evil on your smite radar. Evil aligned creatures that are not outsiders, undead, or clerics/paladins/warpriests won't detect until level 5. Also, he is going lawful evil so it is pretty unlikely he will just go murderhobo and kill random people in front of you for no reason. He is probably going to tip his hand and show off being a scumbag, but if he is halfway intelligent he won't commit any openly smiteworthy actions in front of you. I would talk to the player and offer that you won't be the morality police so long as he is not an openly stupid evil murderhobo.

In my personal experience, I have never seen a lawful evil character be a problem in a party. I was not a paladin, but I was a lawful good cleric in a party with a lawful evil bard/ninja. We were actually great friends in character, although I frowned on his penchant to execute downed/surrendering enemies and he saw my proselytizing goodness as a bit naive. Even though we both worked for different organizations, we put aside our differences to get the job done that needed doing, and we accepted that war makes strange bedfellows. We actually started to use each other in a good cop bad cop routine. I would let enemies know that if they draw on us, they will all die and there will be no mercy from the dapper dude over there. Likewise, he would say that you should listen to the holy halfling because while he cares about the sanctity of your lives, he did not and would be more than happy to show them exactly how expendable they are in his eyes.

As for being a paladin, just don't police the party and understand that not everyone is as good as you are, likewise the path to being a good person is hard and not all are ready/some are going about it in a different way. Don't overreact to any action past that of a good aligned character- If a party member kills an enemy who was surrendering or fleeing, but they were a monster or beast that attacked, you can be upset but you gotta let it go. If a party member instead axes an unborn child out of a mother and then kills the mother, all while explaining how it is your fault because of your race, then you smite them on the freaking spot. Both are real examples of things that happened when I last played a paladin.

[Wardog442]

Obvious solution to the tiefling problem; pity. He isn't a fiend himself but somewhere down the line one of his ancestors was surely the victim of one's "attentions." Show them excessive sympathy for the plight the poor soul faces because of his own blood...


Tieflings did not choose to be born, and I am certain that that fiendish ancestry in their bloodline was not always welcome either.

You took an oath against fiends which states "A paladin who takes an oath against demons, devils, daemons, and other evil outsiders is constantly on the lookout for malicious fiendish insurgence into the world, and faces it with swift and unwavering defiance. Often she works closely with inquisitors, searching for signs of outsider manipulation and possession."

Fiends are irredeemable capital E evil monsters ...

Thank you for both your replies. They are both very insightful pieces. I will definitely NOT be the morality police. ;) However I must say this. Is it then acceptable for a Paladin to witness torturing? Should he not intervene if someone is being tortured? Or are there ways to bypass this common belief that paladins should not tolerate torture or suffering of any kind, even if the person is a heinous villain?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thank you for both your replies. They are both very insightful pieces. I will definitely NOT be the morality police. ;) However I must say this. Is it then acceptable for a Paladin to witness torturing? Should he not intervene if someone is being tortured? Or are there ways to bypass this common belief that paladins should not tolerate torture or suffering of any kind, even if the person is a heinous villain?

Suffering is inevitable. That's just life.

Torture, however, is an evil act for which a paladin should have no tolerance. Neither physical pain nor impending threat of irresistable pain is an acceptable tool for good characters.

However, don't mistake torture for more general intimidation. "Answer my questions or you die," is not torture.

A paladin will fall for knowingly allowing torture to occur.


I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to bear in mind that torture is defined, in this context, as the physical mistreatment of a helpless prisoner. There are game rules for its proper execution in BoVD.

[GilesTheCleric]

It seems like you've got a good grasp of things, so I'll just add a little: my advice is to think of your personality first, and your "Paladinness" second. One can inform the other, but there's lots to a person besides their moral code.

My justification for adventuring with evil folks is practical. They're less likely to be able to do evil if you're with them. And, if they're above-average folks (they are, as adventurers), then it's worth your time to see if you can't get them to eventually accept an atonement.

As a GM, I always ask my players to create their own Paladin code rather than using the terrible published one, but your GM might not do the same.

[Wardog442]

It seems like you've got a good grasp of things, so I'll just add a little: my advice is to think of your personality first, and your "Paladinness" second. One can inform the other, but there's lots to a person besides their moral code.

My justification for adventuring with evil folks is practical. They're less likely to be able to do evil if you're with them. And, if they're above-average folks (they are, as adventurers), then it's worth your time to see if you can't get them to eventually accept an atonement.

As a GM, I always ask my players to create their own Paladin code rather than using the terrible published one, but your GM might not do the same.

Following the Oath Against Fiends, and Oath of Vengeance (since my characters mother was killed by demonic onslaught), I created this oath when my orphaned character was left in the care of a veteran (high ranking) paladin. Tell me what you think, and if you have any suggestions to make it longer please let me know (that's what she said). :)

“Never suffer a fiend, demon or daemon to live.
I shall destroy it, if it is within my power.
I shall do what I must to banish it, if it is greater in power.
I shall purge those who become possessed by evil.
I shall protect the weak and absolve the innocent.
I am he who enters the darkness,
And untainted, triumphs over evil.”

[Geddy2112]

Torture, however, is an evil act for which a paladin should have no tolerance. Neither physical pain nor impending threat of irresistible pain is an acceptable tool for good characters.

However, don't mistake torture for more general intimidation. "Answer my questions or you die," is not torture.

A paladin will fall for knowingly allowing torture to occur.

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to bear in mind that torture is defined, in this context, as the physical mistreatment of a helpless prisoner. There are game rules for its proper execution in BoVD.
I second this entirely. You can't torture people and be a good person, much less a paladin.
That said

even if the person is a heinous villain?
Here the part about it being a person is what matters. You are going up against fiends and objectively evil outsiders. You can't torture them, because that makes you non good(even if they are evil) but these are beings made in part or whole of capital E evil. Torture is off limits, but you can smite Evil outsiders and undead on the spot. Humans, people, or other creatures capable of making a choice don't qualify for autosmiting. That said, you don't need detect evil to make the call for you, if you see objectively evil actions you(and any good aligned person) is highly justified and dang near obligated to intervene.
I think your code did really well to capture this distinction.



“Never suffer a fiend, demon or daemon to live.
I shall destroy it, if it is within my power.
I shall do what I must to banish it, if it is greater in power.
I shall purge those who become possessed by evil.
I shall protect the weak and absolve the innocent.
I am he who enters the darkness,
And untainted, triumphs over evil.”
I might change purge to heal or redeem. Demons, devils, daemons etc are often created from evil souls who are suffering. Certainly unrepentent evil humanoids gotta get put down, but if you can redeem them you will prevent them from becoming monsters. Keeping souls out of Hell/Abbadon/The Abyss furthers your cause against fiends/demons/daemons.

Likewise, if your party is attacked or encounters evil outsiders, I bet that LE rogue is going to be thrilled you are around and more than happy to let your LG smite them into next year. Unless they are planning on making pacts with evil outsiders(really more of an evil cleric thing) they are not your particular brand of evil. You are a demon hunter, and they don't want to die to a demon. That L side of that LE will probably find said rogue backstabbing the crap out of the demon while you are smiting it from the front. If they are going for a hitman/assassin style character, then they have very good skills, and you just need to fulfill their wanton killing lust by having them kill the right things. If they kill things for a job, then offer them your share of the treasure to go out and hunt/kill every evil thing around. Killing evil outsiders is probably pretty lucrative, and it keeps them from stabbing innocent people.

[Wardog442]

T
I might change purge to heal or redeem. Demons, devils, daemons etc are often created from evil souls who are suffering. Certainly unrepentent evil humanoids gotta get put down, but if you can redeem them you will prevent them from becoming monsters. Keeping souls out of Hell/Abbadon/The Abyss furthers your cause against fiends/demons/daemons.


Here is a revised version, with some extra lines, and a rephrase of what you suggested.

“Never suffer a fiend, demon or daemon to live.
I shall destroy it, if it is within my power.
I shall do what I must to banish it, if it is greater in power.
I shall purge the evil from those who become possessed.
I shall protect the weak and absolve the innocent.
I am he who enters the pit to slay my foe,
And untainted, egress towards the light.”

So far from what I've read from you guys I'm able to narrow down and better imagine my style of role play. If I detect the evil from the LE rogue, I will not act upon it until he makes an evil action, however, I will always keep a mindful eye over him. As for the Tiefling, I think I'll include some sort of event in my background where I encounter Tielfings, setting in motion a life learning experience like "we don't get to choose how we are born" type of deal. Eventually when role playing with the Tiefling, I will pity, pray for and perhaps proselytize towards him, in hopes that my Goddess finds him worthy of atonement or redemption. I will of course act swiftly if they make evil actions, leaving out a physical intervention as a last and final resort.

[Crake]

Suffering is inevitable. That's just life.

Torture, however, is an evil act for which a paladin should have no tolerance. Neither physical pain nor impending threat of irresistable pain is an acceptable tool for good characters.

However, don't mistake torture for more general intimidation. "Answer my questions or you die," is not torture.

A paladin will fall for knowingly allowing torture to occur.


I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to bear in mind that torture is defined, in this context, as the physical mistreatment of a helpless prisoner. There are game rules for its proper execution in BoVD.

Does the bolded part still count as evil/not-good if it's a bluff?

Edit: I know it's clearly not paladin-worthy, but like, perhaps a rogue, or even an inquisitor using that tactic?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does the bolded part still count as evil/not-good if it's a bluff?

Edit: I know it's clearly not paladin-worthy, but like, perhaps a rogue, or even an inquisitor using that tactic?

As a bluff it might ping on the paladins' oath's honorable action clause and -eventually- lead to a fall. It's not an evil action in itself though; shady as hell but not evil.

[Geddy2112]

I like the change in your code. Leaves the door open for violence, but does not require it. Hopefully you will try to purge the evil in a way that saves the victim.

I do hope your rogue friend won't be an issue. With an L on both of your alignments, you could at least be professional coworkers. You might get a mob boss/Tywin Lannister schemer type, which would also get along pretty well and accept your role in their world(although their big dark plans might not be something you want) and be professional enough to do their dirty deeds in secret and not flaunt them in front of you. If I was an LE person, I would LOVE having a goody two shoes paladin friend. I might be considered a shady scumbag by a lot of people but if I have noble friends or at least good people who prefer me alive, I prefer the character witness.

I also hope your tiefling friend is nonevil. Certainly you can pity their ancestery, but if they are not evil, that does not deserve pity, it deserves respect. Your ancestery is to a celestial being, and being a goody two shoes paladin is an easy path for you, easier than most. For a tiefling to be nonevil means they have not given in to their blood, and if they are good then you better kneel. That took serious work, and accepting an altruistic path in a world that probably treated the tiefling like garbage. You can fight fiends all you want, but they are fighting that battle every day in their own mind. Likewise, a nonevil tiefling is proof that a fiend can be beaten by a mortal, and that fiends can't rape their way into the material plane-that a good heart and will to not be evil will overcome any taint of darkness in the blood. If you don't detect evil, you buy that lad an ale.

Certainly you don't have to be that off the bat if your paladin would not that IC, but it might be a good lesson your character could learn.

[Wardog442]

I also hope your tiefling friend is nonevil. Certainly you can pity their ancestery, but if they are not evil, that does not deserve pity, it deserves respect. Your ancestery is to a celestial being, and being a goody two shoes paladin is an easy path for you, easier than most. For a tiefling to be nonevil means they have not given in to their blood, and if they are good then you better kneel. That took serious work, and accepting an altruistic path in a world that probably treated the tiefling like garbage. You can fight fiends all you want, but they are fighting that battle every day in their own mind. Likewise, a nonevil tiefling is proof that a fiend can be beaten by a mortal, and that fiends can't rape their way into the material plane-that a good heart and will to not be evil will overcome any taint of darkness in the blood. If you don't detect evil, you buy that lad an ale.

Certainly you don't have to be that off the bat if your paladin would not that IC, but it might be a good lesson your character could learn.

Duly noted. Thank you for your posts friend. ^_^

[Particle_Man]

The LE Rogue may be more of a problem for your palandinhood than the Tiefling, depending on your DM's view of things. I strongly recommend that you talk to your DM about your concerns.

[Dayaz]

Also, by the time the evil rogue starts to ping on your radar, they can easily afford to have a thin layer of iron put in their armor, which will stop them from pinging. Then, as long as they aren't a rampaging idiot, you will never have a reason to smite them.

I played a game as a Paladin of Shelyn, with a LE rogue who did that, and we had a perfectly good time together. He was more a pplitico, but his schemes where often enough used to help the Good contegent of the city keep a handle on the evil.

[Particle_Man]

Again, it depends on the DM. Some DMs will have an LE rogue detect as evil and will not allow the "thin layer of iron in the armour" trick to work. So I recommend that you check with your DM, and also with the player of the LE rogue.