Stacking untyped bonuses?

[schreier]

If I have a Ranger/Swordsage that took the Moon-Warded Ranger substitution levels, would the Wisdom AC bonuses stack?

Ranger - Moon-Warded level 2:
Armor of the Senses (Su): At 2nd level, a moon-warded ranger adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. This bonus only applies when the ranger wears light armor or no armor. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks and when the ranger is flat-footed. She loses this bonus when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor greater than light, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. This ability replaces the standard ranger's combat style ability.

Swordsage -
AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.

So differences -
Moon-Warded applies to light or no armor, while Swordsage is only light
Swordsage loses it if using a shield, while Moon-Warded does not seem to have that restriction
Since light loads do not "encumber" - the "medium or heavy load" is the same as "unencumbered"

Other than that, they appear to be the same ... there is an article on Wizards site that addresses stacking bonuses: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a

It says:
"Unnamed Bonuses - A bonus that doesn't have a name stacks with anything except itself. This is always true, but it's sometimes hard to remember. For example, many feats provide unnamed bonuses, so don't panic when you read a feat description and it provides a bonus without a name. An unnamed bonus from a feat stacks with any other bonus; however you can't stack that unnamed bonus if you take the feat twice."

These bonuses appear to be unnamed, and have different sources ... thus, it seems like you would be able to stack them, right?

schreier

[Hiro Quester]

Technically yes. RAW yes.

In practice, check with your DM, though. This can potentially be a balance issue.

Depending on circumstances, such a bonus to AC can make your AC vastly overpower those of other party members (so encounters than challenge you can kill them).

But if you don't have hugely enchanted light armor and this keeps your AC about the same level as other front-line members of your party, then it might be fine.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, they would stack. It wouldn't even be that overpowering - your Wisdom is unlikely to be super-high, since any front-liner needs Strength and Constitution, and lightly armored characters need Dexterity too. You're looking at a +2 or +3 bonus in exchange for delaying class feature progression by 2 levels. Hooray?

[schreier]

Less looking for overpowered/gamebreaking and more to make sure I handle it correctly. I love the two classes, they just seem to go well together. Trying to go Ranger 11/Swordsage 2/Scout 3/Barbarian 1 ... not sure what else

Go swift hunter build

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Less looking for overpowered/gamebreaking and more to make sure I handle it correctly. I love the two classes, they just seem to go well together. Trying to go Ranger 11/Swordsage 2/Scout 3/Barbarian 1 ... not sure what else

Go swift hunter buildYou'll probably want a level of scout or barbarian before you take swordsage, so you can get the most out of your initiator level when choosing maneuvers. Ranger 11 / 2 = 5.5, so half an initiator level is wasted.

[Flickerdart]

Trying to go Ranger 11/Swordsage 2/Scout 3/Barbarian 1 ... not sure what else

Go swift hunter build

I like going Scout 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1/Scout 3 as my Swift Hunter stub. This lets you pick up both Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish at level 6 using the Scout's bonus feat. Thereafter, go into Ranger. As mentioned, delaying Swordsage as late as possible lets you pick up better maneuvers.

There's nothing wrong with just taking more Ranger levels, since you progress all your important stuff with them. If you go Mystic Ranger you'll have good spells as well. Multiclassing out reduces the usefulness of Swift Hunter.

[Khedrac]

Untyped bonuses from differently named sources stack, but what most people forget is that if an ability says "add your [Stat] modifier to X" but does not specify "as a XXX bonus" it is not untyped - it is an ability modifier bonus - it's the first entry in the SRD table of Modifier types.
To be untyped the text either has to specify "untyped" or the amount you are adding has to not already have a modifier type - and stat modifers have a modifier type.

By really strict RAW most of the tricks to add mutliple stats to the same thing (e.g. str + dex to damage) don't stack because they are not different modifier types (str mod and dex mod) but both the same (ability mod).

[Anthrowhale]

Untyped bonuses from differently named sources stack, but what most people forget is that if an ability says "add your [Stat] modifier to X" but does not specify "as a XXX bonus" it is not untyped - it is an ability modifier bonus - it's the first entry in the SRD table of Modifier types.
To be untyped the text either has to specify "untyped" or the amount you are adding has to not already have a modifier type - and stat modifers have a modifier type.

By really strict RAW most of the tricks to add mutliple stats to the same thing (e.g. str + dex to damage) don't stack because they are not different modifier types (str mod and dex mod) but both the same (ability mod).

If I understand correctly, the claim is that Monks do not get a bonus to AC from dexterity. But, reading the details (www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm), I'm skeptical. It says:


The bonus ... associated with a particular ability score.

The word "particular" says each ability modifier counts as different w.r.t. the stacking rules.

The above does not preclude issues with adding the same stat modifier twice.

[SirNibbles]

It should stack. Also, I remember reading that abilities of the same name do not stack, so if you take levels of Monk, the AC Bonus (Ex) doesn't stack with Fist of The Forest's AC Bonus (Ex) because they are identical.

[Khedrac]

If I understand correctly, the claim is that Monks do not get a bonus to AC from dexterity. But, reading the details (www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm), I'm skeptical. It says:

The word "particular" says each ability modifier counts as different w.r.t. the stacking rules.

The above does not preclude issues with adding the same stat modifier twice.

Thank-you for that catch! It's what I rule anyway, but it is nice to have it confirmed as RAW not HouseRule.

[Anthrowhale]

Thank-you for that catch! It's what I rule anyway, but it is nice to have it confirmed as RAW not HouseRule.

I don't see a flaw in the argument that two different wisdom bonuses do not stack since they count as the same type (wisdom bonus). This changes the outcome for the OP, my understanding of the answer, and provides some support for MAD.

[schreier]

I can see it each way honestly - which is why I had originally posted it ...

So is the consensus that they do not stack?



The FAQ says "Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

The moon-warded ranger bonus is supernatural in origin, and is also named differently (armor of the senses). The FAQ does not seem to specifically address that?

[Khedrac]

I can see it each way honestly - which is why I had originally posted it ...

So is the consensus that they do not stack?



The FAQ says "Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

The moon-warded ranger bonus is supernatural in origin, and is also named differently (armor of the senses). The FAQ does not seem to specifically address that?

I am surprised (and pleased) - in my experience the consensus would usually be that they stack! I think there is a fair chance under RAI that they are meant to stack, but the way the rules are written they all provide a Wisdom bonus to AC and thus don't stack.

[Calthropstu]

RAW: no. RAI: no. "You can add your wisdom bonus to your AC" Nothing says you can do this twice, and from what I see, a wisdom bonus is a wisdom bonus. You can't add the same bonus twice. You are trying to stack "wisdom bonus" with "wisdom bonus" which I would argue is the same type of bonus.

[JustIgnoreMe]

I have literally never seen it argued that they do not stack before this thread.

I can see the logic behind the reasoning (that, e.g., a Wisdom bonus is a type of bonus like enhancement or sacred), but I've always seen it argued that the source of the bonus is the Class Feature or Feat that grants the bonus, not the ability (Str/Dex/Con etc.).

[Anthrowhale]

I have literally never seen it argued that they do not stack before this thread.
Me either.



I can see the logic behind the reasoning (that, e.g., a Wisdom bonus is a type of bonus like enhancement or sacred), but I've always seen it argued that the source of the bonus is the Class Feature or Feat that grants the bonus, not the ability (Str/Dex/Con etc.).

I think the claim is that the wisdom bonus is the type while the class feature is the source. Both must be different to stack.

[schreier]

I was trying to read the rules - are we basing the fact that it doesn't stack on this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Modifier Types
Ability Modifier
The bonus or penalty associated with a particular ability score. Ability modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions involving the corresponding abilities.

Are we saying that Wisdom to AC is an ability modifier, and thus would not stack since it has the same "type?"

The reason I am asking is that type specifically says "Ability modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions" ... and an AC modifier is not applying to any character action from what I can tell (it is a target DC for the opponents attack basically). At least that is how I would describe it - I could be wrong?

The FAQ that I quoted in the prior post said monk and swordsage would not stack because it has the same name, not because it shared a type. Since the Ranger ability in question has a different name, that seems to clear it?

Can someone point to a specific rule or ruling (or intepretration) that I am missing? Maybe one that specifically says attribute score bonuses to AC are an ability modifier?

[Calthropstu]

I was trying to read the rules - are we basing the fact that it doesn't stack on this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm


Are we saying that Wisdom to AC is an ability modifier, and thus would not stack since it has the same "type?"

The reason I am asking is that type specifically says "Ability modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions" ... and an AC modifier is not applying to any character action from what I can tell (it is a target DC for the opponents attack basically). At least that is how I would describe it - I could be wrong?

The FAQ that I quoted in the prior post said monk and swordsage would not stack because it has the same name, not because it shared a type. Since the Ranger ability in question has a different name, that seems to clear it?

Can someone point to a specific rule or ruling (or intepretration) that I am missing? Maybe one that specifically says attribute score bonuses to AC are an ability modifier?

I know in pathfinder the official ruling is you cannot add the same ability modifier more than once. The paladin ability to add his charisma modifier is different however because it "adds a bonus to AC equal to his charisma modifier," not "adds his charisma modifier to AC." That ability is unique in that you may then add your charisma modifier to AC via another ability.

A wisdom modifier bonus is a wisdom modifier bonus: it does not, and should not, stack with itself. I have honestly never before seen anyone try to refute that before this thread. Just as sacred does not stack with sacred and enhancement does not stack with enhancement. The wording is exactly the same in both cases from what I saw: "Adds their wisdom modifier as a bonus" The type: wisdom modifier. I see nothing that would allow these to stack since it calls out the wisdom modifier as a bonus. If they had the wording of the paladin from pathfinder "adds a bonus equal to..." it would stack, because the bonus is declared as untyped.

[schreier]

It's interesting seeing both sides say they've never seen the other side's argument. Honestly, like I said, I can see both sides.

One side seems to say "Wisdom is the type, and two Wisdoms will never stack on the same stat"

And the other says

"It is untyped, from different sources (two classes, one supernatural and one untyped), with different names, so will stack"

It is clear that Monk/Ninja/Swordsage don't stack because of the same name (at least, per the FAQ). This case is slightly different, but it could be the same answer. Like I said - can someone point out a reference that says that "an attribute bonus to a stat will never stack" or something like that? The closest I could find was what I quoted above, "ability modifiers" did not seem to perfectly fit the situation as it supposedly modified a character's roll (which, in this case, the character is not rolling)

I honestly do not have an agenda, as I am just trying to get to the right answer, with the proper justification.

[Jay R]

I honestly do not have an agenda, as I am just trying to get to the right answer, with the proper justification.

Then ask your DM.

You have now learned that there is not a clear unambiguous answer. Therefore the right answer, with the proper justification, is the DM's ruling.

[schreier]

Then ask your DM.

You have now learned that there is not a clear unambiguous answer. Therefore the right answer, with the proper justification, is the DM's ruling.

True - I was just trying to find a compelling link to a rule that stated that wisdom to AC was an attribute bonus, and that it didn't stack (or something like that), since many seemed to hold that perspective. I just don't have that link, and it may not exist ...

Thank you, and everyone honestly for the varying viewpoints

[Khedrac]

True - I was just trying to find a compelling link to a rule that stated that wisdom to AC was an attribute bonus, and that it didn't stack (or something like that), since many seemed to hold that perspective. I just don't have that link, and it may not exist ...

Thank you, and everyone honestly for the varying viewpoints

There's unlikely to be a rule like that because there are abilities that say "add your XXX stat to YYY as an insight bonus" or similar, thus a flat ruling that it is an attribute bonus would be wrong.

The main argument of the stack camp is that if doesn't say the bonus type then it must be untyped - and therefore stacks unless the names match.
The counter-claim is that your attribute modifer is an attribute modifer unless changed, so there is no need for the text saying "as an attribute modifier", at which point you can determine stacking depending on what else is happening.

Personally I don't think this is ambiguous, I think it one of the clearer bits of logical English in the rules, but I do accept that it is implicit and not directly stated. Other people's mileage seems to vary.

[schreier]

There's unlikely to be a rule like that because there are abilities that say "add your XXX stat to YYY as an insight bonus" or similar, thus a flat ruling that it is an attribute bonus would be wrong.

The main argument of the stack camp is that if doesn't say the bonus type then it must be untyped - and therefore stacks unless the names match.
The counter-claim is that your attribute modifer is an attribute modifer unless changed, so there is no need for the text saying "as an attribute modifier", at which point you can determine stacking depending on what else is happening.

Personally I don't think this is ambiguous, I think it one of the clearer bits of logical English in the rules, but I do accept that it is implicit and not directly stated. Other people's mileage seems to vary.

I agree with your point - the only sticking point to me, and it isn't definitive by any stretch, is that the "attribute modifier" mentions "modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions" and the character isn't taking an action. That is an extremely precise reading of the text though. Like the other poster said, lay the evidence on both sides out, let the DM decide it seems.

[Jay R]

I have no clear rule to point to. If I were the DM, I would rule as follows:

In general, if Feat X lets you add your WIS bonus in situations A and B, and Feat Y lets you add your WIS bonus in situations B and C, then having both should let you add your WIS bonus in situations A, B, and C. You can even do it in situation B when one of the Feats is inactive for some reason.

But it doesn't give you more wisdom, so your wisdom cannot give you more bonus than it usually gives.

[Necroticplague]

If that's true, what's the point of Motivate Charisma?

[Jay R]

If that's true, what's the point of Motivate Charisma?

It's a clear, unambiguous exception, for a class that uses Charisma differently from any other, of course.

[Anthrowhale]

... "attribute modifier" mentions "modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions" and the character isn't taking an action.

RAI seems unlikely to favor different stacking rules for AC vs. attacks. The RAW for AC modifiers is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#armorClass) but unhelpful. I don't know any direct statement that wisdom modifiers (or any stat modifier) can double apply to AC.


It's a clear, unambiguous exception, for a class that uses Charisma differently from any other, of course.

It's not an exception because:

...All bonuses granted by a marshal's auras are circumstance bonuses...

The type is "circumstance" not "charisma bonus" even though the quantity is given by a charisma bonus.