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View Full Version : Too bad I'm Chaotic, or I'd learn martial arts too...



Cryopyre
2007-07-18, 06:45 PM
The monk class irks me, especially since it implies a lot in my own game. Because I mainly use the monk to multiclass with another core class in order to get an eastern flavor ex:(ninja=rogue/monk), I run into clashing of alignment problems. So does anyone have any ideas for rules I could add that would make the monk class still limited (such as a code of rules) to follow, without actually making alignment restrictions.

Arakune
2007-07-18, 06:49 PM
give then some kind of "code of honor of combat".

if they inflict the code 3 times in all they life, they lose can't level up anymore in the class.

Spikes01k
2007-07-18, 06:58 PM
Simply don't allow them to multi class with anything that needs to be chaotic. The only reason they have those restrictions is to keep power-gaming combinations, such as barbarian and paladin. So just don't allow multi classing with a bard or I think druid and let you monk be what ever alignment you want.

Damionte
2007-07-18, 07:06 PM
Take away the alignment restrictions, the designers vision of what an eastern monk woudl be doesn't fit the modern look and feel of a martial artists that we see today. And many are going into the class in the same manner we see martial arts today, rather than the temple monk of ancient asia.

From a balance standpoint it will break nothing. Nothing at all, to let monks be of any alignment.

Poppatomus
2007-07-18, 07:14 PM
Take away the alignment restrictions, the designers vision of what an eastern monk woudl be doesn't fit the modern look and feel of a martial artists that we see today. And many are going into the class in the same manner we see martial arts today, rather than the temple monk of ancient asia.

From a balance standpoint it will break nothing. Nothing at all, to let monks be of any alignment.

This is only partly true, and I agree with the advice presented, you should just rework the fluff and abandon the restriction.

But from a fluff perspective non-chaotic makes sense for even modern martial artists of this caliber. You don't get to the kind of superhuman levels of power as a monk without absolute committment to both a system of training and regiment of living. They may not be in monasteries in the modern version of martial arts, or in your game, but those same very un-chaotic features remain. A fighter that learns in fits and starts and molds his style to fit his life is just that, a fighter. maybe a barbarian or a ranger, but not a master martial artist like a monk.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-18, 07:48 PM
Swordsage FTW!


Add a personal code of conduct, use unarmed strike variant, and it's basically a monk.

Poppatomus
2007-07-18, 07:59 PM
Swordsage FTW!


Add a personal code of conduct, use unarmed strike variant, and it's basically a monk.

Not that this is a bad suggestion, but I am unclear on how adding a personal code of conduct makes a chaotic adherent less strange.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-18, 08:01 PM
Akuma.

This destroys all arguments of Monks being Lawful-only.

Voodzik
2007-07-19, 12:01 AM
I always thought the "monks must be lawful" thing was a little silly. *shrug* Anyone see Ong Bak? Tony Jaa is NOT lawful in any way shape or form :P we should be able to emulate that too.

Xuincherguixe
2007-07-19, 12:41 AM
I've seen more then a few kung fu movies with completely insane (and evil) martial artists.

I don't think Chaotic should limit the characters from being dedicated to SOMETHING. But, it doesn't have to make sense.


Also, Akuma does have a sense of honor, so I put him in the Lawful Evil camp. Doesn't he only kill people he feels are worth fighting to the death?

BDEYE
2007-07-19, 11:01 PM
Require Monks to be non-Chaotic, rather then Lawful, and allow the use of the Monastic Training feat from Eberron. (Allows Monks to Multi-class and can be taken as the 1st, 2nd, or 6th level bonus feat.)

Another option would be an Unarmed Fighter build: between Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, Dash, and Combat Expertise+high BAB you can simulate a lot of Monkish flavor. It sucks to lose those skill points but if you're multi-classing into Rogue anyway...

Rob Knotts
2007-07-19, 11:27 PM
Akuma.

This destroys all arguments of Monks being Lawful-only.Akuma/Gouki is definitely evil, but being non-lawful is debatable. From The Fighter's Generation (http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters/akuma.html):

Moral code
Akuma fights only to test his strength and his opponent's. This means that he will only fight opponents that will provide a challenge, hence his refusal to fight unworthy challengers under any circumstances. Akuma will only kill opponents who are as strong as he, which is why he stopped his fight with Gen after realizing that he was ill. While Akuma killed his brother and his teacher, he did so in the confines of the code of the warrior, where the field of battle does not distinguish between friend and foe. Akuma believes he committed no transgression whatsoever. Also, with the exception of Gouken and Goutetsu, Akuma usually only fights those who challenge him instead of picking fights.

Elana
2007-07-20, 03:33 AM
Actually there is not much problem with the alignment.

Chaotic people just don't take very many levels of monk, as they get bored by it and multiclass away from monk.
(That is assuming a chaotic player of course)

Roderick_BR
2007-07-20, 07:06 AM
Non-chaotic works fine. People say that monks are not very strong at all, so they don't really need that many restrictions.
I just don't think that a chaotic character can advance properly on a class that requires focus and dedication.
I heard some movies where the main fighter seens chaotic, but if you notice, every time he advances in his style, he needs to force himself to focus on his training. That's, at best, non-chaotic.
If you'll use a swordsage from Tome of Battle, you could put the non-chaotic alignment as flavor, since the unarmed attack bonus is just a suggested optional rule anyway.
I mean, that variant takes away one feat (light armor), and gives you 3 others feats (improved unarmed strike, and superior unarmed damage + improved natural strike, being that you can still get the actual improved natural strike feat later)

Durin_Deathless
2007-07-20, 01:20 PM
its not that chaotic people cant learn martial arts(Imp unarmed strike, and the new unarmed feat from BONS) its that it requires so much hard work and dedication that non-lawfull people just cant do it. they just dont have the right mentality for it. this speaks nothing of weither or not they follow the laws of the land or not but of their inner disciplin(sorry i dont know how to spell)

Eighth_Seraph
2007-07-21, 02:11 PM
I'm actually in the process of making a sort of chaotic alternative to the monk, called the Vagrant (there's a link in my sig). I'm in the process of a complete revamp for it, but it looks to me to work well.

Anyway, speaking as a martial artist myself, I'd like to say that when you look at people who have actually become competent practitioners of the martial arts, you'll see that the discipline necessary to become that good translates to most areas of one's life. The thing that D&D doesn't take into account is that most people, when first learning martial arts, become horrible fighters if the already had a self-taught style. The first step is un-learning the old reflexes, the swinging punches and dramatic style, in order to learn how to straight punch, kick without losing balance or momentum, and doing it all without seriously hurting your opponent (that last part probably doesn't need to be taken into account, but still). The lawful part of being a monk is in keeping on in the training by looking at the long-term rewards while looking at yourself and knowing that you're going to be vulnerable.

I wrote all of that to say that it is extremely difficult for a chaotic person to follow the martial arts to the extent that he could use it as an applicable weapon. I've met a few black belts in tournaments that were on the fence between lawful and neutral (by that point, intense training is a fun thing to do and doesn't require as much discipline), but a competent and chaotic martial artist is difficult for me to imagine. Non-chaotic as a requirement works just fine.

Cryopyre
2007-07-21, 10:35 PM
its not that chaotic people cant learn martial arts(Imp unarmed strike, and the new unarmed feat from BONS) its that it requires so much hard work and dedication that non-lawfull people just cant do it. they just dont have the right mentality for it. this speaks nothing of weither or not they follow the laws of the land or not but of their inner disciplin(sorry i dont know how to spell)

Exactly, but what about rogues, they can have inner discipline without being lawful, it's not like all rogues have none of this, you see, this is where alignment fails.

I know about martial arts, I was one. I may not still be, and you can blame that on a lack of self discipline, but even when you do have full focus on your training, you can still use it for chaotic means like thieving or sneaking.

Otherwise, there'd be no ninjas.

Serenity
2007-07-21, 11:00 PM
Why should we allow chaotic monks? Two words: Ranma. Saotome.

Chronos
2007-07-21, 11:14 PM
Exactly, but what about rogues, they can have inner discipline without being lawful, it's not like all rogues have none of this, you see, this is where alignment fails.Indeed, and so rogues have no alignment restriction. They're usually chaotic, but there's nothing stopping a player from making a lawful good rogue (Shelock Holmes would be an example, for instance).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-21, 11:37 PM
Of course, the ironic thing is that the iconic personifications people are pulling out as 'monk' are, in fact, not able to be duplicated with the Monk class. Most of the anime stuff can be duplicated with Swordsage (which is, in my opinion, far superior to Monk in every way), which leads me to believe that everyone from Ranma to Akuma to Akane are in fact not monks, but swordsages.

Cybren
2007-07-22, 12:22 AM
I'm actually in the process of making a sort of chaotic alternative to the monk, called the Vagrant (there's a link in my sig). I'm in the process of a complete revamp for it, but it looks to me to work well.

I wrote all of that to say that it is extremely difficult for a chaotic person to follow the martial arts to the extent that he could use it as an applicable weapon. I've met a few black belts in tournaments that were on the fence between lawful and neutral (by that point, intense training is a fun thing to do and doesn't require as much discipline), but a competent and chaotic martial artist is difficult for me to imagine. Non-chaotic as a requirement works just fine.

Not really, no. "Martial arts" are about effectively fighting in hand-to-hand (and, occasionally, other forms of) combat. That doesn't require anymore discipline than any other athletic endeavor; that is, having it will help severely but lacking it won't literally forbid you from practicing.

Cryopyre
2007-07-22, 12:41 AM
Indeed, and so rogues have no alignment restriction. They're usually chaotic, but there's nothing stopping a player from making a lawful good rogue (Shelock Holmes would be an example, for instance).

I would have sworn that the limits are non-lawful

Also, what book are swordsages in?

Rob Knotts
2007-07-22, 01:20 AM
Why should we allow chaotic monks? Two words: Ranma. Saotome.It's great seeing a cosmological/philosophical concept reduced to nothing more than the stupidity and/or immaturity displayed by one specific comedic character:smallamused:

Dronin
2007-07-22, 04:58 AM
I would have sworn that the limits are non-lawful

Also, what book are swordsages in?

nope the rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm) is any alignment
you can have:
a LG sleuth
a LN Locksmith or
a LE mob boss

sorry dont know the swordsage either


Edit:OK I was thinking ya know Wizards have to study and train. Yet they are not restricted to only lawful. If we make the argument that the necessity to train be lawful then Wizard should be lawful also.
Just playing devils advocate:smallamused:

Attilargh
2007-07-22, 05:02 AM
Also, what book are swordsages in?
Tome of Battle - the Book of Nine Swords.

Serenity
2007-07-22, 02:39 PM
It's great seeing a cosmological/philosophical concept reduced to nothing more than the stupidity and/or immaturity displayed by one specific comedic character:smallamused:

'Twas a joke, my good man, and intended to be silly. That said, almost every single person in the series is possessed of inhuman martial arts ability and/or ki attacks, and all display an undeniable tendency towards Chaos.

Tiki Snakes
2007-07-22, 03:10 PM
Bruce Lee - Jeet Kune Do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Jeet_Kune_Do)

Does this sound specifically Lawful to you? Jeet Kune Do, I'd argue, is actually a very Chaotic philosophy, in that it represents an active rejection of laws and codification. Likewise much of Bruce Lee's character hardly seems, in my opinion, inherantly Lawful.

"Be formless... shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be like water, my friend..."

I see no reason that martial arts should be limited to an alignment that represents an abstract upholding of order, law and rule.
No-where does it say that chaotic means a lack of attention-span, or erratic behavior. (Or it certainly shouldn't. >_>)

Chaotic can quite happily mean merely a rejection of law for law's sake. I see no reason at all to limit the Monk class to lawful, or even just non-chaotic, in as much as it stands as the token base-martial-artist class. Either it should not be a standard class, (and be replaced by a general martial artist base-class) or it should be open to all alignments.

In my opinion, at least. ^_^

belboz
2007-07-22, 03:23 PM
Personally, I don't think much is lost by allowing non-lawful monks. There's nothing in the Chaotic alignment that implies a lack of inner discipline. Unfettered personal freedom includes the freedom to pursue an intensely dedicated path.

What chaotic characters might have trouble with in many common monastic pictures is rigid, hierarchical authority. They might have trouble finding a master who was willing to put up with a student who refused to be completely deferential. But it certainly *could* be done.

(And the point about wizards is a good one. Traditional fantasy pictures of wizards generally involve a *lot* of dedication, yet requiring lawful, or even non-chaotic, wizards would seem a bit odd.)

Tiki Snakes
2007-07-22, 03:27 PM
Personally, I don't think much is lost by allowing non-lawful monks. There's nothing in the Chaotic alignment that implies a lack of inner discipline. Unfettered personal freedom includes the freedom to pursue an intensely dedicated path.

What chaotic characters might have trouble with in many common monastic pictures is rigid, hierarchical authority. They might have trouble finding a master who was willing to put up with a student who refused to be completely deferential. But it certainly *could* be done.

(And the point about wizards is a good one. Traditional fantasy pictures of wizards generally involve a *lot* of dedication, yet requiring lawful, or even non-chaotic, wizards would seem a bit odd.)

In a world where monk's don't have to be Lawful, there would, I'm sure, be Masters who are likewise non-lawful, and who would have their own training techniques. As for the specifically Monastery related bit, well. I never really understood that, anyway. Are they fist-fighting clerics? what's so religious about a DnD monk? >_>

Use it, or lose it. If you want Monks to stay Monk by name as well as by class, let's face it, there are gods of every alignment, and I'm sure it's within reason to have a Chaotic Monastery of some kind.

Triaxx
2007-07-22, 06:02 PM
Non-Lawful is a hold over from 2e, I sometimes have to remind my players about that.

A Drunken Monkey Monk would be a good example of a real world Chaotic Monk.

Maglor_Grubb
2007-07-23, 04:45 AM
In a world where monk's don't have to be Lawful, there would, I'm sure, be Masters who are likewise non-lawful, and who would have their own training techniques. As for the specifically Monastery related bit, well. I never really understood that, anyway. Are they fist-fighting clerics? what's so religious about a DnD monk? >_>

Use it, or lose it. If you want Monks to stay Monk by name as well as by class, let's face it, there are gods of every alignment, and I'm sure it's within reason to have a Chaotic Monastery of some kind.

A chaotic monastry? Sounds like an oxymoron to me... I don't like speaking in extremes, but I don't think any chaotic character would be happy living in a monastry. Although a chaotic monastry would be radicly different from any kind of monastry I know, question is if it would be a monastry if it didn't have an insanely structured live.

Dronin
2007-07-23, 08:00 AM
Chaotic monastery I would envision a martial arts commune, where people feed of of everyone else's styles and techniques. less structure as there is respect for those with more skill. everyone benefits and people come and go as they please.

The D&D monk has moved away from being religious there is no game mechanic reason for a D&D monk to actually follow a god. I agree that there should be a change like thief to rouge for monk to fade away to Martial artist.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-07-23, 02:12 PM
Does this sound specifically Lawful to you? Jeet Kune Do, I'd argue, is actually a very Chaotic philosophy, in that it represents an active rejection of laws and codification. Likewise much of Bruce Lee's character hardly seems, in my opinion, inherantly Lawful.

"Be formless... shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, and it can crash. Be like water, my friend..."

I see no reason that martial arts should be limited to an alignment that represents an abstract upholding of order, law and rule.
Hrm, now this presents an interesting scenario. See, while the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do (from what you've presented, I've never heard of it before) presents a martial artist with the constant need to change and adapt, it does so only in the physical sense. You'd still see Bruce Lee following a strict training regimen in order to keep up the skill and power necessary to be an exceptional martial artist.

There are martial arts based around the entire concept that rules and laws only serve to restrain the limitless capacity of the human body, and that such regulations should be avoided and ignored. The people practicing those martial arts are also extremely devoted to self-perfection, to the extent that their own dedication serves in place of outside regulation. That basic need is what leads me to conclude that a chaotic character would never achieve monk level 1, since that drive to become the best that one can be for its own sake, and the mental capacity to keep at it when things get tough simply isn't there.

Then again, this is a roleplaying game. If one wishes to make a character with the strength of will to learn the martial arts despite a disregard for strict self-discipline and control, then it could be done. I'm taking this too personally, it seems; since chaotic martial artist characters have been made before (Akuma seems to be a strong example; I never got too into Street Fighters). I just find it difficult to envision a real-life chaotic martial artist; but that's not the question here, is it?

Tiki Snakes
2007-07-24, 04:58 AM
Hrm, now this presents an interesting scenario. See, while the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do (from what you've presented, I've never heard of it before) presents a martial artist with the constant need to change and adapt, it does so only in the physical sense. You'd still see Bruce Lee following a strict training regimen in order to keep up the skill and power necessary to be an exceptional martial artist.

There are martial arts based around the entire concept that rules and laws only serve to restrain the limitless capacity of the human body, and that such regulations should be avoided and ignored. The people practicing those martial arts are also extremely devoted to self-perfection, to the extent that their own dedication serves in place of outside regulation. That basic need is what leads me to conclude that a chaotic character would never achieve monk level 1, since that drive to become the best that one can be for its own sake, and the mental capacity to keep at it when things get tough simply isn't there.

Then again, this is a roleplaying game. If one wishes to make a character with the strength of will to learn the martial arts despite a disregard for strict self-discipline and control, then it could be done. I'm taking this too personally, it seems; since chaotic martial artist characters have been made before (Akuma seems to be a strong example; I never got too into Street Fighters). I just find it difficult to envision a real-life chaotic martial artist; but that's not the question here, is it?


A chaotic fighter must train his body to a strict regiment, in theory, to master his chosen weapon, develop his combat techniques and so on. A chaotic wizard must spend years of his life in near-constant daily study before he even gets access to the level 0 cantrips. A Chaotic sorceror, by all accounts, devotes his entire life and adventuring campaign to honing his magical abilities.

Lawful does not mean disciplined. Lawful does not mean dedicated. Lawful does not imply that you are any-more capable of self-control than Chaotic.
The problem here isn't that there are no chaotic Martial artists, it's simply that your definition of Chaotic is different from my own. :)

I'd say, frankly, that Bruce Lee probably counts as pretty damn close to a Chaotic Martial artist. He certainly wasn't lawful!

I know that some interpretations of law vs chaos follow much closer to your own than mine, but such interpretations, for my mind, swing a little too close to the old, Lawful = good, chaotic = evil thing that certain official sources, afaik, used to tend towards.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-07-24, 08:22 AM
And thus we conclude, as all alignment debates inevitably do, that the problem lies within the alignment system itself. Alright, alright. Let's just stick a fork in this one and call it done with the following statement: "The alignment system is too simple and/or badly defined to properly represent the various traits we wish to isolate in order to represent a feasible chaotic martial artist or the argument that the above cannot/should not be done."

Everyone okay with that?

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-24, 10:13 AM
Anytime there is a required Code for a class, and the class is changed to allow in chaotics, something is wrong. This is the issue with variant Chaotic Paladins: the nature of chaotics is that they don't follow rules, codes, traditions, laws, etc. except for the ones they want to. And they can change what they want at any time. Therefore it makes little sense to impose a Code of Conduct on someone that expressly won't follow it.