Unarmored Defense Feat?

[Fightmaster]

So I was considering introducing Unarmored Defense (10+ Dexterity modifier + Constitution modifier) as a feat in my games, but I'm not certain if a feat is a fair trade off or not. I haven't seen this come up before, so I'd like multiple opinions. Do you guys think this'd be unbalancing?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eh. It steals a bit of the Barbarian's thunder, but I don't think it's imbalanced as such-- stat-to-AC isn't that much better than wearing armor, and while everyone needs Con most classes can't really pump it that much. I might do a static 13+Dex instead; still a solid option for armor but nothing really outstanding or distinctive.

[CantigThimble]

I think that's pretty reasonable. Be warned that this is stronger in games where you roll stats than if you use point but, where a Good rolls can render heavy armor obsolete.

[Naanomi]

My first instinct is it would be too strong, but probably not to an unsettling degree... it would be a few more AC on most Dex-based characters (biggest beneficiaries: swashbucklers, rangers, dexterity based champions? Some casters?). More that it steps on Barbarian's toes a bit than anything

[Spectre9000]

I'd recommend doing 10+Dex+Int instead. First, it doesn't take away from Barbarians or Monks, and secondly, it makes Intelligence look much more appealing, which is good considering so many consider it a dump stat.

[Gryndle]

I don't think its unbalanced as a feat.

In fact, my group simply allows certain classes to swap their armor proficiencies for the barbarian's version of Unarmored Defense. Its still an underused option.

the mechanical effect is that new characters might begin play with a slightly higher AC. but in my experience, their AC grows at a slower rate as they progress in levels (unless you are pretty generous with AC increasing items)

[Naanomi]

I'd recommend doing 10+Dex+Int instead. First, it doesn't take away from Barbarians or Monks, and secondly, it makes Intelligence look much more appealing, which is good considering so many consider it a dump stat.
This in the hands of a wizard (especially perhaps a bladesinger) would be pretty broken I think, I'd approve the Dex+Con one first...

[Malifice]

Unarmored defence

When you select this feat choose one of Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma, or Intelligence.

When you are not wearing armor or using a shield and are not incapacitated, you may calculate your AC using 10 + Dex + the abilty score modifier you choose when you select this feat.
You add +1 to your chosen ability score to a maximum value of 20

[jas61292]

This in the hands of a wizard (especially perhaps a bladesinger) would be pretty broken I think, I'd approve the Dex+Con one first...

I don't really think it would be that big a deal. Wizards mainly rely on three stats: Int, Dex and Con. Assuming point buy, the best AC you can normally start out with is 16 (13 [mage armor] + 3 [Dex]). With this proposed feat, your maximum starting stat would also be 16 (10 + 3 [Dex] + 3 [Int]), however, instead of costing 1 spell known and cast, it costs you a feat, which not only would I argue is more expensive, but, unless you are a v.human, doesn't even come online until level 4. And, of course, if you are taking this as your feat at level 4, you are not boosting any of your stats, meaning that either your Int is lower (and you are a worse wizard) or you Dex is lower (so your AC is lower anyways).

Now, as you get higher in level, it is an advantage, certainly. But you only really pull even at level 8, and don't pull ahead until level 12. At most, by level 16 your feat has given you 2 more AC than the best normal wizard who has the same Dex/Con priorities as you. And not until late game. Seems perfectly reasonable as a feat. And letting other classes essentially pull off light armor without the need for actual armor, so long as they have a bit of Int is also super reasonable.

Now, of course, if you are a v.human wizard and take it from the start, is is far more powerful, since you give up nothing and are always ahead in AC. But then, v.human is a poorly designed and unbalanced race that I personally don't think should ever be allowed.... so.... yeah.....

[Naanomi]

And the high level bladesinger is now rocking 25 or more AC + Shield...

[Sicarius Victis]

And the high level bladesinger is now rocking 25 or more AC + Shield...

You mean, the way they typically already do?

[jas61292]

You mean, the way they typically already do?

Indeed. And yet that never stopped them from being a decidedly mediocre subclass.

But of course that has more to do with the fact that wizarding is the best thing a wizard can do, and a subclass that has nothing to do with wizarding is inherently not going to be as powerful as one that improves the wizard's wizarding. Make the AC 30 for all I care. It still won't be that good.

[djreynolds]

Unarmored defence

When you select this feat choose one of Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma, or Intelligence.

When you are not wearing armor or using a shield and are not incapacitated, you may calculate your AC using 10 + Dex + the abilty score modifier you choose when you select this feat.
You add +1 to your chosen ability score to a maximum value of 20


This looks very fair.

Only the barbarian can use the shield... that's fair

And this way, its a feat you only get 5 (most of the classes)

And you cannot use mage armor with this so the max your ac is going to be is 20 barring

And yes a bladesinger could get some mileage out of for 2 minutes a short rest, but Mr Mearles tweeted you cannot use both recently, so it depends what on sage advice you read, at the end of the day its 25 AC (assuming max con) plus the shield spell or 23AC (mage armor) plus the shield spell

YES YOU CAN
Daganev ‎@Daganev

@JeremyECrawford Can you confirm that the Bladesinger Int bonus to AC is supposed to stack with other AC bonuses?

Jeremy Crawford ‎@JeremyECrawford

If the bonus didn't stack with other bonuses, its description would say so. #DnD https://twitter.com/Daganev/status/663447548498198528 …

NO YOU CANNOT
Freehuggles @clare_hugill

@mikemearls hi I had questions of you dont mind.if you have a monk bladesingin wizard can you and the int to the Unarmoured defence of monk

(((Mike Mearls))) ‎@mikemearls

@clare_hugill believe no - either use bladesinger AC or monk AC #WOTCstaff

[Naanomi]

I would be even more wary of the proposed half-feat form... choosing the stats makes it an almost auto-pick for moon Druids, blade locks. Blade singers... and mostly other casters would also benefit greatly at mid/high levels (who design philosophy probably are not intended for simple AC superiority over mundanes)... and the bonus stat seems over the top... start at 17 in a stat, 'oh this level four feat gives me an attack stat bump, an AC now, probably another AC on the future, and somewhere around +3-5 AC if wildshaped or bladesinging? Good chance it is saving me a spell slot (or perhaps invocation) as well'

And what is the fluff on this feat exactly?

[Caelestion]

And the high level bladesinger is now rocking 25 or more AC + Shield...

Um, how does that happen? They have 13 + Dex from mage armour, + Int from bladesong, +5 vs. one attack from shield. Where's the rest coming from?

[Spectre9000]

Go Dwarf, Wood Elf, or Half Wood Elf (fleet of foot), take a level of fighter, then go Wizard. You're sporting a min AC of 20 with Plate and Shield with a movespeed of 25. You still get all ASI, and everything but the wizard capstone which isn't that spectacular anyway, and are only half a spell level behind in progression.

Now, take this feat, and you magically have 20 AC only after heavy ASI investment to get both Dex and Int to max. Say you start out with 16 in Dex and Int, you need 4 ASI to max them both, and this feat would be their fifth ASI.

Your issue was bladesingers. So, let's look at them... they get currently: Mage Armor + Dex = 13 + Dex, for a max of 18 AC + Shield = 20 AC. Now, whilst using bladesong, that changes to 13 + Dex + Int = 23 AC.

But wait, there's more! Bladesingers are melee classes, so if they wanted this feat, simply go Barbarian for unarmored defense (not to mention picking up rage, constitution saving throws, and weapon proficiencies). Now with only a one level dip, they can already get this feat you want to deny them and have 25 AC (10+Dex+Con+Int) if they can find ASI to max all stats. This route I would say is still preferable to picking up the feat given that it doesn't cost an ASI, which are incredibly valuable. Even if you had this feat, I would still Multiclass for it.

[Naanomi]

But wait, there's more! Bladesingers are melee classes, so if they wanted this feat, simply go Barbarian for unarmored defense (not to mention picking up rage, constitution saving throws, and weapon proficiencies). Now with only a one level dip, they can already get this feat you want to deny them and have 25 AC (10+Dex+Con+Int) if they can find ASI to max all stats.
Making a character have the 'absolutely best AC' on 2 Stats is a lot different than doing the same on 3 Stats

[Caelestion]

Making a character have the 'absolutely best AC' on 2 Stats is a lot different than doing the same on 3 Stats

And said hypothetical character with three 20s in their stat line is going to break a lot more expectations than merely having a very high AC.

[Sicarius Victis]

Making a character have the 'absolutely best AC' on 2 Stats is a lot different than doing the same on 3 Stats

And considering that the third stat is the one they'll be boosting immediately after the other two anyways...

[XmonkTad]

Unarmored defence

When you select this feat choose one of Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma, or Intelligence.

When you are not wearing armor or using a shield and are not incapacitated, you may calculate your AC using 10 + Dex + the abilty score modifier you choose when you select this feat.
You add +1 to your chosen ability score to a maximum value of 20


I like this version of the feat, but I worry it's too strong for casters. Wild Magic sorcerer in particular seems like it would benefit a lot from this.

How about a feat that let's you calculate unarmored AC as 10+proficiency bonus? That way it scales, but can't be pumped, and makes dex less appealing to pump. It's also decidedly weaker than monk/barbarian unarmored AC.

[zebezt]

I'm considering something like this, but not a feat.
I want to make a monk/cleric hybrid by making a cleric domain that does not allow any weapons/armor except for a staff.
Armor would be equal to 10+wis+dex (so quite high).
Some of the monk abilities will be copied, like turning fists into magic weapons.
I wouldn't give this character all the Ki attacks though, and probably no second attack either.
The cleric would be going around in just a loincloth and covered in tattoo's that function as a holy symbol.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How about a feat that let's you calculate unarmored AC as 10+proficiency bonus? That way it scales, but can't be pumped, and makes dex less appealing to pump. It's also decidedly weaker than monk/barbarian unarmored AC.
With no Dex? Pathetically weak; you're literally better off not taking the feat.

[Balyano]

The way I did it involves the proficiency bonus.

10+proficiency bonus+dexterity modifier

[Naanomi]

The way I did it involves the proficiency bonus.

10+proficiency bonus+dexterity modifier
So at high level, better than any armor option?

[Balyano]

So at high level, better than any armor option?

So at high level you are jedi.

Also you have no ability to have magic armor if you do it. Probably disallow shield as well to balance a little more.

But I had it as a class ability, not a feat.

[Socratov]

Um, how does that happen? They have 13 + Dex from mage armour, + Int from bladesong, +5 vs. one attack from shield. Where's the rest coming from?

Please note that once you pop it, it stays until your next turn.


Shield
1st-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell
Range: Self Components: V, S Duration: 1 round
An invisible barrier of magical force appears and protects you. Until the start of your next turn, you have a +5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack, and you take no damage from magic missile.
(bolding mine)

[N810]

Maybe 10+Str+Dex ?
most martials tend to use one or the other, but rarely both...
well except barbarian, but he already has unarmored defense.

[Hrugner]

The 10+dex+prof version seems awfully close to the defensive duelist feat, I'm not sure anyone uses their reaction enough to chose the constant version over the dd version.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The 10+dex+prof version seems awfully close to the defensive duelist feat, I'm not sure anyone uses their reaction enough to chose the constant version over the dd version.
1) Defensive Duelist is on top of your normal armor class
2) Defensive Duelist only works for one attack per round

[GlenSmash!]

I'm always wary of taking a certain class's feature and turning it into a feat, unless in's in a slimmed down form like magic initiate or Martial Adept. Otherwise you steal that classes thunder.

That being said I don't think it breaks balance.

[Caelestion]

Please note that once you pop it, it stays until your next turn.

Fair enough, but I still don't think that "high-level X" should be taken to read as "has all relevant stats of 20", as if having the literal maximum score is a proper representative of 'balance'.

[Socratov]

Fair enough, but I still don't think that "high-level X" should be taken to read as "has all relevant stats of 20", as if having the literal maximum score is a proper representative of 'balance'.

It's not a representative of all cases, but it's representative of what it can reach for a ceiling. That is something you can count on when looking for possible ways of abuse. It's what you can expect to happen worst case. And that's why it's important in balancing.

[Caelestion]

Fair enough, but I'll stand by the point that if your character is going for their third ability at 20, the campaign has a lot more potential problems than just a character's very high AC.

[RSP]

One more for "not broken," though I'd recommend not adding the +1 to stat. It seem along the lines of Magic Initiate in that it gives an ability of another level 1 class but isn't as good as taking the dip.

[Naanomi]

One more for "not broken," though I'd recommend not adding the +1 to stat. It seem along the lines of Magic Initiate in that it gives an ability of another level 1 class but isn't as good as taking the dip.
And limit it to Constitution (casters don't need to start hedging into melee power any easier than they already can in my opinion). Drop the stat boost and limit it to Con and it would be strong in a few cases but not overly so

[bid]

So I was considering introducing Unarmored Defense (10+ Dexterity modifier + Constitution modifier) as a feat in my games, but I'm not certain if a feat is a fair trade off or not. I haven't seen this come up before, so I'd like multiple opinions. Do you guys think this'd be unbalancing?
Vuman fighter, Dex16 / Con16, shield + defense style = AC19
Level 8, shield master and Dex20 = AC21
Level 14, Dex20 / Con 20 = AC 23
That Str fighter with heavy armor would need a plate+2 to match AC.

You can start 8 16 16 10 13 10, making this possible for fighter and ranger. Rogue and maybe bladelock can reach AC20. Dexadin could work too. Others can't do better than studded armor.

It mostly benefits martials who want to be tanks, which will strongthen the whole party. Most casters will be happy to have a better front line. Cleric can adapt to the back line, but barbarian and monk become less interesting classes.


I think it's a nice variation, and you can always fix any unbalance by judicious magic items.

[Rainbownaga]

You can't use defence style unless you're wearing armour.

[Markoff Chainey]

Use proficiency / 2 +1 - This way it stays relevant on all levels, is potentially suited for all classes, is slightly worse than the existing class features and therefore avoids stepping on others' turf.

It really is a bad idea to either link it to CON, CHA , INT or WIS or whatever - for already said reasons. A "hard" bonus is also not good because it would be too good for VHumans and suck on higher levels.

If you want that feat, I would give it a more specific focus depending on what you want it for. - Who shall use it? What is the fluff? I would add a small second or maybe even third ability to build that.

One suggestion for such a feat.. (assuming its meant for Warriors who do not want to wear armor for "style")

Dashing Swordsman
- Instead of any other way to calculate your AC, you may calculate it using 10 + DEX + half proficiency level (rounded up).
- As a bonus action, you may Taunt an opponent. The opponent must succeed a WIS save against 10 + your intimidation, performance or persuasion bonus (your choice) or suffer disadvantage on all actions but attacking you for the next round.
- You gain advantage on acrobatics or athletics skill checks that bear unnecessary danger for your health if you perform them in public with the intention to show off.

[bid]

You can't use defence style unless you're wearing armour.
Oops, true. And you can't use mariner with a shield...

[JackPhoenix]

YES YOU CAN
Daganev ‎@Daganev

@JeremyECrawford Can you confirm that the Bladesinger Int bonus to AC is supposed to stack with other AC bonuses?

Jeremy Crawford ‎@JeremyECrawford

If the bonus didn't stack with other bonuses, its description would say so. #DnD https://twitter.com/Daganev/status/663447548498198528 …

JC is right, Bladesinging gives +Int to AC, it's not a different calculation of base AC (like normal or mage armor, monk or barbarian UD, dragon sorcerer ability, etc.)


NO YOU CANNOT
Freehuggles @clare_hugill

@mikemearls hi I had questions of you dont mind.if you have a monk bladesingin wizard can you and the int to the Unarmoured defence of monk

(((Mike Mearls))) ‎@mikemearls

@clare_hugill believe no - either use bladesinger AC or monk AC #WOTCstaff

MM propably didn't even looked at the ability, his "believe no" pretty much admits he's not certain. In any case, he's got no real authority in SA, JC does.


Um, how does that happen? They have 13 + Dex from mage armour, + Int from bladesong, +5 vs. one attack from shield. Where's the rest coming from?

13+Dex on an elf character who prefers to have high Dex means 16 or more, + Int means at least +3, possibly more if you're rolling for stats instead of using standard array, and Shield gives +5 AC until the end of your next turn, not against one attack. Possible AC 24 at level 2 (though with 2 spell investment and for one round/LR). With level 18 or higher Wizard, you can have unlimited uses of Shield, and by that time, you most likely have Int and possibly Dex 20 (Assuming starting 16/16, ASIs in Int/Dex, and one feat left... meaning AC 28 without magic items. It gets higher if you get +2 or +3 studded leather or Bracers of Defense

[Aryjna]

It seems most people believe this would not be broken, but in my opinion it would be.

It can make a very big difference, especially for characters that use dexterity as a primary stat. The barbarian that normally has this ability is designed so that players will usually favour strength, and in this way can rarely use it to its full potential. Giving it to everyone for a feat would be a mistake, both balance-wise and rp-wise.

If someone really wants it, they can always multiclass for it, and get the significant benefits of 1-3 barbarian levels as well.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I was considering introducing Unarmored Defense (10+ Dexterity modifier + Constitution modifier) as a feat in my games, but I'm not certain if a feat is a fair trade off or not. I haven't seen this come up before, so I'd like multiple opinions. Do you guys think this'd be unbalancing?

I'd try to come up with a justification for the second modifier;

Barbarians get constitution because they are so tough; Monks get wisdom because they intuit attacks, for both classes the second stat is actually important to the class, and Con is universally the 2nd or 3rd key stat.

What class do you envision taking this? Fighter? Ranger? Rogue? I.e. Who is this geared towards?

[Joe the Rat]

I'm most intrigued by the 10+Dex+Proficiency (no armor or shield) version. It's ungameable - there is no way to use your core class stats to double-load one to provide AC and another benefit (mental stats for casters, frex.). +2 to start, up to +6 at 17th level. It keeps parity with the class-based Unarmored Defense options, if they are raising that attribute. Not allowing shields keeps that a Barbarian trait. If you are neglecting your secondary for some reason, this becomes useful to monks and barbs as well. Hell, it can be useful to anyone where 6+Dex beats whatever they could have for armor at 17th level... or 3+Dex at 5th. The wrinkle here is that you are getting added benefit without additional resource expense (ASI into a stat besides DEX).

If Bladesinger is the critical abuse point, you could do the 2nd stat version, but limit this to other stats (CON or WIS to reflect current options, or add CHA for a little panache defense, which would be awesome on a Swashbuckler).


If someone really wants it, they can always multiclass for it, and get the significant benefits of 1-3 barbarian levels as well.Dip for one feature and a bunch of other stuff, or a feat for only that feature in a limited or modified form. That actually works out decently - and fits with a lot of the existing feats.

[Drackolus]

Doesn't seem to break anything I could think of. Worst thing I could see is a vhuman dual-wield dex paladin, and it would definitely be strong... But not much. Ek's and At's could use it as well, but even then, it wouldn't be obscene. An EK could dual-wield, cast well, and still have great ac.

[Socratov]

I'm most intrigued by the 10+Dex+Proficiency (no armor or shield) version. It's ungameable - there is no way to use your core class stats to double-load one to provide AC and another benefit (mental stats for casters, frex.). +2 to start, up to +6 at 17th level. It keeps parity with the class-based Unarmored Defense options, if they are raising that attribute. Not allowing shields keeps that a Barbarian trait. If you are neglecting your secondary for some reason, this becomes useful to monks and barbs as well. Hell, it can be useful to anyone where 6+Dex beats whatever they could have for armor at 17th level... or 3+Dex at 5th. The wrinkle here is that you are getting added benefit without additional resource expense (ASI into a stat besides DEX).

If Bladesinger is the critical abuse point, you could do the 2nd stat version, but limit this to other stats (CON or WIS to reflect current options, or add CHA for a little panache defense, which would be awesome on a Swashbuckler).

Dip for one feature and a bunch of other stuff, or a feat for only that feature in a limited or modified form. That actually works out decently - and fits with a lot of the existing feats.

Well, in this case, say you are using a dex martial character (and pump dex) that brings your high level AC to 21. That is on it's own equivalent to: a similarly specced character with +2 studded leather +shield (12+2+5+2=21), a character with Medium Armour Master, 16 dex, +1 half plate and a shield. Or a character with +1 Plate and a shield.

And the character picking the feat can always bear a shield to raise his AC to 23.

Now, turning the feat into 10+[stat]+1/2 proficiency makes for a great choice: high level it's equal to mage armour (which requires a daily spell slot or dragon sorcerer), attach a +1 [stat] to the feat and you're done. Now you can give someone a choice: either get a decent base AC for a feat (Your AC won't do less then a dragon sorc), at a favourable stat and a boost to that stat (some stats are hard to boost). If it's not enough, maybe attach a feature based on the stat chosen:


Strength: Bolstered Defence - When attacked, but missed, you may spend a reaction to gain an attack of opportunity. Once you use this feature you may not use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Dexterity: Evasive Defence - When attacked, but missed, you may spend a reaction to [something]. Once you use this feature you may not use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Constitution: Enduring Defence - When attacked, but missed, you may spend a reaction to disarm the opponent. Once you use this feature you may not use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Intelligence: Canny Defence - When attacked, but missed, you may spend a reaction to move up to your speed. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the attacker. Once you use this feature you may not use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Wisdom: Insightful Defence - When attacked, but missed, you may spend a reaction to gain advantage on your next attack action against the attacker. Once you use this feature you may not use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
Charisma: Goadful Defence - When hit, you may spend a reaction to taunt the attacker (charisma save DC 8+proficiency+Charisma modifier). On a failed save your opponent attacks you at disadvantage on his next attack action against you. Once you use this feature you may not use it again until you finish a short or long rest.