Tarrasque vs 1 Billion Rats - Pathfinder

[Pivotblazing]

Alright, so I was talking to a friend of mine over Skype, and he was looking through the pathfinder SRD. It has info for buying animals and he noticed that rats, were very cheap. In fact, 100,000 gold could get you a billion rats. That got me thinking. Could a pathfinder Tarrasque be killed by that many rats?

Here's what I'm thinking. A Tarrasque has greater cleave, but is bound to eventually roll a 1. It wins initiative, but eventually, it's turn will end. And then the rats start attacking. They can only deal nonlethal damage because of damage reduction, but once the Tarrasque becomes unconscious, the rats start dealing lethal damage. Eventually they begin consuming it at such a rate that it cannot regenerate fast enough. They form a colony, with a massive horde constantly biting and gnawing at the remains to keep it dead.

The Tarrasque, defeated, for 100,000 gold. By rats.

[Elderand]

It doesn't work.

Damage reduction reduce nonlethal damage just as well as lethal damage, rats can only deal 1 damage, the tarrasque has dr 15/epic. Ergo the rats can never hurt the tarrasque.

[Pronounceable]

Something has gone very wrong with the setting where one billion rats are available to be bought. DM needs to turn in his screen and dice at that point.

[RazorChain]

You do realize that rats eat on average 10-30 grams of food each day which means you need on average 20.000 tons of food each day to feed them....else they'll probably eat you....good luck with that.

[Jormengand]

Technically I don't think there's anything stopping rats getting their 1 SP/day for untrained labour (or possibly even training profession) meaning it would be relatively trivial to have a self-funded rat empire by RAW.

[khadgar567]

Technically I don't think there's anything stopping rats getting their 1 SP/day for untrained labour (or possibly even training profession) meaning it would be relatively trivial to have a self-funded rat empire by RAW.
lol that made me smile if you can train that much rat to perform simple cantrip you can destroy a nation easyly.

[somethingrandom]

I could be wrong but I believe that quantity of rats would use the swarm rules if I am reading the rules correctly that quantity of rats would be enough for 3333333 swarms of rats with 100 rats left over but that would not help the rats deal damage as they would then be dealing 1d6 damage which is still not enough to get past the Tarrasque's damage reduction

[Celestia]

It doesn't work.

Damage reduction reduce nonlethal damage just as well as lethal damage, rats can only deal 1 damage, the tarrasque has dr 15/epic. Ergo the rats can never hurt the tarrasque.
That's why you play a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration. Give those one billion rats 1d6 fire damage each. DR does not block energy damage. Plus, then you're basically the Pied Piper.

[Hamste]

That's why you play a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration. Give those one billion rats 1d6 fire damage each. DR does not block energy damage. Plus, then you're basically the Pied Piper.

Arguably that doesn't work. Dragonfire gives bonus damage based off how much of a morale bonus to attack that the rats would normally get from inspire courage. That number is zero as rats are vermin and therefore immune to all morale effects. I say arguably as I'm sure there is a way to interpret it otherwise.

[Celestia]

Arguably that doesn't work. Dragonfire gives bonus damage based off how much of a morale bonus to attack that the rats would normally get from inspire courage. That number is zero as rats are vermin and therefore immune to all morale effects. I say arguably as I'm sure there is a way to interpret it otherwise.
Dragonfire Inspiration is not a morale bonus to damage. It is simply a bonus to damage. So, by default, it is untyped. And Bardic Music is not inherently mind-affecting, either. There's nothing to say this won't work. The wording on the feat does not say that targets get extra damage based on the moralr bonus they would have otherwise received. It says that targets get extra damage based on the morale bonus you would have otherwise given. You're still giving a morale bonus even if your target can't receive it. Therefore, you can give extra damage with Dragonfire Inspiration.

Edit: Also, rats are animals, not vermin. They're not immune to morale bonuses, anyways. Lol :smalltongue:

[TheCountAlucard]

Still doesn't help, since the tarrasque is immune to fire. :smalltongue:

[Celestia]

Still doesn't help, since the tarrasque is immune to fire. :smalltongue:
Then you have blue dragon heritage and hit it with electricity, instead.

[Inevitability]

You do realize that rats eat on average 10-30 grams of food each day which means you need on average 20.000 tons of food each day to feed them....else they'll probably eat you....good luck with that.

Why do you think the player in question wants to bring down the tarrasque? :smalltongue:

[BWR]

That's why you play a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration. Give those one billion rats 1d6 fire damage each. DR does not block energy damage. Plus, then you're basically the Pied Piper.

Pathfinder, not 3.5.

[Celestia]

Pathfinder, not 3.5.
There are people who play Pathfinder without importing 3.5 material? Wierd.

[CharonsHelper]

There are people who play Pathfinder without importing 3.5 material? Wierd.

It makes the game's balance even wackier. (Pathfinder alone is pretty good until level 9ish)

@OP - you wouldn't need nearly that many trained rats to use Aid Another on grapple checks to pin the Tarrasque. Sure - they can't kill it themselves, but they can hold it indefinitely and a level 1 mook with a Greataxe can hit it with coup-de-grace over and over to get a few points past its DR (it'll roll 1 on that Fort check eventually).

It still wouldn't KILL it, but it'd put it down.

[Mutazoia]

lol that made me smile if you can train that much rat to perform simple cantrip you can destroy a nation easyly.

Somebody hasn't watched "Wanted" lately.....

[Flickerdart]

Does Pathfinder have the same ridiculous rules for hiveminds that 3.5 does?

[LibraryOgre]

Technically I don't think there's anything stopping rats getting their 1 SP/day for untrained labour (or possibly even training profession) meaning it would be relatively trivial to have a self-funded rat empire by RAW.


"Ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball."

[Grim Portent]

I could be wrong but I believe that quantity of rats would use the swarm rules if I am reading the rules correctly that quantity of rats would be enough for 3333333 swarms of rats with 100 rats left over but that would not help the rats deal damage as they would then be dealing 1d6 damage which is still not enough to get past the Tarrasque's damage reduction


It makes the game's balance even wackier. (Pathfinder alone is pretty good until level 9ish)

@OP - you wouldn't need nearly that many trained rats to use Aid Another on grapple checks to pin the Tarrasque. Sure - they can't kill it themselves, but they can hold it indefinitely and a level 1 mook with a Greataxe can hit it with coup-de-grace over and over to get a few points past its DR (it'll roll 1 on that Fort check eventually).

It still wouldn't KILL it, but it'd put it down.

So what is the cumulative grapple modifier of 3333333 rat swarms? :smalltongue:

EDIT: Decided to take a stab at it myself.

A rat/rat swarm has a -2 for Tiny size, a +2 on it's CMB from it's dex bonus, and the swarm has +2 for BAB, for a net of +2 on the first swarm. Assuming a rat swarm army, about 60% should be making their aid another check, which I think works out at +3999998 to the grapple check, or 4000000 before rolling any dice. Assuming I've done that right this means the Tarrasque is pretty easily pinned by a billion rats. The rats also have just 1 point less initiative bonus than the Tarrasque does, so pretty good odds of going first.

[Celestia]

So what is the cumulative grapple modifier of 3333333 rat swarms? :smalltongue:
Nothing because swarms can't grapple.

[Grim Portent]

Nothing because swarms can't grapple.

So it has to be individual rats then to run the numbers and have it be valid?

So 999,999,999 rats, 50% pass their aid another check for an average of +499999999.5 to the rat who initiates the grapple.

EDIT: Decided to check a different thing, the Tarrasque can carry 68096 pounds by my math, 1 billion brown rats (lighter than black rats at 230 grams) weigh 507063000 pounds cumulatively, or 229999.9 metric tonnes. This wouldn't so much be a grapple as it would be smothering the poor monster under enough rats to crush a building.

EDIT2: Also, why can't swarms grapple? People can totally get pinned down by large groups of small animals in real life and people getting dragged down by rat swarms and carried around by bug swarms is a common concept in media. Why game designers, why? :smallconfused:

[TheCountAlucard]

"Ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball."There are actually multitudes of rules preventing a dog from playing basketball. The plot of Air Bud hinges on the referee not knowing anything, and nobody calling him on it. In fact, are we even sure that guy's a referee?

Player age restrictions alone should've kept the dog off the court (How old was the dog? Maybe two, three years? Nobody would match up a three-year-old against adolescent players!), let alone consent laws, school attendance and GPA (the dog, you'll note, was not even enrolled in the school), the dog's inability to follow the rules (he can't dribble the ball without traveling, and no less than twice when making free throws, he jumps across the free throw line before the ball hits the basket, which would mean a disqualification)… heck, you foul him, that's literally animal abuse.

[Calthropstu]

That's why you play a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration. Give those one billion rats 1d6 fire damage each. DR does not block energy damage. Plus, then you're basically the Pied Piper.

Tarrasque has fire resistance

[TheFamilarRaven]

As funny as it is to imagine 1 billion rats mothering the Tarrasque. No. 1 billion rats could not kill the Tarrasque. They wouldn't deal enough damage to by-pass DR and Regeneration. Even if they did, RAW clearly states the Tarrasque can't die.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As funny as it is to imagine 1 billion rats mothering the Tarrasque <snip>I've heard of being raised by wolves, but being raised by rats?

Would it be the tarratsque?

[Crake]

So it has to be individual rats then to run the numbers and have it be valid?

So 999,999,999 rats, 50% pass their aid another check for an average of +499999999.5 to the rat who initiates the grapple.

EDIT: Decided to check a different thing, the Tarrasque can carry 68096 pounds by my math, 1 billion brown rats (lighter than black rats at 230 grams) weigh 507063000 pounds cumulatively, or 229999.9 metric tonnes. This wouldn't so much be a grapple as it would be smothering the poor monster under enough rats to crush a building.

EDIT2: Also, why can't swarms grapple? People can totally get pinned down by large groups of small animals in real life and people getting dragged down by rat swarms and carried around by bug swarms is a common concept in media. Why game designers, why? :smallconfused:

Creatures can't grapple enemies more than 2 size categories larger than themselves, so the same reason a medium creature wouldn't be able to grapple a tarrasque: it's too big.

Also, remember sqwarms fill up a space, so there's a limit on how many swarms could actually hit the tarrasque at once. 1d6 damage, can't overcome it's DR, though add on some elemental damage and ok. Now the question is: can they overcome it's regeneration 40 before the next turn?. And of course, all the while, with great cleave, the tarrasque is hitting literally all the rats within reach. And since it's claws, bite and tail do bludgeoning damage, the swarms are taking full damage, and it's flat bonus to damage is +15, it will one hit any swarm it doesn't roll a 1 against.

As a colossal creature, it can have at most roughly 9 swarms occupying it's sqaure (since as far as I can tell, pathfinder swarms lack the ability to shape their squares like they could in 3.5). To be able to overcome the tarrasque's regen 40, they would need to each deal over 4.5ish damage per turn, and be able to reduce it to 0 before they're all wiped out. 2d6 elemental damage should roughly suffice there.

So the question becomes how many rat swarms does the tarrasque kill per turn, and how much damage to the rats need to be able to do to drop it to 0 before there are no rats left?

The answer is: It's impossible. 60ft reach with the tail slap vs 15ft movement of a rat swarm means the tarrasque can cleave them all before they even get into melee.

[TheFamilarRaven]

I've heard of being raised by wolves, but being raised by rats?

Would it be the tarratsque?

This is what I get for not double checking my posts :smallbiggrin:

Well played. This is too good for me to fix my earlier error :smalltongue:

[SirNibbles]

You won't even need 1 billion rats.

Wu Jen 13/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Archmage 2

Cast Giant size with Arcane Reach + Enlarge Spell + Split Ray + Lens of Ray Widening

You can enlarge rats in a 14,450 sq ft. area to Colossal size, giving them +32 Str and +12 Con. I'd say 200 rats would easily be enough to take down the Tarrasque (though 43,000 rats could fit in that area before you enlarge them).

I'm sure there are other (better) ways of buffing your rat army. I just like the idea of big rats or, if you prefer, rodents of unusual size.

(I'm assuming you allow 3.5 in your PF games).

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the spell being used is Giant Size. Enlarge Spell is the metamagic.

[Mordaedil]

Yeah, I'm sure "Enlarge Person" works fine on rats...

[TheCountAlucard]

Tarrasque has fire resistanceOne, no, it has fire immunity. Two, I mentioned that immunity hours before your post.

[SirNibbles]

Yeah, I'm sure "Enlarge Person" works fine on rats...

I forgot to mention it was Giant Size, hence the Wu Jen levels.

[Mordaedil]

That makes more sense.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Except those rats still only hit on a natural 20, and now only about 8 or less can attack , eliminating the numbers advantage. Their average damage by-passes DR sure, but the hits would be rare enough that the Tarrasque would probably heal it all back. And as rats are animals in Pathfinder, they're affected by the Tarrasque's frightful presence.

So now you have a bunch of colossal, frightened rats stampeding away from the Tarrasque. This is glorious :smallbiggrin:

[ShurikVch]

Technically I don't think there's anything stopping rats getting their 1 SP/day for untrained labour (or possibly even training profession) meaning it would be relatively trivial to have a self-funded rat empire by RAW.Rise of the Rat King! :smallbiggrin:


Even if they did, RAW clearly states the Tarrasque can't die.Incorrect: T (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/spawn-of-destruction/tarrasque), actually, can die - it just immune to lethal damage and can survive SoDs
On the other hand, Suffocation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Suffocation) is a Constitution check which doesn't allow any saves in case of failure
How many Rats we will need to block T's windpipe(s)?

[TheFamilarRaven]

Incorrect: T (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/spawn-of-destruction/tarrasque), actually, can die - it just immune to lethal damage and can survive SoDs
On the other hand, Suffocation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Suffocation) is a Constitution check which doesn't allow any saves in case of failure
How many Rats we will need to block T's windpipe(s)?

The logical part of me says "I'm sure regeneration would count"... but the pedantic rules-lawyer in me says "Aha! Yes! finally!"

[Psyren]

Does Pathfinder have the same ridiculous rules for hiveminds that 3.5 does?

Technically, 3.5 doesn't have those rules either.


There are people who play Pathfinder without importing 3.5 material? Wierd.

"Weird," says the girl trying to engineer a swarm of electrified rats :smalltongue:


Rise of the Rat King! :smallbiggrin:

Incorrect: T (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/spawn-of-destruction/tarrasque), actually, can die - it just immune to lethal damage and can survive SoDs
On the other hand, Suffocation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Suffocation) is a Constitution check which doesn't allow any saves in case of failure
How many Rats we will need to block T's windpipe(s)?

RAW is a double-edged sword though - there are no rules for blocking windpipes after all.

[ShurikVch]

RAW is a double-edged sword though - there are no rules for blocking windpipes after all.OK!
Drowning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Drowning):
It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.Drowning in Rats!..

[icefractal]

Unless it's a billion incorporeal rats, you mainly have problems getting the rat army to it. There's only 28 squares at ground level, not nearly enough.

If you can get the rats flying, it's 232, which is a lot better. Still not enough to win by damage, but it might be enough for an Aid Another + Pin victory ... if you can figure out a way around the size restriction for Grapple, that is.

Attrition would usually be a factor, but not with that regeneration. Interestingly, because of the huge number of rats, the Tarrasque's ability to make AoOs means very little - there will always be more rats to take the place of the ones it kills on the way in.

Re: Wu Jen strategy - Well yes, but we already knew a 19th level caster could kill the Tarrasque. :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

Dragonfire Inspiration is not a morale bonus to damage. It is simply a bonus to damage. So, by default, it is untyped. And Bardic Music is not inherently mind-affecting, either. There's nothing to say this won't work. The wording on the feat does not say that targets get extra damage based on the moralr bonus they would have otherwise received. It says that targets get extra damage based on the morale bonus you would have otherwise given. You're still giving a morale bonus even if your target can't receive it. Therefore, you can give extra damage with Dragonfire Inspiration.

Edit: Also, rats are animals, not vermin. They're not immune to morale bonuses, anyways. Lol :smalltongue:
It is Bonus Damage. If you don't do damage in the first place, you can't add bonus damage.

[Psyren]

OK!
Drowning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Drowning):Drowning in Rats!..

Are rats "substances?"

[Jay R]

The real answer is that is would be impossible to attack a tarrasque (or any other single creature) with one billion rats.

Today, in your home town, you can probably buy cans of soup at a price of $1 - 2 or so.

Does that mean that you can buy one billion cans of soup for 1-2 billion dollars? No, because there aren't a billion cans of soup for sale in any single town in the world.

Similarly, no matter what price rats are, no merchant has over 200,000 tons (or tonnes) of rats to sell (using Grim Portent's figures).

Also, assuming a rat takes up 12 square inches (and 3 inches x 4 inches would be pretty small for a rat), they would take up 3 square miles. It's a long time until most of them can even reach the tarrasque.

Also how did you give them orders? Are they in range of your voice or spell? Even if you're in the center of a circle of them, roughly 3/4 of them are a half mile away or more.

I don't even want to consider the notion of a rat drive - the obvious requirement for the PC to drive his three square miles of rat herd to the tarrasque.

The scenario is impossible.

[Celestia]

The scenario is impossible.
I think you're missing the point. :smalltongue:

[Hamste]

Dragonfire Inspiration is not a morale bonus to damage. It is simply a bonus to damage. So, by default, it is untyped. And Bardic Music is not inherently mind-affecting, either. There's nothing to say this won't work. The wording on the feat does not say that targets get extra damage based on the moralr bonus they would have otherwise received. It says that targets get extra damage based on the morale bonus you would have otherwise given. You're still giving a morale bonus even if your target can't receive it. Therefore, you can give extra damage with Dragonfire Inspiration.

Edit: Also, rats are animals, not vermin. They're not immune to morale bonuses, anyways. Lol :smalltongue:

I might be a bit biased against rats assuming they are vermin and all :smalltongue:

Though onto the morale thing, dragonfire inspiration uses

"he deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage with his weapons for every point of morale bonus that your inspire courage ability would normally add to the attack roll."

For a mindless creature (which rats are not but continuing this line anyways) they would normally add 0 to the attack roll as they get no morale bonus to their attack roll (dragonfire optimization seems to agree with this as circumstantial increases from things like horns are used to boost it). So while rats will work for buffing purposes beetles should not.

[Jormengand]

Are rats "substances?"

They're certainly made of them.

But I'm glad this thread has turned from metaphorically to literally trying to drown it in rats.

[Barstro]

The scenario is impossible.
Since the Tarrasque is a figment of someone's imagination, of course it's impossible.


Today, in your home town, you can probably buy cans of soup at a price of $1 - 2 or so.

Does that mean that you can buy one billion cans of soup for 1-2 billion dollars? No, because there aren't a billion cans of soup for sale in any single town in the world.
Now you are mixing real world logic with in-game RAW. Please stop dividing by zero.

NOW, the rules probably do state somewhere just what a person is able to purchase in a town of a given size. But, in a world of spellcasters, people are not limited to single towns and might not even need to depend on purchasing. I'm sure someone can create a dimension on an altered timeline, breed a bunch of rats, and then teleport/gate/whatever to the Tarrasque.

The rules also dictate if the rats are a swarm or a group of individuals. Either way, there remains the possibility of "drowning in rats" as mentioned. I think it would more likely be suffocation.

The "rat drive" isn't really dependent on the PC herding rats. There could easily be a spell or an item that draws all these pre-bred rats to the Tarrasque and, animals being animals, the rats simply fight. After all, you get that many rats in a confined area (and three square miles is confined when you have that many) tensions will start to flare.

Aside from many of the other wonderful scientific RAW observations people have made, my concern is how these creatures do not turn on each other while this is going on.

[Rijan_Sai]

So while rats will work for buffing purposes beetles should not.

Why does my mind want to insert a bit of irony into that?
https://cfmedia.deadline.com/2014/06/the-beatles-1__140613232022.jpg

[Strigon]

Aside from many of the other wonderful scientific RAW observations people have made, my concern is how these creatures do not turn on each other while this is going on.

If we're talking about rats magically bred on a demiplane, couldn't you have a bunch of resetting traps of Awaken on the demiplane, making them intelligent and thus capable of cooperation?

And if we're really, really stretching things, couldn't you have them compete with one another for years, so you have swarms of Awakened rats with class levels?

[Hamste]

Why does my mind want to insert a bit of irony into that?
https://cfmedia.deadline.com/2014/06/the-beatles-1__140613232022.jpg

Aw man, the Beatles buffing beetles biting a big beast would have been great.

[Barstro]

If we're talking about rats magically bred on a demiplane, couldn't you have a bunch of resetting traps of Awaken on the demiplane, making them intelligent and thus capable of cooperation?

And if we're really, really stretching things, couldn't you have them compete with one another for years, so you have swarms of Awakened rats with class levels?

Now you are stretching things too far. :smalltongue:

I'm going off of the OP's implied suggestion of "normal" rats. But I do think some sort of spell/etc. could be in place to ensure that they attack the Tarrasque exclusively.

[Inevitability]

Are rats "substances?"

The only reason I can think off why they shouldn't be is their non-object-ness, and if that's the issue one can just command the rats to bite each other to death, thereby generating a suffocating substance while technically still letting the rats be the ones to kill the tarrasque.

[Grim Portent]

Can't Tiny creatures occupy the same space as larger ones and each other, or is that just swarms?

We could also try to work out how much damage the rats would inflict if put into a big metal box and dropped on the T from above. Pretty sure a billion rats, probably dead by this point from suffocation and/or crushing, in a big adamantium box dropped from above would knock the Tarrasque out for a bit.

Or we could enlarge one rat with magic until it can grapple the T and have the rest contribute aid another checks. Sort of like a cross between Gulliver's Travels and a Kaiju fight. :smallbiggrin:

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think swarms can overlap, they just deal their swarm damage to the other swarms in their space. If you get a thousand rat swarms moving in one space, they all kill eachother, but also the other creatures in that space. Of course, they're still not beating DR or regeneration, so basic rats or rat swarms cannot kill the tarrasque.

It's possible (even probably, I'd say) that there is a Path of War maneuver to overcome DR, but it's hard to teach it to rat swarms. Some abilities allow the sharing of feats with allies, which could grant said maneuver to every rat (swarm). If you allow one super-rat to lead the pack, one billion rats can be turned into a frightful tarrasque-mauling conglomerate.

[denthor]

"Ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball."

Do you have young kids? Have you watched Paw Patrol? Puppies play basketball and win.

[Florian]

Alright, so I was talking to a friend of mine over Skype, and he was looking through the pathfinder SRD. It has info for buying animals and he noticed that rats, were very cheap. In fact, 100,000 gold could get you a billion rats. That got me thinking. Could a pathfinder Tarrasque be killed by that many rats?

Here's what I'm thinking. A Tarrasque has greater cleave, but is bound to eventually roll a 1. It wins initiative, but eventually, it's turn will end. And then the rats start attacking. They can only deal nonlethal damage because of damage reduction, but once the Tarrasque becomes unconscious, the rats start dealing lethal damage. Eventually they begin consuming it at such a rate that it cannot regenerate fast enough. They form a colony, with a massive horde constantly biting and gnawing at the remains to keep it dead.

The Tarrasque, defeated, for 100,000 gold. By rats.

It all depends on what rules-level we talk about.
PF knows three "zoom levels": Individual, team, army. (See Ultimate Campaign for this).

On both, individual and team level, your rats will not be able to beat the Terrasque.

Talking army and mass combat rules, tho, it might actually play out in favor of your rats.

[Calthropstu]

dunno how the double post happened.

[Calthropstu]

Except those rats still only hit on a natural 20, and now only about 8 or less can attack , eliminating the numbers advantage. Their average damage by-passes DR sure, but the hits would be rare enough that the Tarrasque would probably heal it all back. And as rats are animals in Pathfinder, they're affected by the Tarrasque's frightful presence.

So now you have a bunch of colossal, frightened rats stampeding away from the Tarrasque. This is glorious :smallbiggrin:
This just makes me laugh and imagine a Tarrasque chasing gigantic rats through a city.

Now you are stretching things too far. :smalltongue:

I'm going off of the OP's implied suggestion of "normal" rats. But I do think some sort of spell/etc. could be in place to ensure that they attack the Tarrasque exclusively.

Undead rats would be immune to the fear, and could be controlled in such a manner.

[killem2]

How do you get them past the frightful presence? That is almost sure to stop anything from happening. I would like to see the average fort roll.

[Barbarian Horde]

I thought the rules for damage was even with DR the minimum damage was 1 no matter what. Who is to say we can't get a billion rats. Anything from a wish to a wizard creating a entire plane that can sustain that population I think could work.

[icefractal]

Without DR, it's minimum 1, but DR can reduce it to zero.

[Calthropstu]

I thought the rules for damage was even with DR the minimum damage was 1 no matter what. Who is to say we can't get a billion rats. Anything from a wish to a wizard creating a entire plane that can sustain that population I think could work.

Damage reduction ignores damage. Any damage insufficient to bypass it is ignored, so no... 1 nonlethal does not happen. The rule you are referring to is when modifiers reduce damage to less than 1, it is changed to 1 nonlethal. Damage reduction is not reducing damage or applying negative modifiers, it is ignoring it.

[Sayt]

There are people who play Pathfinder without importing 3.5 material? Wierd.

Sure, aside from people playing Pathfinder's Organized play, there are the people who started within the last decade in which 3.5's non-core materisl haven't been widely sold or legally available online.

[Barbarian Horde]

You could use cyst from the mother cyst for mind control. Just have them explode to spread the infection

[Calthropstu]

Sure, aside from people playing Pathfinder's Organized play, there are the people who started within the last decade in which 3.5's non-core materisl haven't been widely sold or legally available online.

Not to mention many, like myself, actually PREFER Pathfinder over 3.5, and spurn 3.5 rules completely in favor of pathfinder's.

[unseenmage]

So, we have a high level PF game set in space and we had to agree not to use Big T or Cthulhu since theyre both basically unkillable.

I did build a Robot Mogaru and we used our Mythic Bard to abduct the real PF Godzilla and we use it for orbital bombardment after putting a wondrous magic item on ot that turns any fall from any height into a super hero landing.

I will be passing the idea of drowning Big T in rats along to our GM for his use in combating us. (Our villain is the Dominion of Black and I'm betting they can easily manufacture/procure enough tiny creatures to drown/crush a kaiju.)


More on topic, what about just crushing Big T with the weight/mass of the rats? What's Big T's carrying capacity? Could we get him to "carry" the rats somehow?

What if we used Teleportation Circles or Ring Gates or something to pour the rats on him en masse? Could we then use the Cave-Ins and Collapse rules to crush Big T?

[Celestia]

... Big T ... basically unkillable.
That is laughably untrue. The Tarrasque is only difficult if you try to kill it with HP damage. Otherwise, it is actually quite easy. An eighth level cleric can solo Big T with little trouble.

[mistermysterio]

That is laughably untrue. The Tarrasque is only difficult if you try to kill it with HP damage. Otherwise, it is actually quite easy. An eighth level cleric can solo Big T with little trouble.

Howso? Tarrasque is immune to ability damage and energy drain? Level 8 cleric would be killed in a single round...?

[Celestia]

Howso? Tarrasque is immune to ability damage and energy drain? Level 8 cleric would be killed in a single round...?
How to Kill the Tarrasque in Six Easy Steps:
Step 1: Be an eighth level cleric of a non-good alignment.
Step 2: Find an Allip.
Step 3: Rebuke Undead to command said Allip.
Step 4: Find the Tarrasque.
Step 5: Stand back an laugh while the Allip effortlessly knocks the Tarrasque unconscious.
Step 6: Use a Ring of the Three Wishes to kill the Tarrasque.

[mistermysterio]

Step 5: Stand back an laugh while the Allip effortlessly knocks the Tarrasque unconscious.


How does the allip "effortlessly" knock the tarrasque unconscious? Am I missing something? If the tarrasque badly botches a will save, it might be fascinated for a bit... but it is immune to touch of insanity and madness (not that it would target the allip with a thought detection, mind control, or telepathic effect).

[Inevitability]

The confusion here is arising from the fact that one person is using the 3.5 stats of allips (in which they deal wisdom drain) whereas the other is using Pathfinder stats (which has them do wisdom damage). Because the Tarrasque is immune to ability damage, regardless of version, only in 3.5 can it be brought down by an allip.

[Celestia]

The confusion here is arising from the fact that one person is using the 3.5 stats of allips (in which they deal wisdom drain) whereas the other is using Pathfinder stats (which has them do wisdom damage). Because the Tarrasque is immune to ability damage, regardless of version, only in 3.5 can it be brought down by an allip.
Well, at least that's something to be said for Pathfinder. Now, perhaps, allips can actually be fought at the level for which they were intended? Maybe? :smalltongue:

[unseenmage]

That is laughably untrue. The Tarrasque is only difficult if you try to kill it with HP damage. Otherwise, it is actually quite easy. An eighth level cleric can solo Big T with little trouble.

Yeah the PF Terrasque had the volume turned up to 11.
Cthulhu is sill worse though as it fights without ever actually showing up.

[Inevitability]

Well, at least that's something to be said for Pathfinder. Now, perhaps, allips can actually be fought at the level for which they were intended? Maybe? :smalltongue:

Still incorporeal, still projecting an area of save-or-lose. Somehow, I doubt it.

[Sayt]

Still incorporeal, still projecting an area of save-or-lose. Somehow, I doubt it.

Okay, The Allip has a fascinate aura, which Big T passes on a 3. Oh, and is immune too. Howsabout you actually familiarise yourself with the creature being discussed? :)


The allip and Big T are actually completely immune to each other im PF. Whoops, my bad.

[Flickerdart]

Okay, The Allip has a fascinate aura, which Big T passes on a 3. Oh, and is immune too. Howsabout you actually familiarise yourself with the creature being discussed? :)

The text Dire_Stirge quoted clearly says Now, perhaps, allips can actually be fought at the level for which they were intended? and makes no mention of the Tarrasque.

[Sayt]

The text Dire_Stirge quoted clearly says Now, perhaps, allips can actually be fought at the level for which they were intended? and makes no mention of the Tarrasque.

Yeah, true, my bad.

[Calthropstu]

How to Kill the Tarrasque in Six Easy Steps:
Step 1: Be an eighth level cleric of a non-good alignment.
Step 2: Find an Allip.
Step 3: Rebuke Undead to command said Allip.
Step 4: Find the Tarrasque.
Step 5: Stand back an laugh while the Allip effortlessly knocks the Tarrasque unconscious.
Step 6: Use a Ring of the Three Wishes to kill the Tarrasque.

1: you are using 3.5 stats for both allip AND the tarrasque. Pathfinder has changed the allip as has already been previously noted, but they removed the "wish" kill effect from the Tarrasque. The Tarrasque is literally unkillable.

2: The Tarrasque is immune to all mind affecting, so the allip's aura can't even affect it. In short, the tarrasque ignore the allip and goes right for the cleric commanding it. Eaten cleric.

3: "rebuke Undead" doesn't happen in Pathfinder, controlling undead requires spells and/or feats in order to use turn undead in this way.

[Grim Portent]

More on topic, what about just crushing Big T with the weight/mass of the rats? What's Big T's carrying capacity? Could we get him to "carry" the rats somehow?

What if we used Teleportation Circles or Ring Gates or something to pour the rats on him en masse? Could we then use the Cave-Ins and Collapse rules to crush Big T?


Decided to check a different thing, the Tarrasque can carry 68096 pounds by my math, 1 billion brown rats (lighter than black rats at 230 grams) weigh 507063000 pounds cumulatively, or 229999.9 metric tonnes. This wouldn't so much be a grapple as it would be smothering the poor monster under enough rats to crush a building.

Did the math on his carrying capacity earlier. It's waaaay less than the weight of 1 billion rats.

My current personal preference would be to drop a giant adamantium (or that unbreakable magic material used in decanter of endless water gimmicks) box filled with the rats on top of him, though by that point you might as well just use sand or something which you can pack into a box easier. Not sure if it would do any real damage to it given the way falling object damage works in PF, but it would at the very least be funny. Especially if the box is shaped like a piano, a safe or an anvil.

At the very least it should be enough to pin the Tarrasque, as well as make a crater in the ground depending on it's hardness value and how you rule hp and depth to work for the planet's crust.

[erasedisknow]

The Tarrasque can still win. It just needs to eat them. Big T's mouth is big enough to fit them.