Pragmatic Ramifications of 5e Spells in High Fantasy

[illequidam]

forgive me if this has already been explored - I've heard it has been for 3.5e magic!

in a high fantasy world, where the uses of all the spell lists have been explored, what are some of the uses of RAW 5e magic that become so useful that they replace common machines or social structures?

for instance, slavery, other than being an insult to sentient life, might be more expensive than asking your local wizards to cast unseen servant over and over again until a job gets done (even if you don't do it as a ritual). zone of truth streamlines court systems (although RAW you can misdirect). farming is surely harder work than create food and water, which creates a whopping 45lbs of food and 30gal of water.

I need help thinking of these things for a high level intrigue campaign I'm thinking up.

cheers,
Pablo

edit: wow great points, everyone. I realize "high fantasy" is ambiguous, so for this world suppose magic users are incredibly common. it's an arcane society. magical training, regardless of class, requires time and discipline but not cash. the masses (let's say about 3/4 of society) know cantrips and maybe a few tier 1 spells. the remaining quarter knows tier 2 or 3 spells, with a rare handful knowing tier 4 spells. this latter group is almost exclusively concerned with preventing the region from, say, collapsing into the fire plane. they're rarely around. there's obviously no one way this is going to go, but I'm liking the ideas so far.

[jaappleton]

So you're asking for... When magic replaces life?

In an odd way, you're asking for the fantasy equivalent of "I got fired and replaced with a robot on the assembly line"?

I'm willing to answer and contribute, but I just want to make sure I have the correct interpretation of your question.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One important question: how common is magical training? Is it something that literally anyone can be trained to do (at least for things like Wizards or Clerics), or is it rarer? Because you'll get very different answers if one in ten people can cast spells than if it's one in a thousand.

[RickAllison]

Fabricate ensures that low-volume, high-labor products like gem-cutting, embroidery, and lace would be dominated by wizards with the appropriate proficiencies. Supposing the problems are flaws rather than impurities, a Fabricate gemcutter can take the reject pile of diamonds and create specimens perfect to the desired cut and carat. A dressmaker can take 10 minutes before a major ball and Fabricate dresses onto noblewomen to achieve cuts and other dress styles that are impossible because the wizard can assemble it on the woman in the time it takes to get the measurements for the traditional techniques.

[LudicSavant]

farming is surely harder work than create food and water, which creates a whopping 45lbs of food and 30gal of water.

Alright, let's tackle this one to start. A few things occur.

First, we don't really know just how hard it is to Create Food and Water magically. All sorts of factors could make becoming a magician exceedingly difficult or limited, not the least of which being the fact that it is almost certainly a more highly skilled occupation than subsistence farming. This is especially true given that this is a 3rd level spell, meaning that characters who can cast it are (according to the Tiers of Play description) important and face threats to entire cities or kingdoms.

Second, the food is of limited quality. It's bland, and also spoils after only 24 hours. Normal food can (with the help of techniques like smoking, salting, fermenting, drying, candying, and so forth) keep for seasons or years. If mages are rare specialists, you would have to have an incredibly efficient food distribution network to avoid massive loss of food stores.

Third, just how far does 45 pounds of food go, really? Well, a quick google search says that the average American eats about 5.5 pounds of food a day, which means about 8 people per spell slot. The book says 15 people, though, so we'll go with that. Either way, Create Food and Water is a third level cleric spell. If this is going to feed everyone at 15 people/day, you'd need one 5th level cleric per 30 people (if they are spending all of their 3rd level spell slots on this), plus the means to distribute it. Given that 5th level clerics are expected to be city or kingdom level characters and that even an ancient city has tens or even hundreds of thousands of people, this seems like an unlikely candidate for solving world hunger.

[comk59]

Another issue is that NPCs aren't built like PCs, so we don't have any way of knowing just what spells and how many spells per day they can cast.

[JeenLeen]

The 5e PHB strongly implies, if not out states, that player classes are rare. I recall in detail how the description of Cleric spells out that most clergy are not Clerics (and indeed not all Clerics need be trained clergy in the rites and rituals of a religion, IIRC.) Something similar was said about Bards, verses traveling minstrels or storytellers. Just as your average soldier or thug is not a Fighter. I assume that, similarly, arcane casters are rare; probably most 'wise men' working for a kingdom are just scholars with no spellcasting, though they may indeed be led by a wizard or a handful of wizards.

Now, if we assume that spellcasting is common enough, then things can get wonky.
However, there are caveats like some Create Food and Water has limitations (as noted above), and I'm sure some folk would think hand-made stuff is better than magically-crafted.

I think one of the reasons it 'works' for 3.5 is because the rules for magical traps could be exploited to built auto-resetting traps of things like Create Food and Water, thereby making an essentially infinite amount of food after a minimal investment. (Caster makes trap, then have peasants step on it to create food.)

[RickAllison]

Another issue is that NPCs aren't built like PCs, so we don't have any way of knowing just what spells and how many spells per day they can cast.

Not really true on how many spells they can cast. Barring Innate Spellcasting (which is race-specific), Spellcasting works by assigning them the casting abilities of an Xth-level Y class. The Spellcasting trait is always associated with the generic spellcasting level consistent with the chart in the PHB (so if you know what level of spellcaster it is, you know its spell slots), and IIRC its spells are also associated with a class. They always seem to mention having a class's spells prepared. And here is a quote from the DMG:


A monster with the Spellcasting class feature has a
spellcaster level and spell slots, which it uses to cast
its spells of 1st level and higher (as explained in the
Player's Handbook). The spellcaster level is also used
for any cantrips included in the feature.
The monster has a list of spells known or prepared
from a particular class. The list might also include
spells from a feature in that class, such as the Divine
Domain feature of the cleric or the Druid Circle feature
of the druid.
A monster can cast a spell from its list at a higher level
if it has the spell slot to do so. For example, a drow mage
with the 3rd-level lightning bolt spell can cast it as a
5th-level spell by using one of its 5th-level spell slots.
You can change the spells that a monster knows or
has prepared, replacing any spell on a monster's spell
list with a different spell of the same level and from
the same class list. If you do so, you might cause the
monster to be a greater or lesser threat than suggested
by its challenge rating.

[LudicSavant]

Note that while Create Food and Water only makes 45 pounds of food per third level spell slot, Purify Food and Drink (only 1st level) can cover vastly more. Moreover, it's a first level spell (not third) and a ritual, which means you can cast it all bloody day. A level 1 wizard can spend 8 hours casting Purify Food and Drink and purify over 25,000 cubic feet of food.

[raygun goth]

A cubic foot of wheat is approximately 45-48 pounds, less if it's cracked. If purify is on the table, then wheat is probably divided into portions - one group to be mashed for purify (I bet there's a one-cubic-foot bucket and an apple-press like device designed to crush wheat into a neat cubic foot for spellcasting), another to be made into flour (casting purify on anything most likely makes it useless for fermentation and replanting, since it would indiscriminately eliminate even the natural flora inside wheat germ, and fermentation is like, half of our food; if purify is cast on food to preserve it regularly enough for it to be a logistics problem anyone worries about, your setting has likely never discovered cheese (any cheese), pickles, edible olives, salted ham, yogurt, butter, or, horror of horrors, alcohol - which I know seems strange, but there are lots of cultures here that never did because they either preserved food in other ways, or never had the opportunity to leave something out to rot and then need to eat it, and purify will eliminate that eventuality), and others to be made into other wheat products like beer and so on. Purified wheat is probably used as filler in other foods, the same way we use enriched food nowadays.

I would suspect that purify is used sparingly (for reasons stated above) and is simply one more tool in the food industry's arsenal. Fermentation, purification, salting, drying, grilling, and other preservation methods are used side-by-side.

One modern acre of wheat farmland can feed about 9,000 people for a day. In D&D's generally accepted "timeless" middle ages, I would suspect about half that, barring, say, teaching farmers druidic and something like druidcraft or the use of advanced fertilizers gathered or created by alchemists and adventurers.

Modern-scale mass farming was last practiced by Rome, the Chinese, and the pre-Columbian Americas. European farmers were inefficient in comparison, but they still got the job done. Most food of the lower class in D&D's assumed time period and location was pottage - cabbage, wheat, beer, a teensy bit of honey, and eggs, boiled until they were all the same brown, flavorless mash, then sun-dried and reconstituted in the field later with a bit of beer and a spoon. If it sounds familiar, it should. Pottage is where the idea of Murlynd's spoon comes from. You don't get potatoes, corn, tomatoes, or, really, anything with flavor other than "apple" and "honey" until contact with India and the Americas. That's going to be your biggest money-maker with spells - prestidigitation. Wars where thousands or millions died were fought over spices and salt and dye, some lasting centuries. You can flavor things and color things with a touch? And you say you're not interested in adventures? Here are your assassin guards, enemy nobles are going to be trying to steal or kill you.

D&D 5e's magic is vague enough that it's difficult to predict a society that uses it regularly, but I would suggest looking at 0-level spells or low-level rituals for the things that change society. It is dreadfully inefficient to rely on one or two castings of a spell to change infrastructure, and that is likely reserved for either the very wealthy or adventurers.

No one is going to want a witch-dress unless they're showing off their court mage (and put pressure on rivals). If they want to show off their wealth and taste, they'll use teams of tailors (which is another thing contact with the Americas and China brought to Europe). The very wealthy in every society are actually very poor spenders and have no concept of efficiency when it comes to leisure.

[Flickerdart]

A dressmaker can take 10 minutes before a major ball and Fabricate dresses onto noblewomen to achieve cuts and other dress styles that are impossible because the wizard can assemble it on the woman in the time it takes to get the measurements for the traditional techniques.

No matter how rare wizards are, this and other high-society applications of magic, will be relatively common. The nobility and royalty will have the necessary resources to rent a wizard regardless of price - if coin won't do, other means of influence (like favors, noble titles, or legal pressure) will be used to ensure that the powerful show off their power in front of the less powerful. If the choice is between having a wizard feed a whole town, and having a wizard change the queen's dress mid-dance, smart money is on the royals going for the latter option.

[raygun goth]

No matter how rare wizards are, this and other high-society applications of magic, will be relatively common. The nobility and royalty will have the necessary resources to rent a wizard regardless of price - if coin won't do, other means of influence (like favors, noble titles, or legal pressure) will be used to ensure that the powerful show off their power in front of the less powerful. If the choice is between having a wizard feed a whole town, and having a wizard change the queen's dress mid-dance, smart money is on the royals going for the latter option.

But we'll never be...

Anyway, I agree. As said above, the wealthy have no idea how to spend efficiently. Government systems, by their nature, are about painting pictures rather than actually coming through. It isn't their fault, it's just how a system emerges into its behavior; this is why a lot of culture is also perception-based rather than action-based.

[LudicSavant]

If you want to use a third level spell to increase food output, you should be looking at Plant Growth, not Create Food and Water.

Each 8-hour casting of Plant Growth doubles the food output of some 500 acres of land for a year.

Druidcraft and Goodberry are also more influential than Create Food and Water.

[War_lord]

I don't think it would make much difference honestly. If you read the PHB, Clerics are divine champions who, I would assume, have a higher calling then simply working in agriculture. Druids are all about the balance between man and nature, so I don't see them deliberately upsetting agricultural production in a way that would create an unnatural abundance. And Wizards are highly educated academics. Which implies that their family had enough Gold to send them to the D&D equivalent of Oxford, which would make Wizards rather rare outside of the Nobility, and nobles aren't really known for caring about some rural hamlet's crop yield.

It's not enough for magic to exist that could overtake a traditional industry, if there's only a handful of people in the kingdom with that kind of ability and they all have more important things to be doing.

[raygun goth]

Which implies that their family had enough Gold to send them to the D&D equivalent of Oxford, which would make Wizards rather rare outside of the Nobility, and nobles aren't really known for caring about some rural hamlet's crop yield.

It's not enough for magic to exist that could overtake a traditional industry, if there's only a handful of people in the kingdom with that kind of ability and they all have more important things to be doing.

Oxford has an agricultural sciences program. Druids trying to "save the wilderness" (never mind that the environmental movement and nature-as-god is a post-industrial philosophy) would want more efficient crop fields, considering that agriculture is the biggest polluting industry even today, and consumes and destroys more land than even strip mining.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Depends on caster levels, as stated.

Teleportation circles, if available, radically alter how society looks. One ninth level bard, sorcerer, or wizard can take a year to make a permanent circle in the capital, and then, at harvest time, go around to large provincial granaries and cast the circle under the storage to collect it, allowing greatly enhanced centralization / urbanization, and de-emphasizing roads. Funny enough, if this is taken to the extreme, an efficient use of this spell would actually divide territory into hexes on a iso-time map (a map drawn so some unit of distance on the map = one traveling day).

If the setting is lower-magic than that, actually, the most revolutionary implications come from 4E monks and Shape the Flowing River. Level three characters creating 3 small igloos per hour is kinda a big deal.

[DragonSorcererX]

Teleportation circles, if available, radically alter how society looks. One ninth level bard, sorcerer, or wizard can take a year to make a permanent circle in the capital, and then, at harvest time, go around to large provincial granaries and cast the circle under the storage to collect it, allowing greatly enhanced centralization / urbanization, and de-emphasizing roads. Funny enough, if this is taken to the extreme, an efficient use of this spell would actually divide territory into hexes on a iso-time map (a map drawn so some unit of distance on the map = one traveling day).

Limit the range of the Teleportation Circles to Crystal Sphere only, mix in some Spelljamming, and you have Magical Star Trek.

[Hrugner]

Unfortunately, magically processed food has been strongly linked to autism. Purify food and drink removes blah blah something something gut bacteria causing antisocial behavior and social avoidance. My kid was totally fine before he started having magically processed food, we took him off of it and now he's all better (he's not all better). Using fabricate to turn fields of wheat into flour leaves an arcane residue on the flour that is absorbed by your child making them more golem like. Same thing with curing spells, they make it look like your wound is all healed up, but I think an accident with a dispel magic would probably unravel the whole thing, don't you think it's best to let your kids heal on their own rather than run the risk of having every scrape reappear if magic stops working for them. Magic use on pregnant women is also too untested and should be avoided at all costs.

Man, magic deniers would be super tedious in D&D, I need to throw some into my next game.

Honestly, I don't think it would change that much unless spell casting was really common. However, if spell casting was rare, spell casters could expect to be exploited by their government for military purposes so you'd be unlikely to even hear about them outside of military and government services.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Honestly, I don't think it would change that much unless spell casting was really common. However, if spell casting was rare, spell casters could expect to be exploited by their government for military purposes so you'd be unlikely to even hear about them outside of military and government services.

Why do you think high level adventurers are often given land and noble titles? It's to make them invested in the country's success. You want to recruit powerful wizards, you don't want them feeling strong-armed or underpaid.

[jas61292]

You know, the funny thing with this whole example of food, and the theoretical reactions people are giving for opponents of magical foods, is that we are pretty much seeing this exact same thing in real life right now. Except instead of magic, its science. Genetically modified organisms. Thanks to science and technology, we have been able to greatly increase our crop yield through genetic modification. And these foods are not only perfectly healthy to eat, but in many cases, may contain important nutrients that non GMO versions do not. And yet, despite this, there is a large anti-GMO movement; large enough that companies will not only provide non GMO products, but use this fact in advertising to attract customers.

Now, of course, there is a lot more to the debate than just this, and I'm not trying to minimize to points of one side or the other. However, it its easy to see this as a good comparison to our magical food scenario. Even if there is in fact nothing wrong with magical food, a change to a magical food production society would require tons of changes, not all of them positive, and so there would absolutely be push back. Whether the reasons for the push back are real or based in falsehoods like some people above suggested, well, its hard to know for sure. But most likely, there would be some of both, just like we see in real life.

[Vogonjeltz]

Oxford has an agricultural sciences program. Druids trying to "save the wilderness" (never mind that the environmental movement and nature-as-god is a post-industrial philosophy) would want more efficient crop fields, considering that agriculture is the biggest polluting industry even today, and consumes and destroys more land than even strip mining.

Counterpoint: Even the most worldly D&D characters have nothing on modern awareness of the impact of farming and won't give two hoots.

Also, Druids are (in 5e) specifically geared towards concerns about the elemental balance of things to ensure the entire world doesn't get pulled into the Plane of Fire killing everyone.

When preventing the fiery apocalypse is a very real and pressing possibility, it puts crop rotations on something of a back burner. (Pun intended)

I'm inclined to think almost anyone with a lick of capacity to do these things will have a better use of their time and energy. (And probably much higher priorities as with the Druid and Cleric)

[Regitnui]

I'm inclined to think almost anyone with a lick of capacity to do these things will have a better use of their time and energy. (And probably much higher priorities as with the Druid and Cleric)

Who says they can't do both? Eberron's Eldeen Reaches region is largely ruled by the various druid sects. The Wardens of the Wood actually help farmers with magic, and as a result, the already-fertile Eldeen Reaches are the breadbasket of the continent.

[raygun goth]

Counterpoint: Even the most worldly D&D characters have nothing on modern awareness of the impact of farming and won't give two hoots.

Druids are the most worldly characters, that's in their job description.


Also, Druids are (in 5e) specifically geared towards concerns about the elemental balance of things to ensure the entire world doesn't get pulled into the Plane of Fire killing everyone.

When preventing the fiery apocalypse is a very real and pressing possibility, it puts crop rotations on something of a back burner. (Pun intended)

So maintaining an elemental balance has nothing to do with helping society have a minimal impact on the workings of nature?


I'm inclined to think almost anyone with a lick of capacity to do these things will have a better use of their time and energy. (And probably much higher priorities as with the Druid and Cleric)

Once they hit level 5? Quite possibly.

Though, 5e, like 4e before it, is built around a "points of light" style setting. Cities and settlements are highly concentrated in vast tracts of dangerous, deadly wilderness fill with unearthly monsters. The "better things to do" is quite literally "prevent towns and cities from being swallowed up by encroaching terrors in the wilds," and just like Attack on Titan, the best option would be to build your cities around your farmland, lock down like you're ready for a siege at any time, and then milk that business for all it's worth (really, they've got enough space in there to fit the entire square footage of the nation of Cambodia).

Magic would likely lead to a very early Green Revolution, with agricultural technology experiencing a boom as people are able to make do with fewer acreages and less crop rotation due to even simple things like druidcraft and alchemy. Cities would have more reason to construct urban planning with the idea that your farms are on the inside and "rural" areas actually gradate from the inner ring areas out to the walls themselves, and city infrastructure would be built around both the city's teleport gates and the defensive fortifications (and heavily around their anti-air). Once the infrastructure grows dependent on druid usage (by, say, increasing the amount of industrial land they have by cutting into their farms), it would be difficult to eradicate their use, since the infrastructure then becomes codependent. Seriously, I could write a paper.

Not saying those casters wouldn't have better things to do, just that it's an option that's on the table.

And that it results in something way cooler than "medieval Europe but not we swear, also we're just going to erase all non-European cultures but not before stealing potatoes and pepper from them" or the Tippyverse.

Think about it. Cities with curved walls that, from overhead, look like star forts crossed with cell growths. As the city plans to expand, they build a curved wall in two directions to meet, to enclose the farm land, out from an already existent series of circles, all radiating out from the central point, the teleport landing pad.

[LudicSavant]

I don't think it would make much difference honestly. If you read the PHB, Clerics are divine champions who, I would assume, have a higher calling then simply working in agriculture. Druids are all about the balance between man and nature, so I don't see them deliberately upsetting agricultural production in a way that would create an unnatural abundance. And Wizards are highly educated academics. Which implies that their family had enough Gold to send them to the D&D equivalent of Oxford, which would make Wizards rather rare outside of the Nobility, and nobles aren't really known for caring about some rural hamlet's crop yield.

This is, of course, completely backwards.

Firstly, you seem to mistake a disdain for the slave as a disdain for the plantation. Nobles were often well-educated in terms of logistics (or employed people who were), and had good cause to care for the well-being of their land's resources, since that's where they ultimately get their money and power. Feudal nobles are, after all, landlords. And when they fight each other, they frequently do so because they want resources like "arable land" for their farmers and other industries.

Secondly, rituals to make the crops grow is one of the primary pursuits of religion throughout world history, and feeding the hungry is considered an exalted pursuit or holy duty in many faiths. That, and agricultural casters (including druids) are already an established thing in published D&D settings. There've even been published class options specifically for that.

But more than any of that: cultures that put magic to practical use are going to dramatically outcompete and overtake cultures that do not. Those who stick their noses in the air and say that they have "better things to do" are going to be destroyed utterly by those who are actually doing the better things. Sneering at logistics is simply not a good survival strategy.

[Hrugner]

But more than any of that: cultures that put magic to practical use are going to dramatically outcompete and overtake cultures that do not. Those who stick their noses in the air and say that they have "better things to do" are going to be destroyed utterly by those who are actually doing the better things. Sneering at logistics is simply not a good survival strategy.

That works as a principal for the whole society, but the actual caster can benefit more by finding places where someone else is already doing the dirty work. Their power isn't as hooked into society working as it needs to, so they don't really need to stay invested.

[Regitnui]

That works as a principal for the whole society, but the actual caster can benefit more by finding places where someone else is already doing the dirty work. Their power isn't as hooked into society working as it needs to, so they don't really need to stay invested.

Let's not forget the difference between a Player Character and an NPC. The NPC caster is the sort to be employed to cast plant growth on a field all day, while the PC's talents are better spent elsewhere.

[illequidam]

wow great points, everyone. I realize "high fantasy" is ambiguous, so for this world suppose magic users are incredibly common. it's an arcane society. magical training, regardless of class, requires time and discipline but not cash. the masses (let's say about 3/4 of society) know cantrips and maybe a few tier 1 spells. the remaining quarter knows tier 2 or 3 spells, with a rare handful knowing tier 4 spells. this latter group is almost exclusively concerned with preventing the region from, say, collapsing into the fire plane. they're rarely around. there's obviously no one way this is going to go, but I'm liking the ideas so far.

I'm thinking of listing some of my favorite ideas in the original post, like fabricate. I also like the defensive city arrangement. as for the earthly balance druids... well, there could be variety - some could drive society's food production while others could fervently oppose what they see as an unbalance.

one thing no one has mentioned, which came up in rhe Pathfinder "Ultimate Intrigue" book, is that in a high fantasy setting some schools of magic will be forbidden within the city (e.g. necromancy, enchantment, and in some contexts illusion). in some fantasy novels (I'm thinking "Three Parts Dead") flying is forbidden.

also, what happens when Planar Binding is common among the folks in charge?

this society is going to be awesome.

[War_lord]

Oxford has an agricultural sciences program. Druids trying to "save the wilderness" (never mind that the environmental movement and nature-as-god is a post-industrial philosophy) would want more efficient crop fields, considering that agriculture is the biggest polluting industry even today, and consumes and destroys more land than even strip mining.

The reason 21st century western agriculture is so polluting is because it's hyper efficient, to the point that food is mega cheap and most of it ends up getting binned in the end. Economy of scale dictates that the most efficient farms are the largest farms, with the only limiting factor being labor and space. Artificially creating an abundance of grain is going to create a surplus of food. A surplus of food is going to lead to rapid population grow as rural peasant families have more kids, those kids are going to grow up and want their own farms to feed their own families. The existing land suitable for farming will get claimed very quickly. The only way for people to get more farmland is land clearance, land clearance is the polite term for deforestation, the thing a forest druid dedicates their whole life to preventing. 48% percent of modern deforestation in our world is caused by Subsistence farming, the same type of farm that dominates any medieval setting.


This is, of course, completely backwards.

In my view, from my perspective, it's the opposite. The basis people have for supporting the idea of a "magical revolution" seems to me to be very rooted in the modern (I say modern, but it dates back as far as the Roman Latifundium) concept of Intensive farming, that is farming for a strictly commercial purpose.


Firstly, you seem to mistake a disdain for the slave as a disdain for the plantation. Nobles were often well-educated in terms of logistics (or employed people who were), and had good cause to care for the well-being of their land's resources, since that's where they ultimately get their money and power. Feudal nobles are, after all, landlords. And when they fight each other, they frequently do so because they want resources like "arable land" for their farmers and other industries.

What slaves? What plantation? Typcial D&D is western Medieval fantasy, the rural commoners are subsistence farmers, either serfs or freeholders. Freeholders owned their land, didn't owe the local baron or count anything, but were responsible for their own protection. A serf's parcel of land was part of a lord's manor, he had protection, justice and certain limited rights in exchange for labor. "Labour" consisted of seasonal work on the lord's manor and limited military service in times of war. The entire feudal system is geared towards fielding a military force, not large scale agricultural commerce, it's horrible for that due to the total lack of centralization.


Secondly, rituals to make the crops grow is one of the primary pursuits of religion throughout world history, and feeding the hungry is considered an exalted pursuit or holy duty in many faiths. That, and agricultural casters (including druids) are already an established thing in published D&D settings. There've even been published class options specifically for that.

The historical rituals were to make the crops grow during the harvest. I would imagine that in D&D a harvest god would have a specific reason for the classic harvest cycle, and would be less than pleased with someone in a fancy robe messing with it for fun and profit.


But more than any of that: cultures that put magic to practical use are going to dramatically outcompete and overtake cultures that do not. Those who stick their noses in the air and say that they have "better things to do" are going to be destroyed utterly by those who are actually doing the better things. Sneering at logistics is simply not a good survival strategy.

We're not dealing with large centralized states here. We're talking feudal kingdoms, which are by their nature, inefficient. Any magic dependent society is going to be very heavily centralized, probably around the Wizards on top.

[Tanarii]

edit: wow great points, everyone. I realize "high fantasy" is ambiguous, so for this world suppose magic users are incredibly common. it's an arcane society. magical training, regardless of class, requires time and discipline but not cash. the masses (let's say about 3/4 of society) know cantrips and maybe a few tier 1 spells. the remaining quarter knows tier 2 or 3 spells, with a rare handful knowing tier 4 spells. this latter group is almost exclusively concerned with preventing the region from, say, collapsing into the fire plane. they're rarely around. there's obviously no one way this is going to go, but I'm liking the ideas so far.
I have no clue what you mean by spell tiers. But the real question is how man people are level 1+ casters, how many are 5+ casters, and how many that actually stick around and participate in society are level 11+? And then ... how common are magic items, does anyone actually still know how to make them or are magic item formula exceedingly rare?

I consider magic to be ubiquitous in my campaign, but magic items are rare. Everyone knows common urban myths about how it works, and no one will be surprised by seeing it used or particularly scared of it. But even so, level 11+ characters (or the NPC equivalent) are high level and correspondingly rare. I don't use hard stats for it, but for 5e I roughly assume something like:
1/100th level 1 or higher, or equivalent CR 1/8 (cultists, guards, bandits). Up to 10x this in dangerous areas PCs frequent like frontiers/borderlands. But this is the overall population.
1/2 that for each level above up through 5:
1/200 for level 2 or CR 1/2 (acolytes, thugs)
1/1600 for level 5 or CR 2-3 (berserkers, priests, knights)
1/5th previous for each level above 5 thru 10:
1 in 1,000,000 for level 9 / CR 6 (Mage)

So level 9+ characters are 1 in a million, and even though they're almost all concentrated in frontier/dangerous areas it's still maybe 1 in 100k, which is about how I treat them. You can't just find a cleric to raise dead, there might be one in the whole territory who can do it. No PCs have lived to this level yet either. Level 1-3 spells are very common (in frontier areas, about 1/300 characters can cast up to level 3 spells by this, which sounds about right for my campaign.) But level 4+ spells are correspondingly hard to find. (Note from what I've heard, this is about the same as Eberron. I don't know that campaign, but I've heard that the highest level characters, rulers of the realm, are all level 10 or so.)

OTOH IMC magic items are rare because magic item formula are almost non-existent and jealously protected. I understand you're not making this assumption at all, but the question remains "how common are higher level spells/magic item creation" and of course "how much do those casters charge for their services"?


Edit: As a side note, if you take the PC XP table curve and invert the curve for fraction of people surviving & making it to the next level, then after level 10-11 it becomes very easy to keep going up rapidly. So if you're using 1/5 or so for level 6-10, then it'd probably be reasonable to go back down to using 1/2 (or better) for each additional level. In other words, the number of people of level 10+ might be 1 in 5 million, but they'd likely be fairly evenly spread across levels 10-20. Especially if they start getting have access to magic bring back the dead, or knowing others who do, which is reasonable if they're that powerful.

[War_lord]

A noble class may or may not care about the serfs' quality of life, but they are very likely to care about the output of their serfs' labor. This is why the feudal system exchanges protection for labor in the first place; because nobles desire the labor of the serfs.

They care about the output of the Serf's labor only so far as it effects their bottom line. Are the Serfs producing enough to feed themselves, are they producing enough to feed my household? Once the answer to both questions is yes, there's no pressure to increase efficiency.


Incidentally, your entire tangent about feudalism seems based on an erroneous assumption: That D&D societies (or even medieval societies) are and must be uniformly governed by feudalism. In reality, feudalism is but one of the many forms of government detailed in the DMG (not to mention in D&D's many published settings), and the only limits of D&D settings in general are your imagination

Yes, you can totally create any sort of homebrew setting you want. But OP originally just specified "high fantasy", which doesn't necessarily mean a world divorced from the reality of Medieval governance. The wealth section of the PHB does state that peasants trade in goods, the nobility trade in legal rights and Merchants deal in coin, so there was some assumption of a typical medieval setting. But the OP did later clarify that he means a setting where magic is an innate part of everyone's life, so really the economics of the typical kingdom aren't really relevant in light of that. I was only trying to contribute within the framework of the question as it was originally posed.

[LudicSavant]

What slaves? What plantation? It is called a metaphor. Since that's apparently too complicated, I shall be more direct.

A noble class may or may not care about the serfs' quality of life, but they are very likely to care about the output of their serfs' labor. This is why the feudal system exchanges protection for labor in the first place; because nobles desire the labor of the serfs.

Incidentally, your entire tangent about feudalism seems based on an erroneous assumption: That D&D societies (or even medieval societies) are and must be uniformly governed by feudalism. In reality, feudalism is but one of the many forms of government detailed in the DMG (not to mention in D&D's many published settings), and the only limits of D&D settings in general are your imagination.


The historical rituals were to make the crops grow during the harvest. I would imagine that in D&D a harvest god would have a specific reason for the classic harvest cycle, and would be less than pleased with someone in a fancy robe messing with it for fun and profit. At this point it seems like you're just inventing reasons to be contrary. In this case, inventing deific decrees insisting on your worldview. Quite the deus ex machina.

Quite frankly, if all of the gods never wanted Nature Clerics and Druids to cast Plant Growth, they probably wouldn't get that spell on their list to begin with. I doubt the designers wrote the effect with the intention that nobody would ever cast it.

[SharkForce]

well, i think the biggest thing to look at would be to start with cantrips, as those are the most common available magic proposed in addition to being at-will. followed by rituals, as those are also much more accessible than spells (you don't need to be a full wizard to be able to use rituals, so it presumably takes a lot less training), and are once again usable as often as you have time to do it.

so, cantrips:

to start with, basically any of the combat cantrips (especially ranged ones, which will mean infinite ammunition is a possibility) means a pretty big change in how warfare will probably be conducted, and in the amount of threat posed by creatures with resistance or immunity to normal damage. but, i don't really feel like repeating that over and over, so i'm only going to call out potential uses *beyond* simply replacing standard weapons.


acid splash: no major special implications.
blade ward: possible uses in professions that deal with sharp objects (lumber industry, butchers, etc) or potentially being struck by something heavy (perhaps some entertainers), but most likely nothing much still.
chill touch: no major effects.
booming blade: no major effects.
create bonfire: this likely leads to not needing much fuel for heat or cooking. no indication on the ability to heat things to a point usable for forging all metals, but i would say it is likely that metals with lower melting points (eg lead, gold) would no longer require fuel either.
control flame: this does help provide more light from fire, but due to other spells that is relatively minor i would suspect. what this really does is *dramatically* reduce the danger of fires getting out of control, when a team of 4-5 fire fighters can extinguish 5 foot cubes of fire every ~6 seconds each. these people will also be necessary for war, of course; when half your army is probably fighting with fire, being able to extinguish the flames that threaten your own troops is of very high value.
dancing lights: the availability of this cantrip likely reduces the need of fuel for light down to near zero. but it's worse for light than that, so probably not so much. what i expect it is more used for is as a signal. you get 4 lights, they don't need to be on an object, and you can move them around... you could probably develop a number of specialized "written" languages to quickly communicate certain types of information with this. doubly useful if you get to decide on a colour.
druidcraft: accurate weather prediction is a pretty big deal. the ability to instantly make flowers bloom, budding leaves grow, and seed pods open likely has some interesting agricultural uses, making it easier to harvest various resources and potentially quickening a growing season, although it would be somewhat labour intensive since it appears we're talking about one at a time.
eldritch blast: no major effects.
fire bolt: this cantrip is notable for being able to target objects, which most combat cantrips don't do. i'm not sure what that would mean in the long run, though.
friends: hard to say. honestly, i suspect the biggest effect of this spell will be to make people that know it quickly become pariahs. it may also lead to laws being established that require a contract or agreement to be in place for a minimum amount of time after being witnessed etc before it becomes binding in any way.
frostbite: no major effects.
greenflame blade: no major effects.
guidance: this likely will see widespread use by a huge variety of people. it will likely ultimately cancel out in opposed checks, but will be highly valuable for important unopposed checks.
gust: might have some uses for situations where wind power is used, but it probably doesn't pack enough of a punch to be significant; you can't propel a ship, or turn a windmill. you could probably blow the chaff away from wheat, or otherwise separate lightweight particles from heavier. it should probably be possible to clear a small area of fog, but nothing indicates that as a possibility in the text; if that was possible, it would likely be used to keep important roads clear in bad weather. another possible use might be in moving objects in difficult-to-reach spaces. or for forced ventilation of mines and such.
light: this would be a lot more valuable for providing light than the dancing lights spell. less useful for signalling, although this *definitely* can be whatever colour you like, which might have some applications for signalling in combination with the dancing lights.
lightning lure: no major effects
mage hand: this has all kinds of implications for convenience. arcane trickster suggests relatively low amounts of manipulation are possible by default, so it is probably primarily used for retrieving things in hard-to-reach places. it might eliminate the need for ladders and such in harvesting from fruit trees, although i strongly suspect not being close enough to see the fruit and move branches out of the way would make that harder. it would also have some implications for security, i suspect; windows would likely need to have glass to be considered secure, for example (the spell still requires LoE as far as i know).
magic stone: no major effects.
mending: with this spell around, things will wear out a lot more slowly than they otherwise would. this might allow for poorer construction on unimportant objects, but it may also lead to craftsmen having a much higher focus on quality over quantity than usual due to less expectation of repeat business. a cobbler can no longer expect people to need new shoes when their old ones get holes, for example.
message: this has some interesting implications in terms of information security. long-range communication will likely be done much more quickly with spells like dancing lights i suspect, but shorter-range communication of highly secure subjects could be done with this. expect to see it used for conveying information like passwords, confidential information about customers, etc.
minor illusion: primary use, apart from deception, would probably be for entertainment. it may also allow people to more easily convey visual information.
mold earth: depending a great deal on what counts as "loose earth", this could really change things up. if "loose earth" means "a pile of dirt that someone has already dug up", this doesn't do much. if "loose earth" means "not solid rock", the implications are enormous. you could quickly build roads, dig building foundations, create simple fortifications, tunnel through the earth, plough fields, clear land, uproot trees... a great deal of physical labour is involved in a lot of engineering projects. the amount of work that this spell could save is absolutely mind-boggling. expect a nation with access to this spell to have some really impressive architecture even in unimportant places; a 20 foot deep foundation that goes in a 40 foot x 50 foot area would probably take one person no more than a couple of hours with this spell (filling the foundation with proper materials would, of course, take a lot longer).
poison spray: likely has some implications in pest control, since from what we can tell the poison immediately loses effectiveness or disappears entirely within a few seconds of use, yet is strong enough to inflict a great deal of damage within that time. also, as a saving throw spell instead of attack roll, and targeting con, it's highly effective against agile but fragile targets.
prestidigitation: makes cleaning a lot easier, assuming there is some awareness of the importance of such (for medical uses and food preparation as some big examples). also makes the hospitality industry quite different; keep warm food warm, cold food (and drinks) cold, and make sure things always taste just right, without needing to transport spices over long distances. the limit of 3 sustained effects at a time likely means that, unless someone knows it for their own use, most places won't have enough employees to provide this effect for everyone though (so spices are still important, unless this cantrip in particular is almost universal).
produce flame: apart from presumably providing personal heat in addition to light (but not possible to provide to others the way you can with other spells), no major effects.
ray of frost: no major effect.
resistance: might have some uses in the treatment of disease and poison.
sacred flame: no major effect.
shape water: the ability to create large ice blocks makes refrigerated storage areas a real possibility. also useful for turning a large container of water into a source of power for a water wheel, and arguably for creating water-based (or ice-based) lenses (you can change the colour and opacity of the water, and alter its shape, so i'd say there's a fair chance someone playing around with it would discover at least some interesting things you could do with water as a material for making lenses).
shillelagh: no major effects.
shocking grasp: no major effects.
spare the dying: no major effects.
sword burst: no major effects.
thaumaturgy: voice amplication has a variety of uses. basically, anywhere you might see someone use a microphone or megaphone today pretty much.
thorn whip: no major effects.
thunderclap: no major effects.
true strike: some usefulness for hunters and assassins.
vicious mockery: no major effects (although it should make it a lot easier to kill small animals and pests, i suppose, being a save-based spell).

well, that was a lot of stuff. someone else wanna go through the rituals and maybe consider their uses?

[Tanarii]

Jeez shark, wall of text much? :smallbiggrin: (edit: ah much better :smallwink: )

Btw Mending only repairs a break or tear. So strictly speaking general wearing down (suck as a hole worn in a shoe sole) wouldn't be covered.

Not that I think any DM would rule that strictly when it comes to PCs with the spell. But when discussing what's effectively world-wide effects on the society, it's probably relevant.

[LudicSavant]

shape water: the ability to create large ice blocks makes refrigerated storage areas a real possibility. also useful for turning a large container of water into a source of power for a water wheel, and arguably for creating water-based (or ice-based) lenses (you can change the colour and opacity of the water, and alter its shape, so i'd say there's a fair chance someone playing around with it would discover at least some interesting things you could do with water as a material for making lenses).

A couple more Shape Water possibilities:
- Depending on interpretation, you could separate the water from something. Take the salt out of seawater. Or desiccate things to preserve them.
- Create instant molds. Get a big container of water, and drop an item you want to replicate inside, such as a tablet or a statue. Freeze the water, and remove the object. Fill the mold with clay and work it into a clay replica of the object.


druidcraft: accurate weather prediction is a pretty big deal. the ability to instantly make flowers bloom, budding leaves grow, and seed pods open likely has some interesting agricultural uses, making it easier to harvest various resources and potentially quickening a growing season, although it would be somewhat labour intensive since it appears we're talking about one at a time. This might affect aesthetic gardening as well.

[Vogonjeltz]

Who says they can't do both? Eberron's Eldeen Reaches region is largely ruled by the various druid sects. The Wardens of the Wood actually help farmers with magic, and as a result, the already-fertile Eldeen Reaches are the breadbasket of the continent.

Nothing says they can't put effort into both, just that any effort they put towards helping farmers is time they can't spend combatting the forces of elemental evil that threaten to destroy reality as they know it.

It just sounds totally crazy to waste time on something so utterly trivial when you put it like that.


So maintaining an elemental balance has nothing to do with helping society have a minimal impact on the workings of nature?

It's related in the same way that making sure you recycle is related ending reliance on fossil fuels. The magnitude of impact from the latter utterly dwarfs the impact of the former in a way that makes it comical to consider them as being of equal importance. They aren't equal. Helping out a farmer really doesn't matter in the face of cultists.


Though, 5e, like 4e before it, is built around a "points of light" style setting. Cities and settlements are highly concentrated in vast tracts of dangerous, deadly wilderness fill with unearthly monsters. The "better things to do" is quite literally "prevent towns and cities from being swallowed up by encroaching terrors in the wilds," and just like Attack on Titan, the best option would be to build your cities around your farmland, lock down like you're ready for a siege at any time, and then milk that business for all it's worth (really, they've got enough space in there to fit the entire square footage of the nation of Cambodia).

Er, where did they get all the wall material? Seriously though, those are walls as big as skyscrapers and there are miles of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ_VfizNaJQ

[raygun goth]

It's related in the same way that making sure you recycle is related ending reliance on fossil fuels. The magnitude of impact from the latter utterly dwarfs the impact of the former in a way that makes it comical to consider them as being of equal importance. They aren't equal. Helping out a farmer really doesn't matter in the face of cultists.

One druid who can cast plant growth can double the output of, let's see, one casting hits about 3.14 square miles? That's 1146 square miles per year, medieval farming methods can feed about 2000 people per square mile a year, that's two million, four hundred thousand people. Double that number to around 4.8-5 million people. It ends up being close to about the tenth of the Roman Empire at its height. Fire cultists are small potatoes versus feeding an additional two and a half million people.

EDIT: This is incorrect, the number is closer to half a million (so farmland that can feed about a million-point-two people). Fire cultists are still small potatoes.

I would also argue that priests that don't, well, be priests, aren't doing their jobs and asking for a smiting. Of course agricultural gods want you to do fertility rituals over the harvest, that's literally what that spell was designed for in the first place. It is a fertility rite that boosts the output of a half mile of farms. Why would the very gods who came up with it in the first place not want people to cast it?

"Yeah, I know you have healing spells that I granted you, but I'd rather you let people bleed."


Er, where did they get all the wall material? Seriously though, those are walls as big as skyscrapers and there are miles of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ_VfizNaJQ

Thank you, I was actually looking for this video. Stone is one of the earliest quarried materials in the world, and it is so frustratingly common as a medium for megalithic structures that there are people who, even now, complain that there is no way ancient people could have possibly moved big things. You want evidence, go look at how many cities in the middle east were made of it, many of which are still, in at least some small part, standing today. I'm not talking about anything near as grand as the Titan walls, mind you, but this D&D, it is a world where a bulette could wander in out of nowhere and devastate land for miles around before being stopped. In our world, the Great Wall was built on a whim for an enemy that might be coming. If there is an enemy that can drop in on you at any time for no applicable reason that takes an army to stop, they will find the stone to build a wall for it.

Can't use stone wall any more, that has a duration. How about that extra two and a half million people?

EDIT: My math is wrong. I am leaving it wrong, please see below.

[SharkForce]

wall of stone actually becomes permanent if you concentrate for the full 10 minutes ;)

[Vogonjeltz]

One druid who can cast plant growth can double the output of, let's see, one casting hits about 3.14 square miles? That's 1146 square miles per year, medieval farming methods can feed about 2000 people per square mile a year, that's two million, four hundred thousand people. Double that number to around 4.8-5 million people. It ends up being close to about the tenth of the Roman Empire at its height. Fire cultists are small potatoes versus feeding an additional two and a half million people.

I would also argue that priests that don't, well, be priests, aren't doing their jobs and asking for a smiting. Of course agricultural gods want you to do fertility rituals over the harvest, that's literally what that spell was designed for in the first place. It is a fertility rite that boosts the output of a half mile of farms. Why would the very gods who came up with it in the first place not want people to cast it?

"Yeah, I know you have healing spells that I granted you, but I'd rather you let people bleed."



Thank you, I was actually looking for this video. Stone is one of the earliest quarried materials in the world, and it is so frustratingly common as a medium for megalithic structures that there are people who, even now, complain that there is no way ancient people could have possibly moved big things. You want evidence, go look at how many cities in the middle east were made of it, many of which are still, in at least some small part, standing today. I'm not talking about anything near as grand as the Titan walls, mind you, but this D&D, it is a world where a bulette could wander in out of nowhere and devastate land for miles around before being stopped. In our world, the Great Wall was built on a whim for an enemy that might be coming. If there is an enemy that can drop in on you at any time for no applicable reason that takes an army to stop, they will find the stone to build a wall for it.

Can't use stone wall any more, that has a duration. How about that extra two and a half million people?

Re: Druids, 2.5million is still not even close to all people. The stakes from elemental imbalance are always going to be higher.

Re: Clerics, they aren't synonymous with Priests. Not all clerics are priests or vice versa and not all priests can even cast spells.

[SharkForce]

if everyone is only ever doing things that benefit *all* people, then basically nothing will get done.

frankly, i think a level 5 character is going to be hard pressed to find ways to impact a larger percentage of "all" than 2.5 million.

[RickAllison]

Re: Druids, 2.5million is still not even close to all people. The stakes from elemental imbalance are always going to be higher.

Re: Clerics, they aren't synonymous with Priests. Not all clerics are priests or vice versa and not all priests can even cast spells.

Druids are highly independent, even within their circles. No, the world-class druids and those with the greatest experience dealing with fire cultists are likely doing so, and they are probably fantastic at it! Meanwhile, their much lower-level compatriots are correcting smaller imbalances like farmland encroaching on the forest, ensuring the goblins aren't over-hunting game in the hills, and so on. And keep in mind that the statistics for feeding that population are for a single druid and that cities with more than 25,000 are rare. For a sense of scale, the population I obtained by summing the population statistics for Faerun (an entire continent) was 70 million people, but let's double that to account for various monsters, tribute, etc. Keep in mind that this is the population of the entire relevant area of the Forgotten Realms. That means 28 druids of level 5 or more cuts needed agricutural land in half. That is easily one group under an agricultural goddess! They just go around using Plant Growth in service to their deity and allow so much land to go for the use of nature. Just one decent circle of druids solves this entire issue, leaving a great population to have much more free time, energy, and space to fight the elemental evil.

[Naanomi]

Once you start twisting settings around to make high level casters more common, all kinds of setting stuff starts becoming different... but even 1st level spells (any variant human may pick up from magic initiate) start having impact if prevalent enough...

Comprehend languages... create water... cure wounds... detect disease... find familiar... good berry... purify food/drink... silent image... speak with animals... unseen seevant...

All leading to potentially drastic changes to a classic setting

[Regitnui]

Once you start twisting settings around to make high level casters more common, all kinds of setting stuff starts becoming different... but even 1st level spells (any variant human may pick up from magic initiate) start having impact if prevalent enough...

Comprehend languages... create water... cure wounds... detect disease... find familiar... good berry... purify food/drink... silent image... speak with animals... unseen seevant...

All leading to potentially drastic changes to a classic setting

To limit the scope of the question, I think we can assume that the Magic Initiate feat would be the source of most people's spellcasting. That's what, 2 cantrips and a 1st level spell. Then include working professionals who use spells, like magewrights (wizard/artificer), gleaners (druids), and adepts (clerics) who can hit 2nd or 3rd level spells after a lifetime of research and practice.

While the 9th- or even 5th-level spells adventurers use have greater impact, there's not enough people who can cast them, and few of them cast the spells for money like the above 'professional mages'.

[Alatar]

So level 9+ characters are 1 in a million

That's the current incidence of astronomers.

[Naanomi]

To limit the scope of the question, I think we can assume that the Magic Initiate feat would be the source of most people's spellcasting.
Well, and ritual caster feat... probably the more relevant society-wise (though... I guess combat cantrips via magic initiate make a scary town guard!)

As for the 'magewrite' artifact production bit... just make artifice a highly specialized craft skill, no reason (besides tradition) to make spellcasting a requirement in the process

[raygun goth]

Got my math wrong. Leaving my incorrect calculations up for all to see my shame.

Even so, with the area (rather than circumference, because I am an idiot) of a mile-wide circle, one level 5 druid can still feed about an extra 674,450 people. That's a smaller number, but not by much. Still plenty of stone workers.

To feed the Roman Empire at its height (over 54 million people) on half the farmland, you'd need, what, less than 50 level 5 druids? That means you need one per 1.1 million people. That's not counting move earth and shape water technologies mentioned above.

Food and kcal outputs (http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0207e/T0207E04.htm).

[LudicSavant]

The area of Plant Growth is a half mile radius, not a mile radius. As such it covers about ~.79 square miles, not 3.14 square miles. This is, of course, still a very large area capable of feeding a great many people. Moreover, it is worth noting that the agricultural Druid or Bard is even more impactful than this, because they have a good deal more in their arsenal than just Plant Growth. They also have Druidcraft, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Speak With Plants, Speak With Animals, Detect Poison and Disease, Purify Food and Drink, and so forth, all of which are potentially very impactful. Quite simply, they increase the value of land over what a typical medieval society produces, then double that.

A level 5 Agridruid can do any of the following and then some:
- .79 square miles of land doubles its crop yields, per 8 hours of casting (so, max 1-2 casts per day in typical conditions). Incidentally, vertical farming techniques could provide a significant increase efficiency per casting (the actual potential area isn't just ~.79 square miles of flat conventional farmland, it's a colossal ~.52 cubic mile sphere).
- Accurate weather prediction, one day out.
- One bloom per 6 seconds, if handled manually.
- Plant and animal politicking. Not simple to quantify, but potentially very impactful.
- Shape the land to be more productive with Mold Earth.
- Shape Water does a number of things to improve preservation, amongst other technologies.
- Detect disease alone would likely quickly revolutionize a medieval culture's understanding of how diseases work, and they would adapt accordingly.
- Purify Food and Drink for ~523.6 cubic feet of stuff, once per ten minutes of work. That's nearly 4000 gallons of stuff per casting.
- Guidance considerably increases all sufficiently important skill checks.
- Mending prevents equipment wear and tear.
- Water Breathing and other spells allow for exploration of underwater environments many centuries earlier than would be otherwise possible, and presents unique opportunities in aquaculture.

Note that an Agribard can do largely the same thing. As can a Nature Cleric.

Also, potentially any level 1 human can cast cantrips and first level spells or rituals by taking the proper feat.

[Sigreid]

Re: Druids, 2.5million is still not even close to all people. The stakes from elemental imbalance are always going to be higher.

Re: Clerics, they aren't synonymous with Priests. Not all clerics are priests or vice versa and not all priests can even cast spells.

I think you're underestimating the value an order dedicated to preserving nature's balance would place on good will. Essentially for 1 spell cast once per year a druid will likely be highly regarded, listened to when he speaks, and supported when the need arises. That can be invaluable to someone trying to keep a evil cult from getting a foothold.

[SharkForce]

I think you're underestimating the value an order dedicated to preserving nature's balance would place on good will. Essentially for 1 spell cast once per year a druid will likely be highly regarded, listened to when he speaks, and supported when the need arises. That can be invaluable to someone trying to keep a evil cult from getting a foothold.

that's 1 druid casting the spell over and over all year, pretty much :P

[Sigreid]

that's 1 druid casting the spell over and over all year, pretty much :P

Nah, I'd imagine that he would just do it for the farmers of the township he most closely associated with, not wondering around town to town. So, 1-4 castings at most.

[Naanomi]

I wonder if ready access to 'speak with animals' would change the morality of meat consumption? I like eating all sorts of animals right now, but if Sally on the corner could reliably have conversations with them... it might adjust not only food relationships but also livestock, pets, mounts...

[Ovarwa]

So,

If our modern world is a worthwhile indicator, then the introduction of magically enhanced agriculture and manufacturing will likely first cause an increase in the birthrate and then a dramatic decrease.

Initial conditions: Children are economically necessary because agriculture is labor-intensive. Life expectancy is short because modern clericism hasn't been discovered. Population growth is low; births among the lowest classes is high, but so is the death rate.

Enter magic....

Phase 0: Cantrips and low level curative spells from Stabilize to Revivify decrease early (and late) mortality rates. Agricultural spells make food more abundant. Both cause population to increase.

Phase 1: The value of labor decreases as the number of laborers increase and as magical automation reduces the need for laborers. (Undead for truly unskilled labor....) Farmers are kicked off their land or lose it, replaced by fewer but more skilled agricultural specialists. Populations continue to grow, and hazardous, child labor for low becomes more prevalent. Towns and cities grow at the expense of rural areas.

Phase 2: People shift toward more skilled and specialized occupations. Children become more of an economic burden than benefit, as their labor becomes less important and the time spent educating them increases. The birthrate slows down. Physical strength matters less as magical power takes over, subverting the traditional role, value and social advantages of men compared to women, who begin to gain more rights, including rights that further decrease the birthrate. Population continues to rise due to decreased mortality, but slower. The average age of the population increases. Cities grow ever larger.

Phase 3: The modern D&D era. Cities and towns are far cleaner, larger and more prosperous than their medieval analogs. Women have more rights and fewer children. Politics have not yet caught up to our modern world, because power in D&D lies more in exceptional individuals than in impersonal technology and the machinery of mass industrialization. Freehold farmers still exist, just as in our world, but they are not the main event, and require magical rather than corporate products to keep from going under. Second Amendment Rights are taken for granted due to the number of monsters.

Some social tresses:

Health care: The wealthy have access to spells like Resurrection and Reincarnation, but the poor do not. Churches supply basic free health care to believers, especially those who express their belief through tithes, so in some sense D&D has basic universal heath coverage. But the difference in quality and outcome is obvious. IIRC, Reincarnation can let someone live forever, which leads to the question of what happens to the younger generation. Perhaps that is why there are so many adventurers....

Freedom of Religion: Since clerics are so useful, and are organized, one can expect religious rivalries and prejudices to matter even more than in our world. Unlike in our world, in which temporal power superseded spiritual authority, that is not likely to happen anytime soon in D&D.

The Decline of Independent Artisans and Freeholders: As craft and agriculture involves more magic, independent workers grow fewer, in favor of professionals who work for or contract to organizations (who perhaps sponsor their student loans!). The associated skills also atrophy to the extent that they can be replaced by magic. Social dislocations are continual, as in our world, punctuated by new crises arising every time WotC publishes a new book containing spells....

Challenge to the Ruling Aristocracy: As the emergent magical social class continues to grow in numbers and influence, they will challenge the existing order and demand a larger say in running things. Bounded Accuracy makes it more likely that a disgruntled group of lower level wizards, bards or clerics can challenge their more powerful superiors in their respective organizations. Socialist revolutions are not likely, because Marxist ideas about the value of a person versus the means of production are obviously not true in D&D. But an American-style revolution of the upper middle bourgeoisie and lower gentry seeking to extract rights from a venerable aristocracy is more likely, as might a process similar to the development of the modern British monarchy.

Anyway,

Ken
----
With Simulacrum, Amidala *can* be in two places at once!

[Sigreid]

I wonder if ready access to 'speak with animals' would change the morality of meat consumption? I like eating all sorts of animals right now, but if Sally on the corner could reliably have conversations with them... it might adjust not only food relationships but also livestock, pets, mounts...

I think that depends on an individual. From a druid's perspective I don't think it would as they clearly are mentally limited and as was put so beautifully in a movie I saw a long time ago Ecology is just a fancy word for stuff eating other stuff.

[Sigreid]

So,

If our modern world is a worthwhile indicator, then the introduction of magically enhanced agriculture and manufacturing will likely first cause an increase in the birthrate and then a dramatic decrease.

Initial conditions: Children are economically necessary because agriculture is labor-intensive. Life expectancy is short because modern clericism hasn't been discovered. Population growth is low; births among the lowest classes is high, but so is the death rate.

Enter magic....

Phase 0: Cantrips and low level curative spells from Stabilize to Revivify decrease early (and late) mortality rates. Agricultural spells make food more abundant. Both cause population to increase.

Phase 1: The value of labor decreases as the number of laborers increase and as magical automation reduces the need for laborers. (Undead for truly unskilled labor....) Farmers are kicked off their land or lose it, replaced by fewer but more skilled agricultural specialists. Populations continue to grow, and hazardous, child labor for low becomes more prevalent. Towns and cities grow at the expense of rural areas.

Phase 2: People shift toward more skilled and specialized occupations. Children become more of an economic burden than benefit, as their labor becomes less important and the time spent educating them increases. The birthrate slows down. Physical strength matters less as magical power takes over, subverting the traditional role, value and social advantages of men compared to women, who begin to gain more rights, including rights that further decrease the birthrate. Population continues to rise due to decreased mortality, but slower. The average age of the population increases. Cities grow ever larger.

Phase 3: The modern D&D era. Cities and towns are far cleaner, larger and more prosperous than their medieval analogs. Women have more rights and fewer children. Politics have not yet caught up to our modern world, because power in D&D lies more in exceptional individuals than in impersonal technology and the machinery of mass industrialization. Freehold farmers still exist, just as in our world, but they are not the main event, and require magical rather than corporate products to keep from going under. Second Amendment Rights are taken for granted due to the number of monsters.

Some social tresses:

Health care: The wealthy have access to spells like Resurrection and Reincarnation, but the poor do not. Churches supply basic free health care to believers, especially those who express their belief through tithes, so in some sense D&D has basic universal heath coverage. But the difference in quality and outcome is obvious. IIRC, Reincarnation can let someone live forever, which leads to the question of what happens to the younger generation. Perhaps that is why there are so many adventurers....

Freedom of Religion: Since clerics are so useful, and are organized, one can expect religious rivalries and prejudices to matter even more than in our world. Unlike in our world, in which temporal power superseded spiritual authority, that is not likely to happen anytime soon in D&D.

The Decline of Independent Artisans and Freeholders: As craft and agriculture involves more magic, independent workers grow fewer, in favor of professionals who work for or contract to organizations (who perhaps sponsor their student loans!). The associated skills also atrophy to the extent that they can be replaced by magic. Social dislocations are continual, as in our world, punctuated by new crises arising every time WotC publishes a new book containing spells....

Challenge to the Ruling Aristocracy: As the emergent magical social class continues to grow in numbers and influence, they will challenge the existing order and demand a larger say in running things. Bounded Accuracy makes it more likely that a disgruntled group of lower level wizards, bards or clerics can challenge their more powerful superiors in their respective organizations. Socialist revolutions are not likely, because Marxist ideas about the value of a person versus the means of production are obviously not true in D&D. But an American-style revolution of the upper middle bourgeoisie and lower gentry seeking to extract rights from a venerable aristocracy is more likely, as might a process similar to the development of the modern British monarchy.

Anyway,

Ken
----
With Simulacrum, Amidala *can* be in two places at once!

I think the real key falls in with any child labor laws. That's really the point where children go from being an economic benefit to the family to being essentially a luxury item.

[DragonSorcererX]

I think that depends on an individual. From a druid's perspective I don't think it would as they clearly are mentally limited and as was put so beautifully in a movie I saw a long time ago Ecology is just a fancy word for stuff eating other stuff.

Well... most Beasts have Int 3 or something like that... so if you ask them something like: "What attacked your siblings?" they would answer something like: "Were...wolf... food... need... poop...".

[Naanomi]

Well... most Beasts have Int 3 or something like that... so if you ask them something like: "What attacked your siblings?" they would answer something like: "Were...wolf... food... need... poop...".
I refrain from eating humans who probably have less than Int 3 statistically (and are definitely less communicative than a cow with speak with animals cast on it)... I could still see it being an issue for some people/cultures, or at least would raise the question.

Just imagine if the real world animal rights groups could waive their fingers then ask the chicken 'do you like being eaten?' and it can clearly say 'no, that would hurt'

[DragonSorcererX]

I refrain from eating humans who probably have less than Int 3 statistically (and are definitely less communicative than a cow with speak with animals cast on it)... I could still see it being an issue for some people/cultures, or at least would raise the question.

Just imagine if the real world animal rights groups could waive their fingers then ask the chicken 'do you like being eaten?' and it can clearly say 'no, that would hurt'

The chicken would answer: "No... hmmm... worms..." (read it with the voice of distracted Homer Simpson).

[SharkForce]

I refrain from eating humans who probably have less than Int 3 statistically (and are definitely less communicative than a cow with speak with animals cast on it)... I could still see it being an issue for some people/cultures, or at least would raise the question.

Just imagine if the real world animal rights groups could waive their fingers then ask the chicken 'do you like being eaten?' and it can clearly say 'no, that would hurt'

sure. i'll imagine that.

do i really need the chicken to tell me that, though? i mean, am i assumed to be so stupid that i'm unaware that the chicken might not want to get eaten?

and ultimately, so long as we're talking about druids, at some point the druid will have come to accept that stuff eats other stuff, or they're not going to be very good druids. frankly, i suspect druids, if anything, probably are more likely to have reached a point where a wider variety of stuff eating other stuff is acceptable rather than the reverse.

[Alejandro]

Don't forget the labor and safety implications of Animate Dead. While not a total labor replacement, the ability to make and control workers that don't eat (unless you lose control of them) drink, breathe, or get paid is pretty valuable. Everything from farm work to specialized tasks that have to be done in incredibly unsafe conditions can be affected.

[Sigreid]

Don't forget the labor and safety implications of Animate Dead. While not a total labor replacement, the ability to make and control workers that don't eat (unless you lose control of them) drink, breathe, or get paid is pretty valuable. Everything from farm work to specialized tasks that have to be done in incredibly unsafe conditions can be affected.

If possible animated objects such as armor and golems would on the whole be a safer alternative than the animated dead. Now keeping skeletons lying in state to be animated should the city be under attack would be logical. A given society might even allow people to sell their skeletons for cash or to abolish tax debt for this purpose.

[Naanomi]

A given society might even allow people to sell their skeletons for cash or to abolish tax debt for this purpose.
I have a country like that in my homebrew setting... almost everyone lives in the luxury with undead performing most duties, seeking education or hedonism at your lesure... but the poor and unindustrius give up their bodies in death as skeletons and zombies; those who prove themselves get turned into higher-order undead (liches, mummies, deathknights) to become the ruling class; and those who 'escape their debt' as incorporeal undead are considered holy and 'interned' in temples and holy places

[Regitnui]

sure. i'll imagine that.

do i really need the chicken to tell me that, though? i mean, am i assumed to be so stupid that i'm unaware that the chicken might not want to get eaten?

and ultimately, so long as we're talking about druids, at some point the druid will have come to accept that stuff eats other stuff, or they're not going to be very good druids. frankly, i suspect druids, if anything, probably are more likely to have reached a point where a wider variety of stuff eating other stuff is acceptable rather than the reverse.

At the risk of offending vegetarians and vegans, the average druid shouldn't care about what their local village is eating, when it comes to meat/veg. A druid maintains balance, so will prevent overfishing, but not stop fishing. Hunters can hunt, but they must restrict themselves to common species or get permission to hunt something rarer. Humans are omnivores, in the middle of the food chain, and druids would respect that.

As for agriculture, a druid should allow ethical farming. A druid would also not stop a lone, desperate wolf from eating livestock unless it began to threaten the farmer's survival. Neutrality, not favouring humans over nature or vice versa.

[Naanomi]

I'm less concerned with what the druid will say about eating talking animals (I agree the vast majority would be supportive) compared to what Jill Schmoe, level 1 human commoner with Magic Initiate will say

[SharkForce]

I'm less concerned with what the druid will say about eating talking animals (I agree the vast majority would be supportive) compared to what Jill Schmoe, level 1 human commoner with Magic Initiate will say

well considering jill schmoe is probably getting that ability from magic initiate (druid), which rather implies that you're kinda like a partial druid yourself, probably about the same thing. unless that particular chicken is her friend, of course.

[Sigreid]

I'm less concerned with what the druid will say about eating talking animals (I agree the vast majority would be supportive) compared to what Jill Schmoe, level 1 human commoner with Magic Initiate will say

I just talked to Jill Schmoe. She says "YUMMMM!"

[Regitnui]

I'm less concerned with what the druid will say about eating talking animals (I agree the vast majority would be supportive) compared to what Jill Schmoe, level 1 human commoner with Magic Initiate will say

The reason people can be in such deep denial about things that they feed their cats vegan diets is not magic, but luxury. You find more of those Cloudcuckoolanders (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Cloudcuckoolander) in the middle to upper class of first-world countries, where they don't have reality staring them in the face. When the reality has envoys with magic and shapeshifting powers (druids) instead of normal people with placards (greenpeace) there's likely a lot less disassociation with nature even in the bigger cities.

[SharkForce]

in any event, considering the problematic duration of control over created undead, i would expect manual labour to be mostly replaced by rituals. i haven't got time just now to go through all rituals, but unseen servant would probably greatly reduce the need for unskilled or even semi-skilled labour when one skilled person can keep up to 6 unseen servants in action.

(although the culture where most people are undead might certainly have an easier time of employing skeletons and zombies. maybe.

[MinotaurWarrior]

wow great points, everyone. I realize "high fantasy" is ambiguous, so for this world suppose magic users are incredibly common. it's an arcane society. magical training, regardless of class, requires time and discipline but not cash. the masses (let's say about 3/4 of society) know cantrips and maybe a few tier 1 spells. the remaining quarter knows tier 2 or 3 spells, with a rare handful knowing tier 4 spells. this latter group is almost exclusively concerned with preventing the region from, say, collapsing into the fire plane. they're rarely around. there's obviously no one way this is going to go, but I'm liking the ideas so far.

At this level of magic, I'm uncertain agriculture would necessarily still exist, because you only need 1/10 of the population to know goodberry before bare sustenance becomes a joke. Food would still presumably be produced, but only as a luxury. People would hunt and have herb gardens and the like, but only in the same way they have libraries and incense.

With about 25% of the population potentially having suggestion and zone of truth, the basic way society works is now very different. Courts and marketplaces are vastly more trustworthy. The spellcasting middle class can ensure that their chosen workers are working their very best - workers that can perform minor magics every six seconds. For instance, the owner of a garden might compel his chosen servant to bloom 4,800 saffron flowers in a day, which that servant would then perfectly execute, while the lesser servants (who know something like acid splash) harvest it.

Those... let's call it 12.5% of the population with level 3 spells, the most revolutionary is really Glyph of Warding, because such a glyph is pretty much the only form of magical capital improvement you can make at this stage. So, for instance, it now takes 500GP to instal a revivification circle, 200 for a circle of lesser restoration or remove curse, et cetera. This is especially powerful for concentration effects. You might have a very expensive room where the village elder can summon an army of woodland beings to fight off invaders.

Those rare few with level 4 spells, I think their best use is Fabricate and Mordenkeinan's private sanctum. Lords live in castles of their own making, and own merchant fleets of their own making.

[Tanarii]

You might have a very expensive room where the village elder can summon an army of woodland beings to fight off invaders.Why wouldn't the army of woodland beings run rampant through the town killing villagers? Creatures summoned by glyphs aren't controlled by the triggering creature.

BTW, good post. 75% of the pop casting cantrips & level 1 spells (even just once per day for the latter), and 25% casting level 2-3 spells, is FAR beyond High Fantasy. The ramifications would be everywhere.

[Noodz]

As a simulationist, this thread is very much to my liking. Very good insights. Here are some more thoughts, but bear in mind, when it comes to gaming preferences i am very much a passionate simulationist proficient in quantitative tools, so this rabbit hole goes pretty deep:

MAGIC AS CURRENCY

From an economic perspective, magic is so incredibly versatile that it could be used as a medium of exchange in lieu of commodity money or fiat money, especially in regions of high magic availability. This would require a very strong central institution that regulates spellcasting both arcane and divine.

A way to make this "magic guild" work is to mandate that every single spell cast in the region where the guild has power must have as an additional material component a number of "magic tokens" that are consumed during the process of spellcasting. Spellcasters in good standing in the guild can acquire tokens by casting spells as a service to the Guild (of course this casting could be exempt from needing tokens). Since cantrips can be cast continuously, they would instead have a "permit" system: every cantrip user must have a magic permit, and this permit can be acquired for a certain time frame either for a number of magic tokens or by a number of hours of cantrip-casting to the Guild.

The above would allow magic tokens to be used as a currency, as these magic tokens can always be redeemed for either a spell or for a certain number of cantrip-hours in any registered spellcaster. Money supply would then be a major function for the Magic Guild, which can alter the rates (number of tokens per spell level) according to their monetary policy. It bears some semblance to the Bretton Woods system, for the entire system relies on the implied convertibility of magic tokens into effective spells.

Other bits and thoughts:

Do i even need to say that under this system, this centralized Magic Guild would have incredible political power?
Magic enforcement would be paramount for this work, as unregistered spellcasters would be considered a "magic black market".
The Guild governance would be the essence of politics, and there would be constant chafing among the several factions
Wizards and lawful churches are more likely to hold most of the power, as these institutions are the ones that can most effectively exploit their own members. Bards, druids, sorcerors and warlocks might be represented, but these classes are less likely to organize and would be less able to gain political power
In places where a faction is particularly strong, they might be willing to force their own agendas. For instance, a Guild where Wizards hold most power would have a vested interest in curtailing the rights of sorcerers in order to increase the importance of wizards. Or a church with many followers might be able to outlaw opposing churches, and maybe even outlaw certain types of magic (for instance, a very strong church of Amaunator might ban any kind of spell that creates undead).
In these worlds, expect magic education to be of paramount importance. Churches and Wizard organizations are likely to screen children of all backgrounds looking for potential spellcasters, and to provide full scholarship and benefits even to children with middling talent. The reason being, of course, that these organizations are eager to have new spellcasters among their ranks, especially as these young talents must provide years of service in return for their upbringing. And with spells like geas/quest, it's very easy to persuade even the most rebellious student into service.

INPUT OUTPUT ANALISYS APPLIED TO RPG ECONOMICS

If you think the above ideas are already pretty extreme, let me tell you something even cooler: Input-output analysis is an economic tool that models the interdependencies among several economic sectors and allows you to draw inferences on supply and demand of certain goods. A good Input Output model could be used not only to organically arrive at the resource allocation (and thus, an estimate of market prices) of different types of economical regions in D&D, but it could also be used to estimate just how "magical" a certain economy would be as a function of the number of spellcasters.

This approach would allow you to consider the great versatility of magic when creating an economy that has spells as actual goods. For instance, a region with low availability of magic would have an economy quite similar to low magic worlds, while a region with plentiful spellcasters would have spellcasters usually performing several daily tasks.

Unfortunately, i have neither time nor enough dedication to sit down and get this done. Math is not a major problem for me, but i have very little experience on actual economics, and thus would have to sit down and study this topic to make this work.

[Naanomi]

I think the 'you need this extra token to cast a spell' would be difficult to enforce... spellcasting is generally a very short endeavor, its not like an unsanctioned smithy or smuggled tools that leave a lot of evidence around; it seems like it would be very easy to be a 'blackmarket caster' in any sizable community.

[Noodz]

I think the 'you need this extra token to cast a spell' would be difficult to enforce... spellcasting is generally a very short endeavor, its not like an unsanctioned smithy or smuggled tools that leave a lot of evidence around; it seems like it would be very easy to be a 'blackmarket caster' in any sizable community.

It could be homebrewed as a mythal put in place by the Guild, where a spell cast without the proper tokens would activate an alarm. I was really focusing more on the concept that on necessarily making that work by RAW.

Obviously, the Guild would need to have a large number of high level casters ready to scry-and-die on any transgressors. And of course, if the transgressor proves more than the enforcers can chew, it might be granted an "exemption" (think of the Cowled Wizards of Baldurs Gate 2).

[Naanomi]

It could be homebrewed as a mythal put in place by the Guild, where a spell cast without the proper tokens would activate an alarm. I was really focusing more on the concept that on necessarily making that work by RAW.

Obviously, the Guild would need to have a large number of high level casters ready to scry-and-die on any transgressors. And of course, if the transgressor proves more than the enforcers can chew, it might be granted an "exemption" (think of the Cowled Wizards of Baldurs Gate 2).
So the most banned spell would be non-detection then? And Svirfneblin would be driven out of every city they are found in?

[Noodz]

So the most banned spell would be non-detection then?

Definitely, i see it being treated as driving with a radar jammer. Plus, it having a costly material component means you won't be using it to hide cantrip users.

But wow, in 3.5 there was a chance this would fail, now it just protects you for 8 hours. I still haven't fully familiarized myself with 5e.


And Svirfneblin would be driven out of every city they are found in?

I don't think there are many rpg worlds with vast populations of svirfneblin living in the surface. Depending on who's calling the shots they might be just driven out (evil places) or they are subject to additional regulation (good places).

The gist of my post though is about fluff. Getting these ideas implemented by the rules would need a bit of work.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Why wouldn't the army of woodland beings run rampant through the town killing villagers? Creatures summoned by glyphs aren't controlled by the triggering creature.


Alignment and disposition. These aren't demons. I mean, all of your shoes might get tied together, later, but their first priority is going to be surviving the orc onslaught themselves. Or, at least, I find that credible.


Though I should note that I messed up. Conjure animals is the 3rd level spell a baseline glyph caster might be capable of. Woodland beings is 4th level, and would be rarer.

[DragonSorcererX]

As a simulationist, this thread is very much to my liking. Very good insights. Here are some more thoughts, but bear in mind, when it comes to gaming preferences i am very much a passionate simulationist proficient in quantitative tools, so this rabbit hole goes pretty deep:

MAGIC AS CURRENCY

From an economic perspective, magic is so incredibly versatile that it could be used as a medium of exchange in lieu of commodity money or fiat money, especially in regions of high magic availability. This would require a very strong central institution that regulates spellcasting both arcane and divine.

A way to make this "magic guild" work is to mandate that every single spell cast in the region where the guild has power must have as an additional material component a number of "magic tokens" that are consumed during the process of spellcasting. Spellcasters in good standing in the guild can acquire tokens by casting spells as a service to the Guild (of course this casting could be exempt from needing tokens). Since cantrips can be cast continuously, they would instead have a "permit" system: every cantrip user must have a magic permit, and this permit can be acquired for a certain time frame either for a number of magic tokens or by a number of hours of cantrip-casting to the Guild.

The above would allow magic tokens to be used as a currency, as these magic tokens can always be redeemed for either a spell or for a certain number of cantrip-hours in any registered spellcaster. Money supply would then be a major function for the Magic Guild, which can alter the rates (number of tokens per spell level) according to their monetary policy. It bears some semblance to the Bretton Woods system, for the entire system relies on the implied convertibility of magic tokens into effective spells.

Other bits and thoughts:

Do i even need to say that under this system, this centralized Magic Guild would have incredible political power?
Magic enforcement would be paramount for this work, as unregistered spellcasters would be considered a "magic black market".
The Guild governance would be the essence of politics, and there would be constant chafing among the several factions
Wizards and lawful churches are more likely to hold most of the power, as these institutions are the ones that can most effectively exploit their own members. Bards, druids, sorcerors and warlocks might be represented, but these classes are less likely to organize and would be less able to gain political power
In places where a faction is particularly strong, they might be willing to force their own agendas. For instance, a Guild where Wizards hold most power would have a vested interest in curtailing the rights of sorcerers in order to increase the importance of wizards. Or a church with many followers might be able to outlaw opposing churches, and maybe even outlaw certain types of magic (for instance, a very strong church of Amaunator might ban any kind of spell that creates undead).
In these worlds, expect magic education to be of paramount importance. Churches and Wizard organizations are likely to screen children of all backgrounds looking for potential spellcasters, and to provide full scholarship and benefits even to children with middling talent. The reason being, of course, that these organizations are eager to have new spellcasters among their ranks, especially as these young talents must provide years of service in return for their upbringing. And with spells like geas/quest, it's very easy to persuade even the most rebellious student into service.


INPUT OUTPUT ANALISYS APPLIED TO RPG ECONOMICS

If you think the above ideas are already pretty extreme, let me tell you something even cooler: Input-output analysis is an economic tool that models the interdependencies among several economic sectors and allows you to draw inferences on supply and demand of certain goods. A good Input Output model could be used not only to organically arrive at the resource allocation (and thus, an estimate of market prices) of different types of economical regions in D&D, but it could also be used to estimate just how "magical" a certain economy would be as a function of the number of spellcasters.

This approach would allow you to consider the great versatility of magic when creating an economy that has spells as actual goods. For instance, a region with low availability of magic would have an economy quite similar to low magic worlds, while a region with plentiful spellcasters would have spellcasters usually performing several daily tasks.

Unfortunately, i have neither time nor enough dedication to sit down and get this done. Math is not a major problem for me, but i have very little experience on actual economics, and thus would have to sit down and study this topic to make this work.

Interesting and depressing realistic... and this depressive realism is what makes me hate anything+punk worlds, like the almost Cyberpunk world where we live...

[Tanarii]

Alignment and disposition. These aren't demons. I mean, all of your shoes might get tied together, later, but their first priority is going to be surviving the orc onslaught themselves. Or, at least, I find that credible. How do they know who the invaders are and who the villagers are. The original comment didn't say anything about orcs. (And assuming that woodland beings would see orcs as significantly less more "enemy" than humans when uncontrolled is a pretty huge assumption. I can see it if you're being very tolkein though.)

[SharkForce]

iirc, creatures summoned by glyphs of warding explicitly target whoever triggered the glyph. so you really don't want the village elder doing that :P

but what you could do is have, say, a banner with a glyph on it, which is normally covered up, is set to not trigger on villagers, and which you can raise up 10 feet (the maximum distance you can move a glyphed object). as i recall, the glyph can trigger when it is simply seen, which means that so long as you make sure no visitors inside the village are looking at it, you can still summon your small army of animals.

with that said, at 100 gp a shot (plus whatever the caster demands as payment), this is definitely not cheap.

[rlc]

You know, the funny thing with this whole example of food, and the theoretical reactions people are giving for opponents of magical foods, is that we are pretty much seeing this exact same thing in real life right now. Except instead of magic, its science. Genetically modified organisms. Thanks to science and technology, we have been able to greatly increase our crop yield through genetic modification. And these foods are not only perfectly healthy to eat, but in many cases, may contain important nutrients that non GMO versions do not. And yet, despite this, there is a large anti-GMO movement; large enough that companies will not only provide non GMO products, but use this fact in advertising to attract customers.

Now, of course, there is a lot more to the debate than just this, and I'm not trying to minimize to points of one side or the other. However, it its easy to see this as a good comparison to our magical food scenario. Even if there is in fact nothing wrong with magical food, a change to a magical food production society would require tons of changes, not all of them positive, and so there would absolutely be push back. Whether the reasons for the push back are real or based in falsehoods like some people above suggested, well, its hard to know for sure. But most likely, there would be some of both, just like we see in real life.

Although, technically, all domesticed organisms are genetically modified. Not in the way that scientists in a lab added some kind of hormone or something, but simply because it's not the wild version anymore.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,


As a simulationist, this thread is very much to my liking. Very good insights. Here are some more thoughts, but bear in mind, when it comes to gaming preferences i am very much a passionate simulationist proficient in quantitative tools, so this rabbit hole goes pretty deep:

MAGIC AS CURRENCY

From an economic perspective, magic is so incredibly versatile that it could be used as a medium of exchange in lieu of commodity money or fiat money, especially in regions of high magic availability. This would require a very strong central institution that regulates spellcasting both arcane and divine.


In D&D, the development of a single, central institution is extraordinarily unlikely.

* There isn't a single instance of the resource to be managed. In the real world, strong central authority arises earliest when tribal bands are insufficiently large to manage and distribute a critical resource. Think Egypt and the Nile, etc. In D&D, one person's access to magic does not create a shortage for someone else.

* Access to magic is possible and straightforward without the need for a larger organization to process or disseminate it. In the real world, if you want access, say, to (primitive) steel, you need trade routes to get iron and charcoal, these trade routes need to be protected, there needs to be sufficient stability for a blacksmith to set up shop, there needs to be a sufficient market, etc, all of which leads toward increased centralization of society, and perhaps guilds and regulations. Even so, there will be competition. But in D&D, anyone with a vaguely magical ancestor can get magic, or anyone who swears the right kind of oath, or has sufficient insight or insanity, or.... A wannabe wizard does not need a full university, either to learn or to practice magic; a cleric can join any podunk church; and so on.

* The market for magic cannot be fully regulated. In the real world, there is limited demand for various products, and a centralized authority can therefore regulate access, prices and quality. But dungeons are a Thing in D&D, and violence is profitable, so casters ignore markets that are too heavily regulated, which in turn undermines the regulating authority as supply goes down.

* The organizations likely to facilitate easier access to magic are often rivals or enemies. Both the Church of Badness to the Bone and the Church of the Two Shoes of Goodieness have access to the full range of clerical magic, and are not likely to cooperate. (For one thing, the CoBttB's first rule is Never Cooperate Except When You're Getting Ready to Backstab, and the CotTSoG demands that you Never Compromise with Evil.) Sorcerers don't need an organization, and Wizards often look down on Sorcerers, and Warlocks make everyone nervous, and although Bards have colleges, the College of Headbanging Orc Rockers is not likely to join the same organization as the Julliard School of Prissy Elvish Harpers. And then there are all those druids, some of which will fight for a centralized organization and some of whom will fight against it; balance, you know.

* No one is powerful enough to create such an organization. It would take a miracle to get this going, but high level clerics have access to those! Unfortunately, their rival clerics also have access to miracles. Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards also have access to Wish.

* All politics is local. Most guilds in the real world were local, not global or even 'national.' Rival cities and polities are likely to have rival organizations. So while it is possible that the Witch King of Angbad isn't going to allow rival casters in his city and will have the power to evict them (since he has the power to rule), he will need an army to evict them from the land next door.

In short, the multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-national, borderland environment of D&D makes the proposed scenario unlikely and unstable. Of course, various people will often *try* to create a single authority and will make some headway for a while, leading to adventures.

Anyway,

Ken

[Regitnui]

The reason Eberron has continent-crossing megacorps is because there's a House specifically dealing in communication; House Sivis uses speaking stones to send messages over miles. There's no reason a similar guild could not exist in other worlds.

[JackPhoenix]

Nothing says they can't put effort into both, just that any effort they put towards helping farmers is time they can't spend combatting the forces of elemental evil that threaten to destroy reality as they know it.

Funnily enough, Eberron does have druid sects that do just that. Gatekeepers keep extraplanar threats at bay, and are the oldest druidic sect. Wardens of the Wood are the general nature caretakers and include a lot of rangers, they are also the most prevalent and influential sect. Greensingers are hippies who frolic with fey and have bards in addition to druids, I think in 5e, they would also include Ancients paladins and feylocks. Ashbound are ecoterrorists who fight against pollution and animal testing arcane magic and too much civilisation in general, while the other "evil druid sect", Children of Winter, believe strongly in survival of the fittest and testing everyone's fitness through generous application of poisons, diseases and monsters with more legs than any decent creature should have like insects and arachnids. They also absolutely hate undead. There's another sect, though I don't remember them much and am too lazy to check Faiths of Eberron, they weren't mentioned in core book. Nightbringers, I think, and had something with negative energy.

Then there's House Vadalis which include some druidic magic in their business, Talenta halfling shamans, Valenar elves (notably, one theory says that their famous horses are descendants of druids cursed to stay in their horse wildshape form forever), and likely many others.

[Regitnui]

There's another sect, though I don't remember them much and am too lazy to check Faiths of Eberron, they weren't mentioned in core book. Nightbringers, I think, and had something with negative energy.

I think they're an extremist sect of the Children of Winter (any more that the CoW are already rather extreme) that try to actively spread the Gloaming, instead of just revering it.

[Temperjoke]

I'm sorry if it's been mentioned and I missed it, but one thing to consider is that some cantrips are more versatile than others, which means that they're more likely to be known by a wider group. Prestidigitation comes to mind, for example. Mending is another one that would be more common, especially among crafters. If I were going to make a High Fantasy world, I'd have the larger portion know simple ones like those, with the smaller general portion having the Magic Initiate type feat, and then an even smaller group, like maybe 1%, that goes beyond that, with an even smaller group getting beyond like level 5 maybe?

[Vaz]

A cubic foot of wheat is approximately 45-48 pounds, less if it's cracked. If purify is on the table, then wheat is probably divided into portions - one group to be mashed for purify (I bet there's a one-cubic-foot bucket and an apple-press like device designed to crush wheat into a neat cubic foot for spellcasting), another to be made into flour (casting purify on anything most likely makes it useless for fermentation and replanting, since it would indiscriminately eliminate even the natural flora inside wheat germ, and fermentation is like, half of our food; if purify is cast on food to preserve it regularly enough for it to be a logistics problem anyone worries about, your setting has likely never discovered cheese (any cheese), pickles, edible olives, salted ham, yogurt, butter, or, horror of horrors, alcohol - which I know seems strange, but there are lots of cultures here that never did because they either preserved food in other ways, or never had the opportunity to leave something out to rot and then need to eat it, and purify will eliminate that eventuality), and others to be made into other wheat products like beer and so on. Purified wheat is probably used as filler in other foods, the same way we use enriched food nowadays.

I would suspect that purify is used sparingly (for reasons stated above) and is simply one more tool in the food industry's arsenal. Fermentation, purification, salting, drying, grilling, and other preservation methods are used side-by-side.
l

If you're a cannibal, can you claim to Purify Food and Drink on the human body to remove poison and disease? Can you prevent preganacies by Purify Food and Water by getting rid of Parasites? Does it revert the onset of any aging process within meat, or turn cheese back into milk? Does it cure hangovers, or prevent the alcohol from making you drunk?

The answer to many of those is no, and yet they are logical extrapolations of your argument, so I disagree fundamentally with what you are suggesting would happen.

[Tanarii]

If you're a cannibal, can you claim to Purify Food and Drink on the human body to remove poison and disease? Can you prevent preganacies by Purify Food and Water by getting rid of Parasites? Does it revert the onset of any aging process within meat, or turn cheese back into milk? Does it cure hangovers, or prevent the alcohol from making you drunk?

The answer to many of those is no, and yet they are logical extrapolations of your argument, so I disagree fundamentally with what you are suggesting would happen.
Purify is basically pasteurization plus some. So he's pretty much right on the money.

Edit: I take that back. I think it would be used frequently by the food business, not sparingly. But as an end preservative before shipping to the customer. After all other preparation is done. If you're objecting to his conclusion, yeah, I agree. Just as we pasteurize anything and everything we can (including pretty much anything in a bottle, can, or jar), the magic food business would purify it.

[Vogonjeltz]

if everyone is only ever doing things that benefit *all* people, then basically nothing will get done.

frankly, i think a level 5 character is going to be hard pressed to find ways to impact a larger percentage of "all" than 2.5 million.

It's not everyone, just Druids. Nothing in the Druid description suggests they give a lick spittle about a particular society or farmers in general; instead they're listed as caring about elemental balance and hating the unnatural. Not to mention the unintended consequences of a Druid helping the means of production in a particular location over another would draw the ire of competition. Saboteurs burning crops, or hiring an unethical Druid to simply blight the land.


Nah, I'd imagine that he would just do it for the farmers of the township he most closely associated with, not wondering around town to town. So, 1-4 castings at most.

Druids don't usually closely associate with towns at all. From the descriptions most spellcasters in general avoid towns unless they have to go there (wizards live remotely to avoid distractions, warlocks and sorcerers are feared and shunned, clerics are rare, Druids are all about nature) the one exception might be bards who actively seek an audience.

[JackPhoenix]

"Dwarves are often blamed for starting the Great War, but really, it was inevitable. First problem was overpopulation caused by overabundance of food for everyone, dwarves who usualy have hard time with farming and other means of food production included. Dwarves are by nature hard working, lack of need for their services hid them hard, they now had large population with nothing to do, as crafted goods could be made faster and easier by mages (why would you wait month or more to get your armor when craftsmage can make you one in few minutes?), and even menial labor wasn't needed anymore thanks to industrial use of undead workers. On top of that, dwarves are greedy little bastards love gold, and gold both lost its value, and nobody was willing to pay for dwarven goods when items of similar quality were available faster without the need to pay the workers for days or weeks needed to make them. And so the dwarves begun to make weapon and armor once more, and their large, disatisfied and militant population turned their focus to warfare. With their traditional enemies like goblinoids and orcs exterminated, humans and elves were logical next target."

"However, humans should be grateful to dwarves. Their overpopulation problems were even worse than with the dwarves, and war served as effective population control. And while they don't have the need to work as dwarves do, idle humans with no source of income and no chance to find a work if they have no talent for magic themselves are even more trouble than dwarves. Everyone knows about the boom in the numbers and strength of various dangerous cults and organisations who eagerly offered a place for human masses. If the dwarves haven't started the War when they did, humanity would tear itself apart in civil conflict. Now, humans lacked military prowess of dwarves, and while they armed their undead workers with simple weapons and used them in war, skeleton is no match for armored hammerdwarf. Only thanks to their numbers the humans survived the dwarven onslaught. Too bad they couldn't stayed focused on each other."

"Only we elves were spared the troubles resulting from overuse of magic. With our long lifespan and lower birthrate, we avoided the worst overpopulation, and we have no problem with lack of menial things to do. An elf who doesn't have to spend his or her time working can relax or spend time in studies or creating works of art we are so famous for, whether it's poetry, songwriting or crafting incomparable works of beauty that takes decades to make perfect. The fact the dwarves and humans attacked us without provocation shows how foolish and agressive those lower races are."

-Some arrogant pointy-eared ****hole elven historian


Also, if you have undead labor, you would want the overseer to be undead too, if you can find a form that's intelligent, with no need to feed on the living and the lack of hatred towards them, for safety reasons. If mortal necromancer (who better not be actual necromancer wizard, that doesn't help in use of undead laborers and makes them harder to take down in case of inevitable loss of control) overseer oversleeps, fall ill, or come late to the job, the undead under his control are uncontrolled after more than 24 hours from the last casting, and there's no way to re-establish that control. They aren't aggressive against other undead, though, so if the overseers are undead themselves, one necromancer losing control over his "employees" can't lead to chain reaction where the now-uncontrolled skeletons or zombies kill another necromancer to create MORE uncontrolled undead, etc.. Also, undead overseer propably requires less payment.

[SharkForce]

again, undead labour is a horrible idea. unseen servant summoned with a ritual makes far more sense.

someone equivalent to a level 1 wizard for ritual spellcasting can create one unseen servant in just over 10 minutes. each servant lasts 1 hour. so with a 1-hour startup time, a ritual caster of *any* level can provide 6 unseen servants, which will not go on a murderous rampage under any circumstances (and indeed, are uncapable of doing so).

meanwhile, it takes a level 5 spellcasting equivalent to get *any* zombie or skeleton servants at all. that's a massive difference. as a level 5 character, that person can provide 9 undead servants, *if* they get the ability to recover spell slots equal to a wizard (which is typically not the case for NPCs... that would reduce the number to 5). if the caster has the necromancer ability of undead thralls, they could get up to 12 (or only 8 if they lack the arcane recovery feature).

but now you've got a level 5 wizard providing as much value as maybe a dozen untrained workers. you really think a level 5 wizard or equivalent is going to want to oversee farm hands for the rest of their life? and are people really going to accept the safety risk that if the wizard doesn't reassert control, the undead will start trying to kill everyone?

it is much more plausible that a bunch of moderately well-trained people will be willing to work for 5-6 times the salary of an untrained labourer, and it is equally much more plausible that society would be willing to use that form of labour (because "i'm not going to get murdered in my sleep by the hired help" is a fairly substantial advantage).

to be fair, that gets a lot more plausible in the undead-based society someone posted above... especially if you have some places where humans labour so that when turned into skeletons, in the absence of any living things to murder or orders to obey, they will default to doing what they were used to doing in mortality...

(to clarify the numbers on animate dead: a level 5 wizard has 2 level 3 spell slots and can recover one of those once per long rest. so on day 1, the wizard animates 3 minions. on day 2, one spell extends control on the 3, and the wizard creates 2 more. on day 3, the wizard controls 4 with the first spell, 1 with the second, and creates one more, until two spells are required to control the skeletons and one is required to create one more... and the wizard is then capped out, because all 3 spells must be used to control their 9 skeletons. if that wizard is a necromancer, they can target one extra pile of bones or corpse to animate per spell, but nothing says they can extend control over more, so they can get up to three full spells worth - ie 12 - because they can extend control over 4 and create one with each spell slot).

[raygun goth]

If you're a cannibal, can you claim to Purify Food and Drink on the human body to remove poison and disease?

I bet it would even prevent prion-based diseases. Good point. Reasons to add cannibalism to a culture for funzies, one.


Can you prevent pregnancies by Purify Food and Water by getting rid of Parasites?

A pregnant woman is not food or drink.


Does it revert the onset of any aging process within meat, or turn cheese back into milk?

It might, depending on the method of fermentation. I bet it removes the ammonia from hakarl and kills the maggots in casu marzu, for example. Specifically, it removes poisons and diseases and "purifies." Whatever that means.


Does it cure hangovers, or prevent the alcohol from making you drunk?

A person with a dehydration headache is not food or drink. Alcoholic drinks might be purified, though.


The answer to many of those is no, and yet they are logical extrapolations of your argument

No, they are not. My argument is simply that purify is another tool in the arsenal, and its overuse might result in a situation like the pre-contact Americas, where cheese, alcohol, and heavy fermentation processes were never developed. That is all.


, so I disagree fundamentally with what you are suggesting would happen.

Well, I disagree, but I respect your opinion.

[JackPhoenix]

A pregnant woman is not food or drink

"Says you"

-random man (or woman, in this case) eating monster

[LudicSavant]

"Says you"

-random man (or woman, in this case) eating monster

I mean, geez, for any given thing, you could probably find a creature in D&D that eats it. I rather doubt the intent is to allow it to remove poison and disease from a party member (or even a group of clustered up people) a la Lesser Restoration, for instance. So, where does a line get drawn?

To reinforce what Raygun Goth is saying, a great deal of spells differentiate whether they can or cannot target something based on whether they're living or "Creatures," which suggests that the difference is magically important somehow. As such, it seems fairly reasonable to assume that Purify Food and Drink cannot target living creatures, even though dragons might eat them sometimes.

[Regitnui]

As such, it seems fairly reasonable to assume that Purify Food and Drink cannot target living creatures, even though dragons might eat them sometimes.

So it prevents corpses from rotting, like gentle repose?

[Slayn82]

Purify food and drink on a corpse probably just removes the rotten parts, poisons and parasites, cleans wounds, but doesn't stop the process from resuming, unlike Gentle Repose. On the other hand, Gentle Repose probably is very good to keep fresh meat.

[LudicSavant]

The most sought after chefs may very well tend to be spellcasters. Besides Purify Food and Drink ensuring that wizard food is always safe to eat, and Shape Water giving access to refrigeration and various other culinary techniques... Prestidigitation allows access to the incredible power of flavoring. We take access to just about any flavor we want for granted nowadays, but it wasn't really like that throughout world history. Just think of all the politics over spices and the like.

It's not just people with actual caster classes. Feat humans and elves are often getting Prestidigitation and Shape Water too.

______________

I suspect that conventional disease would be of relatively small concern in many D&D worlds, due to the practical ramifications of a variety of powerful yet accessible effects.

1) Detect Poison and Disease means that the nature of disease is a fairly well-understood science (far moreso than a typical medieval society). It's level 1, a ritual (meaning a professional can cast it all day), and the effect is extremely potent and informative, surpassing modern medical science in various respects. You can detect Poison and Disease in any source (not just creatures) within 30 feet of you, for 10 minutes (which allows you to canvas a considerable area). Moreover, it accurately identifies the type of disease when it does so. This, combined with relatively easy access to cures for would-be investigators, makes studying and tracking epidemics a breeze. This spell's existence also means that quarantines can be considerably more open than in the real world; simply get checked, and you can go. It also means that you can catch incubators (Typhoid Marys and the like) easily.

It would only take a handful of people with access to this spell to make a big impact on world history, and it's a very accessible spell.

2) Purify Food and Drink is a level 1 ritual which cleanses about 3917 gallons (or 524 cubic feet) of food and drink of poison and disease per 10 minutes of casting (if you somehow managed to pack everything into 5-foot radius spheres). This can further reduce the incidence of disease. It also means that certain food sources become healthier than they are in the real world. For example, cannibalism would no longer cause prion-based diseases if the local shaman cast Purify Food and Drink on the corpses.

3) The cantrip Shape Water allows you to create large quantities of ice, anywhere in the world. Hello, refrigeration! This further decreases the incidence of disease, and broadens the available diet.

4) The rate of disease will be curbed, but when it does pop up, cures aren't that hard to get ahold of. Any first level paladin can cast Lay on Hands. Bards, Clerics, and Druids can all cast Lesser Restoration at only third level. Combined with the ability to catch incubators fairly easily, this means you can cut off a lot of potential plagues before they ever become a real danger. Note that according to the PHB, it only costs 10-50gp to get a common 1st or 2nd level spell cast. This means that preventing death via terminal illness is about the cost of a lute.

Instead, people are worrying about crazy things like vampirism, lycanthropy, or magical diseases (such as the sort suggested on pg56 of the DMG).

[Sigreid]

1) Detect Poison and Disease means that the nature of disease is a fairly well-understood science (far moreso than a typical medieval society). It's level 1, a ritual (meaning a professional can cast it all day), and the effect is extremely potent and informative, surpassing modern medical science in various respects. You can detect Poison and Disease in any source (not just creatures) within 30 feet of you, for 10 minutes (which allows you to canvas a considerable area). Moreover, it accurately identifies the type of disease when it does so. This, combined with relatively easy access to cures for would-be investigators, makes studying and tracking epidemics a breeze. This spell's existence also means that quarantines can be considerably more open than in the real world; simply get checked, and you can go. It also means that you can catch incubators (Typhoid Marys and the like) easily.


Not to mention you don't lose food tasters at an alarming rate.