Quick comparison

[The Ship's dog]

So I have been playing an Adventurer's League game and we've finished the campaign. One of the rewards for spending downtime at the end was being able to learn a single new spell at the level we can cast (using any spell-slots) from the Elemental Evil player's companion. I'm playing an Arcane Trickster Rogue, I'm at level 3 and so I only have access to level 1 spells or cantrips.

The spells I already have are:
Prestidigitation
Friends
Mage Hand

Sleep
Silent Image
Shield

I was debating whether to go for a cantrip, Ice Knife or Absorb Elements. I am planning to go for a ranged build and am going to swap Shield out for Find Familiar at level 5.

(I do realise that Sneak Attack does not trigger off of spells)

[Arelai]

You don't need any damage spells, so I guess I'd pick earth tremor as a just-in-case spell, or any one of the elemental control cantrips-those can be really useful.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Ice Knife is a really nice spell, but it's not so attractive to arcane tricksters. I also think Absorb Elements isn't really in your wheelhouse as a rogue.

This is a fairly unique opportunity to get access to a free spell that isn't enchantment or illusion... but frankly I think a cantrip is more valuable. The main restriction on cantrips is the number of them that you are able to pick, so this reward is a real boon. Frostbite and Gust are both pretty good. It can't hurt to have some diversity in damage (as a ranged rogue, almost all of your damage output is going to be piercing), and Gust allows you to use your casting stat for a 5' shove at will - a godsend if you don't have much Strength.

[Cespenar]

I've found in my Out of the Abyss campaign that Mold Earth can be an extremely useful cantrip. You can consider that, for one.

Also, I have no idea why you are considering swapping Shield. That's one of the best defensive spells ever.

[JellyPooga]

I am planning to go for a ranged build and am going to swap Shield out for Find Familiar at level 5.

I really hope you meant to say Sleep instead of Shield there. If not I highly recommend it as an alternative. Shield is a spell that will stand you in good stead for the duration of your career. Sleep is a spell I'm pretty sure you're already regretting you took in the first place; it's use for an AT is limited at best because you don't have the spell slots to keep up with the HP totals of the enemies you fight. The higher your level the less useful Sleep will be (and by level 5 it will be practically useless to you).

As to the matter at hand, Shape Water is a solid utility Cantrip and better than Mould Earth (note that the "excavate earth" function of the latter only works on "loose soil or earth"...that's a big limitation) or Gust (you have Mage Hand and there are better "shove" spells available). Control Flames is amusing but largely useless. You probably don't need a damage Cantrip, which rules out Frostbite.

None of the 1st level spells strike me as being that useful for a range-focused Rogue. Absorb Elements is more fun for a melee build. Surrounding your position with difficult terrain via Earth Tremor just sounds like a bad idea (always have an escape route). Ice Knife is of debatable use to a full-caster; for you it's a complete waste of time. Catapult? Just no.

I'd go for Shape Water. It's a great spell to get creative with and all you need is some water which everyone is, in theory, carrying (even if they never do actually say where they're filling their waterskins).

[Ninja_Prawn]

I really hope you meant to say Sleep instead of Shield there.

That wouldn't be legal for an AT. Sleep is an enchantment, while Shield is an abjuration and Find Familiar a conjuration. The AT can only have one out of Shield or Find Familiar - and between high Dexterity, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, a rogue has enough defense that Shield may feel unnecessary. A ranged rogue shouldn't be taking too many attacks anyway; it's not their role. Find Familiar, on the other hand, makes a lot of sense.

It's probably worth waiting until level 7 before you trade out Sleep; the second-level enchantments and illusions are much juicier.

[JellyPooga]

That wouldn't be legal for an AT.

True. I missed that. By a strict reading of the AT Spells Known, however, the non-illusion/enchantment spell you take at 3rd level (if any) can only be replaced by an illusion or enchantment spell (oddly enough).



...The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an enchantment or illusion spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 8th, 14th or 20th level.

No mention of 3rd level. Looks like the OP is stuck with Shield!

I still think Sleep is a bad choice for an AT; even against the likes of Orcs and Gnolls you'll be lucky to affect two opponents, let alone against anything CR:1 or higher. Sleep is a great spell at level 1 for a Wizard or Bard, but by level 3 it simply doesn't pull it's weight unless you're still facing mass mobs of Goblins and Kobolds on a regular basis. With their limited spells known, an AT can't really afford to have a situational spell like that on their list for too long and trying to stretch it past level 5 is definitely too long.

[Ninja_Prawn]

trying to stretch it past level 5 is definitely too long.

I don't disagree, it's just that there isn't anything spectacular to replace it with until level 7 (for an AT). I mean, Tasha's Hideous Laughter is an option if you've got decent Int, but it's not that much better.

[JellyPooga]

I don't disagree, it's just that there isn't anything spectacular to replace it with until level 7 (for an AT). I mean, Tasha's Hideous Laughter is an option if you've got decent Int, but it's not that much better.

I'll concede that the pickings are indeed slim for 1st level enchantment/illusion Wizard spells once you've got Silent Image and Sleep does have it's uses for taking down foes that have taken some damage already (e.g. if you're in a fight with a badly damaged Ogre, it's just about to squish the Wizard and you don't want to take the chance of missing, Sleep might do the trick as a "fail-safe").

[xyianth]

Err... you don't have minor illusion? Go get that right now. Best cantrip in the game.

[JellyPooga]

Err... you don't have minor illusion? Go get that right now. Best cantrip in the game.

Good? Yes. Overrated? Probably. GM-proof? Certainly not.

It's really only as good as your GM allows it to be (which can be said for anything, I suppose, but it applies double for the likes of Minor Illusion, Silent Image, etc.), potentially making other options more reliable.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Good? Yes. Overrated? Probably. GM-proof? Certainly not.

It's really only as good as your GM allows it to be (which can be said for anything, I suppose, but it applies double for the likes of Minor Illusion, Silent Image, etc.), potentially making other options more reliable.

Plus the OP is only allowed to pick from EE spells for this bonus reward.

[JellyPooga]

Plus the OP is only allowed to pick from EE spells for this bonus reward.

Heh. That too!

[Specter]

Frostbite is a good choice.

You shouldn't be using it instead of your regular attacks, of course, but there will always be times when the enemy imposes disadvantage on your attack, or they can't be sneak attacked (2d6 can be as good as 1d6+dex), or they're resistant to weapon damage, or they're vulnerable to cold, or you have no equipment. For these situations, Frostbite is there for you.

[The Ship's dog]

So this was going to be my spell progression from 3-5 but now there are problems with it.

Cantrips known
Mage Hand
Prestidigitation
Friends

Level 3
Silent image
Sleep
Shield

Level 4
Silent image
Sleep
Shield
Disguise self

Level 5
Silent image
Sleep
Find Familiar
Disguise self

Seeing as (really weirdly) I can't swap out Shield for Find Familiar, I guess I'm stuck with Shield. The reason why I haven't gone for things like Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Charm Person, is because my character's Int is only 14 so my spell save DC is always going to be sub-par.

I know it's AL so I can change around my Ability Scores, But I'm planning to multiclass as a Bard after level 5 Rogue (final levels will be Rogue (AT) 9/Bard (Lore) 6) and I have 16 Cha and so I was going to get a bunch of aggressive Enchantment spells as Bard spells so my spell save DC is only average, rather than mediocre, for things like that.

Seeing as this is the case, I don't really have much choice in spells. I agree that Sleep should be swapped out at the very least by level 7, but before level 7, I still only have access to level 1 Wizard spells from the Enchantment or Illusion schools.

I guess I would swap it out for Colour Spray as that (other than Illusory Script which, frankly, is every hard not only to find a way to use it but also is pretty useless even then) is the only level 1 Wizard spell from the aforesaid schools that don't force a save onto the enemy.

At level 7 I am definitely going to swap out my choice of either for Invisibility because that is when I get level 2 spell slots.

Finally, I have to say one thing.

Fluff, story, character, themes and such-like are very important to me when building characters. I'm even iffy about taking Colour Spray instead of Sleep as, when my character is sneaking through the enemy's camp or palace, what is going to be more likely to raise the alarm; a guard falling asleep at his post, or a blinding display of flashing light that, in the long run, doesn't even incapacitate the guard in question?

In quite a lot of cases, I won't be using Sleep in combat as it's out of combat utility is vast when talking about a sneaky thief-type character that uses spells to their advantage.

This is also why, for example, my character is not going to be a Warlock because literally having your soul bound to an other-worldly entity is too high a price to pay for power. Being tied down for eternity is a bad idea to my character, especially since quite a lot of Warlock's go insane. Also, not going to be a fighter as that requires you to get formal weapons training and my character hates being taught how to do things as she is all about learning from her own experience.

Anyway, this is a thread specifically about Arcane Trickster spells, not multiclassing or using other Archetypes so really, don't bring it up. I have only brought it up because I felt like I needed to explain why I was going to do certain things with my character and to stop anyone from going off of topic with multiclassing or things.

[Addaran]

Personally, i love Absorb Elements. (well in theory, haven't played a caster since EE was out).

It's great to survive those con save aoe or when you're unlucky and fail that dex save against a dragon's breath. And it's outside enchantement/illusion so it's not something you'd get normaly.

[JellyPooga]

I wouldn't get too hung up on having "only" Int 14. That's still decent enough to throw out some Save-or-Sucks. At level 3 you've got a Spell Save DC:12; which gives you better than a 50/50 chance of getting a given spell to stick against most foes you're likely to encounter.

Having said that, however, I can see how Sleep fits in with your character; there's a world of difference between causing a sentry to drop off at his post and making him burst out with a fit of the giggles! If that sort of thing is the primary use you want out of it, then I'd almost be tempted to say hold on to it! It doesn't scale brilliantly, as I've said, but against a single-target NPC Guard in a city, or the like, you've probably got a decent enough shot at using it up into the mid-levels.

[The Ship's dog]

@JellyPooga
Thanks for understanding about the Sleep spell as really I didn't intend on using it much at all in combat.

So these are the options I'm most likely going to choose
1. Frostbite (for those times when I really have nothing left)
2. Gust
3. Control Flames/Mold Earth
4. Shape Water

I can see the benefits of Control Flames(who doesn't like intimidating people with shapes in the fire?) and Mold Earth (yay for difficult terrain), but really, what use is Shape Water apart from freezing 5 feet of water?

[JellyPooga]

@JellyPooga
Thanks for understanding about the Sleep spell as really I didn't intend on using it much at all in combat.

So these are the options I'm most likely going to choose
1. Frostbite (for those times when I really have nothing left)
2. Gust
3. Control Flames/Mold Earth
4. Shape Water

I can see the benefits of Control Flames(who doesn't like intimidating people with shapes in the fire?) and Mold Earth (yay for difficult terrain), but really, what use is Shape Water apart from freezing 5 feet of water?

Shape Water is a great spell for creative uses;

- Need to get water to someone but don't have a bucket? Freeze it and carry it.
- Got a lock problem? Cast once to fill the lock. Cast again to freeze it. Pop! One broken lock. (The same method can be used to break rocks, walls, etc.)
- Wow the peasant folk with water...that flows uphill!
- Simple shapes and animate? How about a nice arrow or spear? Freeze it, throw it...one dead guard!

Unlike the required materials for Mould Earth or Control Flames, you will almost always have access to water and the "simple shape + freeze" trick gives you a lot of options for makeshift tools/weapons/destruction. It's not much of a combat cantrip, but it's applications are much further reaching IMO.

[The Ship's dog]

Shape Water is a great spell for creative uses;

- Need to get water to someone but don't have a bucket? Freeze it and carry it.
- Got a lock problem? Cast once to fill the lock. Cast again to freeze it. Pop! One broken lock. (The same method can be used to break rocks, walls, etc.)
- Wow the peasant folk with water...that flows uphill!
- Simple shapes and animate? How about a nice arrow or spear? Freeze it, throw it...one dead guard!

Unlike the required materials for Mould Earth or Control Flames, you will almost always have access to water and the "simple shape + freeze" trick gives you a lot of options for makeshift tools/weapons/destruction. It's not much of a combat cantrip, but it's applications are much further reaching IMO.

Hm, I didn't think of those things (although unfortunately a frozen arrow wouldn't work as it would shatter when you fired it). Isn't the internet a great thing?

[xyianth]

- Got a lock problem? Cast once to fill the lock. Cast again to freeze it. Pop! One broken lock. (The same method can be used to break rocks, walls, etc.)

Only if it is a really complex or shoddily made lock. Water does expand when frozen, but not with enough pressure to damage an iron lock that isn't air/water tight. At best it will bend the weakest part of the lock slightly. Not to mention that you are starting to use physics to argue for the capabilities of a magical spell in a fantasy world. That is a slippery slope that should be avoided at all costs.


- Simple shapes and animate? How about a nice arrow or spear? Freeze it, throw it...one dead guard!

Only if the guard dies from a 1d8 attack (being generous and using equivalent die size despite it being an improvised weapon) that you are likely not proficient with. You probably have better options to make a dead guard.


Unlike the required materials for Mould Earth or Control Flames, you will almost always have access to water and the "simple shape + freeze" trick gives you a lot of options for makeshift tools/weapons/destruction. It's not much of a combat cantrip, but it's applications are much further reaching IMO.

The required material for mold earth is... umm... earth. I am fairly sure that is pretty common. Control flames requires fire. I've never met an adventurer past level 1 that couldn't produce some form of fire. Bunch of latent pyromaniacs, the lot of 'em.

Creating a frozen simulcrum of an object is certainly useful, but most of the objects you need in a pinch can be created with prestidigitation. And unlike the shape water cantrip, prestidigitation makes a real object. (for 6 seconds) Ice may not be durable enough for the job. I know I just said arguing physics is a bad idea, just saying that ice isn't exactly known for its durability. (excepting of course the high pressure ices that I am fairly sure are beyond a cantrip's ability to produce.)

Personally, I've found mold earth to be far more useful in practice. The ability to rapidly make tunnels/holes is one of those tricks that seems like it would rarely be needed, right up until you can do it freely; then the number of situations where you find a way to use it skyrockets. Of the four elemental cantrips, I'd rank them: mold earth > shape water > gust > control flames in terms of usefulness. (most -> least)

[XmonkTad]

I would second the idea of grabbing one of the elemental cantrips. They just have so much utility. While having an int of 14 isn't a huge deal-breaker for picking up magic stone or ice knife, I'd say that you don't really need a spell that does damage anyway. They don't get sneak attack, so they're pretty "meh" for you anyway.

[JellyPooga]

Personally, I've found mold earth to be far more useful in practice.

Then you've had a far more generous GM than I!

The only use of Mould Earth, beyond being able to dig a firepit for setting up camps really quickly, I ever got was the "difficult terrain" thing...and that ain't exactly Wall of Stone :smallamused:

Bear in mind that the "excavation" only applies to loose soil and earth. Most interior floors are stone or wood, even if it's only a thin layer it still prevents Mould Earth, which requires LoS. Even outdoors, city streets can be paved or cobbled. The only regular use you'll get from Mould Earth is in a wilderness campaign and even then the tendency for such campaigns to have (functionally) unlimited space makes digging a 5ft hole...of limited use without significant prep.

You're absolutely right about the limitations of ice and the danger of invoving physics and magic, but I still maintain that it's the best EE utility cantrip. For makeshift tools, Prestidigitation[/] is pretty useless; at least an ice tool lasts an hour and can be whatever dimensions you need (as long as it's volume doesn't exceed 25ft3).

Even just as a lump of ice, a 5ft cube weighs 1435lb (ish)...that's a big lump of ice and a lot of weight. Loose earth is pretty useless once it's out of the ground (it tends to collapse), whereas ice, being solid, can be used for all sorts of things; a "step up", counterweight, ammunition for a mangonnel (anti-personnel round!), sled, battering ram...the list goes on.

Of course sourcing [i]that much water would be problematic without a river or something. Given such a water source and enough time, though, Shape Water can even build a bridge (so could Mould Earth, I guess, but loose soil isn't great "bridge" material).

[The Ship's dog]

I would second the idea of grabbing one of the elemental cantrips. They just have so much utility. While having an int of 14 isn't a huge deal-breaker for picking up magic stone or ice knife, I'd say that you don't really need a spell that does damage anyway. They don't get sneak attack, so they're pretty "meh" for you anyway.

Well, technically Magic Stone does apply Sneak Attack damage but it is still worse than a bow and arrow or a shortsword.

To everyone, what is wrong with Gust? Sure it doesn't have the large range of utility as the other elemental cantrips, but being able to shove someone else 5 feet away from you is quite useful when they don't make the save, especially for someone squishy. You can also whip up dust and obscure the vision of attackers or use it to carry a few more lungfuls of air with you underwater in the form of a bubble so you can last for longer.

[Vogonjeltz]

No mention of 3rd level. Looks like the OP is stuck with Shield!

Did you check the errata and Sage Advice?

I ask because I'm nearly certain one of those corrected that oversight.

[JellyPooga]

Did you check the errata and Sage Advice?

I ask because I'm nearly certain one of those corrected that oversight.

I haven't checked, no and you're probably right that it may well have been addressed. It was just something I noticed while looking up AT for this thread.

[The Ship's dog]

I haven't checked, no and you're probably right that it may well have been addressed. It was just something I noticed while looking up AT for this thread.

I have checked the Sage Advice compendium and there's nothing about it in there and, whilst I may not have looked at all of the eratta for 5e, I couldn't find anything about AT in the ones that I found either. I have to say, either there isn't much 5e eratta or it is very dis-organised.

[Vogonjeltz]

I have checked the Sage Advice compendium and there's nothing about it in there and, whilst I may not have looked at all of the eratta for 5e, I couldn't find anything about AT in the ones that I found either. I have to say, either there isn't much 5e eratta or it is very dis-organised.

You're right, the errata I recalled was for the Eldritch Knight:

"Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher (p. 75). The nal sentence ends as follows: “... unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic” (6th printing)."

Still I can't imagine this wasn't an oversight for the AT as well. I'll check and see if Crawford mentions it on Twitter.

[The Ship's dog]

You're right, the errata I recalled was for the Eldritch Knight:

"Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher (p. 75). The nal sentence ends as follows: “... unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic” (6th printing)."

Still I can't imagine this wasn't an oversight for the AT as well. I'll check and see if Crawford mentions it on Twitter.

I'll start emailing the Sage Advice people just in case it comes up in the next column.

Btw, thanks to everyone for replying, mostly all of you have been helpful.

[Gignere]

The EK ruling should apply to AT as well. Swap out that shield for Find Familiar.

[coredump]

So I have been playing an Adventurer's League game and we've finished the campaign. One of the rewards for spending downtime at the end was being able to learn a single new spell at the level we can cast (using any spell-slots) from the Elemental Evil player's companion. I'm playing an Arcane Trickster Rogue, I'm at level 3 and so I only have access to level 1 spells or cantrips.

This doesn't quite sound right..... what do you mean the 'campaign' was finished?
What adventure were you playing that gave this as a reward?

I don't recall any that allow this, but I don't have them all memorized....

[The Ship's dog]

This doesn't quite sound right..... what do you mean the 'campaign' was finished?
What adventure were you playing that gave this as a reward?

I don't recall any that allow this, but I don't have them all memorized....

Sorry, it was a single adventure, my bad. I'm not sure of the adventure name but there is another session in 2 days time and I'll be sure to let you know afterwards.

Also, the adventure gave us 5 downtime days and the option of using those downtime days to help translate some magical texts. If we used those days to do that then we would get an extra spell at the level that we can cast from the Elemental Evil Player's Companion.

[Contrast]

Sorry, it was a single adventure, my bad. I'm not sure of the adventure name but there is another session in 2 days time and I'll be sure to let you know afterwards.

Also, the adventure gave us 5 downtime days and the option of using those downtime days to help translate some magical texts. If we used those days to do that then we would get an extra spell at the level that we can cast from the Elemental Evil Player's Companion.

Are you 100% sure that wasn't for wizards (who have a feature that lets them scribe scrolls from magical texts into their spellbook given the time/money) only?

[coredump]

Sorry, it was a single adventure, my bad. I'm not sure of the adventure name but there is another session in 2 days time and I'll be sure to let you know afterwards.

Also, the adventure gave us 5 downtime days and the option of using those downtime days to help translate some magical texts. If we used those days to do that then we would get an extra spell at the level that we can cast from the Elemental Evil Player's Companion.

Hmmm....
I have gone back and rechecked the Season 2 (EE) adventures, and don't see anything that would match your experience. Only 1-2 adventures give 5 DtD, and they don't allow for gaining a new spell in exchange of DtD.
One adventure lets you spend DtD on various quests....but their rewards are more like "gain advantage on next persuasion check against Water Cultists" etc
A different adventure allows folks to *copy* a number of spells....but that only helps those with spellbooks.

So..... it appears your DM is not running things quite AL legal. Either because he doesn't understand, or doesn't care. How (or if) you deal with this can be a tricky situation depending on the DM.
-If you are only ever going to play at that FLGS, it doesn't matter as much whether you are playing 'AL legal' or 'FLGS homebrew'.
-If you plan on ever heading to conventions or other stores, you may want to be a bit more careful about following the rules. In this case, it would just be a matter of not taking advantage of the spell offer.
-Its up to you if or how you approach the DM or Store coordinator. We can give advice if you want it.


While I would bet money against it... I suppose its possible this was legal and I just missed it. If you get the adventure name or number, I can verify for certain.

[XmonkTad]

To everyone, what is wrong with Gust?

Gust is definitely lacking in its options. One is basically just "spell shove", the next is worse than mage hand, and the third probably doesn't have any actual utility. By my reading, you wouldn't be able to "bring air with you" underwater. It just seems like a worse druidcraft.

[Addaran]

Gust is definitely lacking in its options. One is basically just "spell shove", the next is worse than mage hand, and the third probably doesn't have any actual utility. By my reading, you wouldn't be able to "bring air with you" underwater. It just seems like a worse druidcraft.

Yeah, Gust is pretty bad. You can't choose to trip instead of shoving, unlike the martial action. It's only 5ft while most spells do at least 10 fts. And there's a saving throw, which repelling blast doesn't have.

[The Ship's dog]

Yeah, I've realised that Gust didn't work the way I thought it would unfortunately so that's crossed off of my list.