Fire Elemental in water

[Tiri]

As the title says, is there any way to allow a Fire Elemental to enter water?

[DrMotives]

Not sure if explicitly allowed by the rules, but the "Airy Water" spell would work perfectly for this.

[Flickerdart]

Enclose the elemental in some sort of shell, whether physical (a water-proof container) or magical (telekinetic sphere).

[Deepbluediver]

I would imagine that submerging a fire elemental in water would go over about as well as submerging a human in strong acid- and I'm talking about the fantasy kind of acid that will dissolve an entire body in a few seconds.

About the only way I can think of to protect the fire element would be to completely keep it from coming intact with the water, either via a container or depending on the nature of your elementals, some kind of full-body suit.

Of course in a high-magic world, any kind of spell or magic item might do the trick, either by sever the same function as the suit or by transmuting the elemental's nature.

[Flickerdart]

I would imagine that submerging a fire elemental in water would go over about as well as submerging a human in strong acid- and I'm talking about the fantasy kind of acid that will dissolve an entire body in a few seconds.

The actual rule is "A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it."

[Deophaun]

Enclose the elemental in some sort of shell, whether physical (a water-proof container) or magical (telekinetic sphere).
Unnecessary. The Leidenfrost effect does that for it.

[Flickerdart]

Unnecessary. The Leidenfrost effect does that for it.
I don't know what that is, I'm not really into Pokemon (https://xkcd.com/178/).

More seriously, physics are completely irrelevant to magical beings made of animate fire.

[Deepbluediver]

The actual rule is "A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it."
I didn't know that, but what happens if you try to force a fire elemental into water? For example, suppose we stick one in a heavy cage and throw the cage in the water, then what happens? How many pounds of downward pressure (buoyancy?) can the fire-elemental exert to keep itself from getting wet?

[RedMage125]

And you cannot summon an elemental into a body of water, either, any more than you can summon a celestial/fiendish shark onto dry land.

[Tiri]

Does anyone have any ideas for a watertight covering that could allow the elemental to move around independently in the water? I can't seem to find anything like that. Preferably supported with actual mechanics.

[Deepbluediver]

Does anyone have any ideas for a watertight covering that could allow the elemental to move around independently in the water? I can't seem to find anything like that. Preferably supported with actual mechanics.
It all comes down to how Fire elementals interact with other physical substances in your dimension. Are they solid? Semi-solid? Intangible? I don't know if that was ever laid out anywhere, at least not in 3.5.
If you want some sort of suit, then it has to be waterproof on the outside and inflammable on the inside, and if a lack of oxygen will "extinguish" a fire elemental then it's going to need an airtank as well.

I can't think of anything like that offhand, but a clever player with the right spells could probably cobble together some sort of submersible vehicle, like a mini-sub, to haul the fire-elemental around in.

[Fouredged Sword]

Does anyone have any ideas for a watertight covering that could allow the elemental to move around independently in the water? I can't seem to find anything like that. Preferably supported with actual mechanics.

A red dragonskin waterskin? Size it for a colossal creature to fit a medium fire elemental. It is both air tight and fireproof.

Or just throw the sucker into a bag of holding. It doesn't need to breathe so can store there no problem.

[Milo v3]

It all comes down to how Fire elementals interact with other physical substances in your dimension. Are they solid? Semi-solid? Intangible? I don't know if that was ever laid out anywhere, at least not in 3.5.
In 3e/3.5e/PF we know they are solid because creatures are solid by default until you add in abilities like amorphous or incorporeality.

[duboisjf]

In PF maybe a GM would allow Life-bubble (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/life-bubble) to do that

[Mr Adventurer]

Likewise we know that fire elementals are tangible and weigh between 1 and 12 pounds.

Presumably they are eternally-burning gas, like a real flame.

[barakaka]

Monster Manual 3, you're looking for a Siege Crab. It's a gargantuan crab with a forcefield around it, and a compartment in its underbelly to store passengers or cargo. This is exactly what you're looking for to get a fire elemental underwater and simultaneously lay waste to populaces.

[Eisfalken]

You can make a fire elemental ethereal to move through the water, but they aren't actually "in" it, they are ethereal.

Teleportation effects to try and force it into the midst of a body of water are interesting; my interpretation is that they get "shunted" as per the specific spell/effect to the nearest open space, but I don't have any clue if this is strictly RAW or just the best way to interpret it.

The main issue here is that water isn't a "damaging trait" of the Material Plane to a fire elemental, it is an actual barrier according to the rules. But it's unclear if we treat it as we would a solid barrier for various effects or whatever.

[Aeson]

If you want some sort of suit, then it has to be waterproof on the outside and inflammable on the inside, and if a lack of oxygen will "extinguish" a fire elemental then it's going to need an airtank as well.
Putting a fire elemental inside an inflammable suit to protect it from water will probably not work out very well unless the water on the outer surface of the suit can cool the suit rapidly enough to prevent it from hitting its ignition point despite the fire elemental inside.


How many pounds of downward pressure (buoyancy?) can the fire-elemental exert to keep itself from getting wet?
If you model a fire elemental as a sphere with a diameter equal to its listed height and assume that its actual mass is (listed weight)/1g + mass of air displaced, then the density of a fire elemental would range from about 0.1 lb/ft3 for a Small Fire Elemental to about 0.075 lb/ft3 for an Elder Fire Elemental. If you model a fire elemental as a humanoid with a volume equal to the volume of a human scaled by the cube of the height ratio, assume that a human is 5'10" tall and has a volume of 3 cubic feet, and assume that the fire elemental's actual mass is (listed weight)/1g + mass of air displaced, then the density of a fire elemental would range from about 1.1 lb/ft3 for a Small Fire Elemental to about 0.087 lb/ft3. If you assume that the listed weight of the fire elemental is simply its mass multiplied by one standard gravity, then the density of a fire elemental would range from about 0.030 lb/ft3 for a Small Fire Elemental to 0.00036 lb/ft3 for an Elder Fire Elemental under the spherical model and from about 1.0 lb/ft3 for a Small Fire Elemental to 0.012 lb/ft3 for an Elder Fire Elemental under the humanoid model.

To give these numbers some context, air is about 0.075 lb/ft3, freshwater is about 62.4 lb/ft3, and salt water is about 64 lb/ft3. If it was permitted by the rules, a Fire Elemental could very easily float across the surface of the water with only an insignificant portion of its volume being submerged, going by these numbers. At some of the densities given above, Fire Elementals should either be floating up in the sky or be in effect a component gas in the air which for some reason has a limit on the volume it can occupy which is unrelated to environmental factors.

The short answer to the question of "how much force would a fire elemental need to exert to keep itself above water" is "practically none at all" and the short answer to "how much force would need to be exerted on a fire elemental to submerge it" is "at least ~60 times its weight," at least going by the above numbers.

[daremetoidareyo]

Distracting ember from tome of battle might be a way to get a fire elemental in water. Extend supernatural ability to make it last 2 rounds. Aquatic shot+rock hurling+fling ally to throw it through the water...

[Deepbluediver]

Putting a fire elemental inside an inflammable suit to protect it from water will probably not work out very well unless the water on the outer surface of the suit can cool the suit rapidly enough to prevent it from hitting its ignition point despite the fire elemental inside.
Haven't you ever seen the trick where we boil water in a paper cup?
Since you were kind enough to provide a detailed answer that I never expected :smallbiggrin: maybe next you con postulate on how hot a fire elemental burns.

[Mr Adventurer]

Monster Manual 3, you're looking for a Siege Crab. It's a gargantuan crab with a forcefield around it, and a compartment in its underbelly to store passengers or cargo. This is exactly what you're looking for to get a fire elemental underwater and simultaneously lay waste to populaces.

To be fair, this is a solution to a LOT of problems! :D

[Allanimal]

Does anyone have any ideas for a watertight covering that could allow the elemental to move around independently in the water? I can't seem to find anything like that. Preferably supported with actual mechanics.

As long as the water is 900 feet deep or less, the Apparatus of the Crab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#apparatusoftheCrab) would be perfect.