Serious Evil PC Help Requested

[Falcos]

Hi all!

So I have a bit of a problem. One of my players has decided that they want to be Evil, and I allowed it. Figured, "What the heck", right?

So he starts asking about having a Nightmare. I talk about the spells to call Nightmares and suchlike - but he baulks.

So I start talking about how they're made - torturing and de-winging a Pegasus.

One thing leads to another, and I now find myself needing to stat for him a Nightmare foal.

I have no idea where to even start. Any input from the Playground, please? :)

[Pleh]

I assume you mean Torturing lead to De-Winging?

How young is the foal? Is it just a baby or is it a few months from adulthood?

I might tentatively recommend just taking a couple of HD off of the standard Nightmare stats (using the typical rules for Advancing HD in reverse). I would make sure the creature is going to need to be cared for and nurtured to bring it up to its full potential. It doesn't get all the Nightmare toys and goodies overnight just because it's gone through the rituals.

[Falcos]

He's talking "Just got its wings" - I don't know if there's a set age that happens for pegasi.

Are there specific rules for advancing HD in reverse, or do you just mean reversing the rules on advancing HD?

(Yes, I do mean torturing leading to de-winging)

[Pleh]

I am not aware of rules for reversing HD. I just meant using the rules for advancing HD in reverse.

I should mention I've never actually tried doing this, but then again, most people haven't actually tried what this guy tried to do.

In my game, I probably would have required him to get help from a devil to make this actually work, since just torturing and dewinging alone probably would just mutilate the body. You need a little infernal magic to transform something like that.

[Geddy2112]

In my game, I probably would have required him to get help from a devil to make this actually work, since just torturing and dewinging alone probably would just mutilate the body. You need a little infernal magic to transform something like that.

I agree here. A nightmare is an evil outsider-sure it was created by ripping a Pegasus apart, but you gotta have more than that to just chop shop a horse with wings. Making it into an evil outsider is gonna be some magical juju.

Normally, you would need to call/bind an outsider to your service. However, your PC shows interest in putting in the know how and elbow grease. In lieu of knowing the spell to call an outsider, or the evil to make a pegasus into a nightmare, let his hard work mutilating it count as everything but an XP/GP cost, which represents him putting his actual evils into the act and the materials required to infuse the horse with the power of hell. In return for having a DIY job, the nightmare remains as a mount for your PC either stock, or being a mount of the appropriate level.

[Segev]

Let's step back from hypothesizing about whether there are unwritten requirements, and ask a more important question, first:

Do you want him to have a Nightmare, and what powers from the Nightmare are you comfortable with his pet having? Recognize that he IS going to push for it to age to adulthood, so be ready to determine, too, if you're comfortable with allowing that.

If you're okay with some (or all) of a Nightmare's powers being accessible to this PC, then design the foal to have those powers with which you're comfortable. Cut its HD down. Make it a size category smaller (so Medium). That last will control who can ride it, if anybody.

If you're not okay with a full-fledged Nightmare, don't let it grow up. You can say it freezes at the age it's transformed. Or that it ages too slowly. If you're only not okay with it until a certain level, plot-contrive the aging rate such that it comes to maturity when the PC hits a level you're okay with the powers being at his disposal.


If you are okay with him having this Nightmare foal, then allow that he can learn the ritual tortures necessary. If you're not, that's when you start saying, "sorry, you need Outsider help to do this," and scale the Outsider help to be such that he won't get it until he's of a level you're comfortable with him having this pet.

[Falcos]

I am comfortable with him having a Nightmare, but I'm not sure if there are any of its powers I should be leery of.

I'm planning to cut HD down - although I'm not sure by how much I should do so - and I had already planned to cut size to Medium or even Small - as he did say he wanted it freshly winged when he de-winged it, and I imagine that the growth of entire limbs would be an early stage in a pegasus's life.

Really, I am asking for advice on these topics, because I'm not sure if I'm doing this right. :)

Thank you all for your responses so far. :)

[Segev]

The two (Su) abilities are the ones to look out for, I think. Etherealness will permit physical travel to the inner planes (Elemental planes and the positive/negative energy planes, primarily), but more dangerously will also make walls a non-issue for him. Think about how ghosts get around; they do it by going to the Ethereal plane more than they do via incorporeality (which has odd rules in D&D about needing to remain within 5 feet of a surface when "inside" solid objects).

Astral projection is even more dangerous in the hands of somebody willing to optimize it. On the surface, it's an ability to visit any plane he wants by riding his mount through the Astral plane. It takes navigation, but it's doable. (He does leave both their bodies behind on the first plane, but...)

The optimizer's trick with astral projection is to use it not just for interplanar travel, but to take advantage of its rule that you form a new, temporary body on the destination plane. Ride your Nightmare into the Ethereal Plane with etherealness and then astral project back onto the plane you want to be on (likely the Prime, where the game is happening), and now, if you die, your projection is destroyed and you wake back up in your real body on the ethereal plane. Have your mount re-activate astral projection and you can ride back into the game without suffering any penalty for death beyond the time it takes to ride back through a color pool to the Prime.


You can probably house rule things to prevent any of this, but I'd honestly just say that the immature Nightmare lacks those two abilities, at least at first.

[John Longarrow]

If its biology follows normal rules, it grows its wings pre-birth. It comes out with wings on its back. It may not be able to use them but it would have them.

For ease of play, if you really want this in your game I'd make the act required to change it take time... a LOT of time. If its life cycle is anything like a real horse you are looking at it going from foal to ride-able in a year or so. They grow FAST. You could justify that it takes that long to turn it so they get the nightmare without you having to do anything regarding its maturation.