Familiar reaction to a master's alignment change

[Sarjenka]

I began our campaign as a sorceress of chaotic good alignment, and I selected a rat, "Korra", as my familiar. Recently I acquired a Deck of Many Things, and I drew the "Balance" card. My alignment has now instantly become neutral evil.

How does my familiar react to this? I assume that she is of chaotic good alignment as well, being a magical beast with an Intelligence of 6. Does the Deck change her alignment as well? It doesn't seem like it would. If not, and she continues to be chaotic good, would she [grudgingly] stay with me, bitterly turn on me, become depressed and stop eating, or what? How does the empathic link affect both of us? Can a familiar dismiss her mistress, as a sorceress would dismiss a familiar? Would my character want to dismiss her?

[Sheogoroth]

I would think, unless you specifically had a celestial familiar or if your character had an improved familiar it wouldn't matter at all.

A wizard, or in this case a sorceress, is the source of the familiar's intelligence. Without them the familiar is just a mindless rat.
Improved familiars have inherent intelligence and an innate alignment, but a base familiar wouldn't matter

[Jasqua]

Aren't familiars "part of you" or something? I'd imagine it would change alignment with you, but I honestly have no clue

[Deophaun]

How does my familiar react to this?
How do you want your familiar to react?

[Sarjenka]

A wizard, or in this case a sorceress, is the source of the familiar's intelligence. Without them the familiar is just a mindless rat.

Well I take some umbrage to this characterization: I have raised and lived with rats for about 14 years now, and, they are certainly not "mindless". I think the Int score of 2 might be the average, but, I've had a lot of really smart rats. And their personality differs a lot. I have had rats who have loved me so much that they slept in bed with me, and, I have had rats that have hated me so much I wouldn't trust them to be loose while I was asleep at all.

If she were to be dismissed, assuming that she reverts to being type "animal" and her Int drops back to 2, I would think that she'd become depressed, stop eating, and eventually, get sick and die. I have seen a lot of rats do that when their cage mate dies, when they are "given away" by an owner they cared for a lot, or they are moved to a place they don't want to be.


How do you want your familiar to react?

«smiles» I guess this is the most important question, isn't it? I just wanted to know what everyone else thought before I made that decision...

[Celestia]

Aren't standard familiars all true neutral?

And wouldn't you go to lawful evil since you started as chaotic good?

And why in the world did you draw from the Deck of Many Things?

[Psyren]

A regular familiar would likely stick around. An Improved Familiar would likely be deterred and need replacement.

[Sarjenka]

Aren't standard familiars all true neutral?

It says that all "animals" are true neutral because their Int is 2. But does that change when she becomes a "magical beast" and their Int goes up? Do they acquire their mistress's alignment?


And wouldn't you go to lawful evil since you started as chaotic good?

The DMG says "radically different alignment", not "diametrically opposed alignment". We interpreted that to mean that my choices were lawful neutral, lawful evil or neutral evil. I just picked one. I dual-classed into Rogue, so, she doesn't strike me as the lawful type.


And why in the world did you draw from the Deck of Many Things?

«laughs» Two reasons:

1) I just couldn't resist. I mean, how often does one actually get a Deck of Many Things? (It was given to me by Santa Claus. Long story.)

2) Our DM actually went out and purchased a Tarot deck in Real Life, even though he has no interest in using it, just for the purpose of giving me the Deck of Many Things. When I learned that, well, how could I not use it?

[tomandtish]

Good for you. Always good to see someone having fun even if the consequences could be dire.

I'd argue that normal familiars still tend to stay neutral. They may have the heightened INT, but that helps them be better familiars. They don’t really CARE about larger moral issues. They care about YOU and themselves. Not because they are selfish or evil, but because they are still animals. They don’t have the background to care, and their focus when they became a familiar is YOU, not necessarily what you have been doing.

Improved Familiars might very well have issues. If you had a familiar that actually had a good alignment before, they probably would not be happy with this change (unless it was ruled they changed as well). Could play this a variety of ways:

The familiar leaves (they sever the bond).

The familiar stays and tries to change you back through persuasion.

The familiar is stuck and becomes little better than a slave (if you wanted it played it that way). Might become a reluctant familiar who subtly works against you.

There's a lot of options. Really depends on what you and your DM agree to.

[Inevitability]

A wizard, or in this case a sorceress, is the source of the familiar's intelligence. Without them the familiar is just a mindless rat.

Not entirely correct. Tome and Blood tells us a familiar whose master dies stays sentient and retains most of its abilities; it is just treated as a familiar of a caster two levels lower until its master is returned from the dead somehow. So while the sorceress may be the source of her familiar's existence, she's only somewhat responsible for its continued intelligence.

[Sheogoroth]

Not entirely correct. Tome and Blood tells us a familiar whose master dies stays sentient and retains most of its abilities; it is just treated as a familiar of a caster two levels lower until its master is returned from the dead somehow. So while the sorceress may be the source of her familiar's existence, she's only somewhat responsible for its continued intelligence.

Interesting. Well I suppose that does sort of fit the bill. Though I would still argue that the arcane bond is still there and would change the familiar's alignment to that of the wizard.

[ellindsey]

You named your familiar Korra?

When she finds out about your alignment change, she'll go Avatar state and beat the crap out of you.

[Deepbluediver]

«smiles» I guess this is the most important question, isn't it? I just wanted to know what everyone else thought before I made that decision...
In my version of things, familiars are NOT a separate entity but are in fact forged from a fragment of the spellcaster's soul, so whatever affects one has an equal effect on the other. (and in fact even classifying a familiar as "other" is pushing it)

If you haven't been treating it like this from the start it might be kind of hard to shoehorn in, but as an option you can say that because of their etheric link the Wizard and familiar are drawn towards each other alignment wise.

[Calthropstu]

Aren't standard familiars all true neutral?

And wouldn't you go to lawful evil since you started as chaotic good?

And why in the world did you draw from the Deck of Many Things?

I have never, not once, seen a party NOT draw from the deck once given to them. The allure is too great.

On topic: I'd say it changes with you. Maybe not immediately though. Maybe a slow change that it at first doesn't like. "I want my old master back..."

[Flickerdart]

Not entirely correct. Tome and Blood tells us a familiar whose master dies stays sentient and retains most of its abilities; it is just treated as a familiar of a caster two levels lower until its master is returned from the dead somehow. So while the sorceress may be the source of her familiar's existence, she's only somewhat responsible for its continued intelligence.
Now I am imagining an empire of mages like Netheril that suddenly conks out due to some kind of magic virus. Everyone dies, but their familiars survive and continue to maintain society. Perhaps while trying to bring their masters back to life, though I imagine there would be pro and con factions.

[Zanos]

Well I take some umbrage to this characterization: I have raised and lived with rats for about 14 years now, and, they are certainly not "mindless". I think the Int score of 2 might be the average, but, I've had a lot of really smart rats. And their personality differs a lot. I have had rats who have loved me so much that they slept in bed with me, and, I have had rats that have hated me so much I wouldn't trust them to be loose while I was asleep at all.
I think the point he was trying to make is that creatures with animal level intelligence don't have the capacity for morality, so their alignment doesn't matter much. Also, no rat or any other animal has more than 2 intelligence per D&D rules, because that would make them a magical beast.


Skips Rules of the Game article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050927a), despite not actually being rules, say that a familiar who's master dies loses it's abilities after one day per caster level as a general rule. Tome and Blood is 3.0 content, and so is superseded by 3.5 content. Since 3.5 content reprinted the general rules for familiars and a corpse has no class features, the familiar ceases to be a familiar.

As to it's alignment, I'm actually not sure. Improved Familiars, as previously mentioned, definitely abandon you. I always thought familiars were a fragment of the wizards personality and/or soul(which is why they lose XP when familiars are killed), but the Vampire template actually has some interesting text:

Sorcerers and Wizards
Vampire sorcerers and wizards retain their class abilities, but if a character has a familiar other than a rat or bat, the link between them is broken, and the familiar shuns its former companion. The character can summon another familiar, but it must be a rat or bat.
Weird animal discrimination aside, that indicates that familiars still have some of their own personality, but I've always played it that familiars are loyal to their caster to a fault. I suppose the answer is to ask your DM.

[Sarjenka]

You named your familiar Korra?

Korra is named after a real rat that I had. She was very smart, and, the most FEARLESS little thing. She wanted to go outside, she wanted to play, she wanted to meet anyone (human or animal) she could. She got very bouncy when I would come home and she knew I was going to let her out. She was the Adventure-Mouse. She passed away last summer, but, her spirit lives on in D&D. She will always be my magical beast.


On topic: I'd say it changes with you. Maybe not immediately though. Maybe a slow change that it at first doesn't like. "I want my old master back..."

I think we're on the right track here...


Skip's Rules of the Game article...

Oh! This is very cool, thank you for showing it to me. I never would have found it on my own!!! And yes, this man is definitely an authoritative source.


...ask your DM.

How do you want your familiar to react?

Yes... it DOES come down to this. And I think you have all given me enough input to be very helpful! Thank you all so much, Blessed Be!

[Duke of Urrel]

I began our campaign as a sorceress of chaotic good alignment, and I selected a rat, "Korra", as my familiar. Recently I acquired a Deck of Many Things, and I drew the "Balance" card. My alignment has now instantly become neutral evil.

How does my familiar react to this? I assume that she is of chaotic good alignment as well, being a magical beast with an Intelligence of 6. Does the Deck change her alignment as well? It doesn't seem like it would. If not, and she continues to be chaotic good, would she [grudgingly] stay with me, bitterly turn on me, become depressed and stop eating, or what? How does the empathic link affect both of us? Can a familiar dismiss her mistress, as a sorceress would dismiss a familiar? Would my character want to dismiss her?

I believe your character now has a lot of interesting and challenging problems, because:

1. I believe a familiar with an Intelligence score of three or higher should acquire the alignment of its master if it is anything other than purely Neutral.

2. I believe the Empathic Link always works so that the familiar and its master are nearly always aware of the emotions of each other's psyche and the inner sensations of each other's body. These include but are not limited to: anger, confusion, curiosity, eagerness, envy, fatigue, fear, grief, hunger, impatience, joy, love, nausea, pain, pity, pride, revulsion, sadness, sexual arousal, shame, thirst, triumph, unwillingness, and willingness. The Empathic Link does not send any sensory information, such as images, sounds, smells, and tastes. (You get the power to see as if through your familiar's eyes only when you gain the power to scry upon your familiar.) I believe the Empathic Link is effectively turned off only when the familiar or the master sleeps deeply without dreaming. Since the Empathic Link makes even Evil sorcerers and wizards aware of their familiars' feelings, I believe they feel compelled to take good care of their familiars, despite their selfishness. And Evil familiars feel loyal to their masters for the same reason.

Consequently, I believe you and your familiar still feel loyal to each other, but only in the way that two people can be loyal to each other despite passionate ideological differences. Most certainly, your familiar wants to save you from your new affliction and will try to influence you in small ways to return to Chaotic Good. But you, being Neutral Evil, are outraged at your familiar's persistent and annoying conscience. If you are advanced enough to have a conversation with your familiar in your own private language, you surely have bitter arguments with your familiar. Even so, I believe you both believe you are stuck with each other, despite your differences.

Probably, your familiar now plots to rescue you. It believe that the truest loyalty to you would be to restore your original alignment. Your familiar isn't very clever, having an Intelligence score of only six, but it's not a total idiot. Therefore, everything it does that it guesses you would disapprove, it does in secret. Whenever you're distracted and your familiar has the chance to sneak away, it looks around for a mighty character, best of all a spellcaster, who might reverse your curse.

At the same time, you probably plot to have your familiar killed in some quick and painless way, because your Empathic Link makes you wince at the thought of how it will feel to you at the moment your familiar dies. As much as you wish you could, you just cannot stop caring for your familiar. You now believe the Empathic Link is a terrible curse that you wish you could break. And maybe you can! An Antimagic Field would break your Empathic Link. Enter an Antimagic Field, and at last you will become able calmly and dispassionately to make your familiar "pay the price for its lack of vision."

In short, unless your familiar has powerful allies and can somehow enlist their aid without you noticing, I believe you will destroy your familiar before it saves you.

[Flickerdart]

At the same time, you probably plot to have your familiar killed in some quick and painless way, because your Empathic Link makes you wince at the thought of how it will feel to you at the moment your familiar dies. As much as you wish you could, you just cannot stop caring for your familiar. You now believe the Empathic Link is a terrible curse that you wish you could break. And maybe you can! An Antimagic Field would break your Empathic Link. Enter an Antimagic Field, and at last you will become able calmly and dispassionately to make your familiar "pay the price for its lack of vision."
Evil doesn't mean "kill everybody." Your familiar is a valuable companion and trusted ally. Do you murder party members just because they have a different alignment? No, that would be stupid.

[Zanos]

Yeah, do you think evil wizards/sorcerers just don't use their familiar class feature?

[Celestia]

Evil doesn't mean "kill everybody." Your familiar is a valuable companion and trusted ally. Do you murder party members just because they have a different alignment? No, that would be stupid.
It would be far more logical to try tempting the familiar into evil. That way, it can share in your vision and be even more valuable. Or maybe you just don't care. As long as the familiar continues to faithfully serve you, why should it matter what the thing's alignment is?

[Deophaun]

1. I believe a familiar with an Intelligence score of three or higher should acquire the alignment of its master if it is anything other than purely Neutral.
To put it bluntly, what you believe is irrelevant. You aren't the player, you aren't the DM, and there's certainly nothing in the rules that says that. Heck, even the empathic link ability--where you're on the most solid ground--only says "can," not "must."

Oh, and familiar Intelligence scores start at 6 and go up from there, so "with an Intelligence score of three or higher" is redundant.

[Zanos]

To put it bluntly, what you believe is irrelevant. You aren't the player, you aren't the DM, and there's certainly nothing in the rules that says that. Heck, even the empathic link ability--where you're on the most solid ground--only says "can," not "must."

Oh, and familiar Intelligence scores start at 6 and go up from there, so "with an Intelligence score of three or higher" is redundant.
Seriously?
OP: "What does the playground think about scenario X?"
Duke: "Here is my non-RAW opinion on scenario X."
You: "What you believe about scenario X is irrelevant."

Feel free to criticize their point of view, but it isn't irrelevant. Your horse is so high you can't even see the ground.

[Deophaun]

Seriously?
OP: "What does the playground think about scenario X?"
Duke: "Here is my non-RAW opinion on scenario X."
You: "What you believe about scenario X is irrelevant."

Feel free to criticize their point of view, but it isn't irrelevant. Your horse is so high you can't even see the ground.
Notice how you have to keep shifting the terminology to make your criticism work. Good try, though.

[Sarjenka]

1. I believe a familiar... should acquire the alignment of its master if it is anything other than purely Neutral.

Yes, that was what I thought too. I mean, I would think so... when she acquires the heightened Int score, she then develops the capacity for an alignment... so it would seem the two would share one, being as close as they are.

But the rules don't SAY that.


2. I believe the Empathic Link always works so that the familiar and its master are nearly always aware of the emotions of each other's psyche and the inner sensations of each other's body. These include but are not limited to: anger, confusion, curiosity, eagerness, envy, fatigue, fear, grief, hunger, impatience, joy, love, nausea, pain, pity, pride, revulsion, sadness, sexual arousal, shame, thirst, triumph, unwillingness, and willingness.

Right. And this would be troubling. My character has now instantaneously become a different type of person. Maybe slightly confused, occasionally quite cold and callous, but mostly, emotionally "blank", when she used to be vibrant and joyous. Poor Korra will become very confused, and probably fearful of this. This in turn will make Sarjenka sad, and experience guilt... which would be an uncomfortable reminder of the person she used to be, giving rise to frustration. Korra then feels this, understands that she is the reason why Sarjenka feels this way, but does not understand what actually happened to Sarjenka to cause this change... so she begins to waste away...


Consequently, I believe you and your familiar still feel loyal to each other, but only in the way that two people can be loyal to each other despite passionate ideological differences.

Maybe I'm screwed up, but, I can't imagine feeling loyalty (or unconditional trust) for someone with such passionate ideological differences. Friendship, sure, but, this kind of bond goes far beyond that.


At the same time, you probably plot to have your familiar killed... you just cannot stop caring for your familiar.

Whoa! No way would she do that! She's not a sadistic murderess... "evil" is not that straightforward or simple (which is what makes it scary). But if the relationship begins to make both of them sad most of them time, she might dismiss Korra as a familiar, convincing herself that this is what's best for the rat, to let her go, while subconsciously cutting ties with her last real "friend" that ever made her happy. Sarjenka LOVES Korra - even "evil" people experience Love, they just experience it differently. And sometimes, it is experienced in the form of Regret.

... Except that, according to the D&D Archive article that was linked above, dismissing her would result in her immediately reverting to a normal "animal", Int dropping back down to 2, and [presumably] a normal rat's life span. I guess I have to consider, how cold and callous she has really become.

I would draw an analogy to a long-term romantic relationship that is coming apart. I'm sure we've all had them. The two of you once Loved so deeply, but somehow, one or both of you just changed. You may still care about each other, but eventually, you fight so much that you both realize it has to end. Sometimes this involves very uncomfortable feelings of coldness, distrust, alienation, or resentment. That doesn't mean you murder each other! Or, a pet, who maybe you once loved, but something changes and you can't take care of it anymore. Do you let it sit in a cage and be miserable? Find a new owner? Or just let it go?

I don't know. Like I said above, Korra was really a living rat once, and now, she is my familiar in every campaign I begin. But in this one, things have gone down this path. It's very sad and difficult to even imagine Sarjenka sending Korra away - they would both be heartbroken - but now Sarjenka is neutral evil and I have to wrap my mind around that... (But not so deeply that I can't come back).

[Mystral]

Familiars stay of a neutral alignment and stay loyal to their master, supporting them in their actions no matter their moral implications.

While a familiar has it's own quirks, personality and preferences, it has no agenda of its own, its only goal is to help its master and act on his/her behalf. Even while the familiar has the intellectual capacity for alignment, this alignment is invariably true neutral.

[SangoProduction]

Weird animal discrimination aside, that indicates that familiars still have some of their own personality, but I've always played it that familiars are loyal to their caster to a fault. I suppose the answer is to ask your DM.

I would say it's more an indication that the Vampire's link can't support a different animal from the set of traditional vampire familiars, more than it implies that familiars can choose to shun their masters.

[Calthropstu]

Familiars stay of a neutral alignment and stay loyal to their master, supporting them in their actions no matter their moral implications.

While a familiar has it's own quirks, personality and preferences, it has no agenda of its own, its only goal is to help its master and act on his/her behalf. Even while the familiar has the intellectual capacity for alignment, this alignment is invariably true neutral.

You are correct. I went looking for alignment rules regarding familiars, I had always thought alignment matches the master's, but there's nothing regarding alignment of a familiar at all unless you take an improved familiar. So they are all invariably true neutral.

[Flickerdart]

While a familiar has it's own quirks, personality and preferences, it has no agenda of its own, its only goal is to help its master and act on his/her behalf.

Unless, of course, your wizard was picked by a cat familiar.

[Duke of Urrel]

To put it bluntly, what you believe is irrelevant.


Duke: "Here is my non-RAW opinion on scenario X."

As a point of clarification, I often use the word "I believe..." in pretty much the same sense as "I am of opinion that..." Once we have left the Rules as Written behind us, I believe beliefs are neither more nor less relevant than opinions. In either case, when I use the quotative frame "I believe...," I mean to say: "What I think the rules SHOULD or OUGHT TO mean is..." When I say "I believe...," this is a signal that I'm not talking about the RAW at all; I'm only talking about what I think, feel, opine, suppose, conjecture, speculate, assume, or ... believe about them.

Sarjenka, you are of course right that Evil characters are not indiscriminately murderous beings. I merely imagined that if a morally Evil character had to endure the conscientious chirping of a Jiminy Cricket long enough, he or she would sooner or later probably want to squash it to make it shut up. After all, for a selfishly Neutral-Evil sorceress, there's always the possibility – and the perpetual temptation – of finding a new and better, more morally compatible familiar.

Your character is your own, and you are free to role-play Evil as you imagine it, just as you are free to role-play Chaotic-Good as you imagine it. I was mainly trying to imagine your familiar's dilemma – and the possible risks that your familiar may choose to take by sticking with you.

[tomandtish]

Yes, that was what I thought too. I mean, I would think so... when she acquires the heightened Int score, she then develops the capacity for an alignment... so it would seem the two would share one, being as close as they are.

But the rules don't SAY that.


You hit the nail on the head here. The INT gave her the potential for the alignment. But has she been making moral decisions (or even placed in situations where she'd have to make them)? Or like most familiars has she been a beloved pet that's a little smarter than the norm, performing a bunch of tricks?

Again, it's really cool you are thinking of the options here. And I see a lot of good role playing opportunities for the good familiar with a (suddenly) evil master. Whatever you and your DM decide though, remember the most important rule of all: You should be having fun. Don't do something that is going to make you as a player unhappy. Make sure you (and your DM) are going to enjoy playing what you decide.

Your character can be as miserable as he wants to be, however. :smalltongue:



Familiars stay of a neutral alignment and stay loyal to their master, supporting them in their actions no matter their moral implications.

While a familiar has it's own quirks, personality and preferences, it has no agenda of its own, its only goal is to help its master and act on his/her behalf. Even while the familiar has the intellectual capacity for alignment, this alignment is invariably true neutral.


Unless, of course, your wizard was picked by a cat familiar.

..... then the alignment (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/trust) is invariably CE (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill). :smallbiggrin:

[Sarjenka]

OK, thanks everybody! You've given me a lot of information, resources, opinions, and ideas! Totally appreciate it! :smallwink:

[Bohandas]

I began our campaign as a sorceress of chaotic good alignment, and I selected a rat, "Korra", as my familiar. Recently I acquired a Deck of Many Things, and I drew the "Balance" card. My alignment has now instantly become neutral evil.

Shouldn't that be lawful evil?

[Inevitability]

Shouldn't that be lawful evil?

That was addressed before.


The DMG says "radically different alignment", not "diametrically opposed alignment". We interpreted that to mean that my choices were lawful neutral, lawful evil or neutral evil. I just picked one. I dual-classed into Rogue, so, she doesn't strike me as the lawful type.