Upgrading Symbionts for passive bonuses

[Jowgen]

In the course of my recent thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511184-Using-Vivacious-Creature-for-arbitrarily-high-HP)about abusing the Vivacious Creature template, Thurbane came up with the idea of applying it to a Symbiont (Shadow Sibling ended up being the top pick) and also posed the question what other templates could be used for similar benefits.

This thread is basically that, but not strictly limited to templates. We are looking for anything and everything that can be done to grant a simbiont (ideally Shadow Sibling, applied in the confines of a Ghost Trap spell if incorpreality is an issue) further abilities that could benefit its host. Templates, permanent spells, utility feats; all that jazz.

To start off:
- Vivacious Creature (for a living host with Steadfast Determination and Fort +19, endless HP)
- Entropic Creature (for any undead, effectively fast healing 1)
- Fire-Souled Creature (+1 morale bonus on attack & skills, a +2 morale against charm and fear, symbiont gains Leadership)
- Wood-Element creature (Woodsense)

[daremetoidareyo]

Reform your symbiont from the redeemery and channel a celestial into them. Guide in Sig!
Iron Chef entry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20864660&postcount=88) based on this

[Thurbane]

The various SLA granting templates give the symbiont extra abilities that it can use on your behalf.

If it's capable of gaining levels, maybe a class that grants passive auras, like Marshal?

[Jowgen]

Reform your symbiont from the redeemery and channel a celestial into them. Guide in Sig!
Iron Chef entry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20864660&postcount=88) based on this

-dies from celestial lactose overdose- :smallbiggrin:


The various SLA granting templates give the symbiont extra abilities that it can use on your behalf.

If it's capable of gaining levels, maybe a class that grants passive auras, like Marshal?

SLAs on Symbionts always bothered me. For one, them generally getting their own actions each turn, is beyond abuseable. Pretty sure I made a thread about that an age or so ago. To make matters worse, I never managed to reconcile how an internal symbiont would get Line of Effect or even Sight to things. Some symbionts have SLAs that are explicitly functional (e.g. the Mind Leech's ones, which cost Int damage), but for those granted through other things, it's real buggy.

The Shadow Sibling explicitly doesn't get actions while bonded (part of the reason I'm happy with that one), so that's not as much of an issue. Giving it SLAs might be good for utility (e.g. unbond to get access to a situational SLA). Might be tricky to apply them though because typing.

Class level wise, I'm pretty sure all symbionts have "advancement: None" entries, so no dice there. :smallsigh:

[Thurbane]

I was looking at the Draconic Aura feat, but it requires "character level 3". Do any symbionts get 3HD?

[Jowgen]

I was looking at the Draconic Aura feat, but it requires "character level 3". Do any symbionts get 3HD?

I checked all 3 sources I know (FF, ECS, & MoE), and no. A few have 2 HD (a bunch of fractional HD, which was new to me), but no 3 HD.

And I also double checked, they universally have "Advancement: None".

Now realizing that they are all 1 or 2 HD, I remembered my old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499714-Arch-Lantern-Corps-a-silly-Create-Lantern-Archon-optimization-exercise-of-mine)about customizing Lantern Archons and checked what could be carried over.

If we can get the Symbiont redeemed to Exalted standard and re-stack its feat(s) (e.g chaos shuffle), it could get the touch of Golden Ice feat, which could be useful on a few of the external symbionts (sadly Shadow Sibling is out due to the Con requirement). Knight of Tyr's Merciful Sword is the same deal, in this case with a Wis +13 symbiont (order-fluff requirement pending). Fell Conspiracy technically works, but only a few Symbionts (Mind Leech) qualify, and it only gets the base message ability. That's about it.

[daremetoidareyo]

If the symbionts are sentient and alive corporeal critters, they can be possessed by quori.

[Jowgen]

If the symbionts are sentient and alive corporeal critters, they can be possessed by quori.

Most of them are (Shadow Sibling and that Undead one from FF being the exception), but I'm not really familiar with Quori stuff, what kinda benefits could such a posession net the host?

[daremetoidareyo]

shape soulmeld can be attached to any of the symbionts with con 13 or higher: Psionic Sinew
If the symbiont can have a flaw, share soulmeld becomes an option...They could strongheart vest you against all of your mindleaches.

Bind vestige ronove can nab your symbiont featherfall...which might help you?

I went and read up more on quori, they can only possess a few races, all of which are human/chosen/kalashtar. So nevermind that idea.

[Jowgen]

shape soulmeld can be attached to any of the symbionts with con 13 or higher: Psionic Sinew
If the symbiont can have a flaw, share soulmeld becomes an option...They could strongheart vest you against all of your mindleaches.

Bind vestige ronove can nab your symbiont featherfall...which might help you?

Well done on noticing that they qualify for Share Soulmend thanks to the inherent Share Spells they get. Some Symbionts get racial feats, so in the absence of flaws, one might be able to Chaos Shuffle those out. Failing that, a few of the soulmends might still be somewhat handy on just the symiont. Therapeutic mantle could benefit the host due to share spells, I think... Soulspark Familiar might have its uses... Necrocarnum Circlet might work... that's about it, I think.

For most symbionts, we can get to that Con requirement by applying a template or 2. Mineral Warrior can be applied via a simple spell, and while it doesn't do anything for our purposes by itself, that +4 Con gets most symbionts to 13. A lot of them could even do with just a +2, like from Entropic (for a moment there I thought Entropic was moot because I figured symbionts need living hosts... but no. Only the Breed Leech specifies).

[Thurbane]

The Multiheaded template can be applied to any corporeal symbiont with a discernable, head, and adds extra HD to the symbiont. Due to sioze, the limit would be one extra head: but this would still add 2 extra HD, opening more possibilities for feats.

Other than Lycanthrope, which symbionts could not acquire, nit sure if there are any other templates that would increase their HD?

[Mr Adventurer]

If they are possessed by a fiend (or channel a celestial? Idk, I can't remember channelling rules), does the fiend inherit the 'no separate actions' trait?

Speaking of which, if you're looking for boosts, you could Extract Gift with the symbiont as the beneficiary.

Presumably, some of them are telepathic with their hosts? If not, I'm sure magic can solve that. In which case, using Spot and Listen to oppose Hide and Move Silently is free, as is talking, so they might be able to radar for you if you can boost their senses obscenely.

[Thurbane]

Looking at Multiheaded again, it might be problematic, as very few symbionts have anything resembling a "discernable head". I think you could make an argument for Gutworm and SOult Tick based on their illustration:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50154.jpg