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View Full Version : What monster would you use to pull a train between cities?



Hawksteel
2017-01-11, 07:58 PM
Eberron has the lightning rails, but what about if there was more of an attempt to domesticate monsters through magical means to perform some physical labour?

In this instance pulling trains between large cities. What would be a good choice for this?

Jay R
2017-01-11, 08:03 PM
Eberron has the lightning rails, but what about if there was more of an attempt to domesticate monsters through magical means to perform some physical labour?

In this instance pulling trains between large cities. What would be a good choice for this?

I would use iron golems, made for this specific purpose, in the shape of horses.

Cluedrew
2017-01-11, 08:06 PM
To pull the train? Anything large, land based and with multiple legs should do.

Or you could drop the train on top of a giant centipede, because why not?

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-11, 09:28 PM
Gargantuan animated object shaped very much ilke a train engine. It's just way too much easier than anything with an intellligence score or that has the predatory instincts of most vermin. A skeletal or zombified (well preserved, of course) version of some huge or gargantuan creature of monstrous strength could also work.

Honestly though, if you're working with dray creatures of any kind, you're generally better off with wagons or howdahs because they're simply not going to be powerful enough to pull full-length trains and if you're only pulling two or three carts, at most, there's no good reason to lay track when simple roads are adequate.

There's a reason there were no trains before the steam engine.

Yukitsu
2017-01-12, 01:12 AM
I like using effigies of those wheel lions stuck together and connected to a geared axle.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-12, 01:27 AM
I like using effigies of those wheel lions stuck together and connected to a geared axle.

Tome of Magic's roving mauler?

Yukitsu
2017-01-12, 01:39 AM
Tome of Magic's roving mauler?

Yeah, that one.

Mechalich
2017-01-12, 02:24 AM
It might make more sense to just animate the train, car by car. A single train car counts as a Gargantuan object, meaning a 16th level wizard could do it. After that it's just a matter of permanency and synchronizing your orders and you have a train that runs forever without any power source. Since gargantuan animated objects have strength 24 and a rail car surely qualifies as a quadruped each car can drag 42000 lbs (which is about what a modern commercial truck hauls, though it's light for a rail car).

Such a train wouldn't go especially fast - wheeled gargantuan animated objects have a spd of 50 ft. - only about 5.5 mph, but it could run 24 hours a day, allowing to make about 130 miles per day, which is very respectable.

Mutazoia
2017-01-12, 03:48 AM
It might make more sense to just animate the train, car by car. A single train car counts as a Gargantuan object, meaning a 16th level wizard could do it. After that it's just a matter of permanency and synchronizing your orders and you have a train that runs forever without any power source. Since gargantuan animated objects have strength 24 and a rail car surely qualifies as a quadruped each car can drag 42000 lbs (which is about what a modern commercial truck hauls, though it's light for a rail car).

Such a train wouldn't go especially fast - wheeled gargantuan animated objects have a spd of 50 ft. - only about 5.5 mph, but it could run 24 hours a day, allowing to make about 130 miles per day, which is very respectable.

Technically, you could get off a lot cheaper by using an actual steam engine. Replace the coal fired furnace with a gate to the elemental plain of fire, and fill the boiler with water from an decanter of endless water, and boom, a steam train that runs forever.

Storm_Of_Snow
2017-01-12, 04:01 AM
Technically, you could get off a lot cheaper by using an actual steam engine. Replace the coal fired furnace with a gate to the elemental plain of fire, and fill the boiler with water from an decanter of endless water, and boom, a steam train that runs forever.
So long as your metallurgy's good enough to make something that will contain the pressure... :smalleek:

Mutazoia
2017-01-12, 04:36 AM
So long as your metallurgy's good enough to make something that will contain the pressure... :smalleek:

If your metallurgy's good enough to build a rail system, I think its good enough to handle a simple boiler/steam engine. If you're that paranoid, just us a mono-tube boiler, that way any failure in containment would simply dump all the water on the ground, instead of going boom.

Besides, steam trains have multiple pressure release systems, from the steam whistle to simple release vents. Which is why, when you see a steam train in the station, there is always steam puffing out from under the locomotive, or blasting out every now and then. (Those vents are pointed at the ground, so people on the platforms don't get flash roasted.)

hymer
2017-01-12, 04:39 AM
So long as your metallurgy's good enough to make something that will contain the pressure... :smalleek:

It all adds to the fun!

Anyway, I'd think that if you get some high speeds, you could get some use of an air elemental, which would sit at the front end of the train and reduce wind resistance during travel.

Mutazoia
2017-01-12, 04:51 AM
It all adds to the fun!

Anyway, I'd think that if you get some high speeds, you could get some use of an air elemental, which would sit at the front end of the train and reduce wind resistance during travel.

That would probably work better if you were setting up a subway system ala the 1869 New York pneumatic trainsit system, only using a vacuum tube, like they use at bank drive up teller kiosks. The enclosed tubes would make regulating the airpresser/airflow easier than it would out in the open.

Hawksteel
2017-01-12, 05:34 AM
Thank you, those are all excellent suggestions.

Storm_Of_Snow
2017-01-12, 06:23 AM
If your metallurgy's good enough to build a rail system, I think its good enough to handle a simple boiler/steam engine.

Early tracks used wood, and you need much better quality metal and production processes for steam pipes (especially if you want the entire thing light enough to get appreciable tractive effort) than the rails they run on (which are bulk extruded as white-hot beams and then rolled into shape in massive mills while cooling).

People died trying to get that right. And, lest we forget, we're talking a standard pseudo-medieval D&D world, where pretty much anyone with any kind of interest in materials science is trying to turn lead into gold, not Georgian/Victorian Europe where steam boilers for powering mine pumps are well known things that have been around for over 100 years, and there's centuries of experience with producing metals and pressure resistant structures for things like cannons and handguns.



If you're that paranoid, just us a mono-tube boiler, that way any failure in containment would simply dump all the water on the ground, instead of going boom.


No, sorry, but it's going boom - might not be that big if you're not using superheaters, but it won't "dump all the water on the ground". Rocket's boiler pressure was 50 psi (300 kPA, or near enough three times atmospheric pressure), Tornado's is 250 psi and the Big Boy class were at 300 psi.

At the very least, the crew are getting boiled.



Besides, steam trains have multiple pressure release systems, from the steam whistle to simple release vents. Which is why, when you see a steam train in the station, there is always steam puffing out from under the locomotive, or blasting out every now and then. (Those vents are pointed at the ground, so people on the platforms don't get flash roasted.)
The pressure release is a valve on top of the boiler - the "vents" are the exhausts for the pistons (plus you have sand pipes next to the wheels for traction), and if you're relying on the whistle to relieve pressure, you're going to be hanging off it for a long time.

As for the rest, I suspect I've seen a lot more steam engines than you have, because there's never steam "puffing" or "blasting" out from underneath when it's stationary - while there's always some venting and leakage, the fireman will have timed his firing so that the steam pressure is reducing on the way into the platform, and building it up again ready to pull out, and back in the days of steam power, there were regulations about excessive smoke production (even before things like the clean air act) or releasing steam pressure while in the station.

Mutazoia
2017-01-12, 06:56 AM
Early tracks used wood, and you need much better quality metal and production processes for steam pipes (especially if you want the entire thing light enough to get appreciable tractive effort) than the rails they run on (which are bulk extruded as white-hot beams and then rolled into shape in massive mills while cooling).

People died trying to get that right. And, lest we forget, we're talking a standard pseudo-medieval D&D world, where pretty much anyone with any kind of interest in materials science is trying to turn lead into gold,

...where we also have dwarves, who work metal that is light as cloth but stronger than normal steel, and magic that can alter the properties of basic materials through enchantments....


The pressure release is a valve on top of the boiler - the "vents" are the exhausts for the pistons (plus you have sand pipes next to the wheels for traction), and if you're relying on the whistle to relieve pressure, you're going to be hanging off it for a long time.

...Which is why I said "Such as"...not "Only the whistle".


As for the rest, I suspect I've seen a lot more steam engines than you have, because there's never steam "puffing" or "blasting" out from underneath when it's stationary

Really? Hmmm...I could have sworn I saw some actualy evidence to the contrary.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB-3QI-UxCw

But all of this is besides the point, as it doesn't really apply in a fantasy setting, now does it?

Stealth Marmot
2017-01-12, 07:57 AM
Bulette.

Huge size, quadriped (increases max load including pull/drag ability), 27 strength, Can drag over 30,000 pounds, and that's under "normal" conditions. Assuming that means without wheels, you can double that with wheels, so the bullete can drag over 60,000 pounds or over 30 tons. Doesn't have any ranged attacks, breath attacks, venom, or any sort of special attacks at all besides biting. It can burrow, which means it has the ability to use its head and claws to chew through obstacles, meaning it could get through things blocking the rails with ease so long as it was trained properly. Int of 2, meaning it is not too intelligent to be trained. Land speed is 40 feet, which is not too fast, but could possibly be given enchanted bridles or other enchantments to increase the speed. It has low light vision, darkvision to 60 feet and even tremorsense, so it can pull and work in any sort of light condition or even underground.

GloatingSwine
2017-01-12, 09:28 AM
Really? Hmmm...I could have sworn I saw some actualy evidence to the contrary.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB-3QI-UxCw

But all of this is besides the point, as it doesn't really apply in a fantasy setting, now does it?

The title of that video should have given you a clue that the train was pulling out of the station (ie steam pressure has built up almost to its highest point and they're just about to try getting some work out of it).

Steam trains that are stationary at a platform vent minimal amounts of steam.


...where we also have dwarves, who work metal that is light as cloth but stronger than normal steel, and magic that can alter the properties of basic materials through enchantments....

Which is true, but also changes the whole face of your fantasy world into, well, the Industrial Revolution and what you're now playing is steampunk fantasy.

Jay R
2017-01-12, 09:48 AM
I would much prefer a magical looking approach to a steam engine. That's why I suggested iron horses - golems in the shape of horses.

Max_Killjoy
2017-01-12, 09:55 AM
Which is true, but also changes the whole face of your fantasy world into, well, the Industrial Revolution and what you're now playing is steampunk fantasy.

If your fantasy setting has trains, you've already diverged into the realm of "build world from scratch, this isn't history".

Segev
2017-01-12, 09:58 AM
Personally, I'd use haunt shift (from Libris Mortis) to create possessed train cars and have them mimic animated objects for me that way.

Gravitron5000
2017-01-12, 10:07 AM
Bulette.

Huge size, quadriped (increases max load including pull/drag ability), 27 strength, Can drag over 30,000 pounds, and that's under "normal" conditions. Assuming that means without wheels, you can double that with wheels, so the bullete can drag over 60,000 pounds or over 30 tons. Doesn't have any ranged attacks, breath attacks, venom, or any sort of special attacks at all besides biting. It can burrow, which means it has the ability to use its head and claws to chew through obstacles, meaning it could get through things blocking the rails with ease so long as it was trained properly. Int of 2, meaning it is not too intelligent to be trained. Land speed is 40 feet, which is not too fast, but could possibly be given enchanted bridles or other enchantments to increase the speed. It has low light vision, darkvision to 60 feet and even tremorsense, so it can pull and work in any sort of light condition or even underground.

More importantly, you get to refer to it as a bulette train. Just make sure to train your buletes.

DigoDragon
2017-01-12, 10:10 AM
I would much prefer a magical looking approach to a steam engine. That's why I suggested iron horses - golems in the shape of horses.

I'd support this. In a high fantasy world where golems never tire out and can run endlessly, it would make sense.

Then you have train robbing wizards who develop anti-magical traps that disable them, and there's a plot hook for an adventure.

Segev
2017-01-12, 10:12 AM
More importantly, you get to refer to it as a bulette train. Just make sure to train your buletes.

And if you do, bulette for you!

You may want to consider, however, whether the bulette should be pulling it above-ground, or burrowing. Different considerations for training and track design are involved in each.

Max_Killjoy
2017-01-12, 10:13 AM
More importantly, you get to refer to it as a bulette train. Just make sure to train your buletes.

You have won One Internet.

Your prize is in the mail.

Stealth Marmot
2017-01-12, 10:37 AM
More importantly, you get to refer to it as a bulette train. Just make sure to train your buletes.

HOW did I miss that pun? Well done sir.

CharonsHelper
2017-01-12, 10:53 AM
Such a train wouldn't go especially fast - wheeled gargantuan animated objects have a spd of 50 ft. - only about 5.5 mph, but it could run 24 hours a day, allowing to make about 130 miles per day, which is very respectable.

I think that it'd be faster than that. Why couldn't it run? (Maybe I'm missing something.) If it can run, it could run 24hrs a day. With x4 movement (200ft per 6 seconds) that'd be 2,000ft per minute, which is just over 22.7mph, though it would slow to half speed around turns. It could go 28.41mph if it took the Run feat. And that's before you gave it magic gear to boost speed. (With how much it cost to make in the first place, it'd be worth spending extra to make it faster.)

GloatingSwine
2017-01-12, 10:53 AM
If your fantasy setting has trains, you've already diverged into the realm of "build world from scratch, this isn't history".

True, but explanations like "dwarf-made steam boilers running on magically induced portals to planes of fire and water, driven by engineer-sorcerers who vary the size and intensity of the planar portals to build and control steam" implies greater than usual for fantasy levels of societal interconnectedness and specialisation. It takes multiple specialists in different places to build and operate these things.

If you want steam engines, you get an industrial revolution as a side effect. In a way that carts on rails pulled by trained animals that are bigger than anything we could have built in real life does not.

Mutazoia
2017-01-12, 11:10 AM
True, but explanations like "dwarf-made steam boilers running on magically induced portals to planes of fire and water, driven by engineer-sorcerers who vary the size and intensity of the planar portals to build and control steam" implies greater than usual for fantasy levels of societal interconnectedness and specialisation. It takes multiple specialists in different places to build and operate these things.

If you want steam engines, you get an industrial revolution as a side effect. In a way that carts on rails pulled by trained animals that are bigger than anything we could have built in real life does not.

You wouldn't have to vary the size of the portal, you use safety valves to adjust steam pressure. Unless you want to use a portal to the para-elemental plane of steam and cut out the middle man. But even then, you could create a custom magic item, similar to an eversmoking bottle, or a decanter of endless water...just have a decanter of endless steam that, like the endless water version, can have it's flow rate controlled more or less at will, regardless of magical skill or training.

But then you could always skip the mechanical method altogether and just crib a bit off the old "helms" from Spelljammer. No mechanical bits needed at all. And best part, you still don't have to train and feed live creatures that are prone to panic attacks or being eaten by something else.

Stealth Marmot
2017-01-12, 11:50 AM
I think that it'd be faster than that. Why couldn't it run? (Maybe I'm missing something.) If it can run, it could run 24hrs a day. With x4 movement (200ft per 6 seconds) that'd be 2,000ft per minute, which is just over 22.7mph, though it would slow to half speed around turns. It could go 28.41mph if it took the Run feat. And that's before you gave it magic gear to boost speed. (With how much it cost to make in the first place, it'd be worth spending extra to make it faster.)

The movement rules specifically talk about how you cannot constantly run. You can force the creature to hustle for multiple hours, but you end up doing actual lethal damage to the creature. Granted, a bullete can take a lot of damage, but eventually that damage needs to heal. They could hustle straight for 6 hours, and would literally die of exhaustion after the 7th.

Overland movement is how long term movement is normally handled. The bullete could drag the train for 8 hours without trouble, but after that they go into forced march status. Being a mount they automatically fail their check and take d6 lethal damage every hour past 8. Because they regen 9 hit points (9 hit die creature) from a full nights sleep, they could go for 9 or 10 hours a day without much issue, but bear in mind the moment they take that damage they are fatigued, and their strength drops by 2, and so would their carrying capacity.

If instead you want to increase the creature's speed, just have a custom item that is a Horsehoes of Speed but wearable for a bullete. Considering the cost of raising and training a bullete, the custom item would not be out of the question. +30 movement speed, total 70 movement speed, that is faster than an unenhanced light horse' overland movement speed. Also, items that increase strength or carrying capacity could help them pull a larger train.

Worth noting that the creature's speed would be hampered by a medium or heavy load, but that's inevitable.

Coidzor
2017-01-12, 11:52 AM
I like using effigies of those wheel lions stuck together and connected to a geared axle.

Do they hold onto the axle with their mouths?

AceOfFools
2017-01-12, 12:55 PM
What's the functional difference between "train pulled by magic best" and "wagon pulled by magic beast"?

I may be wrong, but isn't a wagon road way cheaper to build than a train track? Plus you don't have to worry about tight standardization and immediate repair, plus your vehicle has more flexibly in terms of destination and not needing to coordinate so much with other vehicles on the same trek.

Coidzor
2017-01-12, 01:04 PM
What's the functional difference between "train pulled by magic best" and "wagon pulled by magic beast"?

I may be wrong, but isn't a wagon road way cheaper to build than a train track? Plus you don't have to worry about tight standardization and immediate repair, plus your vehicle has more flexibly in terms of destination and not needing to coordinate so much with other vehicles on the same trek.

Tracks make sense for public transit using something dumb but programmable, like Animated Objects which have instructions to follow the track to the next platform, open their doors, wait for a period of time, close its doors, and move on to the next station, ad infinitum.

Alternatively, a designated "line" would make sense for something which requires very specific circumstances to get it to move as the controllers want it to. Like giant vermin following a laid out pheromone trail.

eru001
2017-01-12, 01:12 PM
how about umpteen thousand kobolds shackled to the front car with a shiny object suspended just out of reach?

Jay R
2017-01-12, 02:02 PM
What's the functional difference between "train pulled by magic best" and "wagon pulled by magic beast"?

It's the difference between one wagon load and a hundred wagon loads.

JoeJ
2017-01-12, 02:08 PM
What's the functional difference between "train pulled by magic best" and "wagon pulled by magic beast"?

I may be wrong, but isn't a wagon road way cheaper to build than a train track? Plus you don't have to worry about tight standardization and immediate repair, plus your vehicle has more flexibly in terms of destination and not needing to coordinate so much with other vehicles on the same trek.

A wagon road is cheaper to build, but metal wheels on metal rail can support much more weight, assuming you have something strong enough to pull it.

CharonsHelper
2017-01-12, 02:13 PM
The movement rules specifically talk about how you cannot constantly run. You can force the creature to hustle for multiple hours, but you end up doing actual lethal damage to the creature. Granted, a bullete can take a lot of damage, but eventually that damage needs to heal. They could hustle straight for 6 hours, and would literally die of exhaustion after the 7th.

Except that I was referencing the animated train car idea. As a construct - it could hustle indefinitely.

Mongobear
2017-01-12, 02:29 PM
What about enslaved or even "hired muscle" Giants? Like each train has a team of 6 Stone Giants at the front sort of like a dog sled and they just pull the cars along the rails by sheer brute force.

The enslaved route probably leads to its own issues for the world, but having a "peaceful" tribe of giants living nearby who willingly do this is return for payment would make sense. Like there could be an entire guild of Giant-Propelled Locomotive Experts somewhere that coordinates these things.

Stealth Marmot
2017-01-12, 02:30 PM
Except that I was referencing the animated train car idea. As a construct - it could hustle indefinitely. Constructs are immune to non-lethal damage, so yes, that is technically true.

Lord Torath
2017-01-12, 02:36 PM
Mekillots would work too. Like Bulettes, they can defend themselves. Can't burrow, but aren't as likely to go wild after scenting a halfling, either.

Max_Killjoy
2017-01-12, 02:40 PM
What about enslaved or even "hired muscle" Giants? Like each train has a team of 6 Stone Giants at the front sort of like a dog sled and they just pull the cars along the rails by sheer brute force.

The enslaved route probably leads to its own issues for the world, but having a "peaceful" tribe of giants living nearby who willingly do this is return for payment would make sense. Like there could be an entire guild of Giant-Propelled Locomotive Experts somewhere that coordinates these things.


I am imagining a train pulled by a contraption that amounts to several giants peddling recumbent bikes.

Mongobear
2017-01-12, 03:34 PM
I am imagining a train pulled by a contraption that amounts to several giants peddling recumbent bikes.

I was thinking something closer to a dig sled, where all of the giants are upfront and pulling the train via heavy duty chains/ropes/whatever, or a single set of rails with a wide path on both sides, and each care has a series of long handles extending out from it the Giants hold onto and run along beside the cars.

The 'dog sled' version I think would have to most issues because of obstacles and terrain.

The 'parallel handle bars' is probably the most functional, but depending on the passengers, could cause issues with higher-ups being within smelling range of big burly Giants for extended periods.

Yukitsu
2017-01-12, 03:39 PM
Do they hold onto the axle with their mouths?

While you probably can, it's probably better to weld gears onto your axles so they don't break as easily from the torque. You can get some serious torque if you series your gears correctly.

GloatingSwine
2017-01-12, 05:57 PM
But even then, you could create a custom magic item, similar to an eversmoking bottle, or a decanter of endless water...just have a decanter of endless steam that, like the endless water version, can have it's flow rate controlled more or less at will, regardless of magical skill or training..

An item like that that produced enough steam pressure to do any useful work like moving a locomotive would probably achieve escape velocity when uncorked.

Remember that the pressure inside the boiler is going to be ~250 psi so in order to be able to feed into that environment the pressure coming out of the nozzle of the jar would have to be considerably higher.

The good old fire and water method is still your best bet for getting high pressure steam, (and you still need to build your pressure vessels and that's going to be a seperate set of skills to whatever solution creates your steam and probably your mechanisms so you're still introducing multiple specialisations and will swiftly generate the kind of interconnected society that arises out of an industrial revolution as the Dwarves figure out that they can make good money out of building steam engine boilers and the gnomes make all the fiddly gearing and wizards and artificers compete to make the best fireboxes and water sources and so on). Industrial revolutions happen to you if you have steam power.


I was thinking something closer to a dig sled, where all of the giants are upfront and pulling the train via heavy duty chains/ropes/whatever, or a single set of rails with a wide path on both sides, and each care has a series of long handles extending out from it the Giants hold onto and run along beside the cars.

You functionally triple the amount of width you need per track though, making your cutting and tunnels that much harder to dig.

Also there's the problem of hills. When going downhill the mass of the train is likely to make it outpace the runners. Giant powered rail-rickshaws would put the motive force into the vehicle and avoid that. (Likewise if we're using the Bullette train we should put them in some sort of giant hamster ball contraption in the "locomotive" so that gravity assists them too). That also means you can have redundancy, you simply have one or two more than you need so that you can lift one off the ground and take it off the driveshaft for the beast to rest.

Hawksteel
2017-01-12, 06:09 PM
More importantly, you get to refer to it as a bulette train. Just make sure to train your buletes.

Oh very good. Id been thinking about the bulette myself but that name hadnt occurred to me. Thanks for the continued answers, Im getting a lot of ideas here.

Kami2awa
2017-01-12, 06:38 PM
What about dire versions of regular animals?

Max_Killjoy
2017-01-12, 07:00 PM
What about dire versions of regular animals?

Why not a dire bulette?

Mongobear
2017-01-12, 08:17 PM
You functionally triple the amount of width you need per track though, making your cutting and tunnels that much harder to dig.


That just means you'd have to pay the Dwarven miners that much more for labor!

Also, who is gonna complain about an extra 20ft of tree clear-cutting? Druids can go suck on a lemon!




Also there's the problem of hills. When going downhill the mass of the train is likely to make it outpace the runners. Giant powered rail-rickshaws would put the motive force into the vehicle and avoid that. (Likewise if we're using the Bullette train we should put them in some sort of giant hamster ball contraption in the "locomotive" so that gravity assists them too). That also means you can have redundancy, you simply have one or two more than you need so that you can lift one off the ground and take it off the driveshaft for the beast to rest.


I sort of envision this being closer to a highway system than a true railroad. where whoever is building it/designing it just cuts giant troughs through small hills as needed, and tunnels through mountain ranges.

Remember, this is D&D, magic exists. While it would take an exponentially longer amount of time to manually dig these things, we have things like Disintegrate, Move/Shape Earth, Mattock of the Titans, and Constructs who can work 24/7 without need of rest.

Disintegrate large tunnels through a mountain face for a tunnel, Move/Shape Earth to make a valley through a smaller hill, and Iron Golems built with large digger claws instead of hands to dig the pathways around the clock.

SethoMarkus
2017-01-12, 08:32 PM
What about Earth Elementals "pushing" a train made of stone materials? Like the train in Avatar: LoK?

eru001
2017-01-12, 09:45 PM
summon a fire elemental and a water elemental, (or ice if available in setting) Have them stand on opposite sides of a stirling engine.

DuctTapeKatar
2017-01-12, 10:49 PM
The thing is that if the train is meant to go fast- as in train speeds, then anything dragging it along wouldn't be able to do that. Even if they could, what is stopping the train from running the monster over? You could rig it so that the Bullete or whatever can be lifted up whenever it goes to fast for the monster to keep up, but that seems a bit overly complicated.

Well, if you don't mind the evil route, you could always just strap some poor, pure-hearted orphan girl to a soul-eating chair which powers the train. Bonus points if she is a virgin. And if your main characters are good, then they have some damsel to save! Double points!

But then again, you could also look at the Stirling Engine- it wasn't used that much, but I'm sure you could adapt it into something more efficient with a bit of magical enhancement.

daniel_ream
2017-01-12, 11:16 PM
I prefer low-magic solutions; I'm thinking a harnessed team of Baluchitheria. More than enough strength to pull a lengthy train of cars.

Mechalich
2017-01-12, 11:23 PM
I think that, once you're talking about train speeds or powering an engine you've crossed over into the magitech zone.

In more measured terms of just hauling heavy loads long distances within more typical fantasy capabilities the simplest answer is to find the strongest quadruped (or more limbs if that's an option) you can find, kill it, strip it, and animate it as a skeleton so it can walk 24 hours a day and doesn't need to be fed.

Using those criteria your best option is a Sauropod dinosaur. The Pathfinder stats for a Diplodocus clock in at Strength 40. Such a beast has a max load of 6400 lbs by strength, x24 for being a Colossal quadruped, x5 for dragging a load = 768,000 lbs, or 384 tons.

Alternatively, if you feel like avoiding the necromancy part, the Immense Tortoise (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary4/tortoise.html#tortoise-immense), is also colossal and strength 40, and it has the amusing 'Slow and Steady' trait meaning it's speed is not modified by encumbrance, so you could just stack 75 tons worth of stuff on top of the shell and keep on trucking at 20 ft per round for ~16 hours a day (or drag 384 tons provided you had a suitable harness). Hilariously it's only 11 HD, with a measly +3 Will Save. I could totally see a society of merchant druids taming a bunch of these things using Charm Animal and running an incredibly successful heavy freight concern. I mean, they even have the 'Buoyant' SQ, meaning that river crossings are a breeze.

D+1
2017-01-13, 08:27 PM
Animated dead horses on a treadle. Golems. A captured water elemental and a captured fire elemental in magical bottles separated by a valve - when the valve is opened the contact between the two elementals generates steam. A giant on a reclining pedal-power chair. A paddle-wheel drive gear that is spun around by pointing a Decanter of Endless Water at it. A giant, wound-up rubber band. Animated rails that lift up underneath the train sufficient to let the whole thing run "downhill" by simple gravity. The Machine of Lum the Mad or the Mighty Servant of Leuk-O. Demons.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-13, 09:34 PM
The movement rules specifically talk about how you cannot constantly run. You can force the creature to hustle for multiple hours, but you end up doing actual lethal damage to the creature. Granted, a bullete can take a lot of damage, but eventually that damage needs to heal. They could hustle straight for 6 hours, and would literally die of exhaustion after the 7th.

Overland movement is how long term movement is normally handled. The bullete could drag the train for 8 hours without trouble, but after that they go into forced march status. Being a mount they automatically fail their check and take d6 lethal damage every hour past 8. Because they regen 9 hit points (9 hit die creature) from a full nights sleep, they could go for 9 or 10 hours a day without much issue, but bear in mind the moment they take that damage they are fatigued, and their strength drops by 2, and so would their carrying capacity.

If instead you want to increase the creature's speed, just have a custom item that is a Horsehoes of Speed but wearable for a bullete. Considering the cost of raising and training a bullete, the custom item would not be out of the question. +30 movement speed, total 70 movement speed, that is faster than an unenhanced light horse' overland movement speed. Also, items that increase strength or carrying capacity could help them pull a larger train.

Worth noting that the creature's speed would be hampered by a medium or heavy load, but that's inevitable.

Creature in question was a mindless construct. I -think- I remember a rule about mindless constructs being unable to take the run action but I'm not 100% on that.

MarkVIIIMarc
2017-01-13, 09:57 PM
I support the wagon idea myself. Could even use a wagon train if your animal of choice can really pull enough weight.

But lets think about rail...

We gotta remember 10mph was a really decent speed from the time of the Pharaohs to just before Abe Lincoln. In 1820 if you could move folks from New York to Boston at 5mph you'd be in business I think.

So, you don't need to move high speed. To move 5mph you really barely need steel rails. You can use them old school iron strap on wood rails also. But its still technology.....

OK, I say if you can keep your Brontosaurus type beast from stepping on your rails and requiring Maintenance of Way to come out you can drag a 4 or 5 railcar train about and make some money.

Having this Brontosaurus (old name, I know) haul a 4 to 6 wagon, wagon train not on rails solves that stepping on the rails problem.

Lortime
2017-01-14, 10:29 PM
id use a shadow hulk. if you feed enough the basically pets.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-01-15, 01:56 AM
summon a fire elemental and a water elemental, (or ice if available in setting) Have them stand on opposite sides of a stirling engine.

Stirlings aren't good for vehicles. The power to weight ratio is terrible.

hymer
2017-01-15, 02:28 AM
Stirlings aren't good for vehicles. The power to weight ratio is terrible.

If the track was sufficiently flat it could work. But it'd be good to have something to help get the train going from standing still. So rather impractical, but cool.

Jay R
2017-01-15, 09:39 AM
I may be wrong, but isn't a wagon road way cheaper to build than a train track? Plus you don't have to worry about tight standardization and immediate repair, plus your vehicle has more flexibly in terms of destination and not needing to coordinate so much with other vehicles on the same trek.

Much cheaper. If you are pulling one wagon at a time, slowly, that's probably the way to go. But have you ever driven on a dirt road, and then pulled onto a smooth highway? The difference is huge.

Just paving the roads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads) made a huge difference in Rome's ability to run an empire.

Similarly, smooth rails cut down on friction, which makes a huge difference as the number of wagons you're pulling goes up, and as your speed increases.

There's no point in using rails unless you have large amounts of cargo going to the same place, often.

Storm_Of_Snow
2017-01-16, 04:08 AM
Much cheaper. If you are pulling one wagon at a time, slowly, that's probably the way to go. But have you ever driven on a dirt road, and then pulled onto a smooth highway? The difference is huge.

Just paving the roads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads) made a huge difference in Rome's ability to run an empire.

Similarly, smooth rails cut down on friction, which makes a huge difference as the number of wagons you're pulling goes up, and as your speed increases.

There's no point in using rails unless you have large amounts of cargo going to the same place, often.
And even then, river barges may be better (possibly with canals if the investment in time, labour and money is worthwhile). Rail networks only really start to come into their own if you've got at large masses/volumes moving on every trip, or it needs to be there the same/next day, rather than next week.

Kami2awa
2017-01-16, 07:00 AM
I might be remembering wrong but didn't Djinn in older editions have a huge carrying capacity noted?

Stealth Marmot
2017-01-16, 07:48 AM
And even then, river barges may be better (possibly with canals if the investment in time, labour and money is worthwhile). Rail networks only really start to come into their own if you've got at large masses/volumes moving on every trip, or it needs to be there the same/next day, rather than next week.

Barges are ideal, but unless you have convenient rivers, not practical.

Jay R
2017-01-16, 08:09 AM
Barges are ideal, but unless you have convenient rivers, not practical.

Yup. Unless the rails go directly up and down the river, barges are simply not the answer to the question, "What monster would you use to pull a train between cities?"

ExLibrisMortis
2017-01-16, 08:51 AM
Kraken can move 280' per round in a straight line. As gargantuan quadrupeds with 34 strength, they have a heavy load of 33 600 pounds, but can drag five times that, or even ten times if a floating barge counts as 'favourable'. 336 000 pounds moved at 280' per 6 seconds works out to 336 000 * 280 / 6 = 15 680 000 foot-pounds per second (~28 500 horsepower).

Now, if only kraken weren't so intelligent and evil :smallconfused:.

Zombimode
2017-01-16, 09:22 AM
Creature in question was a mindless construct. I -think- I remember a rule about mindless constructs being unable to take the run action but I'm not 100% on that.

I remember something like that as well... although I can't seem find it in the SRD.

It is kind of implicit, since the Resolution of the Run Action is "undefined" if you don't have a Con score.

Storm_Of_Snow
2017-01-16, 12:18 PM
Barges are ideal, but unless you have convenient rivers, not practical.
Given most settlements would be built on fresh water sources such as rivers, it's fairly practical, with the only real issues being if you need bulk goods from somewhere that there isn't a water source (which may make it worthwhile either diverting a water source into the area, or building a canal/aqueduct to it), you have to go down to the coast, around and up the next river, which might take weeks to go a hundred miles or so across country, or, as I said earlier, it's a regular shipment of a very large mass/volume or it's time dependant, and in those cases it's probably worth building a railway.

All of which is why I said canals may be better - not are better. :smallamused:

As for not being an answer to the "which monster" question, I agree it isn't. Although it may well be a good enough alternative in most situations. :smallwink: And an integrated network would probably be the order of the day - rail for large bulk/fast movement, rivers/canals for medium bulk/slow movement, carts, carriages and horses for "last mile", personal and areas that aren't significant enough to have connections to the rest of the network.

But if you really want my answer to the original question, it would be the undead - either a number of small ones like skeletons, or a massive one like a Bulette or Brontosaurus. No real need to supply them with food stuffs, and can keep going 24/7. Or golems, for the same reasons, but with the benefit of being more acceptable to the populace.

Bohandas
2017-01-16, 12:43 PM
I would use iron golems, made for this specific purpose, in the shape of horses.

That's clever. An iron horse.

Knaight
2017-01-16, 12:54 PM
I'd probably go with something custom - a draft animal, drastically increased in size. A small team of colossal oxen could probably do quite well for instance. Using 3.5 stats the colossal monstrous scorpion isn't a bad option, although from an aesthetic perspective I prefer the centipede.

Deophaun
2017-01-16, 01:03 PM
I'd get rid of the train entirely. Glyph Seal + Hoard Gullet + Trained/Undead Purple Worm = Most horrifying mass transit system evar!

Lord Torath
2017-01-16, 03:07 PM
*snip* Brontosaurus (old name, I know) *snip*Maybe, but it's making a comeback (https://www.fishersci.com/us/en/education-products/publications/headline-discoveries/2015/issue-3/name-game-brontosaurus-vs-apatosaurus.html).

Maglubiyet
2017-01-16, 03:19 PM
I'd get rid of the train entirely. Glyph Seal + Hoard Gullet + Trained/Undead Purple Worm = Most horrifying mass transit system evar!

Good lord, that's terrifying. All aboard!

No thanks, I think I'll walk. It's only 2,000 miles.

Max_Killjoy
2017-01-16, 03:32 PM
Good lord, that's terrifying. All aboard!

No thanks, I think I'll walk. It's only 2,000 miles.

Yeah, I'd walk 1000 miles, and I'd walk 1000 more... just to be the one who's not riding in the gut of an undead purple worm.

Coidzor
2017-01-16, 04:49 PM
Barges are ideal, but unless you have convenient rivers, not practical.

Granted, enslaving giant monsters makes digging canals much easier.

Hawksteel
2017-01-16, 08:49 PM
Id thought of rivers too as an additional transit system. And given its a fantasy world I can reshape the waterways at will so they do connect between cities.

Im certainly enjoying reading all the ideas here. :smallsmile:

Stealth Marmot
2017-01-18, 07:28 AM
Granted, enslaving giant monsters makes digging canals much easier.

Especially if you enslave bulettes.