Gestalt Sorcerer//Bard arcane healer, looking for help

[Mindstab_Thrull]

So rather than have half a dozen threads asking for help with this part or that part of my character, I've decided to make a single thread for the character. First of all, I'm going to write out stuff I've already decided upon. Some of my decisions may be unpopular, but it's the character I want to play. Note that I'm not looking for insane optimization here, just something to fill in certain "gaps". I'll also add a couple rulings my DM has made.

We'll start here. My DM is currently running a Gestalt campaign. The rest of the party is level 13ish, and one of two things will happen: either I will join them around the same level, or I will join them as a first-level character. (Given how the DM runs things, I can see this as being a somewhat reasonable option. He also does things by milestone rather than by experience.) Once one of the other players pointed out the Arcane Disciple feat, I thought it would be fun and amusing to make a healer that had no divine casting whatsoever. As a result, I gravitated to Bard//Sorcerer - Sorcerer over Wizard largely due to all the extra spell slots. Also, there's a Bard currently in the party who has taken the Healing Hymn substitution, and I thought it would be fun to mix that together.

At this point, my character looks roughly like this:
Human Stalwart Sorcerer // Bard (Healing Hymn)
Base scores: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 17

Aiming for:
Mastery of Day and Night (I can get this at Level 3 with Arcane Disciple and Maximize Spell as my Level 1 feats)
Recaster 2 at Level 12 (Recaster 1 will be on the Bard side) to pick up Raise Dead
Recaster 4 at Level 16 to pick up Resurrection

Arcane Disciple is going into Healing on my Sorcerer side.
Recaster is being allowed via the Adaptation paragraph near the end of the class information.
Stalwart Sorcerer is largely because of the spell Healing Hymn out of the Spell Compendium; it's a Necromancy spell that lets me heal a person up to 1d6 per caster level, but I take half of what I heal in damage. Having d6+2+CON for hp helps a lot here. These are my definites.

After that there's a bunch of options. What I want, first and foremost right now, is the ability to cast my Sorcerer spells in armor without having to worry about ASF. I'd looked at Armored Mage but then realized that will only get me the first couple levels of Sorcerer and then I'm through. However, DM ruling: The Battle Caster feat in Complete Arcane allows you to cast in the next level of armor without ASF compared to what you normally can. This means you've learned how to wear the armor. Thus, it grants you proficiency in the armor as well as the ability to cast in it. Is there another useful way to pull this off?

In theory I have five caster levels I can "give up" - two from Sorcerer and three (possibly four?) from Bard - and still be able to cast 9th//6th. My second question is, if something goes wrong, how hard is it for me to regain caster levels in these two classes? If something went haywire and I ended up with Fighter levels or LA-based "levels" (like lycanthropy), can I get the casting back? Is there a class that gives accelerated Sorcerer or Bard casting, even short term? Or is Practiced Spellcaster the closest I can get? Also, Unearthed Arcana is an overall-banned book; if I want something out of it, the default answer is NO.

Thanks for the feedback!
Mindstab Thrull
*looks up at Endrek Sahr hungrily* When's lunch?

[Troacctid]

Arcane Disciple is going into Healing on my Sorcerer side.
Wouldn't it be easier to just take it as an actual domain via the Domain Access variant from Complete Champion? You'd save a feat and you wouldn't need such a high Wisdom. Plus, you'd get the domain-granted ability, which isn't exactly amazing, but it's a nice bonus.


Stalwart Sorcerer is largely because of the spell Healing Hymn out of the Spell Compendium; it's a Necromancy spell that lets me heal a person up to 1d6 per caster level, but I take half of what I heal in damage. Having d6+2+CON for hp helps a lot here. These are my definites.
You can do a neat trick with Stalwart Sorcerer if you have a race with weapon familiarity. For example, say you're a kobold and you can treat dire picks as martial weapons. Choose to gain Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with the dire pick at 1st level. Then become a dragonborn. You lose your weapon familiarity, which means you no longer qualify for either feat, and, as per the rules for dragonborn, they are replaced with any other two feats of your choice. Very nifty.


What I want, first and foremost right now, is the ability to cast my Sorcerer spells in armor without having to worry about ASF. I'd looked at Armored Mage but then realized that will only get me the first couple levels of Sorcerer and then I'm through. However, DM ruling: The Battle Caster feat in Complete Arcane allows you to cast in the next level of armor without ASF compared to what you normally can. This means you've learned how to wear the armor. Thus, it grants you proficiency in the armor as well as the ability to cast in it. Is there another useful way to pull this off?
Easy enough. Take a level of Urban Savant (from Cityscape). And that's it, you're done. No sweat.


Is there a class that gives accelerated Sorcerer or Bard casting, even short term? Or is Practiced Spellcaster the closest I can get?
Sublime Chord, from Complete Arcane. You can give up 9 levels of Bard casting and still get 9th level spells off of both lists.

[Ruethgar]

In addition to the domain access variant for sorcerer, they can also pick unusual spells they have knowledge of as part of their base spells known. So it wouldn't be unreasonable to take the healing domain via ACF and use that as a way to have knowledge or insight into other restorative Magic for your regular spells known.

And I never realized that about Stalwart Sorcerer Dragonborn and Weapon Familiarity, I may just have to use that in a build.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Wouldn't it be easier to just take it as an actual domain via the Domain Access variant from Complete Champion? You'd save a feat and you wouldn't need such a high Wisdom. Plus, you'd get the domain-granted ability, which isn't exactly amazing, but it's a nice bonus.

First, I didn't know about Domain Access at the time. Second, I lose out on 9 spells known and can't take it until 5th level. Gaining the Domain ability is nice but Domains where it's "you cast Domain-type spells at +1 caster level" were never really a big deal for me, even when I did play a Cleric. The last time Cleric I had that cared about the Domain power was a Catfolk Monk//Cleric with Celerity and Travel as her Domains - by L12 she had a speed of 90 ;) That being said, both Sorcerer and Bard run on Charisma, and I have enough room to give them both 19+. For this character, I just don't feel Domain Access gives me enough to make it worthwhile.


You can do a neat trick with Stalwart Sorcerer if you have a race with weapon familiarity. For example, say you're a kobold and you can treat dire picks as martial weapons. Choose to gain Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with the dire pick at 1st level. Then become a dragonborn. You lose your weapon familiarity, which means you no longer qualify for either feat, and, as per the rules for dragonborn, they are replaced with any other two feats of your choice. Very nifty.


Easy enough. Take a level of Urban Savant (from Cityscape). And that's it, you're done. No sweat.

Hm, interesting options. I'll have to take up the dragonborn option with my DM and see what he says. Also Urban Savant I may need to as well because it has two interesting requirements in it:

Feats: Favored (League of Eyes or a similar organization)
Special: Must be a member in good standing of the League of Eyes or similar organizaion


Sublime Chord, from Complete Arcane. You can give up 9 levels of Bard casting and still get 9th level spells off of both lists.

Forgot about this one. Do you still get access to Bard spells on this?


In addition to the domain access variant for sorcerer, they can also pick unusual spells they have knowledge of as part of their base spells known. So it wouldn't be unreasonable to take the healing domain via ACF and use that as a way to have knowledge or insight into other restorative Magic for your regular spells known.

I tried asking my DM about Quentzal (the character in question) taking healing spells and such on his regular class list. I even gave him the reasoning. He said no, it doesn't work that way. So in order to pull that off, I need something like Recaster in order to get spells like Raise Dead. Otherwise, no go.

Rawr! ^_^

Mindstab Thrull
Im in ur brains nommin ur sanities

[Troacctid]

Forgot about this one. Do you still get access to Bard spells on this?
Yup. It's very strong. Easily the #1 best Bard prestige class in the game, not close.


I tried asking my DM about Quentzal (the character in question) taking healing spells and such on his regular class list. I even gave him the reasoning. He said no, it doesn't work that way. So in order to pull that off, I need something like Recaster in order to get spells like Raise Dead. Otherwise, no go.
With a name like Quentzal, I'm almost surprised you're not a Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine). That's another good option for you, BTW.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Eeks, over a month since I last replied here. Woops.

So Urban Savant won't be an option due to lack of appropriate guilds around the lands, according to my DM.
A couple other options I'd looked at:
Armored Mage - will only work as long as your caster level isn't too far away from your Fighter level. I originally thought it would work in general, and it seems to be fine if you plan on going Fighter//Wizard, but as for dipping for it, it's not useful.

Read over the Sublime Chord. Completely forgot about that one. Definitely worth playing if you take Bard at all. I wonder if I can sneak some healing spells on there due to taking it as Bard.. since I get high enough spell slots, maybe for a metamagic version of Cure Critical or something?

[Troacctid]

Urban Savant isn't the only prestige class that gives you armored casting, it's just the easiest and best one. Another option off the top of my head would be Knight Phantom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4). I think there are others too, but I don't have the list handy.

[animewatcha]

You can do a neat trick with Stalwart Sorcerer if you have a race with weapon familiarity. For example, say you're a kobold and you can treat dire picks as martial weapons. Choose to gain Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with the dire pick at 1st level. Then become a dragonborn. You lose your weapon familiarity, which means you no longer qualify for either feat, and, as per the rules for dragonborn, they are replaced with any other two feats of your choice. Very nifty.



How can this be played out via Elf and its racial bonus feats?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would consider the following build

Sorcerer 7 / war weaver 4 / sorcerer 9 // bard 6 / war weaver 1 / bard 4 / sublime chord 9

War weaver is really nice on a healing / buffing focused caster as your buffs are basically auto-massed and such. I would take the healing hymn bard ACF yourself as you can have some serious fun with dumping 5 cure light wounds into your weave to heal 5d8+preform ranksx5 health to all party members as a move action.

A more optimized build would be

sorcerer 6 / war weaver 4 / sorcerer 10 // bard 5 / war weaver 1 / bard 4 / sublime chord 10, but this requires ether going for a wizard chassis rather than a sorcerer chassis (3rd level spells 1 level earlier) or taking heighten and versatile spell-caster.

[Troacctid]

How can this be played out via Elf and its racial bonus feats?
If your race grants you a specific bonus feat, you lose that feat. So when you become a dragonborn, you lose all the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats you got from being an elf. However, unlike with weapon familiarity, this would not cause you to lose the bonus feats from Stalwart Sorcerer, since the weapons in question are still martial weapons for you, so you wouldn't get to replace them with new feats of your choice.

You can use the trick to push feat slots forward on an elf. For example, you can take Weapon Focus (longsword) at level 3, become a dragonborn at level 7, and since you no longer qualify for Weapon Focus (longsword) without your racial weapon proficiency, you can replace it with a feat you might not have otherwise been able to take earlier, such as Exalted Wild Shape or Summon Elemental. But you don't really need to be an elf to do this—just about anyone can do it with the Slayer of Dragons feat, which has a prerequisite of "must not be of the dragonblood subtype," so becoming a dragonborn will cause you to lose it regardless of your previous race.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

I would consider the following build
Sorcerer 7 / war weaver 4 / sorcerer 9 // bard 6 / war weaver 1 / bard 4 / sublime chord 9
War weaver is really nice on a healing / buffing focused caster as your buffs are basically auto-massed and such. I would take the healing hymn bard ACF yourself as you can have some serious fun with dumping 5 cure light wounds into your weave to heal 5d8+preform ranksx5 health to all party members as a move action.
A more optimized build would be
sorcerer 6 / war weaver 4 / sorcerer 10 // bard 5 / war weaver 1 / bard 4 / sublime chord 10, but this requires ether going for a wizard chassis rather than a sorcerer chassis (3rd level spells 1 level earlier) or taking heighten and versatile spell-caster.

I read up on the War Weaver. Looks interesting. I do plan on taking Healing Hymn because that just makes healing broken as finding uncountable copper kettles *cough*. A single CLW gets absolutely silly. There does seem to be some question as whether Healing Hymn does stack with Mastery of Day and Night though, viz:


HEALING HYMN
When you play your healing hymn, your allies can cast curative spells more effectively. Furthermore, everyone around you feels rejuvenated and more fully rested when your hymn becomes a lullaby.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: This benefit replaces the fascinate bardic music ability.
Benefit: If you have 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill, you can use your music or poetics to create an area conducive to healing.
To be affected, an ally must be able to see and hear you perform. The effect lasts as long as you continue performing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally who casts any conjuration (healing) spell gains a +1 sacred (if you're good or neutral) or profane (if you're evil) bonus on the roll for each rank you have in the Perform skill. This ability has no effect on spells cast from wands, scrolls, or other magic items.
In addition, if you use this ability for 1 full minute before you and your allies retire for the night, everyone in the group heals naturally as if he had completed 24 hours of bed rest (thus recovering twice his character level in hitpoints). If the music is interrupted, the magic of the song is lost.
Either use of healing hymn counts as one daily use of your bardic music ability. This is a spell-like ability.

MASTERY OF DAY AND NIGHT
You have learned to calculate the precise locations of Irian and Mabar at any given time, and to use that knowledge to enhance your manipulation of positive and negative energy.
Prerequisite: Knowledge (the planes) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks, Maximize Spell.
Benefit: You can spontaneously apply the effect of the Maximize Spell metamagic feat to any cure or inflict spell you cast. Doing this has no effect on the spell's level or casting time.

MAXIMIZE SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can cast spells to maximum effect.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. A maximized spell deals maximum damage, cures the maximum number of hit points, affects the maximum number of targets, etc., as appropriate. For example, a maximized fireball deals 6 points of damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 60 points of damage at 10th caster level). Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. An empowered, maximized fireball cast by a 15th-level wizard deals points of damage equal to 60 plus one half of 10d6.
(Emphasis mine)

First of all, Maximize Spell doesn't say anything about rolls still applying - for example, it doesn't say that "you take the maximum result for each die," only that the "effects.. are maximized." Thus it's easy to assume that, simply, no dice are rolled. Since MoDaN allows you to Maximize your cure/inflict spells, and when you do you don't roll dice, and the Hymn says it gives a bonus to "the roll", it's an acceptable assumption that you can't apply Healing Hymn to a Mastery'ed spell. I then had one friend try to argue that "you still roll dice for CLW but every die comes up 8." I guess it depends on the DM but I'd assume that Mastery and Hymn are a nonbo.

Second, what do you mean in this context by using a Wizard "chassis"? What am I missing? I generally find I like the Sorcerer class over the Wizard class simply due to the flavour being Wizard = "I am a mighty spellcaster!" and Sorcerer = "I can do all sorts of other things too!", Battle Sorcerer being my favourite simply due to being able to cast as a Sorcerer in armor like a Bard can.

Tankies 4 teh feedbackz0rz
Mindstab Thrull
Nomming ur sanities since 1864 BSE (Before the Sarpadian Empires)

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho consider "Touch of Healing" Reserve Feat.
Bard qualifies for it as soon as he has access to 2nd lvl spells (and picks cure moderate wounds). Now you can heal up to half of max-HP at-will (with enough time). This helps to save up resources (spell slots/day) to some degree. Especially when you have a few meat shields in group that tend to eat much damage. Sublime Chord helps to get the most of the feat as Bard.

If you pick ToH for Bard and go the mentioned route, you could do the healing part with just Bard. This would leave Sorcerer more freedom to build something not relying on heal.

But sure, you could still go the Arcane Disciple route on Sorcerer and take Touch of Healing on the Sorcerer as well. This would give the Bard more freedom to build.

Or you could even exchange either one of them with something completely else. Consider your possibilities and choose wisely ;)