Polymorph question

[Doomwhispo]

Is it possible for a character lvl7 to cast polymorph on another character lvl 5 and change him in to a dinosaur triceratops ?

Isn't that a bit op compared to the druïd who can shapeshift in to it only starting at lvl10?
Even casting it on yourself as a lvl 7 you get a former that the druïd can only get 3 levels later...
Am I kissing something?

[Little boy]

Polymorph is very OP. Turning a fellow party member into a giant ape so long as you keep concentration is really good. They OP part is they don't lose hp when they go back. A sorcerer can keep someone in a different form for a really long time. You can also stack non concentration spells into the new form. I once had enlarge (from a potion) , flaming (armor of agathy), mage armored giant ape stomping around

[Ninja_Prawn]

Am I kissing something?

I'm... not sure I want to know what you're kissing... :smalleek:

Some notes: yes, a triceratops is better in a fight than most 5th-level PCs. Yes, A druid can't Wildshape into a triceratops until level 15 (though it should be noted that Polymorph is on the druid spell list).

But, Polymorph has some significant disadvantages. It requires concentration. It costs you a 4th level spell slot, which is a major resource for 7th-level characters. Its duration is shorter than Wildshape and the druid gets a number of features that make their Wildshape better (such as Primal Strike and Beast Spells). Most importantly, it overwrites your mental statistics. You're not a 5th level fighter in the body of a triceratops: you're just a triceratops. A big, frightened herbivore that doesn't understand why a bunch of orcs are shooting at it.

[Shaofoo]

It highly depends on the DM, triceratops might not even exist in the world the DM has made or something the character itself shouldn't know.

Also the biggest thing is that you are using your Concentration to keep up with the spell while Wild Shape doesn't have that restriction. A group could target you and eliminat

[MrStabby]

Polymorph is a good spell. It is a great spell - although not one of the major ones I have had trouble with balancing.

In the scenario you describe the caster needs to expend their highest level spell slot (always a major resource), they need to use their concentration (which eliminates a lot of the other potential spells) and they need to take care not to get hurt (whilst at the same time they become more of a target).

On the other hand a moon druid isn't spending a spell slot to do this, isn't using their action and concentration isn't going to lose the effect. The moon druid forms also maintain their mental stats. Dinosaurs become quite prone to failing saves if you target their mental stats.

[some guy]

First a correction, a moon druid can only shift into a triceratops at lvl 15 (crx3), but the druid can stay in that form for 7 hours, twice per short rest. And that same druid could cast polymorph 8 levels earlier.
That's the main thing I wouldn't care about the op-ness of polymorph when compared to wildshape. Druids get both.

It's still very powerful, probably op, but mainly when compared with non-druid class abilities.

[Shaofoo]

Polymorph is very OP. Turning a fellow party member into a giant ape so long as you keep concentration is really good. They OP part is they don't lose hp when they go back. A sorcerer can keep someone in a different form for a really long time. You can also stack non concentration spells into the new form. I once had enlarge (from a potion) , flaming (armor of agathy), mage armored giant ape stomping around

If they are reduced to 0 HP any extra damage is transferred over to the new form, they can still die if they take too much damage.

Also as I have said before any smart person might want to attack the frail squishy wizard instead of the big brute and kill two birds with one stone.

[Little boy]

If they are reduced to 0 HP any extra damage is transferred over to the new form, they can still die if they take too much damage.

Also as I have said before any smart person might want to attack the frail squishy wizard instead of the big brute and kill two birds with one stone.

What I mean is that giant ape is 150 free hp mostly. As for getting to the squishy wizard, that isn't as easy as it sounds. Especially if a sorcer decided to twin cast it. Sorcerer just makes for one crazy polymorpher

[JellyPooga]

Most importantly, it overwrites your mental statistics. You're not a 5th level fighter in the body of a triceratops: you're just a triceratops. A big, frightened herbivore that doesn't understand why a bunch of orcs are shooting at it.

This. You're not quite just a herbivore, though; you have the alignment and personality of a 5th level Fighter (for what that's worth), just with the intellect and understanding of a Triceratops. It's not quite "GM controls your character" time, but you probably shouldn't be using any more complex tactics than "charge" and there's a debate on whether you can understand your companions if they talk to you.

It's a squiffy spell, all told. How much of the original persists and how much of the new form do you get? Class features and personality persist, yes, but if you're Polymorphed into a flying creature, for example, do you know how to fly? If so, when did you learn that particular skill? (3ed had the Fly skill for precisely this purpose, incidentally). If the new form comes with inherent knowledge, how much is that overwriting the original mind? You've clearly lost comprehension ability (Int reduction) and the ability to interact effectively (probable Cha reduction)...is that because you're just the animal now? It's a tricky sort of question.

[Doomwhispo]

An interesting question. So are you saying a pc polymorphed would run away?
It does say you retain you personality doesn't that mean that the character also retains the awareness of who he is and thus can fight for his group?

[JellyPooga]

An interesting question. So are you saying a pc polymorphed would run away?
It does say you retain you personality doesn't that mean that the character also retains the awareness of who he is and thus can fight for his group?

As I say, it's a tricky question with no solid answer; how much of your "personality" is dependent on your mental faculties? How would it change if you suddenly had the mental capacity and instincts of a beast? If you adopt the skills necessary to fly or hunt as an animal, do you also adopt their drives and motivations? For instance, a (hypothetical) Herbivore that gets turned into a Carnivore...does he crave meat? Does his "personality" have a "veto" on the instincts of his new form? Or does he chase and chow down on the nice, juicy young lamb frolicking in front of him?

You implicitly retain your personality, but at the same time your mental Ability Scores are replaced (not "modified" or "lowered"...replaced); that's verging on, if not actually, a contradiction.

[Ninja_Prawn]

An interesting question. So are you saying a pc polymorphed would run away?
It does say you retain you personality doesn't that mean that the character also retains the awareness of who he is and thus can fight for his group?

Potentially. If you polymorphed into a rat, for example, you'd definitely be running away.

To me, 'personality' means personality traits like 'friendly', 'gregarious', 'paranoid', 'lazy'. The polymorphed creature retains just enough of who they were before to remind people that they're a polymorphed person. It doesn't imply that the polymorphed creature retains specific thoughts, memories or objectives.

Polymorph is supposed to be a curse, not a blessing.

[RickAllison]

Potentially. If you polymorphed into a rat, for example, you'd definitely be running away.

To me, 'personality' means personality traits like 'friendly', 'gregarious', 'paranoid', 'lazy'. The polymorphed creature retains just enough of who they were before to remind people that they're a polymorphed person. It doesn't imply that the polymorphed creature retains specific thoughts, memories or objectives.

Polymorph is supposed to be a curse, not a blessing.

Not quite. The modern Polymorph spell is a combining of two older spells (one of which was Baleful Polymorph) intended to be respectively a blessing and a curse. The modern spell combining the two is supposed to be both a blessing when used on your allies (hence why it allows for higher CR beasts) and a curse on opponents (turning them into rabbits, for examples).

When my PC is polymorphed, I take the core personality of my character and put it through the lens of being an animal. A Paladin who protects the weak will do so whether he is human, dog, or elephant. As a rat, he will be battling urges between scurrying into the shadows and protecting them; this probably results in something like hiding up the person's sleeve or in a pocket, a place where he can be safe in the darkness and also able to reach out and bite those who would hurt the meek. A cowardly Bard, however, would be running away no matter how brave the form he is in would. If it is a CE Barbarian who cares for no one but his longtime Fighter friend and only tolerates the others, he will defend his friend, maybe follow his orders like a loyal dog, but as soon as the Fighter goes down he would be only concerned with defending his friend, while him disappearing may lead to the barbarian dog abandoning the rest.

Animals have personality, and it isn't hard to imagine how an animal with that personality would react to different stimuli.

[Doomwhispo]

So back to the example at hand. Character gets polymorphed in a triceratops with intellect 2

What does he do? Should de dm take control of him? Should try triceratops attack friend and foe alike ? I'm sure if the DM does not take control the triceratops, it will run pass all the tanking monsters and go for the squishy evil mage..

[Ninja_Prawn]

So back to the example at hand. Character gets polymorphed in a triceratops with intellect 2

What does he do? Should de dm take control of him? Should try triceratops attack friend and foe alike ? I'm sure if the DM does not take control the triceratops, it will run pass all the tanking monsters and go for the squishy evil mage..

It depends. If you've got a player like RickAllison, who keeps to the spirit of the spell, it's fine to let the player keep control. Otherwise, it may be necessary to NPC the character for the duration.

I imagine that whether or not the character can tell friend from foe depends on exactly what they're turned into. Something like a dog or elephant probably would have an instinct for who its friends are. Something more feral might not.

[BiPolar]

So back to the example at hand. Character gets polymorphed in a triceratops with intellect 2

What does he do? Should de dm take control of him? Should try triceratops attack friend and foe alike ? I'm sure if the DM does not take control the triceratops, it will run pass all the tanking monsters and go for the squishy evil mage..

Because the creature is retaining the original personality of your PC, it would take a pretty mean spirited DM to take control.

The only case I'd see where they would is if the player is controlling their Polymorphed character in exactly the same way. Have some fun with it. You're still you, but now you're an intellect 2 triceratops. You still want to hurt the bad guys, but everything else play like an intellect 2 triceratops. Someone on your own team hurts you, feel free to hurt them back. You finish the battle and there's some tasty vegetation? Go eat it. But odds are the Triceratops is not going to be able to parse threat difference. The biggest threat will be the closest threat. Or make a random die roll if multiple are within range but not yet engaged with it.

[Little boy]

So back to the example at hand. Character gets polymorphed in a triceratops with intellect 2

What does he do? Should de dm take control of him? Should try triceratops attack friend and foe alike ? I'm sure if the DM does not take control the triceratops, it will run pass all the tanking monsters and go for the squishy evil mage..

Considering the transmutation wizard gets a class gets a free polymorph self ability, this interpretation is really bad. It legit feels like someone just wanted to **** their players

[Breashios]

And there is a whole other matter - roleplaying. In our group the sorcerer learned the spell and we did the giant ape thing. After the characters the sorcerer used the spell on experienced the loss of self and strange perceptions of their new form, they steadfastly refused to be polymorphed again. It worked great in the way it was used, but after those characters refused to be the subject of it again, the other characters likewise rejected the use on them thereafter. At his next level advance the sorcerer replaced that spell.

[BiPolar]

And there is a whole other matter - roleplaying. In our group the sorcerer learned the spell and we did the giant ape thing. After the characters the sorcerer used the spell on experienced the loss of self and strange perceptions of their new form, they steadfastly refused to be polymorphed again. It worked great in the way it was used, but after those characters refused to be the subject of it again, the other characters likewise rejected the use on them thereafter. At his next level advance the sorcerer replaced that spell.

That's a very cool way to play it.

[Vogonjeltz]

there's a debate on whether you can understand your companions if they talk to you.

If the new form has the language being used in their game statistics, then yes. If not, then no. Per polymorph, the statistics are completely replaced with the limited exceptions of alignment and personality.

So, if they become a Triceratops they have no languages, but they'd still be their original alignment instead of unaligned, and the character presumably retains control of the character (keeping their personality) albeit unable to understand exactly what anyone around them is saying.

If they're polymorphed into a Pteranodon or some kind of bird, they'd be able to fly because those creatures have a fly speed.

[BillyBobShorton]

I never get the whole "having to expend such-&-such soell slot"... like, what are you saving the important spells for? A big fight? Well, isn't that good time to turn someone into a triceritops? Or might you need that whole extra d6 on your fireball spell? High level spells are MEANT to be used, not hoarded; that's why you get them... to USE.

[Jerrykhor]

I never get the whole "having to expend such-&-such soell slot"... like, what are you saving the important spells for? A big fight? Well, isn't that good time to turn someone into a triceritops? Or might you need that whole extra d6 on your fireball spell? High level spells are MEANT to be used, not hoarded; that's why you get them... to USE.

So much this. If you have to spend your lv 4 slot on something, Polymorph would be a no-brainer.