[Feat] With spellbook in hand...

[Peregrine]

Anyone ever noticed that the classic image of the mage casting a spell, spellbook in hand as he reads from the pages, never happens in D&D? Quite apart from the fact that wizards (should) keep their spellbooks locked away and secured more zealously than the paranoid father of a naive half-nymph teenage daughter, they just can't.

So how's this sound?

Book Casting [General]
Prerequisite: Ability to prepare arcane spells from a spellbook
Benefit: You can cast spells spontaneously from your spellbook. To do so, you must have an empty spell slot of the required level (i.e. one in which you could have prepared a spell, but did not).

Casting the spell requires reading from the spellbook, which must be held in one hand or laid open in front of you. Casting the spell takes a full-round action on top of the spell's normal casting time (including modifications for applying metamagic to a spontaneous spell). The spell slot required for the spell is used up by the casting.

This feat does not affect the time required to prepare spells; you can only use this feat to cast a spell immediately.
Normal: You may leave spell slots empty when preparing your spells, but it takes 15 minutes or more to prepare spells in those slots, during which you must have the same focus required for preparing spells.

And some questions: Is this feat any good? Can you cast spells without the book if you have Spell Mastery? Should I in fact let this feat also reduce the time required to prepare spells?

[Joltz]

Mt friend's stepdad played the older editions and says mages cast like that (I think). Anyway, critique of the feat.

It gives wizards more versatility. They already have tons.

"Oh, I never need my low level spell slots in combat so I'll leave them all open for whatever utilities I need."

I already figured out exactly why casting like that doesn't work (in my campaigns). The spells are written differently in spellbooks than on scrolls. The spellbook has something like a blueprint that's fixed to the page. Scrolls are scribed as a finished product with magically volatile ink. Anyway, that's just my take on it.

[Duke Malagigi]

I think this is a good feat. Come to think of it this should be a built in class feature for wizards. On the other hand I do have some ideas on how memorization and spontaneous wizardry can coexist. I'll post them later.

[Quietus]

I'd make it build off of Spell Mastery. This feat alone is rather powerful, but adding the prerequisite of Spell Mastery to it does several things :

A) Increases the investment required for the feat, which helps be a balancing factor
B) Reduces the direct power of the feat if you tie them together - only let this work for spells which you have Mastery for.
C) Immediately and clearly defines the interaction of Mastery and this feat.

Now doing this, a Wizard could use Spell Mastery and this feat and become a "Sorceror Lite", in a way - much longer casting times, but spontaneity nonetheless. Prepare the spells you know you'll need, leave lots of slots open. But then they've poured all their feats into Spell Mastery, which directly reduces their power through metamagic and item creation feats which they HAVEN'T selected.

[Peregrine]

I thought of that. But then I realised that, from a certain point of view, Spell Mastery and Book Casting are rather at odds. Spell Mastery reduces your reliance on your spellbook.

If you look at wizardly casting as a trio of book, prepare, cast, then Spell Mastery knocks out 'book', while Book Casting knocks out 'prepare'. (Hey, if you could use both together, you'd be much like a sorcerer, who has just 'cast'. I'm seeing a class variant growing out of this... though I understand that's where the sorcerer began anyway, in 2e...)

So. One question I ought to have asked, but neglected, was: What prerequisites should it have? Spell Mastery is one option. Others?

[DracoDei]

Keep the absence of prerequisites...
And for those of you who say it is too powerful... there is nothing that says you can't prepare some spell slots early in the day, and others as needed throughout the day... in fact I think it is specifically allowed (although I may be mis-remembering) I just recall that the time to prepare is 60 minutes times the fraction of your total spell levels you are preparing with a minimium of 15 minutes.

[Triaxx]

My sorceror wants to cast 'Finger of Death' on you. I like the idea, but wouldn't simply taking levels in sorceror do almost the same thing?

[Drakron]

Oh no, it does not ... it taking away the limited known spell list disadvantage and giving the "cast what you know" sorcerer advantage and give it to the wizard ... win-win for the wizard that loses one of his disadvantages (having to prepare in advance, unable to switch his known spells) for the price of ONE feat.

This feat makes sorcerer utterly useless, it allows a horrible overpowerfull feat that gives wizard the same capabilities of a sorcerer without significant price to pay.

Its one of those things "it looks nice" but how about why the cleric and druid class lack the same abilities (and they just need to pray for their spells) or if its does not intrude in another class (it does, it makes the sorcerer class useless).

If you want to balance, make it restricted to low level spells (from lv 0 to lv 3), make it only once per day and give it some level restricting (lv 10+).

[Peregrine]

Oh no, it does not ... it taking away the limited known spell list disadvantage and giving the "cast what you know" sorcerer advantage and give it to the wizard ... win-win for the wizard that loses one of his disadvantages (having to prepare in advance, unable to switch his known spells) for the price of ONE feat.

Okay, let me make this even more general and explicit: Hey! I have this nice fluff idea for wizards to cast spells straight from their books; now help me pick restrictions, prerequisites and other limitations to make it work okay!


This feat makes sorcerer utterly useless, it allows a horrible overpowerfull feat that gives wizard the same capabilities of a sorcerer without significant price to pay.

I accept no responsibility for the uselessness of the sorcerer compared to the wizard. And I don't believe this feat is at all 'horribly overpowerful'. Its only inherent flaw, as far as I can see, is making sorcerers look worse. If you're in a party with a wizard and a sorcerer, this feat will make the sorcerer cry. Harder than normal. If not, the wizard won't be much better off than before, especially if the feat has well-chosen limitations.


Its one of those things "it looks nice" but how about why the cleric and druid class lack the same abilities (and they just need to pray for their spells)

Why indeed? That could be worked out too.


If you want to balance, make it restricted to low level spells (from lv 0 to lv 3), make it only once per day and give it some level restricting (lv 10+).

Now that would be a profound waste of a feat, as well as totally ruining the flavour. (Suddenly only really powerful wizards can ever do it -- kind of the opposite to what I imagine when I think of a mage who reads from his book to work spells -- and then only for their weak spells?) The flavour is paramount here; give it XP costs, have it leave the wizard fatigued, make it only available to a variant wizard who can't cast normally, limit it to certain spells, but don't take the fluff away!

[Drakron]

Not really, it allows the wizard to cast utilitarian spells (knock, charm, etc ...) that are usually low level and the ones that are also usually taking a spell slot "just in case", also you are forgetting they are exchanging a feat for money (since with that feat they no longer have to buy scrolls or wands to cover utilitarian spells) ... I simply do not accept a feat that render a entire class obsolete.

[nerulean]

The problem with this feat is not to do with rendering sorcerers useless, it's to do with wizards being far too cheaply allowed to do something they weren't meant to. Wizards are the utility arcane casters. They have a spell for every occasion but are balanced, not just with sorcerers but with the rest of the game as a whole, by having to guess what those occasions are going to be beforehand and not being able to quickly change their decisions when it turns out they were wrong. If they didn't prepare Knock this morning and they're racing out of a dungeon as it collapses, then it's up to the rogue to save the party.

So, one feat, nowhere near enough. What you could consider is having a series of feats that reduces the time it takes to prepare a spell into an empty slot in stages, say down to ten minutes, then to five, then to the full round action your feat implies. That then requires the wizard to take two effectively useless feats before they get to the one that actually makes the difference in combat and time-pressured situations. It's an inelegant fix, though.

[Fizban]

All I say is that if you're going to let wizards cast spontaneously out of books you need to let sorcerers cast spells they don't know out of books.

Most of the details are really campaign specific, it depends on how powerful casters are in your campaign and how this will affect them.

Now, I had this idea quite a while back where I was thinking somewhere around a minute casting time for a sorcerer to use an identified but unlearned spell from a spell book. The idea was to make it useful only out of combat. I would suggest this for the wizard, except that they can already prepare spells in 15 minutes, so it becomes a fairly fine distinction since most of the time combat is initiated at the PC's whim, and they can take 15 minutes to prepare if they can take one.

[Peregrine]

Okay, I still can't help feeling that people are still too focused on the sorcerer issue. So let's look at two possible lines of limitations:

1) It's a really bad idea, only for use when desperate. It takes a long time? It leaves you out of it for a while (dazed, stunned, fatigued...)? It costs XP?

2) It's not actually for wizards. I just want to have spellcasters who can cast from books. It may be that it just won't work under a Vancian system, especially one where we already have wizards and sorcerers, but how about making this a wizard variant? Or better yet, a sorcerer variant? A sorcerer-like caster whose spells known are all recorded in a book, and cast by reading from the book. Can spend feats to learn more spells, maybe.

[DracoDei]

The following is off the top of my head/brainstorming...

There is a thread somewhere around here about the dangers of having to have your spell-book out to cast something... that is good reference for the risk of having this critical item being out in plain sight in the middle of an adventure (including my suggestion that a wizard faced with having to do that would not have a single spell book, but rather a separate "pamphlet" for each spell). It can be found as part of a larger work here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43874).


Maybe make it a minute added instead of a full round... 10 times as long, not quick enough to do it in a real hurry, but still keeps the fluff and is an improvement over the 15 minute thing... actually one thing to consider is that one spell can be close to 1/4 of a wizards spell levels per day at very low levels... so while 10th would spoil it... caster level 3 as a prerequisite might not be so bad... or make it 5 minutes added to base casting time at level 1, decreasing automatically to +4 minutes at caster level 2, +3 minutes at caster level 4 and then leveling out at +1 minute at caster level 6...
Make them count as flat-footed while doing this? (makes the chance of a called shot to the book even nastier in potentially combative situations).
MAYBE say they can't do it with their highest spell level spells (has to be one spell level back from that)?

Pamphlet

[DracoDei]

As for Divine casters consider giving them a parallel feat that lets them pray on the fly... same amount of time added, no spell-book required... now... clerical/druid spells are even more application specific (since often times they are undoing or taking preemptive action against a specific negative effect) and they get all the spells automatically so this is a problem... also if I remember correctly clerics at least technically have a specific hour of the day they have to spend in prayer to regain their expended spell casting... depending on how one reads it exactly this might be a preventative measure against the supreme flexibility that having a wizards 15 minute option combined with an unlimited spell list... So perhaps make it two feats? One that allows the later preparation of some or all spell slots provided they spent the correct hour in prayer, and a second one (with the first as a prerequisite) that mirrors the feat we are discussing for wizards?

[Peregrine]

As for Divine casters consider giving them a parallel feat that lets them pray on the fly... same amount of time added, no spell-book required... now... clerical/druid spells are even more application specific (since often times they are undoing or taking preemptive action against a specific negative effect) and they get all the spells automatically so this is a problem...

I wouldn't give it straight out as written to clerics and druids, that's for sure. (If only because, as you point out, they don't have the same prepare-later option wizards do.) Maybe they need to spend a minute in prayer, leaving them unable to act in combat (and any attack or other disruption spoils it). It doesn't perfectly address the matter of gods making things difficult for their followers, but it helps.

In fact, this could explain why exactly divine casters use spell preparation at all. Try this: divine servants traditionally could pray for their god's divine intervention (in the form of magic) at any time. This didn't do a lot for their usefulness in an emergency, or their survivability. So, long centuries ago, the clergy started taking hints from wizards (or the gods got together and decided to do it this way), and preparing spells ahead of time as part of their daily prayers. It took off, and now everyone does it that way. (Favoured souls may be a more recent innovation, overcoming the limitations that clerics and druids put on themselves.)

[NullAshton]

I don't see it all that bad.

A full-round action on TOP of the standard casting time. That means that for a standard action spell, you gotta read from the spellbook for an entire ROUND, while people are free to shoot at you and stab you and the like forcing a concentration check. Then you still gotta finish casting the spell with another standard action. In two rounds, you've only cast ONE spell, one which I might add is easily interruptible.

[DracoDei]

Yeah, it is the outside of combat, but-still-in-a-bit-of-a-rush situations that it really comes down to mostly...

[Reinboom]

I would make the time cost 1 move action per spell level. Mind, that, in order to do this many spells do take up more than 1 page...
For example, a level 1 or level 0 spell would involve:
Spend move action; cast spell as a standard action (increasing it to a full round effectively)
level 2:
Spend 2 move actions; (full round)
cast it next round
Level 3:
Spend 3 move actions: (Full round + move action)
Cast it during next round, but no moving then.
--
Level 5: (2 full rounds + move action)
--
Level 9: (4 full rounds + move action)


This stops you from being able to cast the more powerful utilitarian spells on the fly, such as teleport, while still keeping in flavor reasons. It also means it won't be as seaming powerful in combat situations, while still can be handy.

[Elana]

But his preparation is casting the spells, only leaving a short trigger to use in combat.

Strictly by RAW a wizard can already cast a spell from his book.
It just takes 15 minutes and so is utterly useless in combat.

But I bet a lot of NPC wizards never bother to prepare spells in the morning and just use their books when they need a spell.

(That you need 15 minutes to cast a spell, doesn't matter in your laboratory)

Now a feat that reduces the time needed to one round is greatly overpowered.
But one that reduces the time to a minute might be okay.
(Sure most wizards need less than a hour in the morning to precast spells now too)

But it takes long enough that it's not unbalance combat encounters and still gives some flavor benefit.

[Khanderas]

Just wondering, whats the difference here compared to the Wizard casting from a scroll ? He can still cast not-often used spells prepped on scrolls.
This feat would only move the cost from gold/xp to a spellslot.

[Fizban]

Okay, I still can't help feeling that people are still too focused on the sorcerer issue. So let's look at two possible lines of limitations:

1) It's a really bad idea, only for use when desperate. It takes a long time? It leaves you out of it for a while (dazed, stunned, fatigued...)? It costs XP?

2) It's not actually for wizards. I just want to have spellcasters who can cast from books. It may be that it just won't work under a Vancian system, especially one where we already have wizards and sorcerers, but how about making this a wizard variant? Or better yet, a sorcerer variant? A sorcerer-like caster whose spells known are all recorded in a book, and cast by reading from the book. Can spend feats to learn more spells, maybe.
*Lightbulb*

You could use the Erudite method of unique spells per day, the book being required as a focus for casting. The change from xp to gp is balanced by the vulnerability of the focus (take a look at sundering rules, yikes). It doesn't exactly solve the problem, but it does give you a casting class that casts straight out of the book.

Here's yet another take: any spellcaster can cast a spell off their class list from a writing such as a spellbook, taking a full round action per level of the spell, and only if it's at least one level below the highest they can cast.

Anyway, just pick whichever one you like and run with it. As long as it stops combat use and doesn't advantage spontaneous or prepared over the other it works.

[RyanM]

Okay, I've got a maybe good limitation for ya. The feat makes it so that casting out of a book basically turns the spellbook into a scrollcase. By casting a spell directly out of the book, you destroy the relevant page(s), and have a 50% chance of destroying a page from an adjacent spell (the first and/or last page of the spell may have a different spell written on the other side).

[firepup]

One fire arrow and the book is cooked unless it is specificly protected against physical/fire/acid/destructive force of choice. If they want to spend all their money so they are like a slow-cast sorcerer who is dependant on having one hand free, I say go for it. one creature gets through and eats it, or it gets knocked out of their hand, well, there goes all those spell slots. :smallamused:

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, I've got a maybe good limitation for ya. The feat makes it so that casting out of a book basically turns the spellbook into a scrollcase. By casting a spell directly out of the book, you destroy the relevant page(s), and have a 50% chance of destroying a page from an adjacent spell (the first and/or last page of the spell may have a different spell written on the other side).

That sounds familiar - which edition was it from? Adds some paperwork, though - you have to track page order.

Actually, though, if you want to get the iconic wizard image (spellbook in hand) just make that the spellbook (with the spell being cast) a required focus for all Wizard spells, such that it must be in hand. Makes the wizard a tad more vulnerable at higher levels (which is a good thing). Spell Mastery makes the spellbook not required (for those spells). Assign the spellbook a hardness and HP (say, Hardness 5, 10 HP cover, repaired free with a sewing kit and some woodworking tools, and each additional point of damage beyond that destroys a page (and ruins a spell); Blessed Books have double the HP, or even more).

Alternately, make extended magic ritual rules such that a spellcaster can cast a spell not within their grasp by taking a LOT longer (order of days) if they have the spell; something like....

Overcasting:
With enough time and energy, a spellcaster can cast a spell from their class list that is beyond them (they don't have a sufficiently high spell slot for it), but it has some tricky requirements:
Spell Slot requirements:
When casting a spell for which you don't have a spell slot of the appropriet level, you can instead substitute two spell slots of one level lower (or four of two levels lower, or eight of three levels lower, and so on, or some combination of the above; so a 9th level Wizard could cast Limited Wish using ); these slots must be unprepared (if a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, Paladin, or Ranger, or other prepared caster) or unused (if a Bard, Sorcerer, or other spontaneous caster).
Spellbook:
You must have a spellbook with the spell open and in front of you the entire time of the casting.
Research:
Before the casting can begin, the caster must research a modified version of the spell; this takes one week per spell level, and requires two spellcraft checks (see Focus and Material Components, below).
Focus:
If there is an expensive focus component to the spell, you instead need a focus worth ten times that amount, or a minimum of 100 gp per spell level. If there is an inexpensive focus or no focus in the spell when cast normally, then you need a focus worth at least 1000 gp per spell level. Regardless, the specifically required focus requires a Spellcraft check, DC 11 + 2* the spell level to research, and is specific to both the spell and the caster (two different casters must research the components seperately). This roll is made in secret by the DM, and the player can take neither 10 nor 20; the player does not know the result. If the player does not make the spellcraft DC, then on completion of the casting, the caster takes 1d6 damage per spell level. This damage does not ruin the spell, even if it kills the caster, but it does cause a mishap (see below) at the completion of the casting.
Material Components:
If there is an expensive material component to the spell, you instead need a similar material component worth at least ten times that amount. If there is an inexpensive material component (or no material component) in the spell, then you need a material component worth at least 100 gp per spell level. Regardless, the required material component requires a Spellcraft check, DC 11 + 2* the spell level to research, and is specific to both the spell and the caster (two different casters must research the components seperately). This roll is made in secret by the DM, and the player can take neither 10 nor 20; the player does not know the result. If the player does not make the spellcraft DC, then on completion of the casting, the caster takes 1d6 damage per spell level. This damage does not ruin the spell, even if it kills the caster, but it does cause a mishap (see below) at the completion of the casting.
XP components: All XP costs are doubled, to a minimum of 100 xp per spell level.
Casting Time: The casting time is one day per spell level of the spell above what the spellcaster could normally cast (so a 5th level Wizard, able to cast 3rd level spells, trying to manage Limited Wish, a 7th level spell, would require 4 days). Once per day of casting, the spellcaster must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + spell level) or take 1d6 points of ability drain to the caster's primary spellcasting ability score. This affects even creatures normally immune to such drain, and cannot be overcome while the spell is being cast and for 1 hour thereafter (but can be healed normally afterwards; a spellcaster immune to the ability drain recovers the lost ability points automatically 1 hour after the casting is completed). If at any time during the casting, the caster's primary spellcasting ability score is below that required to cast the spell (10+spell level) the caster suffers a mishap at the end of the casting (see below). This casting is continuous - the spellcaster stands there, actively casting, for the entire duration.
Caster Level Check: At the end of the casting, the spellcaster must make a caster level check, DC equal to the minimum normal spellcasting level of the spell. If it fails, the caster suffers a mishap (see below).
Mishap: If a mishap occurs, the spell does something very bad for the caster appropriate to the spell, as selected by the DM; for example, a Conjouration(Calling) or Conjouration(Summoning) spell might Call or Summon a creature hostile to the caster; a Conjouration[Teleportation] spell might leave the caster in a location hostile to the caster's health; a Flesh to Stone spell might target the caster; a Polymorph Any Object spell might instead act as Baelful Polymorph on the caster; a Meteor Swarm might hit the caster's foot, and so on.

So Fred, the Evil 14th level Wizard with an Intelligence score of 25, finds a spellbook with a Gate spell in it, and decides cast Gate to Call a Balor to aid in his conquest of the world. The DM makes two Spellcraft checks on his behalf (DC 11 + 2*spell level, so 29) to research the spell, and Fred spends nine weeks researching the spell. Fred then goes out and buys his focus (9,000 gp) and material (900 gp) components. Fred only has three 7th level spell slots, but he can also spend a few 6th level spell slots on the spell - with The two 6th level spell slots replace a 7th level spell slot, the four effectively 7th level spell slots replace two 8th level spell slots, and the two effectively 8th level spell slots make the required 9th level spell slot for the casting of Gate. Fred can cast 7th level spells normally, so the casting itself takes him two days (9-7=2). This requires that Fred make two DC 19 Fortitude saves. He fails 1, and takes 1d6 Intelligence Drain. He rolls a 4, leaving him with an Intelligence score of 21 for the duration - which is enough. At the end of the second day, Fred makes a caster level check, DC 17 - he only needs a three, and he rolls a five - no problem. At the end of the casting, Fred spends his 2,000 xp, finds that he failed one of the spellcraft checks, and takes 9d6 damage. He survives that, but finds himself injured and standing right next to a very angry Planetar....