hadouken Paladin?

[BB944]

Hey guys, I don't post much but read a lot.

I just got done reading about the 2 round Dragon encounter, and realized that i, as well, have been allowing my assassin rouge to abuse the heck out of sneak attack, (he was doing it every attack and using the assassinate ability if the creature had not attacked rather than had a turn... I will deal with that next game session) and began to think about my hadouken Paladin in the party. Now i am not jesting when i stated that at times he has done well over 100 damage in a single turn. And it has made it very difficult to send monsters against them when he can 2 shot many CR10+ creatures.

So here is the setup. He is a GWF Level 10 Paladin OaV. The Maul he has is a made up Magical item that is a take off of the Mace in the Starter kit. It is a +1 Maul that has a Bonus Action Command word that Sets it ablaze with Holy Fire, Doing and extra 2D6 Radiant Damage. (signature weapon... probably my first mistake)

So when he Crits (20 Str) he uses his Divine Smite and he usually has Hunter's Mark up.

that's 2D6+6 for the Maul, then 2D6 for the Radiant Damage. Then add the 4D8 for the Divine Smite, and the additional 1D6 for Hunters Mark. Now if I read correctly a Crit = Double Dice Damage. Really? So he hits for 4D6 Bludgeon + 4D6+8D8 Radiant + 2D6 Piercing? totaling 10D6+8D8+5 .... and he re-rolls all 1s and 2s.... then attacks again.

Tell me I'm doing something wrong.

[jaappleton]

Doesn't seem like you're doing anything wrong.

And as a Vengeance Paladin, he gets the spells Haste for another attack, and Hold Person (which grants auto-crits).

He's a Paladin. Of VENGEANCE. Killing his enemies quickly is kinda his job.

[DivisibleByZero]

[When he crits] he hits for 4D6 Bludgeon + 4D6+8D8 Radiant + 2D6 Piercing? totaling 10D6+8D8+5 .... and he re-rolls all 1s and 2s.... then attacks again.

Tell me I'm doing something wrong.

RAI is that only the weapon's damage (ie: the initial 2d6/4d6 bludgeoning damage) get to reroll 1s and 2s.
Other than that, it's right.
A Pally who crits and smites on it (as he almost always should) is a beast.
Incidentally, 10d6 + 8d8 +6 = ~77, and in order to do that he has to spend a slot on HM, then crit, then spend another slot on DS. It's ridiculously resource intensive and only happens 5% of the time, and that's only if HM is ALWAYS running. If it's not, it's less. If he wants to guarantee that crit with HP, then it's even more resource intensive. So it certainly should be devastating.

[Callin]

Right to me. Along with his Divine Channel Advantage vs 1 creature for a minute he should be wreaking!

[Dr.Samurai]

Lol... Oh, the rogue has been misunderstanding his abilities and using them incorrectly. No wonder he's so strong! Surely the same must apply to the beast of a paladin!!!

No, sorry. That's just a paladin. He can do that kind of stuff. :smallbiggrin:

[BB944]

Heh... hence the title :)

Thanks for the clarification. Which leads me to one more question.

What do i do regarding resistances. I may be misreading, but all (that i have seen) monsters that have resistance lose it once the weapon is magical. Just want to be sure that I can't ... you know nerf that attack a little.

Also, any suggestions other than a horde of flying archers to challenge the Party that has a Glass Cannon that can 1 shot the BBEG before he can act the second time (he took alert)?

[DivisibleByZero]

You can add to or remove features from monsters as you see fit.
You're the DM.
I routinely change monsters' stats, because the players know exactly what to expect from pretty much everything if you don't.

[jaappleton]

Heh... hence the title :)

Thanks for the clarification. Which leads me to one more question.

What do i do regarding resistances. I may be misreading, but all (that i have seen) monsters that have resistance lose it once the weapon is magical. Just want to be sure that I can't ... you know nerf that attack a little.

Also, any suggestions other than a horde of flying archers to challenge the Party that has a Glass Cannon that can 1 shot the BBEG before he can act the second time (he took alert)?

Honestly? A fun little exercise is to build some enemy to shut down each party member. So there's a Vengeance Paladin, built to deal damage, yes? Ok. Here's a dual wielding Eldritch Knight / Bladesinger. Multiple attacks, Bladesong for higher AC, plus the Shield spell. Go ahead and try to hit him. With AC of like 28 damn near all the time, have fun with that.

Or have him fight in an Anti-Magic field against a Bear Totem Barbarian. Divine magic is STILL magic and can be nullified.

[jaappleton]

Lol... Oh, the rogue has been misunderstanding his abilities and using them incorrectly. No wonder he's so strong! Surely the same must apply to the beast of a paladin!!!

No, sorry. That's just a paladin. He can do that kind of stuff. :smallbiggrin:

I'll be honest, I find the Assassin Rogue to be incredibly overrated. You get one guaranteed crit when you fulfill very specific conditions. One. And yes, by being a Rogue, that attack HURTS.

But that's it, until lv17, but most groups don't get that high and many enemies you'd face at that level can often utilize their Legendary abilities to nullify it.

So for most of your career as a Rogue, you get that one swing and then... you're a base Rogue. Not a Thief, or a Trickster, or a Swashbuckler, or Mastermind, or an Inquisitive. BASE Rogue.

The features between lv3 and lv17 the Assassin gets are a damn joke. They take far too long to utilize to be properly useful. Simply being a Changeling is far superior than the features the class gets.

[RickAllison]

I'll be honest, I find the Assassin Rogue to be incredibly overrated. You get one guaranteed crit when you fulfill very specific conditions. One. And yes, by being a Rogue, that attack HURTS.

But that's it, until lv17, but most groups don't get that high and many enemies you'd face at that level can often utilize their Legendary abilities to nullify it.

So for most of your career as a Rogue, you get that one swing and then... you're a base Rogue. Not a Thief, or a Trickster, or a Swashbuckler, or Mastermind, or an Inquisitive. BASE Rogue.

The features between lv3 and lv17 the Assassin gets are a damn joke. They take far too long to utilize to be properly useful. Simply being a Changeling is far superior than the features the class gets.

Assassin is an awesome archetype to stick on NPCs, though!

[DivisibleByZero]

I'll be honest, I find the Assassin Rogue to be incredibly overrated.

I couldn't agree more. Assassin is utter garbage, and for some reason everyone friggin' loves it. I just don't understand why.
Thief, on the other hand, is far, far better than most people seem to think it is.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'll be honest, I find the Assassin Rogue to be incredibly overrated. You get one guaranteed crit when you fulfill very specific conditions. One. And yes, by being a Rogue, that attack HURTS.

But that's it, until lv17, but most groups don't get that high and many enemies you'd face at that level can often utilize their Legendary abilities to nullify it.

So for most of your career as a Rogue, you get that one swing and then... you're a base Rogue. Not a Thief, or a Trickster, or a Swashbuckler, or Mastermind, or an Inquisitive. BASE Rogue.

The features between lv3 and lv17 the Assassin gets are a damn joke. They take far too long to utilize to be properly useful. Simply being a Changeling is far superior than the features the class gets.
I know! There's this half-orc character I have a concept for I'd love to play and that should be an assassin, but I just can't justify taking that archetype.

@DivisibleByZero: You don't understand people being attracted to the auto-crit and the fact that they probably think their enemies are Surprised more often than they actually are?

[RickAllison]

I couldn't agree more. Assassin is utter garbage, and for some reason everyone friggin' loves it. I just don't understand why.
Thief, on the other hand, is far, far better than most people seem to think it is.

"What can you do, Assassin?"
"When I surprise an opponent, I can inflict terrible critical blows!"
"And if you don't? Or if it extends beyond that first attack?"
"I'm still a rogue? But at high levels, I get bonuses to infiltration and become even stronger! What about you?"
"I climb up walls, have increased jumping abilities, and can use a bonus action to use items, pickpockets or use other Sleight of Hand, and pick locks."
"That's a cute set of abilities *looks smug*."
"Oh that's just at level 3! Later I can become even better at Sneaking by getting at-will advantage with a reduction in speed, use any magic items, and ultimately take two turns even when I don't have surprise! So it is like I have your main ability with lots of others..."
"*Stabs Thief in the kidney*"

[CaptainSarathai]

Yeah, Paladins are masters of spike damage. Rogues too, really, if they Crit on a SA.
Rogues are a little more reliable, because they can SA every turn and not spend resources. The Pally has to expend spell slots, doesn't have many, and so tends to hold on and wait for Crits, which can be hard to come by even WITH advantage.

Just like Fighters, Barbarians, and Warlocks own the sustained damage category, with either tons of attacks, Rage, or Eldritch Blast and Hex all day.

Wizards and Sorcerers tend to be your NOVA guys, with high controlled damage, a few times per day.

Everyone else is support somehow. Healing, skill-monkeying, etc.

When you start multiclassing you can see a lot more. This Paladin does 77 damage on a Crit. At what level? Because I have seen a Warlock2, Sorcerer4 throw out 4d10+4d6+16 ~62 damage every turn, all day. Just burning slots to fuel Metamagic and cast Hex, then tossing around Agonizing Eldritch Blasts.

[Erys]

hadouken Paladin?

Sounds Down, Right, Fierce.

/rimshot

[Crusher]

It really comes down to the DM. With a permissive DM, an Assassin/Paladin can do a ludicrous amount of damage but so can a lot of classes. And that's an argument for playing what you want. Even a sub-par combination can at least do respectable damage with a permissive DM.

With a non-permissive DM, you can still do a respectable amount of damage, and be fun to RP. I'm actually playing a Vengeance Paladin 5/Assassin Rogue 3 in a campaign, and I think he's landed a surprise auto-crit smite exactly once in his career (and it was glorious). But he's been great fun to play from an RP standpoint (LN holy slayer of Waukeen, god of trade. He doesn't care about undead or demons, I mean, they're bad and all, but ANYONE WHO BREAKS A CONTRACT MUST BE SMITTEN WITH HOLY WRATH! Like if Judge Dredd worked for the SEC) and he actually spends more time as an archer than anything else (the party already has a barbarian and another paladin for front line fighting. He's zealous but not stupid) and its way, way easier to get surprise attacks at range than in melee.

Its a shame to not get to double smites, but landing two longbow hits (which you should be able to land with advantage) plus Hunter's Mark works out to 4d8 + 8d6 + 8 (18 DEX) = 54 damage, which isn't overwhelming but is respectable and all it costs is a 1st level spell slot which you've still got up and running for future rounds when he moves in with his daggers to finish off whoever is left.

[jaappleton]

"What can you do, Assassin?"
"When I surprise an opponent, I can inflict terrible critical blows!"
"And if you don't? Or if it extends beyond that first attack?"
"I'm still a rogue? But at high levels, I get bonuses to infiltration and become even stronger! What about you?"
"I climb up walls, have increased jumping abilities, and can use a bonus action to use items, pickpockets or use other Sleight of Hand, and pick locks."
"That's a cute set of abilities *looks smug*."
"Oh that's just at level 3! Later I can become even better at Sneaking by getting at-will advantage with a reduction in speed, use any magic items, and ultimately take two turns even when I don't have surprise! So it is like I have your main ability with lots of others..."
"*Stabs Thief in the kidney*"

But is the Thief surprised? :smalltongue:

[RickAllison]

But is the Thief surprised? :smalltongue:

Nope, he is used to it :smallbiggrin: