Kitsune Paladin - Legal Build? (PEACH)

[Levism84]

I am looking to see if this build for a kitsune paladin is rules legal or if there are some things I would have to change. I am also looking to answer a few question about playing this sort of a character and how different mechanics would interact. I would appreciate some feedback and to know what potential pitfalls or roleplaying opportunities you see for a kitsune paladin that I may have missed. Thanks in advance.

Race: Kitsune with multilingual and superior shapeshifter alternate racial traits.

Class: Paladin with Oath of the People's Council (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-the-people-s-council) archetype.

Favored Class Bonus (FCB): 1/6 of a Magical Tail feat.

Variant Multi-Class (VMC): Sorcerer with Maestro bloodline.

Feats: Fox Shape (1st; racial bonus feat), Magical Tail (1st), Magical Tail (5th), Magical Tail (6th; FCB bonus feat), Magical Tail (9th), Lingering Performance (11th; VMC bonus bloodline feat), Magical Tail (12th; FCB bonus feat), Magical Tail (13th), Magical Tail (17th), Magical Tail (18th; FCB bonus feat).

Class Abilities: aura of courage, aura of faith, aura of good, aura of resolve, aura of righteousness, aura of truth, beguiling voice, champion of the people, channel positive energy, detect evil, divine bond (weapon), divine grace, divine health, fascinate, lay on hands, mercies, perfect voice, spells, stirring monologue (dirge of doom, fascinate, frightening tune, inspire competence +2 to +6, inspire courage +1 to +4, inspire greatness, mass suggestion, suggestion).

Purpose: The purpose of this build is to create a character that can remain in fox form the majority of the time, perhaps as the spiritual guide and protector of another character in the party or important NPC. As a pseudo-familiar, the character would encourage his party to follow the winding paths of goodness and order without holding them to the self-imposed standards of a paladin.

Role:

"I speak eloquently, but I carry a big sword!"

The character fills the role of primary combatant and buffer/debuffer with secondary healing and support abilities. In combat, the build has the tankiness of a typical paladin (good BAB, strong saves, swift action self healing, immunities, divine bond with a weapon) but can keep armor and weapons concealed until they take their natural or human form. As buffer/debuffer goes, this build has access to an array of spell-like and supernatural abilities keyed off of Charisma (stirring monologue, magical tail spell-like abilities, beguiling voice, fascinate, inspire) that can be used to improve allies or hinder foes. While some of these abilities cannot be used in fox form, this restriction goes away by casting tongues (gained at 10th level) or with perfect voice (gained at 15th level). The build also provides healing support with a sprinkling of paladin spells, lay on hands, mercies, and channel positive energy.

The Code of Conduct: Some paladins make the mistake of imposing their code upon others while others sidestep their code when they "don't know" what their party members are doing. This build focuses on the subtle encouragement or "redirection" of others. The character wants to encourage others to do the right thing while giving them the tools to do it. Likewise, this paladin build specializes in redirecting the behaviors of others with charms, suggestions, and even direct domination. Provided these tools are not used for chaotic or evil ends and care is taken to ensure the safety of anyone controlled or manipulated by the paladin, this should not interfere with the paladin's code of conduct. Regardless, playing a paladin with this build requires a great deal of communication between the player and the DM, especially to make sure the DM is actually on-board with this build and will not be unreasonable when it comes to navigating a paladin's code of conduct.

Example: "Oh, I see you are in fox form, which is a type of lying... you lose your paladin abilities." As a kitsune, your natural form, specific human form, and specific fox form are all representations of your true self. When you are walking around in human or fox form, yes, people will generally assume you are a human or a fox. After all, you gain bonuses on Disguise checks to pass yourself off as such. However, if this is done to not draw unnecessary attention to yourself (or your party) and you either remain silent or admit you are not human (or magical talking fox), you should not be considered to be in violation of your code of conduct.

Using Bluff or Disguise to further attempt to pass yourself off as a human or fox could get you into trouble depending on the intention and situation. Avoid these muddy waters by not investing in either skill. Realistic Likeness, on the other hand, will quickly get you into trouble because taking the form of another specific individual is deceptive and goes against the honesty tenets of the paladin's code.

The Oath of the People's Council code of conduct kicker ("Know the laws and do not exempt authorities from the application of the law.") is also a great motivator and focal point for this build. You make sure the status is quo and, in the event it begins to become "totally not quo", you can step in with a light redirect (charm person, suggestion, emotionally stirring speech) or a hard "do the right thing" (dominate person, sword to the throat).

QUESTIONS

Does the perfect voice ability gained from the VMC sorcerer's maestro bloodline allow the character to speak and be understood in fox form? Would this allow the character to use stirring monologue, beguiling voice, and other language-dependent abilities gained from the character's class and variant multi-class while in fox form?

Does the fascinate ability gained from the VMC sorcerer's maestro bloodline benefit from the Lingering Performance feat?

Does the fascinate ability gained from the VMC sorcerer's maestro bloodline allow the character to use the suggestion or mass suggestion option of stirring monologue without having to expend daily uses of performance? The wording of the text for the suggestion and mass suggestion performance only states the target must be fascinated but requires a standard action to issue the suggestion(s). Because the fascinate ability gained from VMC specifically states it acts like the performance ability of the same name, I was wondering if it would interact with other performance abilities in the same way.

[Knight Magenta]

Caveat: I can't find the Oath of the People's Council archetype.
I feel that, especially at lower levels, you will have a hard time contributing to combat. You've traded away smite and all your feats for tails and some bard abilities that scale slowly. You have no space to even take power attack, so your damage will be anemic. To really benefit from paladin self-healing you also want to take the Fey Foundling feat.

If you are not interested in hitting things with a pointy stick you are better off just playing a kitsune bard. Instead of spending feats on magical tails, just flavor your growing bard powers as granting you extra tails.

[Sayt]

Caveat: I can't find the Oath of the People's Council archetype.


Oath of the People's Council replaces smite evil with Bardic music. Its from one of the newer player companions. Its on the PFSRD, but might nor bed linked on the paladin pushed yet.

[Geddy2112]

I really like the idea, and I am glad I read this because I did not know there was a paladin chassis with bardic inspiration built in. Thank you!I would strongly suggest the vulpine pounce feat for this build, so you can full round charge and shift on the charge. I am not sure magical tail is the best use of feats, even for your build.

As for the first question, I am not sure. On one hand, it says "...can make yourself understood to any creature able to understand language. You can speak to, and understand the speech of, any creature that understands at least one spoken language" . But polymorph spells say "While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon" and fox shape works as beast shape II.

There is a specific spell in the game called beastspeak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beastspeak) that does this, but it is not something you would be able to get without a wand/scroll and UMD. Tongues will not work, as it says "Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don't speak" and I would assume this means it goes both ways.

For the second and third questions, the fascinate ability acts like the performance but is not a bardic performance and does not stack. They are separate abilities with separate pools.

As for the paladin code, any DM who says it is lying or dishonorable to be in one of your natural forms should be hit with a book. Lots of lawful and LG characters poly-morph, bluff, and all kinds of other stuff. That "not lying" part is part of the garbage that is the stock paladin code. I suggest going with a deity specific code-virtually all of them are better than the stock.You could also make your own-you are a guiding voice of the people, not just Joe Blow paladin 37. Acting with honor should be more about keeping your word, not as much lying. One good example is Torag's code, which specifically requires paladins to lie (or withhold information) to protect order and goodness. Certainly don't reneg on a promise, and if you give your word keep it, but sometimes the lawful and good thing to do is lie.

I don't think it is wrong to use mind control or magic to help guide NPCs, but I would strongly suggest not doing so to your party members. If everyone is on board IC/OOC with a lawful/good member of the party(don't bring this character to the group of CE murderhobos), then it is largely assumed you will be the good guys/heroes/not total scumbags or at least shoot in that general direction. THis is not just about being a paladin, it is that a generally lawful and good group does not tend to tolerate people who are chaotic and evil. If one player suddenly breaks from the group dynamic and goes murderhobo then sure, but otherwise using magic or even threatening force against another PC without a damn good reason is initiating PvP. That said, if they start killing innocent people in front of you, that is their instigating PvP and you have every right to kill them for being a jerk.

I like the part where you show by example and gently guide people towards law and goodness-be the angel on the shoulder, don't put a gun to their heads. Force and coercion don't make real change. If you dominate/use magic them, they are not actually being good, you are just making them good. The minute they are free they can go right back to murderhobodom, and might be even more resentful and evil because your the LG jerk who took away their freedom(you thought they were chaotic before...). Same thing with force-as soon as you can no longer threaten them, they can go back to the old ways. Likewise, you just threatened to KILL them, so you might find your throat cut in your sleep. If you live by example and encourage the side of good and order(and show why it is right) then you can make meaningful change, and you get to keep your fox head on your shoulders.

[Levism84]

Thank you for the guidance. I have edited the original post to add a link to the archetype. I guess I was unaware of how new it actually was. Hopefully this helps people see the mechanics I am looking at and how best to use them.

@Magenta: When I was looking at the combat aspect of the build, I suppose I was relying too much on good base attack bonus and divine bond to dish out damage as needed. You are right that giving up smite evil and combat feats leaves the build wanting mechanically for both attack and damage. This build was never meant to be combat optimized, attempting to get every point to damage it possibly could squeeze into its chassis. That being said, it really does lack much of anything remotely combat oriented beyond the aforementioned BAB and bond. One option would be to ditch the Magical Tail feats (both the feats from character progression and from the favored class bonus) and instead take +1 hit point or +1 skill rank per level and gain 5 feats to help make the paladin more robust/versatile and to improve combat efficiency.

@Geddy: For the first question, I wasn't really looking at spellcasting. Rather, I was looking at language-dependent abilities which require you to be understood by the other person. I believe it is fairly clear there is no spellcasting for a kitsune in fox form, period (except, of course, for psychic spellcasting). However, the other abilities from the class are extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities that rely on the ability to communicate with and be understood by the other creature. That was why I was asking if tongues or perfect voice would allow for those features to work. The part of tongues quote about tongues not working with creatures who don't speak is a little muddy, I agree, but I think because your type doesn't change and you have a language and can speak normally, tongues could allow you to speak and be understood even if you were in another form that can vocalize (even if those vocalizations aren't "speech"). That part is probably up to the DM.

For the second and third questions, the fascination effect from VMC is identical to the bard's ability with the only difference being it lasts 1 round/level (no concentration?), so I have a difficult time seeing it as different in relation to other effects that key off of it. Perhaps a middle-ground would be to allow the paladin to expend 1 round of performance as a standard action to suggestion any creature(s) fascinated by this ability.

For the code, I do like the idea of going with a deity specific interpretation for the code of conduct in regards to how the paladin acts. Taking a step away from mind-control, as stated above when talking about the lack of combat options, perhaps it would be better to exchange the Magical Tail feats for some ranks in Diplomacy and a few other feats that make persuasion less about magical compulsion and more like finding common ground.

[Geddy2112]

@Geddy: For the first question, I wasn't really looking at spellcasting. Rather, I was looking at language-dependent abilities which require you to be understood by the other person. I believe it is fairly clear there is no spellcasting for a kitsune in fox form, period (except, of course, for psychic spellcasting). However, the other abilities from the class are extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities that rely on the ability to communicate with and be understood by the other creature. That was why I was asking if tongues or perfect voice would allow for those features to work. The part of tongues quote about tongues not working with creatures who don't speak is a little muddy, I agree, but I think because your type doesn't change and you have a language and can speak normally, tongues could allow you to speak and be understood even if you were in another form that can vocalize (even if those vocalizations aren't "speech"). That part is probably up to the DM.
I was not talking about spellcasting either, just that polymorph effects indirectly mention forms that can speak such as dragons. Likewise, druids need the feat natural speech to speak in a beast shape, indicating that they normally cannot speak in these forms(including the part where animals, and foxes in this case, don't speak). The feat natural spell also indicates that druids don't "speak" when using spells in beast shape, they just make animal noises and that works for the somatic

For the second and third questions, the fascination effect from VMC is identical to the bard's ability with the only difference being it lasts 1 round/level (no concentration?), so I have a difficult time seeing it as different in relation to other effects that key off of it. Perhaps a middle-ground would be to allow the paladin to expend 1 round of performance as a standard action to suggestion any creature(s) fascinated by this ability.[/QUOTE]
It is identical in the mechanics of how it works, not where it comes from. It is not a bardic performance, it just works like the fascinate bardic performance.


For the code, I do like the idea of going with a deity specific interpretation for the code of conduct in regards to how the paladin acts. Taking a step away from mind-control, as stated above when talking about the lack of combat options, perhaps it would be better to exchange the Magical Tail feats for some ranks in Diplomacy and a few other feats that make persuasion less about magical compulsion and more like finding common ground.
I like this idea a lot. I think Abadar's paladin code is best for you-it has specific clauses about rooting out corrupt officials and about leading people to opportunity, but making them put in the elbow grease. Likewise, with a good diplomacy and the right cause(which you should have as a paladin) it should be easy to convince others to do the right thing, instead of forcing them.

[Mordaedil]

So you'd be an 8-tailed magical fox? This looks amazingly fun to play.

[Serafina]

As always when building for Magical Tail, you have to ask yourself "is it really worth all those feats?"
Because honestly, in a great many cases, it just isn't.
Granted, you do get the benefit of getting spells a Paladin does not otherwise get, and them being SLAs. Still, consider whether you could actually go for some other build.

Speaking of which - are you sure you want to go for Sorcerer VMC?
It seems that you're mostly interested in Perfect Voice. This way, you only get that at level 15 - and you also get the very much redundant Fascinate-ability. Consider that you could instead take Skill Focus (Perform), Eldritch Heritage, and Improved Eldritch Heritage at level 7, 9 and 11 - this gets you Perfect Voice four levels earlier, in the long run it does save you feats, and furthermore having Skill Focus (Perform) isn't even a bad deal.


Also, sadly I have to be honest here:
RAW, your build does not work until level 11 at the earliest. You are simply unable to use your bardic performance until then, since you'll only be able to speak "fox" for all intents and purposes in fox form. This is a huge drawback that's pretty hard to circumvent, and basically means that you'll have to be out of fox-form both for spellcasting and actually using your performance that you traded smite evil away for.
Even at level 11, you still can't cast spells in fox form unless you take silent and still spell, which is too much of a resource sink for a paladin.

Your idea CAN be done - a fox that is surprisingly tough, aids companions via buffs, and can dish out melee damage.
But it can't be done like this. You really ought to switch to a different class at this point.

How important is it to you that you use Bardic Performance?
Obviously, you could just go with a Bard. Skald also works well, albeit with somewhat different performances. Clerics and Mediums can also gain Bardic Performances via archetypes (Evangelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/evangelist) and Storyteller (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/medium/archetypes/paizo-llc---medium-archetypes/storyteller-medium-archetype)).
And of course - you can always just grab it via Variant Multiclass.

How do you deal with your spellcasting?
Remember that Fox Shape is a polymorph effect, and that you can provide neither somatic, verbal or material components. The last can be bypassed via eschew materials (or if it's divine casting, a divine symbol shaped marking on your animal form). Taking the Dead Oracle Curse provides permanent Silent Spell, though you may of course not want that. You might argue that your fox form being natural is enough to provide somatic components, but RAW it doesn't work so you either cast spells that don't have one, or use Still Spell.

Alternatively, you can just switch to Psychic Casting.
The Mesmerist is pretty Bard-like in a lot of ways, though obviously not good at healing like a Paladin.
The Medium isn't that great a class IMO, but it has psychic casting and plenty of support abilities, including healing - you can even grab Bardic Performance if you want to.
The Spiritualist is also pretty support-y, and you can just internalize your Phantom with the right archetype if you don't want it. It also gets healing, and can cast off Charisma with the right archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/spiritualist/archetypes/paizo-llc---spiritualist-archetypes/fractured-mind-spiritualist-archetype).
The ID Rager (http://archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Bloodrager%20Id%20 Rager) Bloodrager gets Psychic Casting as well

Now most of these classes are as-tough as a Paladin in terms of HP. But honestly, the difference isn't that big - 2 hp/level at most, which you can compensate for with favored class bonus or a feat.
You can always dip into Paladin for Charisma to Saves if you want to, too. It works well enough.
Not having full BAB is admittedly a larger drawback, but it's not necessarily that huge.



So, alternate build suggestion:
Paladin 2/Id Rager Bloodrager X.
Bard Variant Multiclass nets you Inspire Courage only four levels behind, a Versatile Performance, and some other nice stuff.
Take the Hatred emotional focus (just ignore the name, it doesn't have to affect your RP in any way). Skill Focus (Perception)is great, Hatred Target is very similar to Smite Evil, Hateful Aura is great for a frontliner (dish out some damage when you get hit), and later you get sneak attack and boosts your allies attack.
For feats, you already qualify for Eldritch Heritage (Draconic). Take it for the claws, because you're going for a natural weapon build. Alternatively, you might qualify for Aspect of the Beast (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Aspect%20of%20the%20Beas t) (RAW you don't quite, but you already have the shapechanger subtype).
And as the final touch: Use Tailblades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/tailblade). It's quite a bit cheesy - but this way, you actually get a benefit out of Magical Tail! Namely +1 attack per feat. Alternatively, this might be achieved via Human Guise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/human-guise), Racial Heritage (Kobold) and Tail Terror (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/tail-terror-combat-kobold), but that'd be really feat-intense and doesn't really work here. If this cheese doesn't work - well, the build still does, you'll just be much less effective.
That'd put your feats at Power Attack (1st), Eldritch Heritage (Draconic) (5th), Swift Kitsune Shapechanger (9th), Vulpine Pounce (13th) and Magical Tail OR Lingering Performance (17th). You'd gain Fox Shape from alternate racial traits, and three magical Tails from favored class bonus at 8th, 14th and 20th level. Alternatively, you could swap out Eldritch Heritage for a Magical Tail, especially if you can use the tailblade trick. You also gain some less-relevant bonus feats, I'd suggest Combat Casting and Raging Concentration first. Alternatively, it's very probable (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ti64?Ninetailed-scion) that you can use the Nine-Tailed Scion trait to instead take Magical Tail (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/nine-tailed-scion-kitsune) in place of these!

If we take this build at 14th level, your bloodrage compensates for your Strength drop from shapechange and being a Kitsune. You'd have a 1D3 bite, two 1D3 claws, and three 1D3 tail attacks. You should have great saves from being part-paladin, and if you drop both Hatred Target and Smite Evil you hit like a train. Your HP are good, though your defenses will be a bit lacking (due to effectively wearing no real armor, unless you get some glamered fox-sized armor) and your self-heal is minimal.
You can't buff allies that well with spells, though the bloodrager list has some stuff. But you do get Bardic Performance, so that's good to have.

You might want to consider some Paladin-Archetypes, at least those that trade out Smite Evil. Sacred Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/sacred-shield) would allow you 1/day to project an aura that halves damage to allies, Oath of Loyalty (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-loyalty) instead provides bonus AC and saves to one ally. Oath of the Seeker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-the-seeker) is instead more offensive, allowing you to put Smite Evil on a new target when the old one goes down.

[CasualViking]

for your "Foxy Companion" build, consider using Mesmerist?

[Levism84]

@Serafina: Jeebus, thank you. Pointing me to Human Guise alone is going to give me a lot to think about. I do like the idea of playing around with the classes, since I went with paladin due to my love of its Cha-focused nature for all its fun stuff (saves, spells, etc).

I had looked at mesmerist because a lot of what it does syncs up well with a hidden caster build, especially the Vizier archetype.

Back to the drawing board.